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TheTrickster

Sleep Powder fundamentally breaks the balancing intent of Sleep Bonus and should be removed from the game as a trade good

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Yes, yes, grab your torch and pitchfork everybody, I am denouncing a beloved game mechanic; one that makes a lot of money for the game, to boot.

 

Here is my reasoning;

 

Sleep bonus is fundamentally intended as a balancing mechanic between those who can spend a lot of time in-game and those who cannot.  From Wurmpedia : "This is a way to help players who can not play for many hours each day, without hindering players who can stay logged on for a long time."  It would seem that the intent is for the bonus to be used proportionately to the time when a player is not playing to offset the gains they could have made had they been logged in.

 

Sleep Powder, on the other hand, is a way to gain sleep bonus without spending time not playing.  It removes the "help" element because those who can stay logged on can still get the same bonus as those who can't; in fact they can get more because they can spend more time running down their SB and then topping it up.

 

Because of Sleep Powder, Sleep Bonus does not provide the balancing function for which it was implemented.  It would have been far better to provide enhanced gain to "serious" or "paying" players by building a gain multiplier into premium (instead of the token 1 powder per month), with sleep bonus continuing to function as is.

 

Giving sleep bonus to offset downtime etc, would still be fine, and whether that is a direct bump to the SB bar or in the form of a non-drop non-trade powder is a whole other consideration.  

 

EDIT:  I was sure I posted this in Town Hall, as something for discussion.  I am not actually advocating the removal of sleep powders, so I don't consider this an actual suggestion, merely a postulate.

 

Edited by TheTrickster
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angry-mob-1-1.png

 

 

I somewhat understand what you are getting at, but at the same time, just because someone can play more doesn't mean they should be penalized.
 

I don't see how this would help balance things between those that can play for long periods versus those that cannot, at the end of the day the people that can play for longer will get more skill gain, with or without sleep powder/sleep bonus.
It might lessen it, but it will still be something to consider. It is just like any of the other MMOs for those that can play/grind longer than those that are unable at the moment.

It is just like what is happening in the new servers. People that hold the knowledge of the tips & tricks of the game versus those that are playing for the first time who don't know anything. There really isn't much that can be done simply because Joey is capable of playing for 10-14 hours per day while James can only play for 1-4 hours per day.

Similar to the people who have their journal unlocked for the +1hr maximum hour sleep bonus, they would have the extra hour compared to those that don't, even if they were only sleeping in the bed... There is quite a lot to consider when you propose trying to make things more level and equal footing for everyone. An extra hour of sleep bonus is a massive advantage over the people that don't, even if you don't use sleep powder.

Wurm by definition is one of those games that rewards those who are able to put a lot of time into the game.


Edit: Why is it an issue in your thoughts? Could you elaborate more on why it is a problem currently?

Edited by Jotz
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Yes, I'm sure they will remove a source of revenue because its not fair for poor people and children.

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Part of the "problem" is that there is indeed a natural imbalance due to available grindage time.  That's endemic to the whole game class, though, so not unexpected.  Sleep Bonus was an attempt at helping along the short-on-time without penalizing the 50/50 RL/VL crowd.  The problem with the powder is it neutralized that balancing and has become a fundamental and relied-upon dynamic, such that taking it away to restore SB to its balancing role can be seen (not illegitimately, I might add) as a penalty against those who can play more.

 

As to why short-loggers should have something while long-loggers don't - I guess my response is that without powders SB would still only partially counter-balance the benefit of a lot of time in-game, so those who can do that already and still have an advantage 

over those who can't.  The long-loggers don't need it - it isn't giving an advantage but merely somewhat mitigating a disadvantage (well, that would be the case without powders).

 

It is not a "problem" as such for me, with the way I play.  I am not competing with anyone for anything and can't be bothered grinding in any serious way at all - I only put much effort in specific skill gain if I find I am just a little bit short of what I need to do something specific.  I guess it was in that space (chasing a final point or two of a skill to open up a new item I wanted to make) that I found myself watching the SB bar and using up powders that I pondered the whole set up and wondered if this is what the game is like in general for the grinders.

 

It is more an observation that one feature was included as an encouragement of sorts for a subset of players and another feature pretty much nullified it.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Faneto said:

Yes, I'm sure they will remove a source of revenue because its not fair for poor people and children.

 

I am pretty sure they won't, but that doesn't change the facts that I am observing.  😉

 

Monetizing skill gain is always a bit of a vexed issue.  It is worth remembering the RMT is really only banned between players - the owners are happy to take real money in trade for in-game benefits (not a criticism, just another observation).

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Coming soon, burning beds, another source of unearned sleep bonus...

 

Sorry, but removing sleep powder isn’t the answer if the problem doesn’t actually exist. Sleep bonus isn’t just a compensation for people unable to play as often, it’s also, or was, a method of compensation for changes to premium costs, so that too would have to be addressed, I know many would see the cessation of sleep powders for premium as a negative factor. Devaluing their payment for premium. 
 

It’s probably been part of wurm for so long that removing it now would be far more detrimental than keeping it in will be. It would also derive new players of some extra silver, and since referrals are now completely gone it’s a change that will make it even harder to earn anything at all.

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I wouldn't agree that people who are able to play a long time, aren't in need of it, especially with the difficult/time needed to get some of the skills up. (Weaponsmithing as an example.)

Which I suppose boils it down to being more of a skill leveling problem than anything else, which is a fundamental game problem rather than sleep powder itself, atleast that is how we see it. My husband and I are long players, as you put it, capable of putting in 12-16 hours due to a fortunate real life situation. We both wouldn't want to play the game without sleep powder though, definitely would be a nightmare! It eases the skill grind needed for quite a lot of things.

I can see where you are coming from that Sleep Powder isn't being used for its intended purposes. However, at the end of the day Sleep Powder is available for everyone, whether that person plays for one hour or ten hours. Its more of a time problem than anything. It isn't as if people who are playing for a longer time receive anymore of a benefit from that skill bonus, as it still will only give you one hour.

Sleep Powder is more beneficial for a new player than it is a high end player, because that new player will receive more skill ticks than someone on the higher end of the spectrum.


Edit: People have been going to Epic/Chaos to level up their skills quickly, which could be seen as a bigger problem than sleep powder itself.

Edited by Jotz

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2 minutes ago, Zenity said:

It’s probably been part of wurm for so long that removing it now would be far more detrimental than keeping it in will be.

 

I tend to agree with you.  I put "should" in the topic title to encourage some engagement and discussion because I find it a very interesting phenomenon, but it is such an ingrained dynamic that it is probably inextricable without fundamentally altering the game.  

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You sound like you think sleep powder is the driving force behind some players passing others in skill.  I promise you, that isn't the case.  The difference is playtime.

 

Take Eve for example.  You can spend 18 hours a day mining, blowing up other people's stuff, playing the market, etc.... whatever YOU want to do, and you will gain X amount of skill over time because you clicked one button when you logged on. Alternately, I can log in Eve for 30 seconds, click a button and log off... and the next day when I log in, I have as much skill as you.

 

Wurm on the other hand encourages ACTIVITY, not just paying for prem, sub, VIP or whatever your game of choice chooses to call it.  You play for 18 hours a day, you gain 18 hours worth of skill (assuming you're grinding optimally).

 

Your sleep powder argument lacks merit due to the fact that it only works in tandem with "no-lifing" the game.  I did it for 6 years, and I just can't bring myself to do it again from the beginning.  Does that make you a better player than me because you bought 23450938079826 sleep powder and and made it disappear like rum cake in an AA convention?  No, it doesn't.

 

Sleep powder is not an instant gratification item.  You don't simply eat sleep powder and BOOM you have 90 weapon smithing.  (As opposed to a skill injector in Eve, parallel to my previously mentioned comparison).  Sleep powder requires effort (ACTIVITY) in order to maximize its benefit.

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Speaking of which when are we getting our sb/skill gain compensation for server issues since launch that Retro metioned?

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17 minutes ago, Wargasm said:

Your sleep powder argument lacks merit due to the fact that it only works in tandem with "no-lifing" the game

 

Actually, no its exactly that on which I base my observation.  Most of what you argue here is not actually about sleep powder but about sleep bonus.  Sleep Powder is simply an additional means to access the bonus without "sleeping".  

 

I completely get that the difference is playtime.  SB, according to the doc, is/was intended to offset a small portion of that difference, but SP reinstates it, on caffeine.  Ooh, maybe Sleep Powder should be renamed Caffeine 😉

 

I am not complaining about sleep powder.  I just think it is a good thing to be objective about it and through discussion improve not only my own but hopefully a collective understanding of the system.

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30 minutes ago, AceRifle said:

Speaking of which when are we getting our sb/skill gain compensation for server issues since launch that Retro metioned?

He specifically said any compensation will NOT be sleep bonus, but he did mention compensation.

Though maybe that was just to quell the crowd and they ultimately decided against it? 🤷‍♀️

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Nope.

 

My 45 minutes of sleep bonus a day doesn't allow me to catch up to someone who is able to play all day so I resort to sleep powder.

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1 hour ago, Jotz said:

angry-mob-1-1.png
 

 

 

By the way, whose giant forehead is that?  (Straight back from Mr Largo the music teacher, a couple of rows behind Apu).

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1 minute ago, TheTrickster said:

 

 

By the way, whose giant forehead is that?  (Straight back from Mr Largo the music teacher, a couple of rows behind Apu).


Isn't that the Italian Chef guy? Thought it was his hat...

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Wouldn't this really harm new players? The sleep bonus from the 2 month bundle can net them around 2 months of deed upkeep on a small deed, right?

Edited by Ecrir

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Interesting thoughts and I understand where your coming from I think.

 

A person who can afford more sleep powder in theory gets better skills by more efficient grinding, than since has higher skills can sell more and then buy more sleep powder to again grind better, always staying one step ahead.

 

But the buying of sleep powder tends to be more between players, so money the top skilled people make then gets spent on "normal" peoples sleep powder, giving them funds to maybe buy items, deeds or what ever. So i think the positives in the sleep powder trade out weighs the negatives imo. I dont use sleep powder myself as I not bothered about the compete or trading, I sell them and use the funds to pay for a large deed, as for me terraforming is my fun aspect of wurm.

 

But lets say sleep powders become non tradeable / buyable would the next thing be removing affinities from the Mark store, a rich person could in theory pay to win by subbing so long that he gets a ton of affinities, which would boost his skill gain?

 

 

Also I feel it wouldn't make much of a difference in the long term anyway, the peoples with knowledge on how to grind the most effective way will always be a head of the curve.

 

Like i said I understand where your coming from, but I don't think its a problem to be honest.

Edited by Badvoc
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Is a 2x experience card pay to win?  - Yes

Is sleep powder a 2x experience card? - Yes

What if I could earn that card, would it still be pay to win - Maybe?

 

Sleep powder is tricky mostly because it can be earned, and most casual players will have permanent 2x experience from their natural sleep bonus regeneration (not to mention mission rewards).  They're not really losing out as it were... 

 

However, players who play a lot, and sink a lot of money into sleep powder, have a distinct advantage because they also have their full play time at 2x experience.  One could argue the casual player loses out because a whale can play 2 days of 2x exp for every 1 the casual player does.

 

Removing sleep powder would likely nerf this advantage heavily.  Then again, here you have "balance vs gameplay"; and the real crux of the question is "is the balance obtained worth the loss of game enjoyment"?

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You sleep more, you gain more sleep bonus.

You play less, and have less time to spend it.

Which means your sleep powder doesn't get used as much.

Which means you can sell it for some extra income.

Why would you not want extra income?

 

Also, if a player can spend all their money and time to buy and play with sleep bonus/powder, and then this feat is removed - they will just play more characters and schedule the sleep periods. They still get double or triple the skill per person, compared to those that cannot be 18/7 in the game.

 

Sleep powder is not the evil here.

Edited by Shmeric

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17 hours ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

what is your thoughts on journal, missions, downtime, all that giving sleep bonus

 

Journal - I think you mean the increased SB capacity for journal completion.  I think it does provide additional bonus to those who probably "need" it less, so works against the mitigation that SB is supposed to give to those who are off-line more, BUT is a genuine minor bonus for an achievement, is not a trade good,  and without powders the only way to fill that extra capacity is time off-line.

 

Missions -  I'm a mugwump on this one.  Yes, it is giving a sleep bonus for activity instead of inactivity but anyone can get these even if they are not active for long periods of time. As an example, I don't generally intentionally participate in missions but I have exactly once; I was logged in for probably less than an hour in total (half of which was spend struggling to travel maybe 80-100 tiles due to extreme lag) but in that time gave my starter shovel (which is actually a spade, but that's a whole nother argument) to an oversized bovine.  Next time I logged in, I had extra SB because I had contributed to that particular mission.  

 

Downtime - I think SB is a good way to offset "global" downtime as it harmonizes quite well with the notion of SB offsetting individual downtime.

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I am going to provide a counterargument that I haven't yet read above (it might be there but I haven't yet read it).

 

Beds.

 

and Bedrolls.

 

It will generally take a "skipper" a lot longer to build a bed than it will take a "diver", and as for bedrolls, sheesh! This means that whatever the stated intent of SB, those who spend more time ingame will strongly tend to be able to access it well before those who spend less time in game.  

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