Sign in to follow this  
Platyna

I don't understand what is the problem with dyes.

Recommended Posts

I like black, since early childhood I preferred black clothes and currently I wear just black, my phone is black etc., which is practical - I don't need to match the colours etc. So, when I made an account in Wurm the possibility to paint items a real black was one thing that made me to like this game very much and I started my black vehicle & decorations collection. I have put so much money (and these are considerable figures), time and effort into it so this change seriously affects my game play. Recently I posted an auction of a black knarr, and some person posted that this dye was made due to an exploit. I inquired to a person who makes the dyes for me, and he explained it was just dye mixing (which, judging by the description, worked like they work IRL) and everyone, including staff, knew it works like that, yet this possibility was silently removed with the last server restart. Now my collection will be forever incomplete because no one can make a true black dye any more. What is the point of implementing an item or a feature that no one, after all these years can make? And why dyes and colour runes, which require expensive moonmetals and give a chance of getting a desired colour close to 0 (I bought a lot of adamantine and ordered like 40 colour runes and got nothing even close to black, not mentioning the black itself) have such an absurd difficulty to make? They give zero advantage to the game play, no power, no skill gain, nothing besides aesthetics. Why? Please, change it back, the dye was absurdly expensive anyway, but at least it was available. There is no reason to nerf its creation. 

Edited by Platyna
  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I for one dont really mind. But i do mind how the color sticks to items. Before with a 250Rgb white we could have white chain sets. Or white fences. While now 90ql white makes the fence darker than it was before.

 

That needs some work and the shader needs to be set to maybe 150 on the rgb scale and not to complete 255 white. Allowing like before for 70ql black to be black, while now 100ql black is actually dark brown. And white to be white.some people want white boats

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only items that seems to show black correctly are rares. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Zarame said:

I for one dont really mind. But i do mind how the color sticks to items. Before with a 250Rgb white we could have white chain sets. Or white fences. While now 90ql white makes the fence darker than it was before.

 

That needs some work and the shader needs to be set to maybe 150 on the rgb scale and not to complete 255 white. Allowing like before for 70ql black to be black, while now 100ql black is actually dark brown. And white to be white.some people want white boats

 

 

Exactly this, I want a white boat. 

 

I test painted what I thought was a reasonable white dye (can't remember QL now) on a table and it went from pine-coloured to a rich dark brown.  A nice colour, but almost the opposite of what I was hoping for.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dye is an interesting part of Wurm.  It gives a pleasing feature for people who like to dolly up their deeds or avatars.

 

I am not a pro dye maker but logically I would have thought that adding lower rgb values to higher rgb values should lower the value of the affected  r or g or b.  Mixing small batches of paint with lower r or g or b than the other one would see a very small decrease as the amount of paint is small, wheras mixing bigger amounts/volumes of paint would see higher increase in the value of the r or g or b.  I agree with Platyna that there is no advantage other than "looks", and finding low ql cochineals, copper or other mats when you are a high player already, is difficult.  It  will give people with low skill the opportunity to sell off some lower value stuff, and also gave a use for the low ql mats stashed in boxes from noob days.  Secondly, it would make sense that the actual quality of the dye itself will impact the "coverage" so a higher nat subs char can create higher ql paint that covers the item well, but the actual colour itself (rgb value) can be adapted by mixing higher or lower rgb values into the dye itself. 

 

If some highly skilled dye makers could clarify how dye making works, it would be great.  I understand there are "trade secrets" but honestly, most people would find it interesting to know but not necessarily pursue such a difficult skill. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

people exploited it enough to have thousands of litres of the stuff i'm sure you can find more exploited dye

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

people exploited it enough to have thousands of litres of the stuff i'm sure you can find more exploited dye

 

Not an exploit according to @Retrograde himself when asked about it.

 

Spoiler

Of course story's likely changed after he used it to stockpile enough of it to last many years.

 

Edited by Delacroix

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah, jumping straight into accusing staff of cheating. That’s going to go well for you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually I stopping doing much with black dye after the exploit was found. I worked too hard to get my ns too high and go through too many thousands of acorns grinding botanising to 90 to compete. 

 

Please don't throw around baseless accusations 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

Actually I stopping doing much with black dye after the exploit was found. I worked too hard to get my ns too high and go through too many thousands of acorns grinding botanising to 90 to compete. 

 

Please don't throw around baseless accusations 

 

Log of a conversation an acquaintance had directly with you:

 

Spoiler

Logging started 2019-08-09
[23:57:14] <Archaed> I do that, but 200 kgs is a lot
[23:57:25] <Archaed> I usually charge 5s a small barrel
[23:59:23] <Felinas> for waste product?
[23:59:40] <Archaed> 3/3/3 is not waste product
[00:00:19] <Felinas> maybe take a bit of a close look at how the system works then, but it definitely is
[00:00:31] <Archaed> it works from 155
[00:00:42] <Archaed> It all shifts towards grey
[00:00:50] <Archaed> not down to black
[00:01:13] <Felinas> Not sure what to tell you, I can make ~200 KG's of this crap in like 5 minutes
[00:01:21] <Archaed> then why not?
[00:01:33] <Archaed> and how?
[00:06:08] <Felinas> Seeing as I'm talking to a GM I don't necessarily want to be responsible for getting something ninja fixed, plenty of people happy with how it works
[00:06:16] <Felinas> But, it sounds like you know the method and are just denying that it works..
[00:06:21] <Archaed> I'm not a GM
[00:06:31] <Archaed> And I'm curious
[00:06:32] <Felinas> Well you are staff*
[00:06:40] <Felinas> And can pass things along
[00:06:40] <Archaed> Because I busted my balls making a crapton of black dye
[00:07:04] <Archaed> so im curious about it
[00:07:10] <Archaed> and it now sounds like you suspect it to be unintended
[00:07:27] <Felinas> You never know with this game do you
[00:07:47] <Archaed> Well I'd be happy to clarify, and can guarantee no ninja fixes to it
[00:08:39] <Felinas> Ehhh at least let me stock up on the stuff first loool
[00:09:04] <Archaed> I think I know of the method you're using, it is unintended, and zero ninja fixes
[00:09:08] <Archaed> any fix will be in patch notes
[00:09:30] <Archaed> Rather see black easier to make than exploitable
[00:09:53] <Archaed> Or change iron/zinc to adjust rgb as a whole
[00:09:57] <Felinas> Ahh the truth comes out, you do know what I'm talking about
[00:10:01] <Archaed> stupid that they cant
[00:10:26] <Archaed> Course I do, it's already been reported
[00:11:31] <Archaed> I used the fact it didnt lose rgb when it decayed to make it en masse before bulk storage
[00:12:31] <Felinas> Hmm, so I take it a fix is planned eventually
[00:12:41] <Archaed> I'd like there to be
[00:12:52] <Archaed> It's hard to argue it;s intended mechanics
[00:13:14] <Felinas> Sad - But yeah black dye should be a lot easier to make if it is fixed, especially since black is basically the starting point for good custom colors
[00:13:25] <Archaed> No way, black sucks for it
[00:14:03] <Archaed> I start with high ql mats
[00:15:15] <Felinas> Depends how you prefer to arrive at the same conclusion I guess
[00:15:33] <Felinas> can't say I've ever made a TON of dyes in my time
[00:15:57] <Archaed> Starting with that black means any skill can mix up I guess, just requires knowledge of how mixing works
[00:16:03] <Archaed> But the larger amounts you mix the worse off you are
[00:16:17] <Archaed> i wouldnt want to mix more than 15kgs at once
[00:16:31] <Felinas> I do 40-50 on average and it really isn't that bad
[00:18:59] <Archaed> jola charges something like 5c per kg?
[00:19:02] <Archaed> maybe thats how
[00:19:38] <Felinas> Aye that seems like a much more reasonable price, but still I'd have suspected closer to like, 1c or 50i per kg since you can literally use waste dye
[00:19:58] <Archaed> Given thats technically an exploit, I doubt it's a good going rate
[00:21:07] <Felinas> Well sadly it's the mechanics that dictate that
[00:21:21] <Archaed> well thats what a bug is
[00:21:25] <Archaed> unintended mechanics
[00:21:33] <Archaed> and taking advantage of that is exploiting a bug
[00:21:46] <Archaed> im not saying "rar you're an exploiter you're gonna get banned"
[00:21:51] <Felinas> Well what is not fixing a bug you know exists?
[00:21:55] <Archaed> im saying its something that needs addressing
[00:22:17] <Felinas> Well see that's my point, as long as you leave it in the game people are going to get used to its presence
[00:22:41] <Archaed> But that suggests that every bug can instantly be fixed and each update should have no bugs
[00:23:36] <Felinas> In a more professional environment I'd have a pretty compelling argument to back that up, but not applicable here
[00:23:49] <Felinas> You also can't expect players to not-use a function they dont even know is unintended
[00:23:52] <Archaed> I would completely disagree
[00:24:02] <Archaed> Because every development environment has bugs
[00:24:06] <Archaed> it's why bug trackers asa whole exist
[00:24:13] <Felinas> Yes but a production environment does not
[00:24:25] <Felinas> Bugs are for test and development, exactly as you said
[00:24:53] <Archaed> I mean, sure on paper
[00:25:08] <Archaed> But the reality of any live environment is that bugs happen
[00:25:16] <Archaed> some are able to be fixed faster than others
[00:26:55] <Felinas> Sure, I'm not here to argue programming habits, y'all will do as you please
[00:27:20] <Archaed> dont get me wrong, its the nature of the beast, I think the best resolution would be lowering the difficulty or making it easier to make high quality black
[00:27:31] <Archaed> which would render pre-existing stock moot
[00:27:37] <Archaed> and also be a huge boon in dyemaking in general
[00:28:24] <Felinas> Sounds good to me :) thanks for the clarification

 

 

"Unintended mechanic, but will not be ninja fixed."

 

Given that it was 'ninja fixed' and there was no prior warning, the theories sort of write themselves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well prior warning would definitely not be a thing. Exploits tend to be addressed quietly, I had discussed multiple options with that very person, but given the nature of the fix it was decided to be done quietly. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Retrograde said:

Well prior warning would definitely not be a thing. Exploits tend to be addressed quietly, I had discussed multiple options with that very person, but given the nature of the fix it was decided to be done quietly.

 

Which directly contradicts what you said in the copied logs.

Edited by Delacroix

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd appreciate if you would refrain from accusing contracted members of the dev team of abusing exploits to get a bit of dye - it's absurd and really does not lend itself to a civil conversation.

 

A lot can change in a year, and while Retrograde may have been unsure if it's an exploit when talking about it a year ago, we have deemed it one now and fixed it.

 

Exploit fixes often do not end up in patch notes, due to their sensitive nature, but we always look at it case by case and we've added it as a patch note now as we've not expected this to be such a widespread issue - it's our fault for not fixing this earlier, but we'll always act on obvious exploits that pop up, no matter how long they have been a thing in the game. There will not be prior announcements of exploit fixes either, for reasons I think everyone can understand. 

  • Like 3
  • Cat 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Samool said:

I'd appreciate if you would refrain from accusing contracted members of the dev team of abusing exploits to get a bit of dye - it's absurd and really does not lend itself to a civil conversation.

 

A lot can change in a year, and while Retrograde may have been unsure if it's an exploit when talking about it a year ago, we have deemed it one now and fixed it.

 

Exploit fixes often do not end up in patch notes, due to their sensitive nature, but we always look at it case by case and we've added it as a patch note now as we've not expected this to be such a widespread issue - it's our fault for not fixing this earlier, but we'll always act on obvious exploits that pop up, no matter how long they have been a thing in the game. There will not be prior announcements of exploit fixes either, for reasons I think everyone can understand. 

 

I for one am always happy when unintended game play is fix and understand when there's a small Dev team sometimes more important fixes happen first.

 

Since I joined wurm I always new there was a way to make Black dye that wasn't the way it should be, don't know how it was done, but it seemed to be common knowledge, also i was told that white dye doesnt work the way it should either and sometimes when using white it would end up transparent instead of real white, reason I stayed away from dyes as from an outsider looking in it seemed broken to some degree.

 

So my question is, is it all fixed?

 

If i make white dye will items turn white? , I had an explorer hat that was dyed white and it was a lovely brown colour not white, but the icon on character screen was white. really want that hat for my beekeeping outfit.

Edited by Badvoc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think this is not an exploit and there is a science behind it to prove it. Exploit is something that let you gain advantage in using the system in an unexpected undesigned way. First there were no advantage - only persons I know who sold dark dyes were Zarame and Retrograde, and there are no hundreds of RGB 1 1 1 ships to sail around the Wurm world, and black ship doesn't give any extra speed or skill gain. 

 

Black is not a real colour, it is a mixture of colours that cause the resulting solution (a dye) to absorb all or nearby all visible light spectrum. Each substance has the wavelength or wavelengths they absorb with a lot higher efficiency than all others, we call them maximum absorption wavelengths or absorption peaks. Right after absorption there is also emission, part of energy is dissipated (wasted) and the light is a subject to Stokes's shift - the energy of emitted light, that goes to our eyes is lower, therefore wavelength is higher, so if something absorbs blue light you may see it as green, yellow etc. (how big is the shift depends on substance atomic structure or chemical composition if this is a mixture). This is why you need light to see things. 

 

However, how much light will be absorbed from a beam going through the substance depends on its molar extinction coefficient (MEC or epsilon), substances with very low MEC absorb (and therefore emits) a small amount of light and their colour is faint. This is why we have shades of colours and more or less intensive colours.

 

And here is the meritum: substances with intensive colours have highest MEC, substances that are pitch black have the highest possible MEC from all the substances that can be seen by an unarmed human eye. 

 

Absorbance (the measure of ability to absorb light), like pH, is a logarithm and a function of MEC, concentration, light path and therefore transmittance (ability to pass the light "unharmed") described by the Lambert-Beer law, so you need to add a lot of other colour to destroy the "blackness". The resulting RGB will never be a simple sum or weighted average of the components used. Therefore, the fact that you just need a little perfect black dye to lower the RGB values of another colour for every person who worked with dyes (even in elementary school at art lessons), spectrophotometry or at least has some grasp of basic physics, was expected, correct behaviour.

 

It is a similar thing as the channelling issues - if a lot of people know it, including the development team and it became a part of a game play and the game culture that is complies to the game logic (and the dyes also complies to IRL physics) it cannot be treated like an ordinary bug.

 

I built an important aspect of my game play on this feature (and I am not the only one, there are many other players using their own colour themes), it shouldn't be taken away and at least not in a way it was done. No to mention this is my knarr advertisement that caused it, so I am the one who blame for this. 

 

And still my questions remain:

1. What is the point of introducing an item which no one can make even after a very long time?

2. What is the problem with the possibility of players painting their items to the colours they want? Why nerf that? Why colour runes require absurdly high-priced moonmetals, and they fail badly AND are pseudo-random, I got pink 11 times, green like 6 times, purple like 8 times and out of 40 runes I got no black, and even if I got black it would probably fail the attachment. A black wagon gives me no advantage in game and runes that gives the advantage are made from cheap metals and you always know what you will get. 

 

By doing such changes in the way described above you put us, players and customers in a very uncomfortable situation, many of us bought the yearly subscriptions, I know extreme cases who bought the subscription for a two or more years, and now we have no idea what other important features that brought us here and makes us enjoy our game will be suddenly considered an "exploit" and drastically nerfed. This makes us frustrated and sad and you surely do not enjoy reading complaints on forums as well. 

Edited by Platyna
  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Samool said:

I'd appreciate if you would refrain from accusing contracted members of the dev team of abusing exploits to get a bit of dye - it's absurd and really does not lend itself to a civil conversation.

 

A lot can change in a year, and while Retrograde may have been unsure if it's an exploit when talking about it a year ago, we have deemed it one now and fixed it.

 

Exploit fixes often do not end up in patch notes, due to their sensitive nature, but we always look at it case by case and we've added it as a patch note now as we've not expected this to be such a widespread issue - it's our fault for not fixing this earlier, but we'll always act on obvious exploits that pop up, no matter how long they have been a thing in the game. There will not be prior announcements of exploit fixes either, for reasons I think everyone can understand. 

 

@Samool While I do agree no one should be accused on a wrong doing without a proof, this is a delicate and controversial case - the market is, or rather was, controlled by two persons, a player and a developer. Player was selling a dye a lot better than a developer, so here is something that in law or in science is called a conflict of interests (CoI doesn't mean X or Y did anything wrong). In short, even I know (and I am an ASD person so PR and diplomacy is definitely not my thing) that "people will talk", they do now - I found out about this nerf from other players.

 

There is a multiple evidence that staff knew about this feature and even used it, there is a chat log where a high level of dev team comforts a player that it is a game mechanism quirk (these are to be expected in a discovery game) and will not be nerfed. 

 

Not to mention I do play 5 months and I just posted a ship sale and I got in the middle of this, and don't like it, I also do not appreciate the ability complete my collection being so abruptly removed from me. 

 

My petition to the dev team:

1. Change status from bug to feature (above I have explained that this actually was working like it should do), this is done in IT every day.

2. Make the recipe public, so other people can use it and compete on a free market with old players. This is not 100% speed rune, it is just a dye and even with the previous feature restored, it still requires high skill and high quality materials. 

3. Please consult such changes with us, we are fans not enemies, let's work together to make the game better, more profitable for you and more pleasant for us. This wasn't a data corruption, privilege gain or otherwise serious issue, it just let us make nice black dye and as it was proven by several people above - it was well known. We really have to trust each other for optimal results. 

 

 

Thank you for your consideration.  

Edited by Platyna

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, Platyna said:

First there were no advantage - only persons I know who sold dark dyes were Zarame and Retrograde

Some time ago i posted a wtb for some, whenever the argument about if its possible to get enough to dye a knarr with was, and i got 7 pm's within half an hour looking at my logs, and that's not including people who weren't on, people who only used it for personal benefit, and people not watching trade chat.

56 minutes ago, Platyna said:

1. What is the point of introducing an item which no one can make even after a very long time?

I've made 1-1-1 dye by spam creating black dye in the past, it's entirely possible. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yesterday I have checked with Zarame if it is possible to make, he used best ql ingredients and got 83 83 83, and it wasn't possible to get it to lower than 28 28 28. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, this change is terrible.

Customization using wood types and dye options is something that sets Wurm aside from a lot of other games that try to offer similar.

Please let us continue personalizing our items.

Don't penalize the population as a whole because of the behaviors of a few individuals, give us an alternative that is reasonable, if there is truley an exploit involved.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Platyna a game developer has deemed this wasn't intended I think he knows better. You say it had no in game effects but then go on about how the market was controlled by 2 people and even said you yourself had spent a kings ransom on said dyes, so I disagree and think it did have an effect in game and people made good coins from it.

 

 I hope the Dev team will take a good look at the whole Dye system making sure its working as it should giving the players the chance to make a wide range of colours, and if its not working like it should ( with skills and QL items should get pure black ) it should be fixed to give high skilled players the chance.

 

Just because a bug has been in game a long time doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed one day.

 

Also Retro from what I understand isn't a game developer / Coder but is the Community Relations Coordinator, sort of the go between and PR guy, something he said off the bat ages ago while playing isn't the same as a game coder saying today it isn't intended, just be pleased you got to use some of the said dye when you had the chance.

 

I fully expect the game team will look at this if the colours are broken and fix it.

 

Wurm is by far imo the best sandbox game there is and I can happily live with a few kinks now and then and remember change happens what was fine years ago doesn't mean its fine now, plenty of changes and updates all the time.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The dye making system works, black is 40 difficulty and by far the hardest to make. 

 

I never said it was not an exploit. 

 

The exploit is not creating black dye from the materials, but in using 0.001g of black dye to make 270kgs of black dye darker. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, i do have a very high Natural substances skill. Been using 90ql acorn to make tanin and using 80+ ql on tanin from a hight number of tests on 100ql iron i could only make 77ql dye at best. Making it easier to archieve 90+ ql black or  1 to 10 rgb black would be the best for everyone. I dont mind the trick being removed.but i would also like to be able to combine acorn, chochineals or woad and make a barrel at once. Or a cauldron. Same like green dye can be made or white.  Then it would be easier to get lucky and get a nice black done in high ammount in one go. Or any other color. Or at least let us mix iron into dye to lower rgb, and zinc into it to raise rgb. Mainly thought useless it would make sense now. We may not be able to make 1.1.1 black anymore due to the system that works like this  155+ material ql - ammount of dye made. Thats why i mix 1 to 10 ql at most when i wand some 240 red or green or blue. Otherwise we cannot get to it.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Retrograde said:

The dye making system works, black is 40 difficulty and by far the hardest to make. 

 

I never said it was not an exploit. 

 

The exploit is not creating black dye from the materials, but in using 0.001g of black dye to make 270kgs of black dye darker. 

 

You said that:

10 hours ago, Delacroix said:

[00:07:47] <Archaed> Well I'd be happy to clarify, and can guarantee no ninja fixes to it

 

10 hours ago, Delacroix said:

[00:09:04] <Archaed> I think I know of the method you're using, it is unintended, and zero ninja fixes

 

10 hours ago, Delacroix said:

[00:09:30] <Archaed> Rather see black easier to make than exploitable

 

10 hours ago, Delacroix said:

[00:12:52] <Archaed> It's hard to argue it;s intended mechanics

 

You are a community relations coordinator - "our" man in the dev team, you should be on our side, how we are supposed to trust you if you comfort us that it won't be ninja fixed and it gets ninja fixed? Such changes give no gain to the game economy, and they cause so much distrust and drama, also you are very old player and very high on NS so this change affects you directly. And while it is understandable that 0.001g RGB dye shouldn't make the 270 kg of dye RGB 1 1 1, the solution for it should be worked out and adjusted after the consultation with other high NS players, it shouldn't be also that you mix RGB 1 1 1 with RGB 83 83 83 in 1:1 and you get just 28 28 28. Why nerf economy and skill gain neutral item customization at all? I don't understand this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Iti clearly did state it was an exploit and it was treated as such, which mean no public notes until after the update. 

 

Mixing 1:1 of those numbers should make 42,42,42. 

 

It works as it is, you just need high quality materials and high skill as intended. Mine is gained from a lot of tannin and iron, literally thousands. This isn't devaluing skills, this is addressing a simple bug in the code that made this possible. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also as a dye system explanation.

 

Dye is based on rgb value from 0 to 255. 

As 1 being black to 255 being white. 

 

With the 100ql cap of ql in wurm. 1 to 100 rgb is considered black. While 155 to 255 is considered white or colors.

 

Mixing material into dye works as this formula  155+mats ql- dye weight

 

 

So 1ql chochineals mixed into 1.1.1 black on a 45kg ammount will make it at best R110 G1 B1 at best. Higher ql resources will make it go up using the above formula. That gives you control over rgb you want to create. Will use loads of mats to make a huge ammount of yelow for example. While it can be done from 50ql green. It will use about 200 chochineals to reach the yelow color.

 

With the trick being removed using black as a base to make some darker colors is very dificult. As if you need a 50ql black base is not easy to get.

 

Done loads of dye over the years. Since i made dye ingame from the second year of gameplay, meaning around 9 years.

 

Now you guys know how its made

 

Needs resources of ql range from 1 to 100. Meaning a high mining skill for iron, coper and zinc. gardening for woad, butchering skill and most likelly imbued and runed knife for chochineala, also forestry for the acorns. In top of that you will need a high ns to get decent colors out.

 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this