Sign in to follow this  
Andru

Technically Griefing???

Recommended Posts

So I've come to realize that a lot of people ... almost compulsively make alts. I've been in two villages so far and it's pretty wild how many alts some of these people had... and while I look down upon it since I view it as unimmersive for both that person and others playing with them, it's still just whatever.

Now what I heard in the chat though, and what I guess occurs a lot, is people making alts just to deed areas. So I was just wondering, if the biggest complaint the devs saw in their negative reviews and all that, is that there isn't enough land to claim... and someone is actively making alts just to hog more land (that they aren't even using) with deeds, wouldn't that technically be griefing?  If you can't find an area to build, and all the land is claimed so you can't use it or play, isn't that unwanted distress?

 

It just leads to a lot of claimed land with no players on it.. since no one can use it.

 

Just a thought.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is no way to distinguish between "main" and "alt". That is a choice of the player which may change anytime. Many players from the old servers started a character ("making an alt") on the southern cluster.

 

Generally, there is no rule against planting deeds by any account, even a free to play one. It is certainly no griefing by itself. The obsession of land control is not forbidden in Wurm, which is a sandbox game allowing for a wide variety of playstyles. Somebody creating a settlement has to pay silver for, she is not obliged to build on immediately, or be present all time. It is, by the way, hard to judge who is present unless you monitor an area 24 hours a day the whole week. Many players play a few hours per day, some only during the weekends.

 

So, indeed, it is no griefing at all to make an alt, and none to create a settlement. There will be a new server soon, so much of the demand for land will be sufficed.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The biggest source of negative reviews appears to be all the people who got themselves banned using the opportunity to crap on wurms parade. 

 

And every alt character that holds a deed involves a paid-for deed (and probably a paid premium, at least once), so it's not like people aren't paying for the land they're claiming.  Whether someone pays for 1 100x20 deed or 5 20x20 deeds, they're still paying the same amount.

  • Like 11

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do this.  I make alts and I claim deeds.  I'm not out to grief anyone and honestly, there is so much unclaimed land, it is crazy.  Problem is, people seem to want beach front land and if they don't see some after 5 min of searching, they get disappointed.  So there is now a new server launching that is almost all beach.  Odd looking for sure, but that solves the problem.  On Harmony, I ride around for hours and hours in the interior and see just untouched undeeded lands.  Fantastic places to deed.  Just not wet.

 

Anyway, I help keep the game rolling with my alts, deeds and silver purchases.  Never once have I actively tried to make the game less fun for any other players.  Usually just the opposite.  I leverage my alts and deeds to help where I can.

  • Like 11

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its not an abuse or griefing but it is an issue.

People do make alts and deeds at good places to either sell them later or just to claim land for later when the servers connect or for other reasons, while having no intention of really playing there

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, nitram20 said:

Its not an abuse or griefing but it is an issue.

People do make alts and deeds at good places to either sell them later or just to claim land for later when the servers connect or for other reasons, while having no intention of really playing there

 

It is hard to decide whether such happens at all, and even harder to judge about other players' intentions. A player who has only limited time to play, and not on your timezone, may never be visible to you, and show very limited progress so that the deed may appear uninhabited. But in a sandbox game, every playstyle is "really playing". It may be bothersome if too much land is deeded, I would not like that either. Those who do not like it should consider the southern cluster, and the devs should make emigration possible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Where other games try to discourage or outright ban alts, this game almost requires them.  I have never used alts in any game, including Wurm, and have no intention of doing so, but I know that this means that there are some aspects of the game I will never access.  I simply accept that limitation - although I would like to be able to build little bridges myself (for ramps and connecting buildings etc).

 

Given that alts are a necessary part of some of the gameplay, the bonuses and impediments are just something to live with.  I don't know that players with multi-deeds are necessarily all that much of a problem, but if they are then that's just the way it is and it won't be fixed without a ground-up rebuild of many complex game dynamics - which at best would be a risky proposition.

Edited by TheTrickster

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No i'm sorry but it is griefing.

 

Not every player wants to play the exact same way.

 

Even right now "Felinesalome" and his alts just dropped a deed right next to my hut to cut down trees and kill the bears.

 

They are absolutely abusing this mechanics just because they are rich and don't care about wasting money to ruin the experience for other players.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was actually having fun and excited to play Wurm for the long term. I bought some silver and was investing into the community and economy, but it is obvious that this kind of thing is the norm. No concern for new players or other player styles, placing deeds to block access and farming for players, especially new players.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The dev is here actually.. hang on. Man this is so upsetting

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

 I simply accept that limitation - although I would like to be able to build little bridges myself (for ramps and connecting buildings etc).

 

 

You don't need an alt to plan a bridge, just plant the rangepole.

 

Edit: At least that is how I recall it, or is that WU? Wurmpedia says nothing about it.

Edited by Cecci

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, it is not griefing.

 

There is no realistically fair way to distinguish between an "alt" and a "main" when it comes to ingame accounts, due to the fact the game allows ownership of more than a single account.

They have as much a right to any plot of land they deed over as anyone else in the game.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whether or not you can enforce it, it doesn't change that it falls within the purviews of the technical explanation of what griefing is.

1 person has as much of a right to take all of the plots and ruin the experience for new players?
 

Isn't the whole reason you are opening cadence by you guys own words because there is no land available and that is the biggest complaint in the reviews? Shouldn't all players have a right to enjoy the game or have a piece of land?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I'm not saying to ban or take enforcement action against everyone with an alt hogging land but lets be honest a lot of the time it isn't done in a way that is beneficial to the community.

 

There ARE players who do it in a positive way, like expand perimeter and allow building on it so people can actually play the game but there is absolutely a subset of the population that is doing it intentionally to ruin the experience of other players

Edited by Andru

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not all people who make alts to own many deeds are doing it to be jerks. Whilst yes, I'm sure there are actually people doing so to annoy people, make them upset or run them out of town, there's mostly people who've put down the deeds because a) they can and b) they want to. If they haven't given thought to "oh what about the people who wander through here?" That's not really "greifing" . They don't have to let people use their land if they don't want to.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Andru said:

No concern for new players or other player styles, placing deeds to block access and farming for players, especially new players.

 

I am sorry your experience has been soured, but this sort of thing is definitely NOT the norm that I have experienced.  It doesn't seem to be the norm for many others, either.  Maybe it's just those weird northerners.  Come south; we don't bite nearly so much.

 

I can guarantee you that our mayor would give you a free house or plot of land to build one and let you do whatever is you want to do - even if that's to go off in the wilderness and build-it-yourself you can have a fall-back base in town.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Cecci said:

You don't need an alt to plan a bridge, just plant the rangepole.

 

Edit: At least that is how I recall it, or is that WU? Wurmpedia says nothing about it.

 

 

WU I think.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, nitram20 said:

Its not an abuse or griefing but it is an issue.

People do make alts and deeds at good places to either sell them later or just to claim land for later when the servers connect or for other reasons, while having no intention of really playing there

While people do sell deeds from time to time, my experience has been that deeds generally sell for less than they cost to plant and build.  I've not seen a market in claiming land especially to sell, mainly because there always seems to be other options if the spot you looked at first wasn't available.  Also, rather like Lego, the fun of Wurm (in my opinion) is the building and the journey, rather than the finished destination - one of the key reasons so many vets have flocked to the new servers is the chance to build everything all over again, because that's the fun part.  Jackal showed a very similar trend, in that regard.

 

People griefing does happen, but it's the exception rather than the norm.  To the OP, using a second character to plant a deed is not, in and of itself, griefing; griefing may involve planting a deed, but that's specific to the situation, and irrellevant to which character was used to plant the deed.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Pandalet said:

People griefing does happen, but it's the exception rather than the norm.  To the OP, using a second character to plant a deed is not, in and of itself, griefing; griefing may involve planting a deed, but that's specific to the situation, and irrellevant to which character was used to plant the deed.

 

I wholeheartedly agree. To add, the perception of the GM what constitutes griefing is ways narrower than the average players' perspective, and even more an individual player's suffering from activities in the vicinity.

 

To elaborate: Somebody hacking down the fruit tree orchard, and the oaks and willows you planted in your perimeter and beyond, does not necessarily constitute griefing, and won't be treated by the GM as such, even if that is certainly rude and inappropriate behaviour. Only when evil intent to cause harm can be proven (which is far from easy), this will possibly be considered griefing. The GM will  then try a mediation, hearing both sides, and in best case issue a warning or reprimand towards the offender. In fact, as ugly as such behaviour may appear, it is not against the rules, normally. There is the sweep clause "play nicely, or we rip your head off", sure. But in reality, this clause is rarely enforced, and not with ripping heads off :) .

 

So well, try to live with the situation unless you find a better place to settle. If that player is malevolent, ignore him, that will starve his evil intent while outrage and pain displayed will feed it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Andru said:

Whether or not you can enforce it, it doesn't change that it falls within the purviews of the technical explanation of what griefing is.

1 person has as much of a right to take all of the plots and ruin the experience for new players?
 

Isn't the whole reason you are opening cadence by you guys own words because there is no land available and that is the biggest complaint in the reviews? Shouldn't all players have a right to enjoy the game or have a piece of land?

 

The way I see it, there are 2 key things here you need to understand:

 

1) If you own the deed, you have control over what happens inside of it.

2) If you don't own the land, you don't have control over what happens. You can manipulate it, but you don't have full control.

 

Therefore, I act accordingly. When I planted my deed, I immediately created a big perimeter so I could expand it. It allowed me to get control of the area I want and if anything happens around it, so be it. If you expect people not to do things on land you don't own, you're likely in for a bad time. There are people out there who are going to be dicks. It's the same as in any MMO.

Edited by Yumi
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have an alt holding a second deed to reserve the space for future development. I had another alt, with a third deed placed to protect road work. That deed has since come down now that the work is done and a guard tower installed. 

 

None of this was done to grief anyone, but I adhere to the "deed it or lose it" policy.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@EkcinDestroying people fields and orchards is griefing. And I know multiple causes where GMs ruled so (as they should). We are not talking about cutting one or two trees or cultivating one or two tiles, but a total vandalism. How do you imagine playing on a PvE server with a possibility that someone will destroy your work? Deeds AFAIR are optional. It is not always easy to identify a perpetrator, so deed it or lose it still applies, but this doesn't translate to "destroy whatever is not deeded and get away with it". 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 8/19/2020 at 1:42 PM, Beanbag said:

I have an alt holding a second deed to reserve the space for future development. I had another alt, with a third deed placed to protect road work. That deed has since come down now that the work is done and a guard tower installed. 

 

None of this was done to grief anyone, but I adhere to the "deed it or lose it" policy.

 


This isn't what I'm referring to, I understand what you're saying.

 

What I'm referring to is if you started work, and someone logs an alt and places a deed directly on what you have planned... not because they want the spot, but specifically to create a worse experience for you.

 

On 8/19/2020 at 12:46 PM, Yumi said:

 

The way I see it, there are 2 key things here you need to understand:

 

1) If you own the deed, you have control over what happens inside of it.

2) If you don't own the land, you don't have control over what happens. You can manipulate it, but you don't have full control.

 

Therefore, I act accordingly. When I planted my deed, I immediately created a big perimeter so I could expand it. It allowed me to get control of the area I want and if anything happens around it, so be it. If you expect people not to do things on land you don't own, you're likely in for a bad time. There are people out there who are going to be dicks. It's the same as in any MMO.

On 8/19/2020 at 3:46 PM, Platyna said:

@EkcinDestroying people fields and orchards is griefing. And I know multiple causes where GMs ruled so (as they should). We are not talking about cutting one or two trees or cultivating one or two tiles, but a total vandalism. How do you imagine playing on a PvE server with a possibility that someone will destroy your work? Deeds AFAIR are optional. It is not always easy to identify a perpetrator, so deed it or lose it still applies, but this doesn't translate to "destroy whatever is not deeded and get away with it". 

 

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. People intentionally destroying your hard work for no reason other than to create a negative experience for the community.

 

 

I never said I expect people to actually be considerate or to think of others that use an area, that would be absolutely absurd! To be considerate to your other players? To maybe think about sizing down your deed 1 square and leaving the last bit as perimeter so a new player could maybe try to make a 1x1 shack with the trees in a completely covered area!?

 

God forbid you think maybe about a new player, or other players when you do something in a sandbox!

 

 

There's definitely a point where it's going beyond normal playing and is directly impacting the experience of others.

Edited by Andru

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

i spent 260 euros last month on this game to prem may new main and 4 alts one per faith and a ton of silver. to deed and start buying things i'm to lazy to do myself. i paid over 30s to other players in the first 2 weeks of harmony helping start the economy.  I did deed 4 area, a main deed, a small market deed, that i waited a week to see if anyone would deed the water area by my main deed.  and the other 2 deeds. i have huge plans for. being near a starter deed. i also helped build about 300-400 tiles worth of highways for new and old players to use. there was a good amount of time between deeding each deed also. so there was chances for others to deed around me.

 

one could see i have the 4 deeds and only 2 with some development and call me a land hog...  but only I know my plans. i dont feel i did this as a land grab. as i will develop  the land, been  playing 10 yrs. very addicted.  but i have run into new players and help them out often.  if someone like you were near by i'd even let you toss a home on one of my deeds that i dont plan on working on for a while and let you live there safely.  i pay a lot into this game over the years.  i cant say how much as if my wife finds out, i'll loose my computer. lol over 3k usd $ . shhh.   not that i feel spending money = right to grief anyone ever.  but i feel a little offended at first reading the OP post, playing with alts i've done so since 2010. never felt is was wrong until today...

 

but when i saw later you said you started developing the area and they deeded it. that was wrong to me too. but only if you were online enough to be found. 

 

before i deeded my last 2 deeds, there were tents.  i waited until i saw the tents decay to 90% before deeding. and i left it in the perimeter so they could collect their things if they came back. then i finished expanding.   (there is oddly a tent at 100% on one of my deeds i think they put it down at the same time i deeded. was odd, they never logged back on and its still there 100% lol) 

 

owning alts and multiple deeds. though ,  this game gains a lot of money from that.  if the devs had a way to pull up how many of us have alts and how much silver sinks in from that. i'd bet 1/4 if not 1/2 the revenue comes for those players and alts. 

 

i say this with love,  join us and forget about that guy or gal that did that to you. most of us are good and will welcome you  to our area. don't give up. 

 

I hope you stick with this game.  tones of land inland ,can build a well for water. and a ship transport to go to water to sail later on also.  plus the new land opening .if your ready to invest in the game.  99% of the player base is a good community and never grief on purpose at least.   maybe join a deed for a bit. enjoy the company.

 

lol wow long post sorry. 

Edited by validate
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, validate said:

i spent 260 euros last month on this game to prem may new main and 4 alts one per faith and a ton of silver. to deed and start buying things i'm to lazy to do myself. i paid over 30s to other players in the first 2 weeks of harmony helping start the economy.  I did deed 4 area, a main deed, a small market deed, that i waited a week to see if anyone would deed the water area by my main deed.  and the other 2 deeds. i have huge plans for. being near a starter deed. i also helped build about 300-400 tiles worth of highways for new and old players to use. there was a good amount of time between deeding each deed also. so there was chances for others to deed around me.

 

one could see i have the 4 deeds and only 2 with some development and call me a land hog...  but only I know my plans. i dont feel i did this as a land grab. as i will develop  the land, been  playing 10 yrs. very addicted.  but i have run into new players and help them out often.  if someone like you were near by i'd even let you toss a home on one of my deeds that i dont plan on working on for a while and let you live there safely.  i pay a lot into this game over the years.  i cant say how much as if my wife finds out, i'll loose my computer. lol over 3k usd $ . shhh.   not that i feel spending money = right to grief anyone ever.  but i feel a little offended at first reading the OP post, playing with alts i've done so since 2010. never felt is was wrong until today...

 

but when i saw later you said you started developing the area and they deeded it. that was wrong to me too. but only if you were online enough to be found. 

 

before i deeded my last 2 deeds, there were tents.  i waited until i saw the tents decay to 90% before deeding. and i left it in the perimeter so they could collect their things if they came back. then i finished expanding.   (there is oddly a tent at 100% on one of my deeds i think they put it down at the same time i deeded. was odd, they never logged back on and its still there 100% lol) 

 

owning alts and multiple deeds. though ,  this game gains a lot of money from that.  if the devs had a way to pull up how many of us have alts and how much silver sinks in from that. i'd bet 1/4 if not 1/2 the revenue comes for those players and alts. 

 

i say this with love,  join us and forget about that guy or gal that did that to you. most of us are good and will welcome you  to our area. don't give up. 

 

I hope you stick with this game.  tones of land inland ,can build a well for water. and a ship transport to go to water to sail later on also.  plus the new land opening .if your ready to invest in the game.  99% of the player base is a good community and never grief on purpose at least.   maybe join a deed for a bit. enjoy the company.

 

lol wow long post sorry. 

 

I was there, actively trying to help them finish the road they couldn't even pave, because they built it in perimeter. After they insulted me repeatedly, I asked them to please leave me alone, then he walked over to where my shack was, and plopped a deed and placed it, covering all of the usable area, including the small path i was making.


The next deed owner I was trying to be considerate to myself, by NOT placing a deed, because I knew he used that forest, told me he absolutely would not provide them access to make a road there. I talked with the GMs and actively worked to try and help them find another path for their road, and we found one to the side into tundra, but again, even that wouldn't have mattered. they would have gotten further but Lance said he absolutely would not be providing them access.

After all this, they came back and cut down the oak i was trying to protect while i was building a fence around it, and left a cross saying "RIP Oak"

Then continued to insult me, and the GMs handling of the event in local chat.


 

 

Edited by Andru

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this