Ostentatio

Changes to favor gain from sacrificing

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This kinda sounds like straight ass

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Are you Removing healing by sacing with this change?

 

Can you make Non libila favor suck less?

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So if I understnad this right the first cast after a Sac will be a bit slower since I dont get the Favor I need (exapt I sac so mutch that I get enough+huge pool) but all sequnz cast shuld be faster since I have a huge increas in favor gain after this? hm dont sound to bad. If its possible maybe just start with the split after you would have gain 50 Favor or 60 Favor waht is a stong brakepoint for most enchantment spells.

But it realy depends on your numbers if  I just need 3-5 ticks to gain full favor after a huge 800 or so favor sac its a big improvment.

I am a bit worry about PvP and making Vessel-Gems a bit less importent (is this good or bad?). The suggestion to increes the Pool drain out of the Influance of a Alter sounds realy solid to prevent this.
I will lean back and see how it´s works out befor I will juge. At lest it sounds like I can now finaly go for a Fo Monk gamestile more efficient then befor :P

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I think this could work well if paired up with a previous suggestion of mine:

 

 

 

Basically allow priests to "eat" gems and by doing so they add to their max favor pool.

 

Say you can eat 3x ql gems as your faith so if you have 50 faith you can eat 150ql total gem quality at add 150 favor to your existing 50 making that priest be able to cast 200 favor worth of spells.

 

A priest at 100 faitg could eat 300 ql total gems and cap out at 400 favor ready to cast with.

 

Obviously as you use up the gem boosted part of the favor they could lose ql so it will mean the players has to eat more gems to go back up the cap but make sure the decay is not that severe so i guess the number could be tweaked around losing 5-10 fav cap /cast and 1-3 per cast if sleep bonus is on.

 

 

Another solution would be to give statuettes more meaning ... like make their ql influence how much favor you will lose from you favor bank or how much you regen? Could tie it up into statuette ql+ soul depth + faith +how many fingers am i holding up:)

 

Or have the ability to make a special statutette (similar of how you can make a sacrificial knife) and have the ql of taht statuette server as sort of a vessel for overflow sacced favor and could have it lose some ql everytime the overflow favor inside it is used to cast.

 

 

That would be like the casting session solution.

 

But i think the long term solution would be to have priests get favor based on performing actions their deities like.

 

So if a Fo grooms some sheep or prunes some trees could get 0.10 favor/action or something.

 

If a Mag mines could get something similar ...could make it tied to action duration or just a set value.

 

 

Could tie this favor/action thing to followers too so they dont get too bumhurt about it:)

 

And just let followers cast small buff like spells (nothing enchanting an item permanently) and they would also be fairly week spells since max fav is 30 right? Could also help balance pvp if followers could cast small single target heals or buffs and could also have followers gain channeling skill little by little using those and could just decide to priest up once they get to a good channeling.

 

 

 

 

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My first question, is this something that really needs time and resource any time soon? Current system works, we're all used to it, haven't seen complaints about it.

I mean, sorry, but there are so many annoying bugs and "features" that should be addressed...

 

 

For someone who does not exercise spam saccing/casting, this would actually add confusion.

I sac, I get favor, I get to cast a spell, it's a simple and reliable process right now. I can just set those actions in queue and check back in a minute. Because let's face the truth, most priests are alts and while doing casting, we play other character(s).

With proposed change, priest window requires more attention.

 

Next bump is linked casting. Not as much of an issue if one player controls both/all links, but with different players linking up, it gets more complicated as well. Currently, the main priest sees from event window if the batteries have finished saccing and knows exactly when casting is possible. With proposed changes, the exact time becomes guesstimational or needs active communication (which translates into more hassle).

Effect on linked channeling grinds needs a profound evaluation too.

 

In conclusion, I think the proposed mechanic would not improve priest play.

 

Personally, I could see it as improvement, if saccing fills all usable favor instantly (as it is now) and in addition there is the "pending" pool. I can also see how this gets a not_going_to_happen label.

 

If the main goal is to decrease time spent on sacrificing, then yea, just halve the saccing timer, job done.

 

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8 hours ago, Ostentatio said:

For a hypothetical example: You sacrifice 100 favor of items, giving you a pool of 100 pending favor. You would receive 10 favor immediately, followed by 45 favor spread out over the next 30 seconds of favor regeneration. The favor gained would continue more slowly as the pool is depleted, until there is none remaining.

 

This would be bad because of 2 reasons:

 

- ppl play to chill not do maths noone wants to have to sit and calculate how much favor they will receive in 40seconds from the moment they sac 15 onions:)

 

- real life interruptions: i sac something then get ready to cast but am interrupted by a real life emergency.. when i come back 15m alter is all the extra favor drained down?

 

So i think increasing the favor pool cap is the right ideea because then ppl can fill it then pop sb and cast rather than cast sac cast on sb like now.

 

But is really important that the player knows exactly how much favor will get and dont make it incremental it would be a nightmare to keep track of and also to explain to a newbie:)

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Posted (edited)

Just cut the sacrifice timer in half, and add a QoL change on the altar that tells you how much favor you get when you sac the contents.

Heck.. even add in a message saying that sacrificing the contents will heal your wounds if it's enough in there for it.. imagine that kind of transparency in the mechanics..

Edited by faty
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27 minutes ago, faty said:

Just cut the sacrifice timer in half, and add a QoL change on the altar that tells you how much favor you get when you sac the contents.

Heck.. even add in a message saying that sacrificing the contents will heal your wounds if it's enough in there for it.. imagine that kind of transparency in the mechanics..

 

No! the beehives corporation has paid handsomely for exclusivitiy on spamming our screens :)

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This sounds like you intend it to be a quality-of-life change, but possibly with a hidden agenda. However your proposed changes sounds like it would actually be a nerf in most situations and only situationally beneficial in a few situations.

 

If you want this to be an actually quality of life improvement then make it simple:

 

- Favor from sacrifice goes into your favor pool as before.
- Any overflow that doesn't fit in the favor pool goes into a buffer.

- If favor drops below max while there's favor in the buffer it gets gradually added at each favor tick.

- Favor from buffer should be added to favor relatively quickly or it would be useless for skilling with sleep bonus.

- Buffer should have a fair, but relatively high cap and stored favor should expire if favor pool has been full for more than a few minutes.

- If you want to add some balance then maybe make faith in the buffer gradually decay over time. This decay could be different on PvE vs. PvP servers if you're concerned about PvP balance.

- Maybe the size of your buffer should scale with character faith (or some other relevant stats). 

This would work exactly the same as before if you sacrifice less than your favor pool can hold. And it would give us some convenience to avoid constant sacrifice. If you're worried about balance in PvP, then please make if so it's balanced differently on PvE servers.

If you want to go further with quality of life changes to sacrifice then I would suggest looking into valuation of common items. Right now a lot of items are close to worthless making us focus on sacrificing the few items that make sense. Now that traders don't buy items anymore it could make sense to overhaul the algorithm a bit. It also doesn't help that some priests (Vynora, Mag) don't have good sacrifice items that fit into a bsb, making a lot of people chose items that fit their faith. An overflow buffer would help with that, but it's still not ideal.

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The entire idea with the buffer seems weird to me.. because in order to make it actually work you would need a buffer progress bar just like you have for favor.. otherwise it's back to calculating favor sac amounts, but not to fill the favor up, but to fill the buffer up, since you get better regeneration if the buffer is close to full (as far as i can understand).. So I don't see it as a quality of life at all if it's just a background thing that you need to take into account.

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Posted (edited)

Please don't make distance from altar be even worse than it already is. Distance from altar is not a pvp thing. Moving your character is basic gameplay. At least if you want priests to be played, not just afked alts sitting on an altar all day.

 

If you need a pvp condition, use engaged in pvp combat or enemy in local.

Edited by Anarres
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This adds almost nothing and makes things more complicated for barely any benefit. Will there be an indicator of exactly how much favor is stored and the limit? Can’t you just get basically the same benefit (but more efficient) by just linking with 1-2 saccing priests (though this was recently hurt by the 20 favor)?

 

Also just tie it either to an object (altar or similar) or have it decay rapidly if domain falls under 30. Have no decay if you stay within domain. 
 

There must be some better way to do this. 

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I agree with those who say that if the goal is to reduce the time spent sacrificing and increase the number of casts that can be performed per hour, then the best way to do this is to reduce the sac timer. I do, however, have a sneaking suspicion this is not what the devs want as a goal. 
 

Ost, can you be more clear about and/or fully disclose the intended goal of this change so that people can provide suggestions that the devs would actually consider. As it is, the original post makes it seem like the goal of this change is to increase the rate at which priests can cast their spells (ie increase the number of casts per hour that can be performed). I personally do not welcome such a change because as it is, we have all seen how the current rate of casting will produce an abundance of casted items, to the point where I personally stopped feeling the need to ever log in again to do any casting. 
 

There needs to be a balance between the rate at which priests can produce enchanted tools, and the rate at which players need new enchanted tools. Some work needs to be done to increase the demand of enchanted items over the long term before we increase the rate at which they are produced.

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Posted (edited)

As long as the "tiny" amount lost is actually tiny and 100 favor spells don't take vastly longer to cast, it sounds good.

Mind Stealer hurts enough as it is, thank you.

 

To those worried about Summon Soul getting screwed over: we still have gems (and they've kind of been not used lately). It's not an ideal solution, but gems get a use again!

But if the gems aren't enough (or people stockpiling them doesn't sound attractive somehow) I would only suggest a small (or maybe even not small) flat rate in addition to the percentage regen, both of which are still reduced at full favor. This would make smaller sacrifices for a burst cast (say, summon soul) vastly less painful.

 

Edit: I look forward to saccing a bunch of ropes and then landing 100coc first try, in any case

Edited by Stanlee
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Read below bold if you want the summed up version
This might seem rude if so sorry but

Please stop making every mechanic like fishing wurm does not need to become excel sheet online please just stop

You are claiming that the issue right now is favor gain is slow that after the bs priest link changes that you are now not happy with favor gain and want to make changes to saccing to make it more difficult to understand in hopes to "make favor regain faster" why not just lower the sac timer to 10 seconds or 5 and make it that any favor over your max favor is stored up to "faith+channeling skill when no enemies in local" else stick to max faith and excess is wasted

That way you can "store" 199 favor that is just used directly when casting but add in the limitation you can not sac unless you are under 100 favor this way it is a simple system that doesnt require a math degree and wont receive 5 years of tweaking(or left completely broken) and wont be up to ninja nerfs or buffs with numbers we wont know until we spend hours trying to figure it out

Wurm is a game first and foremost not every mechanic has to be overly complex for it to be fun

There you go simple idea simple to implement way less taxing on the servers(something your idea isnt really touching on too much) and way less bug prone and way less exploitable or confusing

Sorry if it sounds rude but this trend of "we must destroy what is easy and make it more difficult then come in to make similar systems worse" is not the way to go around making the game "better"


So again without fluff

1. you want faster favor regen because lack of links? lower sac timers to 5 or 10 seconds or allow more priests to be linked without silly bs nerfs and just fix delinking
2. Still want to do more? to include your idea? make it simple no "tiny bit over the next 30 seconds with each favor tick" just straight up grant a 200 favor pool at 100 channeling that can be used directly if not in pvp and natural favor regen stops at 100
3. When in pvp no extra favor sac timer is +5 of what out of pvp is(pvp in this case enemy in local)

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Posted (edited)

I really like this idea, but.. if waiting for 100 favor takes longer than 30-45second then nty.
 

13 hours ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

I'd suggest that saccing always does the full favor first then if theres any leftover it goes into the recharge pool. i'd also suggest that there's no limit on how much favor you can have stored up, but moving away from the altar you sacced at causes you to lose favor over time, with the amount lost being how much over your max faith you are.

+1 but like 1 tile away?

 

13 hours ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

we just need a spell that gives you favor for slapping mobs

Or change Essence Drain to give like 1-5 favor per hit depending on weapon.. making it unique and not a ripoff of LT

 

12 hours ago, Threap said:

make max favor X3 Faith

make it so you cant use more than your faith number of favor on a single spell.

This looks a bit too strong but.. i like the concept!

Edited by Llawnroc

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Plenty of relevant feedback here, hope you make the right decision. Just please, don't base that decision on someone's "the economy" or "the market" future projections

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Posted (edited)

NO!  Please.  Can we just get rid of the whole big sack of crap sac and make it go away?  This whole GOD damn GOD system of magic is just terrible.  Just make "mana" recover at a decent rate and skill gains to channeling appropriate and comparable to what someone would gain using other skills for the same duration of time spent (wasted).  Example:

 

Priest regens fast enough to cast LT 10 times in an hour.  Miner pounds rocks for an hour.  Both have comparable skill levels in mining and channeling and both go up the same amount of skill in that hour.  (yes I know, I picked a slower grind skill, but at least I didn't pick weapon smithing)

 

ALL you have to do here is decide what an acceptable number of spells to cast would be, to keep the economy from breaking.

 

Toss all this sac junk in the garbage.  This is your chance to fix a horrible system.  Please don't just make it more complicated.

Edited by Wurmhole
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At the moment I do sac, cast, sac, cast,

New system I have the option of

Sac, sac, cast, cast  or

sac, wait a bit, cast, sac, wait a bit, cast

 

Looks more like a nerf than a gain. 

Sacing everything then casting produces a small extra risk, that I am interrupted before casting, alternativly I have to wait longer for the sacrifice to produce favor. I can not see any advantages for PvE.

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Yeah wow... can this not be a thing? Go back to saccing crops for decent favor.. please :)

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Just shorten the casting time... literally the solution to the problem looking you in the face.

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Posted (edited)

This seems to me a bad idea under its current guise and lack of details. But it really comes down to the variables of how fast the favor is disturbed. IMO for this to be viable we would need to:

1. be able to obtain a full bar of favor instantly after saccing if the volume of sac'd items was sufficient, anything extra should go into the pool. This would blend the two systems and allow some folks to do the classic method and some adapt to the new.

2. Favor is often needed right away for certain obvious things like healing, summoning etc. Perhaps when using gems favor would be instant and NOT go into the excess pool. Basically working the same as they do now.

3. Spells should still be based on the favor requirement min to unlock and not be allowed for oversaccing.

4. Proper balancing of favor. As mentioned many folks including myself still use classic even thoe nerfed veggie favor because some forms are just plain a serious pain in the ass to make compared to others, particularly if you have multiple priests potentially using different forms. Metal and wood items for example are still too weak favor wise for the time/energy it takes to produce and calculate the favor generated or used per sac.

5. Side note PLEASE GIVE US A HOTKEY FOR THE GETPRICE FUNCTION since your forcing us to use more complicated, and less determinate items for favor. IE Locks, Yoyo's etc....

6. Favor stored should absolutely not deteriorate. I can see why this might be a thing but perhaps as long as your not moving favor does not decay. this would eliminate abuse for PVP etc, as soon as you move you start losing favor. If favor degrades in any reasouable amount then were just back to wasting favor by oversaccing witch is one of the problems to specifically address.

7. The first favor tick after casting should be larger to potentialy account for failed casts.

8. The maximum favor pool should be NO MORE then 300 to prevent solo'ing seasonal rite spells. Or Rites should require no less then 4 people in chain. Or even easier you cant spend more then 100 favor per cast.

9. Cannot spend a links pool favor directly.

 

 - OR -

Just Reduce saccing times to 5 or 10 seconds, raising the favor cap is the same problem because people will always want to optimize and get as close to absolutely full as possible. This is honestly probably the best solution overall and with the least headache, unless there is another agenda behind the change.

 

For example: I want to cast life transfer, costs 100 favor. This under normal conditions takes 20 seconds to cast, and 30 seconds to sac for, making cycle time about 50 seconds. If i were able to oversac to say 300 favor with a 50 points per 30 seconds regen then that would allow me to make 3 casts in about 80 seconds per cast average. Thus increasing the time taken to cast by over 50%. (80 seconds for additional casts up from 50 seconds, and saving no time at all on the first sac.). One does not need to be a math genius to see that even this number is inadequate to compensate for the reduction in sac actions. Distribution would have to be in the area of 100 points per 30 seconds to even be close to the same. Even more so to actually be effective at saving any time whatever. Thoe i dont see why we need the action to take less time overall i can see the reasoning and giving folks the option.

 

On the surface to me this looks like its just gonna make casting take even longer, but it really will come down to how the passive distribution works, but IMO you absolutely need a large or full bar of favor right after sac even if you over sac into the pool. Some simple math suggests that unless the rate for distribution is pretty high then your really just making casting even longer. The rate would have to be something to the effect of 90 favor per 20 seconds + passive gains to even be comperable to the existing system.

 

Personally i don't see a problem with having to sac for each or every other cast. Please give this serious thought before implementation and don't break casting anymore.

 

Addition: and just so were clear you say we spend half our time sacing, but thats only the final step in the process of favor production, i dont spam you all up with the numbers here but it takes 2 minutes + just to make the materials for 100 favor before you can even sac it. So reducing the number of sac actions is a minimal net gain even if it were made to the point that 1 sac could give me 1000 favor. In reality near 90% of the time of the "cast" goes into favor production

 

 - VirusMD

Edited by VirusMD

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47 minutes ago, necroe said:

Just shorten the casting time... literally the solution to the problem looking you in the face.

You mean sac time? Casting time would reduce skillgain. 

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Sounds over complicated and a lot of work tuning possibly without real benefit. Simply really as a few pointed out already. Reduce sacc timer. All fixed. Too less favour? I swiftly sacc a bit more. Also display of favour being given sounds great!

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