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Ostentatio

Changes to favor gain from sacrificing

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Hello, everyone!


The team have been discussing the current sacrifice mechanics, and how they relate to the overall experience of spellcasting and enchanting, and have some changes we'd like to discuss.


Many spells in Wurm require a large portion of the favor bar to cast. This means that casting a large number of spells in a row requires constantly interrupting your spellcasting to sacrifice more items for favor. For many spells, a sacrifice is required after every single cast, causing roughly half your time to be spent sacrificing instead of casting.


To help alleviate this, we're introducing a change to how favor is gained from sacrificing items. Instead of providing you with the favor value of the items immediately, they will provide you with favor gradually over a period of time.


The following will occur after an item worth favor is sacrificed:

  • The favor gained from the item is added to the player's pool of "pending favor", instead of being added to the player's favor immediately.
  • Every time the player naturally regenerates favor, a percentage of the player's current pending favor (rounded up) is removed, and added to their current favor.
    • This also occurs once immediately after sacrificing the item, so the player receives some of the favor immediately.
    • This favor is added after natural regeneration is calculated, so the amount you regenerate naturally will not be affected.
    • If some of the favor removed from the "pending favor" pool would bring the player over their maximum favor, a much smaller amount will be removed from the pool instead. We hope that this in particular will reduce the amount of favor potentially wasted, while still keeping a limit on how long this pending favor can effectively last.
  • There will be a maximum amount of pending favor the player can have in the pool at one time, in order to prevent abuse.

 

For a hypothetical example: You sacrifice 100 favor of items, giving you a pool of 100 pending favor. You would receive 10 favor immediately, followed by 45 favor spread out over the next 30 seconds of favor regeneration. The favor gained would continue more slowly as the pool is depleted, until there is none remaining.

Note that this is only a hypothetical example. Specific numbers and other details are very likely to change!

 

So, in practice, the larger proportion of the favor is still given relatively soon after sacrificing, but is gradual enough to allow you to sacrifice large amounts of favor at once with minimal waste.


The goals we're hoping this will achieve are:

  • Less time spent needing to sacrifice items during long casting sessions.
  • More flexibility in sacrificing overall, with less need to know exactly how much you need to sacrifice at any given time in order to fill your favor bar.
  • Less wasted favor from sacrificing too much at once and overflowing your favor bar.


We would like some feedback on this change before we add it to the game, both from PvE and PvP perspectives. Any suggestions, questions, or potentially concerns are greatly appreciated!

 

As this is a feedback thread, we ask that all replies be helpful and constructive.

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I like the idea, will sacrificing mobs use the same system? could really make hunting and sacrificing mobs to grind channeling worthwhile, we just need a spell that gives you favor for slapping mobs ;)

 

I'd suggest that saccing always does the full favor first then if theres any leftover it goes into the recharge pool. i'd also suggest that there's no limit on how much favor you can have stored up, but moving away from the altar you sacced at causes you to lose favor over time, with the amount lost being how much over your max faith you are.

 

One problem with it i see is that casting 100 favor spells would be annoying on this system, as you'd have to wait for it to slowly fill up, whereas casting a 50 favor spell you'd recharge to 50, start casting, and by the time you've casted you're already at/very close to 100 favor, so you'd be ready to cast again a few seconds after the previous cast. I guess this system would really shine with a link, but they add difficulty which is bad for casting.

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This tries to fix a current problem (natural favor regeneration being too slow) by removing a mechanic used to rapidly cast enchants. This looks like it's just going to slow down enchanting even further, making skilling with sleep bonus even harder (by spacing out the casts over a longer duration), and creating an even wider gap for skill between those who were using mechanics before and after the change.

 

A change like this needs to seriously be a direct buff for priests. These numbers need to be really, really good for this to work out.

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and how would this work on pvp

is there a cap? xd

 

or does every pvp priest now have an "uncapped" favor pool that just poops out favor all day

 

or does it just wear off after the 30 seconds

Edited by Oreo

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3 minutes ago, Sindusk said:

This tries to fix a current problem (natural favor regeneration being too slow) by removing a mechanic used to rapidly cast enchants. This looks like it's just going to slow down enchanting even further, making skilling with sleep bonus even harder (by spacing out the casts over a longer duration), and creating an even wider gap for skill between those who were using mechanics before and after the change.

 

A change like this needs to seriously be a direct buff for priests. These numbers need to be really, really good for this to work out.

 

One purpose of this is to reduce the tedium from having to sacrifice items frequently, by allowing you to sacrifice large amounts at once and receive the favor from it over the span of multiple casts. This is mostly a matter of calibrating exactly how quickly the favor is given over time.

 

2 minutes ago, Oreo said:

and how would this work on pvp

is there a cap? xd

 

or does every pvp priest now have an "uncapped" favor pool that just poops out favor all day

 

There would be a cap on the amount of favor you can have in your pool at once, and even with full favor, the pool will still drain, slowly, over time. Using this for long-term favor storage like that wouldn't really viable.

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It's super similar to the idea I was floating around and suggesting, and as thus I obviously support- it would make sacrificing much more appealing as a method of grinding (and just in general more appealing).

Definitely +1 to Oblivion's points of allowing it to work with sacrificing monsters, and that pending favor only manifests after your current favor bar is full though.

I do think that the rate of favor drain should increase if you're outside of an altar's influence though- it shouldn't be something people can use in pvp.

Edited by RainRain

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2 minutes ago, Ostentatio said:

One purpose of this is to reduce the tedium from having to sacrifice items frequently, by allowing you to sacrifice large amounts at once and receive the favor from it over the span of multiple casts. This is mostly a matter of calibrating exactly how quickly the favor is given over time.

 

I get that, but will it simply increase natural favor regeneration (adding from your pool faster if you're lower favor), or is it a static amount per second? If it's a static amount per second, then the whole thing is a bust regardless of the calibration. Fail a few casts and you're at max favor wasting your favor pool. Too many successes and you can't actually cast repeatedly.

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I personally don't think you need to waste time on changing the mechanic. But lets assume you decide to put man power into this.

 

First lets assume most priest have 70 faith.

And second lets first before having a conversation put a hard limit on the pool so people have a better grasp of it. 

Lets say the cap of the pool is 400 favor, how long would this 400 favor pool last for.  400 favor = 8 coc cast.

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Just now, Sindusk said:

 

I get that, but will it simply increase natural favor regeneration (adding from your pool faster if you're lower favor), or is it a static amount per second? If it's a static amount per second, then the whole thing is a bust regardless of the calibration. Fail a few casts and you're at max favor wasting your favor pool. Too many successes and you can't actually cast repeatedly.

 

I went into some of these details in the original post:

  • You would receive a fraction of your pending favor pool, whatever it is, each time your favor regenerates naturally. It wouldn't be a flat amount each time.
  • Failing casts, causing you to remain at full favor, won't cause a significant amount of "waste" because the amount you lose from the pool is drastically slowed down if your favor is full.
  • The worst case scenario regarding "too many successes" is that you have to sacrifice some more right away, which is already something you have to do after every success in the current system.

Again, your concerns will boil down to how this is calibrated.

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While I like this idea, it seems to be INCREDIBLY important that the balance is gotten right around how long your favour pool lasts, just how high the favour pool cap is, and how quickly it can regenerate, particularly making sure people are still able to cast very high favour spells in a timely manner.

My other concern is that this change does nothing to address the serious (imo) issue of how poor the sacrifice options are. Many priests are STILL opting to use heavily nerfed chopped veggies on account of the fact that many of the other sac options are overly cumbersome to make by comparison. Perhaps now that traders can't be drained for coin, some consideration might be given to increasing the value of various items, making them more worthwhile for sacrificing:

Wooden things other than yoyos or paper for example?

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Sounds convoluted to me, just taking something simple and overcomplicating it.

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Just now, Ostentatio said:

 

One purpose of this is to reduce the tedium from having to sacrifice items frequently, by allowing you to sacrifice large amounts at once and receive the favor from it over the span of multiple casts. This is mostly a matter of calibrating exactly how quickly the favor is given over time.

 

Current situation: You need 320 favor for 4 casts, you sacrifice 80 favor worth of items before each cast.

 

Situation A (Speed): You need 320 favor for 4 casts, you sacrifice 640 favor worth of items and receive 128 upfront, 320 within a minute or two, and the remaining 192 within ten minutes. The favor over your cap is wasted.

 

Situation B (Conserving saccables): You need 320 favor for 4 casts, you sacrifice 320 favor worth of items and receive 64 upfront, 160 within a minute or two, and the remaining 96 within ten minutes.

 

So on paper the idea sounds good, but you're either A. sacrificing more than what you need to get the casts done in a reasonable amount of time or B. sacrificing only what you need to do the casts and then waiting around for the last of the favor to show up.

 

 

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Wouldnt a much simplier solution be:-

 

make max favor X3 Faith

make it so you cant use more than your faith number of favor on a single spell.

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2 minutes ago, kaidley said:

Is this a PVE change or PVP?

Nope. A wurm change

 

  

2 minutes ago, Threap said:

Wouldnt a much simplier solution be:-

 

make max favor X3 Faith

make it so you cant use more than your faith number of favor on a single spell.



This would have the unintended consequence of making priests far more powerful in pvp, and just in general be a huge buff, as they would then be able to travel around with 3x the favour, without needing to use gems. 

Edited by Arronicus

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4 minutes ago, Threap said:

Wouldnt a much simplier solution be:-

 

make max favor X3 Faith

make it so you cant use more than your faith number of favor on a single spell.

 

seriously +1, just stop here and go with this

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I'm afraid I don't quite get it. 

 

Over the course of the hour the proposal sounds like it's going from say 30 casts and 30 sacs to 25 casts and 1 big sac and 24 waiting for favor to fill sessions.    Much less time sacing but more time spent waiting so fewer casts.

 

Either you're staring at the screen waiting for the item to sac (current method) or you're staring at the screen waiting for some favor pool to refill (proposed method).   Either way you're not casting and not getting skill or enchanted items.   If they're identical in casts per hour what's the point.  If the proposal results in fewer casts per hour it's a loser and if t's faster by say 10% then why not just reduce the sac time, surely takes less effort and generates the same rough result.

Edited by belthize
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7 minutes ago, belthize said:

If the proposal results in fewer casts per hour it's a loser and if t's faster by say 10% then why not just reduce the sac time, surely takes less effort and generates the same rough result.

 

That's the winner right there.

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1 hour ago, Ostentatio said:

The goals we're hoping this will achieve are:

  • Less time spent needing to sacrifice items during long casting sessions.
  • More flexibility in sacrificing overall, with less need to know exactly how much you need to sacrifice at any given time in order to fill your favor bar.
  • Less wasted favor from sacrificing too much at once and overflowing your favor bar.

 

In order to spend less time sacrificing, we need the favor to be delivered in less time than it would take to sacrifice a 2nd time after doing the first high-favor cast. Why not make it immediate? I.e. upon sacrificing 200 favor worth of items, fill your favor bar completely and immediately, and retain the excess in a background pool, which would also completely and immediately refill your favor bar, allowing back-to-back casting. 

 

For balance reasons in PvP, this favor pool would need to be tied to a specific location (the altar which was used to sacrifice) or be completely unavailable with enemies in local (can still have favor in your background pool, but can't recharge favor bar). With enemies in local, you should still be able to sacrifice up to your favor bar limit.

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I think it's difficult to understand properly how well this works without having numbers- I doubt this would in any way make sacrificing any worse in any way, although fine-tuning it  is essential to making it work out.

I think two other ways of going about it could work too:

1. Your 'pending' favor is just an overflow favor bar- you can sacrifice past your favor limit, but only while close to an altar. This has a hard limit on how much you can have, and this favor rapidly deteriorates the further you get from an altar.

2. The 'storage' altar suggestion works fine too- sacrificing items would store it into the altar, and casting spells would drain from the altar.


I don't think making sacrificing faster would fix much, as chaining together spells would still be annoying unless you have precisely counted out bags of favor to sac in between spellcasts- that said, I also think the system just sounds more complex than it is. It's changing sacrificing from being bulk to being a slow drip over time- though how good this will work entirely depends on how much of your pool you gain each tick, how much you 'lose' if you're at maximum favor, and so forth.

Having hard numbers would help judge this more appropriately; I also think just being relaxed with the 'wasted' favor if your favor bar is full (i.e only losing a very small amount each favor tick) would help concerns too. Or just make it unlimited and have it rapidly decay if you move away from an altar/haven't cast a spell recently.

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31 minutes ago, belthize said:

I'm afraid I don't quite get it. 

 

...

 

Either you're staring at the screen waiting for the item to sac (current method) or you're staring at the screen waiting for some favor pool to refill (proposed method).   Either way you're not casting and not getting skill or enchanted items.   

 

Or, you're mining or performing some other action, gaining skill while waiting for your favour to recharge. If you're staring at the screen waiting for your favour to regen, that's just you being inefficient with your time. 

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Just now, Arronicus said:

 

Or, you're mining or performing some other action, gaining skill while waiting for your favour to recharge. If you're staring at the screen waiting for your favour to regen, that's just you being inefficient with your time. 

Doing actions cuts your favor regen in half though

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Just now, Oblivionnreaver said:

Doing actions cuts your favor regen in half though

If you're getting really bulked up favour regen now, that seems to be less of an issue, unless it affects favour from sacrifices. Can also do stuff like panfilling though, which doesn't count as an action. Now admittedly you can do that now already admittedly, but my point is more, you can still keep busy.  Still, good point

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This is pretty much exactly what I said needs to not be touched in a post I made in the link thread.  It's complicated by design, you're adding waiting to get favor on top of already waiting to get favor from waiting 30 seconds to finish the sacrifice option on top of the absolutely ridiculous methods of getting the favor in the first place.

 

We don't need getting favor to be worse.  We don't need updates that require manuals and math to properly understand and plan.  Favor needs to be not hard to get and for fun make sacrificing at an altar 10 seconds.  Not very complicated. 

 

Honestly...  why does a chopped onion give 2.5 favor or whatever miserable number it gives now?  Why do you have to have the absolute best ql sac items to still only get 20 favor each item where a more achievable ql to the average player in mass examples will end up giving just 5 or 10?  Is the game going to suffer and die if you can sac a 70ql yoyo for 40 favor?  A 90ql door lock for 60 favor? 

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My immediate response to this is NO!

 

One of the highest favour spells is Summon Soul:

  • Often needed in an emergency
  • Often needed to help new players
  • Often needs immediate favour obtained from saccing
  • Sometimes needs multiple priests, but
  • Often cast by a lone priest
  • Takes 100 favour (all your favour)
  • Can fail requiring further favour saccing

Please don't make priests wait to cast this spell in emergencies, possibly fail and then wait again

Please don't make players (especially new or vulnerable players) wait in sometimes difficult situations while the priest waits for favour regen.

For example: This spell was needed urgently multiple times at this summer's impalong for example

 

Also consider other time-critical spells such as healing spells, please don't make players wait for enough favour to cast these either.

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