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Ismira

This game is going to DIE!

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I'm not a veteran player at all, but i'm not exactly 'new' (been playing on and off for maybe 1 year total playtime, and i have a new toon in Melody), so allow me to offer my perspective as someone who plays casually for fun..  Be warned, its long...

 

Im sure as you can see, as everyone has been telling you, the only reason price in the new servers are high is just that, because everything is new, and thing are way harder to make in a new server. Sooner or later, price will come down, you can actually start to see that happening even right now.

 

Just to give you an perspective:

i recently skilled blacksmithing in my main toon in xanadu 1 month ago, and now im doing the same thing in melody.

 

Xanadu:

i paid 1s in total for some decent BOTD tools, got some free 50ql iron ores from neighbors ( they don't even consider those QL worth keeping).

Then i went on just proceed with creating 50 or so horseshoees and imp them non-stop to aorund 50ql. 

it took me maybe 3-4 days of intermittent play to get from maybe 20+ BS to 50BS.

it was really easy and straightforward. As i already pointed out, i can get enchanted tools for cheap, i can get the raw material very easily (i'm sure if i were to pay for them i could get maybe 1k of 70ql iron lumps for 1s), and i have a bed, for free sleep bonus, not forgetting occasional mission and rites for free sleep bonuses.

 

 

Now contrast that with my new toon is melody:

I cant really find any decent tools at decent price, and so i created my own tools for BS, i am curently using a set of 30-40ql iron tools i made myself.

Then i have to mine my own irons, skilling my mining skill as i go. i did get some free iron lump ( around 20-30 lumps of 30-40ql) from a fellow villager, but even then it's not easy as ppl dont really have thousands of disposable ores at this point of time in the new server)

Then i have to skill my own blacksmithing WITHOUT any enchanted tool (they are too expensive FOR NOW), and with little sleep bonus.

Im now around 35 in blacksmithing, in a week. and the whole time i only skill on blacksmithing.

 

 

 

 

So, now imagine if i were to sell my products, say a set of 50ql tools in both market, would the price be different?

Of course! As its clear from my example that the effort it takes is different, it way easier for anyone to skill and create those items in the old server, as the infrasturcture and facility to skill and create items of that level has been around for years.. what i can make in 10 mins in Xanadu, others in the same server can make them in maybe 2 mins. the same item would take me probably an hour to make in Melody. Most importantly, everyone is Xan already have waaay better horseshoes that i can make!

In the new server, at the moment, ppl are still skilling their toons, and the facility and infrastruture for proper skilling is not yet fully set up for everyone (eg: bed, high ql tools, high ql etc)

So if someone manage to create something of decent quality in the first week or so, will the price be higher? Of coz, as they're still not easy to come by.

 

 

 

As for argument of price gouging... is it really tho?

if im the first to create those items, of coz i will try to sell it high, it is only fair for my hard labour, and for being 'the first'. Will ppl pay an exorbitant price for those items? you bet they would. there's plenty of rich players that would pay thru their nose just to have the 'best items' in game. People who are actively grinding to stay ahead will often pay to get even a minimal advantage. Is the price worth it? only the buyer can tell you that, after all, the buyer determines the worth, no one is forcing someone else to buy anything.

 

However, i can tell you that for sure, those price would not stay for long. its a luxury to have a 50ql tool maybe in week one, or two, but trust me, but the end of the month, it will be common place. So those players who paid the high price, they're essentially paying for early access to those thing ( and they should know that). 

As ppl skill up the toons, and create proper set-up for their skilling, the supply will increase, and the price will drop. expect to see the item price drop soon. this is true for this game, its true for any game, even in real world.

 

TL,DR: Rest assured, if you think the items prices are high now, just wait for a week or so, you'll find cheaper price.. as long as you understand the concept of why the items as priced the way they are, you would be fine.

Are people overcharging? they likely are. Should they? its debatable. Should you be forced to pay for such a high price? of coz not. you dont need a 70ql tool or a knarr 'to play the game' in 1st month of the server.

Remember, no one is really forcing anyone to buy anything. If you want the absolute best currenlty available, it will cost you. But if you wait for sometimes, something better will come along, and the previously 'best' item will be cheaper..

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3 hours ago, Flubb said:

I'm needling a bit, but the economy is broken because other people won't pay for your subscription fee easily?

 

No, I was just trying to apply some kind of scale to measure an economy - it's not the real world so I was trying for something internally consistent but also somewhat analogous to real life.  I went for a form of "making a living", as in "living costs" being premium sub, so would I be work just to survive to work or would I earn the kind of income where a couple of hours would do me for a week.  It was just a handy reference point.

 

 

3 hours ago, Flubb said:

Avoid the market for the time being by doing your own thing and asking villagers for help, works perfectly for me.

 

That is also pretty much what I am doing.  Actually, I m probably one step removed as I will probably not do much in the north at all for the time being.

 

In the meantime, I might encourage those who dislike the current market to park their Boreal toon and fly south for the winter.

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If you think "do it yourself" is not the meaning of Wurm you missed the point.

 

Wurm will not hold your hand. If you think these things are overpriced and yet you aren't even willing to do the work of either creating and selling them for what you deem reasonable, or even putting together some friends to help you do it (imagine what you and those 10 people you convinced the game is broken could do) then -you- don't know the meaning of Wurm.

Edited by Beanbag

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12 hours ago, Silvanoshaya said:

3 newbs I know of quit as they saw the trade as pay to play or spend 5 years grinding

Gee, I hope those chaps don't try other mmo's, they'll never find a game to play with that reasoning

(Trade isn't the be all end all of the game)

Edited by cccdfern

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10 years ago, I first joined Independence, Since then i've bought plenty of 70-90ql weapons, over this time, it has become cheaper and cheaper to buy the same weapon at higher ql with better enchants, because there comes a point where many skilled crafters are churning them out in quantity, and dropping prices to compete with others doing the same. This is perfectly normal as servers and clusters age, skills go up, high ql resources become easier to produce, priests are more consistent and casts are high, supply soon outstrips demand.

 

In contrast, we have a brand new cluster, with low skilled players, low level resources and low skilled priests, supply is very low, and demand is very high, prices are, and always have been, as high as people are willing to pay, if you feel that prices are too high, simply don't pay for stuff, make it yourself, learn to get by with lower ql than you are used to on SFI.

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12 hours ago, Ismira said:

I will probably get negative feedback for my post because that's all I received on the newer severs for the reasons I posted above, but it needed to be said.

I think you will get negatives from ppl who exploit this situattion. But im agreed with Tor that prices will go down. Anyway I agreed with you that what is going there destabilizes economy on old servers (like whas in march when devs removed RMT and trade in some points never get back). That is my feeling too.

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As a ship builder on the old servers, I can tell you: I would never build a ship there again, because I would not give it away for the prices people pay over there. So I stopped building ships long ago, use my skill only to imp on impalongs.

 

The amount of work that goes into ship building is worth a lot more than the 50c for rowboats, 2s for corbita (or even less) and so on. 

 

And as an economist I can tell you: If prices are to high, they will not find a customer, so as long as people want to have those first corbitas or even willow tree sprouts and dont mind to pay those prices... then people can and will market their products with this price. If you would say: make a price cap for things, then it would be like first person gets the item, all others don´t. AND seller would loose interest in producing those items which, with the price cap would just be not available anymore.

 

Take the ships in my first example: If you would cap the price at 1s for a corbita for example  and all ship builder would refuse to build them anymore, then no corbitas would excist in the game. 

And for ships it is a bit like that: People buy them once. Point. If someone bought a knarr, then its probably the ship this person will have for years. So the ship selling market is florishing now but will dry out very fast.

 

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28 minutes ago, Zenity said:

10 years ago, I first joined Independence, Since then i've bought plenty of 70-90ql weapons, over this time, it has become cheaper and cheaper to buy the same weapon at higher ql with better enchants, because there comes a point where many skilled crafters are churning them out in quantity, and dropping prices to compete with others doing the same. This is perfectly normal as servers and clusters age, skills go up, high ql resources become easier to produce, priests are more consistent and casts are high, supply soon outstrips demand.

 

In contrast, we have a brand new cluster, with low skilled players, low level resources and low skilled priests, supply is very low, and demand is very high, prices are, and always have been, as high as people are willing to pay, if you feel that prices are too high, simply don't pay for stuff, make it yourself, learn to get by with lower ql than you are used to on SFI.

You cannot compare this 2 stories. Does not this same stories. Is 1 point which makes big difference - knowledge old playesrs how to use system to exploit it. For example: I play on Har (toon made on wurm page not steam, never connect toon with steam!). I Saw tons of starter junks in water, many corspes. BUt i didnt die on Har to this day. Why? I had this same skills and stuff like others. No sleep bonus No bought stuff - all made myself. What made difference? ;)

Edited by Xagru
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13 hours ago, Romadador said:

 

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Precisely. This is how it works.

I've been around for probably, I don't know... 8 or 9 years, seen these posts many times.

But I respect the OP's opinion, I just don't agree with it (and I am weary of it)

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If you're playing Wurm for its economy you're in it for the wrong reasons anyway. Not really the other 98% of the playerbase's problem if a fake 'economy' isn't playing nicely with your expectations. Best suggestion is to just play the game or don't. It's not complicated. 

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10 hours ago, Ismira said:

Okay, I want to point out that anyone that can't respond in this thread like an adult, you should leave and keep your nasty comments to yourself. I don't deserve the treatment I have been receiving from some of you. You have a right to disagree with what I say and believe, but the rude unnecessary comments are not needed.

 

 

 

Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer. I believe that applies here.

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Due to scarcity, I would think that makes the high prices totally fine. Im not playing on the new servers, but supply and demand obviously applies. A knarr is cheap on Xanadu because everyone and their dog has one, they keep getting built and as very few are going to decay, the supply is high compared to demand.

 

While on the new servers many people want a knarr, it is a ###### lot harder to make due to lack of skills and infrastructure in comparison to the old servers. So higher price tag makes sense. If you have 50 people wanting to buy something you have 1 of, you can raise the price until only a few are willing to pay the highest prices. 

 

Give it time, supply will increase and no one will be able to sell for those high prices because they will be undercut.

 

This happens in new servers on MMOs, I saw it a lot on Albion Online every time they reset the servers. Prices are ###### crazy for a while before settling down after a while. 

 

Demand for many things is the highest it will ever be, and supply at the start is zero. Things will stabilise over time. 

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Wurm's endgame is like a bubble, the higher your level the easier and cheaper are the items.

New servers have both NO high level players, AND high demand for almost all items in the game.

This is simply how it works, nothing is going to die nor explode, it is just going to settle down with time.

 

Southern isles prices are a TRENDING, not a comparison

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11 hours ago, Sirene said:

As a ship builder on the old servers, I can tell you: I would never build a ship there again, because I would not give it away for the prices people pay over there. So I stopped building ships long ago, use my skill only to imp on impalongs.

 

The amount of work that goes into ship building is worth a lot more than the 50c for rowboats, 2s for corbita (or even less) and so on. 

 

And as an economist I can tell you: If prices are to high, they will not find a customer, so as long as people want to have those first corbitas or even willow tree sprouts and dont mind to pay those prices... then people can and will market their products with this price. If you would say: make a price cap for things, then it would be like first person gets the item, all others don´t. AND seller would loose interest in producing those items which, with the price cap would just be not available anymore.

 

Take the ships in my first example: If you would cap the price at 1s for a corbita for example  and all ship builder would refuse to build them anymore, then no corbitas would excist in the game. 

And for ships it is a bit like that: People buy them once. Point. If someone bought a knarr, then its probably the ship this person will have for years. So the ship selling market is florishing now but will dry out very fast.

 

 

This is a good illustration of how the economy has collapsed in the south.  The issue in the north, however is that it isn't really just an economy where everyone has the same kind of awareness of the overall picture.  There a tons of new players for whom silver is an almost endless resource as long as you are willing to pay real money to get it (conversely, these are also the source of the people who wind up concluding "pay to win", whatever "win" means in Wurm).  

 

Picture a small island somewhere, initially deserted but opened up for settlement by those who want to get away from it all.  Postage stamps are the accepted local currency but the island does not itself produce them.  The only stamps in the economy are those that come in from outside.  Settlers arrive and because everything is in short supply and hard to make, prices are high and a lot of stamps a bought from outside to support this.  As the settlers improve infrastructure and skills, things become easier and prices drop, and nobody minds because they can produce the same stuff with much less time and effort anyway.  A new island is discovered for settlement, and many from the older island send family members over while also many new settlers arrive.  The families of the old settlers know a) that the boom is temporary and b) all the high value stuff will become readily and cheaply available before long.  The new-new settlers don't really know this as fact (they may speculate, but haven't seen it happen) and have an easy open pipeline back to the mainland to buy stamps.  They buy stamps like crazy and buy up supplies and equipment at crazy prices - some will then settle in, use their shiny purchases and get on with settlement.  Others will either run out of mainland money and begin to regret becoming have-nots, or begin to resent the perceived need to buy-buy-buy to keep up in this fine new world, and will go back to where they came from.  Some may spot the old island and rather than assume the same is happening there, stop in for a look.

Edited by TheTrickster

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This game is like Betty White. It's going to keep going just to prove you wrong.

 

Both economies are behaving appropriately. Supply and demand 101.  See an opportunity? Get on it.

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As a game that is based on months and years rather than days and weeks. Maybe it's okay for the entirety of the server not to be able to buy a knarr on week 2 when only 9 people make them. 

 

Supply will meet demand and prices will reach an equilibrium sooner than later. Plus, the more people are dumping silver into the economy via the store to buy that mediocre coc cast pic the less pay to win it will be in the long haul.

 

If anything, posts with big red letters saying the sky is falling will probably have more new players hesitant to invest time rather than a simple economics lesson.

Edited by Melros
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As several people have pointed out, it's unreasonable to open a discussion with dramatic ill-thought statements, including a brazen declaration that the game will DIE, and then complain that people are not taking you seriously. I can agree that being outright rude is wrong, but you have definitely unreasonably conflated "trolling" with "disagreeing with me," so I have to wonder how much "rudeness" is being determined by the same criteria.

 

Yes, Wurm will die, one day. All things die, one day. But Wurm has survived people proclaiming its imminent death for longer than you have played, so maybe chill out a bit?

 

I've been recently pondering writing up an amateur analysis of the economy of Wurm, the connections between different resources, etc. Maybe I'll throw it in here later, but the relevant point here is that there is are one or two significant components of Wurm that exist somewhat independent of the economy, and therefore the life or death of the economy in itself isn't necessarily an existential threat to Wurm. The first is Skills and Characteristics; while you can make leveling/grinding easier by spending silver/$$ on better tools and materials, the simple reality is that you cannot completely spend your way through the time investments required to increase your skills.

 

Secondly is the social/communal aspect. Some people have already talked around this a bit, but a central feature of Wurm is that it has no built-in or necessary end goal; what it means to "win" in Wurm is up to the players. A bunch of people who are happy to work together funding their deed with foraged coins and contributing their meager skills to the construction of their community are "winning" Wurm just as much as the 10-year-veteran who has built a castle all by themselves, or the rich kid who bought a caravel and a set of dragonscale armour with store-bought silver for their month-old toon, so long as all of the people in question are enjoying themselves, because it's a game and that's the point.

 

All of your concerns could have been raised in a constructive fashion, and maybe people would have been more inclined to cooperate with you in addressing them. But you approached this with a confrontational and demanding attitude, @Ismira, and you reaped what you sowed. But if you're ever inclined to raise the question again in a more positive light, feel free to @ me or whatever :) 

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Wurm's continued life relies on "social critical mass".

 

As long as one server has it, the game survives no matter how badly designed it becomes.

 

One could easily point to the death of the old cluster though.  That is definitely dying as more players move over to the new ones to pillage the new players...

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9 minutes ago, Etherdrifter said:

One could easily point to the death of the old cluster though.  That is definitely dying as more players move over to the new ones to pillage the new players...

 

Yet another speculation. The "old cluster" enjoys better participation than during every other summer since I am playing.

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3 hours ago, Ekcin said:

 

Yet another speculation. The "old cluster" enjoys better participation than during every other summer since I am playing.

 

Speculation is all either side of that debate has at this point.  The people pointing at huge populations at this time and claiming "See!  Wurm is saved!" have no evidence since they're arguing short term trends into a long term pattern.

 

I could go on, but my lunch just arrived.

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So the few posts I did, skimmed, and the full OP I've read now this is what I personally have to say.
Based on both Fact and Opinion (I"ll let you decide which is which):
 

  1. Supply is Low on Northern Freedom, Demand is High = Higher Prices
  2. Producers of said Supply are setting prices they are wanting to sell for.
  3. Buyers can choose to pay the wanted price of said supply made available by said producers of product.
  4. You (meaning everyone) has the opportunity to sell whatever item you so desire at whatever price you choose.

So based on the above list here are the options moving forward:

  1. Don't buy at the prices that other suppliers are wanting
  2. Produce your own supply
  3. Produce a supply and offer it at lower prices

Now here's the fun bit:

  1. You produce your own product and no longer have to buy from others
  2. You produce your own product and can now sell at whatever price you want
    1. If that's at a much more reasonable price that you feel is fair and folks decide to buy from you instead of everyone else, then you win!
    2. This happens enough and folks no longer want to spend the "price gauged" items from everyone else, you will expected to either:
      1. Produce enough to supply all the demand yourself at your prices
      2. Expect everyone else either to drop their own prices to become competitive with your prices

Supply and Demand is all about whatever someone else is willing to pay for the asking price.

You don't like what the prices are currently, you need to be part of the solution by having a lower asking price than everyone else. This is how economy works.

So long as anyone is willing to pay a certain price for an item, the longer that price is going to sit where it is.

I'm seeing folks selling horses with 1 or 2 speed traits and a speed penalty trait for 4 silver...
That's absolutely outrageous! But you know what, folks are paying it I guess.
Would I ever charge 4 silver for what is essentially a 1 trait horse (because a penalty basically cancels my second speed boost), no. I certainly could not do that to anyone, I wouldn't pay it. Why would I expect anyone else to?
But that is my opinion and how I would conduct business. I cannot expect someone else to change the way they handle their supply vs my own.

Edited by Zera
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Evidently, OP has no idea how supply and demand works and even arrogantly exclaims

 

On 8/10/2020 at 7:30 PM, Ismira said:

 I mean honestly the amount of time it takes to make things does not change from server the server it is the same, amount of time, it goes by quality of tools, enchants and of course your lvl, so why are Melody and Harmony prices 75% more expensive than it would be on Xanadu or Indy? It’s the same amount of time the same amount of grind the same amount of forging.

 

Except the reality is that it is nowhere near the same amount of time. As you said, it goes by your tools, enchants, and lvl, all of which are almost nonexistent on a new server. Crap skill, crap tools, crap supplies, no sleep bonus, no high nutrition level, and hardly any time to prepare anything.

 

You're used to a stagnant economy where the prices for everything have been artificially lowered.

 

You can continue to be willfully ignorant all you want, but this is the natural, healthy, expected course for the economy of a newborn server.

 

Don't like it? Go back to SFI and quit complaining that people aren't willing to give you something for nothing.

Edited by BDCKoolaid

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If Runescape lives on, so will wurm in even its worst of shape imaginable! 🤠

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You edited your original post, to admit the southern isles had "some" advantage in enchanted tools, resources, skills, but left your conclusion the same, that it still took roughly the same time and effort.  You are still not understanding the full impact of those advantages.

 

To use your "overpriced" Knarr example to showcase this...

 

I am not sure whether you have ever yourself actually built a Knarr. It sounds like you prefer to buy things cheap rather than make them yourself. I can relate to that!

 

If you have 90 shipbuilding, and 90 Woodcutting, and 90 Tailoring/Ropemaking/Farming, and of course high end 90Q/90COC enchanted tools, a Knarr is actually fairly easy. It is far from the most difficult boat in the game.   A really good shipwright probably can knock a knarr out easily in ... less than a day? Especially if you have been sitting on thousands of 90Q resources in BSBs for years.

 

If however you have 30 shipbuilding, 30 woodcutting, 30q resources, and poor 30Q tools with zero enchantments, you are going to not only have slow-as-molasses actions, but also  you are going to FAIL at about 95% of your attachment efforts. You are going to be pounding the same peg over and over and over until it is 80% damaged. Making a Knarr under these conditions, is gadAWFUL, so if someone wants one, they either need to be willing to undergo a lot of pain and torture, OR pay a lot of money for someone else to do all this. Mine on Indy back in 2011 took me about 4-6 weeks when I was a noob, and is something I never ever want to do again. I imagine the ones you are seeing on northern isle took almost three weeks and also were part of a team effort by a village with a dedicated shipbuilder, and a woodcutter and farmer/tailor.  Compared to under a day on southern isles by a single individual. 

 

75% price increase? That's way undervalued for the actual time and work and discomfort compared to what it would take on Xanadu, or any of the other southern maps.

 

What makes a good economy, is a proper mix of people who primarily consume, and people who primarily produce.  On the southern servers, excess of producers, everything is a buyer's market. On the northern servers, excess of consumers, so it is a seller's market.  That means you should pick the cluster that reflects the role YOU want to play in that blend.

 

If you like to mostly buy things that others worked to make, then southern and not northern isles is  the right spot for your own playstyle.  Maybe in a year, consider it again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Brash_Endeavors
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