Fairyshine

L33t vs N00b

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This is something interesting to think about, and obviously might cause some very opposing views, but still interesting none the less:

 

The recent launch of Steam servers saw a big influx of "vet" players being noobs again, and, knowing the mechanics of the game, immediately started using things like sleep powder, grinding skills the most effective way, focusing on the skills that will earn coin, and selling stuff of higher ql.  Being in noobville, they were able to quickly establish higher prices for items, and fair enough, because a 50ql weapon or armor will save someone's life  on the new servers.  Many people advertise trading silver on old servers for silver on new servers, because things are super expensive on the new servers, and silver is hard to come by.  (Unless you were one of the lucky ones who got the bonuses in silver and sleep powders and referrals to sell due to seeing the first time offers, then you had some good starting points.)

 

There were also an influx of genuine noobs, who never played Wurm before, or perhaps a very long time ago.  These people do not really know the mechanics, still need to learn how to level a tile, have limited or no knowledge of how to find iron or the importance of horses, etc.  Some of them destroyed spawn areas, and  the mines of some of them...well, death pit comes to mind.  I remember when I was a noob, thinking that I should deed exactly where I found an abandoned forge, since it would save me from building one, but I digress...

 

The point is there is a stark difference between the skillset of the NoobNoobs and the VetNoobs.  The most pronounced will come later on, when some of the more vet NoobVets who understand the value of uniques, might continue from where they were before, namely making exclusive and small teams of people hunting these uniques, trapping and killing them,  thus gaining sole access to the dropped loot (rare bones and tome drops and sharing the scale/drake if this drops, to start assembling armour of the highest quality.)  This means the same people will be able to withstand the rift mobs if and when these ever come to the new servers, so will then be able to dominate the rune market and moonmetals as well.  

 

There are no big upsets or disgruntled people about any of these things yet, because it is still an adventure to kill a bear to find fur for your first bed, or to successfully make a kindle.   However, if the new servers are to be more about balance and even distributions, it is something to think about for the future, since people have lost friends out of the game due to unnecessary dramas.

 

 

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And comments of people from all of this will be reflected in Steam ratings, so something else in the mix now.

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But how would you go about bringing in balance for that? Seems to me there really is no way around it.

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yeah i always laughed at the idea of a server restart to fix the economy, like the same vets people complain about dominating the market, they're just gonna go dominate the new market for a markup, duh

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Posted (edited)

I'm not really sure what people were expecting was going to happen. Any of the Old Players have a greater advantage over New Players on knowing what to grind/how to grind and what they should do to excel.

And as Shrimpiie already said, how would we go about bringing a balance to people having knowledge versus those that don't?

Edited by Jotz
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Knowledge is the only advantage. They've put lots of hrs in prior to this launch so they probably deserve a boost.

What the new server does allow though is those noobs who are learning the game aren't 15 years behind, instead just a few months and once they learn the game they can become competitive.

There's also an abundance of information about wurm now, so any in noob who is a meta gamer or min maxer who cares about the above topic will do their research.

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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, Shrimpiie said:

But how would you go about bringing in balance for that? Seems to me there really is no way around it.

 

Not as it currently works, no.  But it currently does not work well, so perhaps think outside the box for the new servers.

 

Dragons and uniques can spawn anywhere, as always.  However, they can only be contained in a unique "trap cage" which is created right in the middle of the server or at various locations like the spawn areas currently are.  They consist of a cage where this unique, once lead into it, will be trapped.  They can no longer be trapped any other way, i.e. not in buildings, underground or in caves.  They don't enter deeds nor can deeds be placed over them.  Thus deeds are protected and people are protected if they run into a deed, but other than that, the unique roams freely.  The only way they can be trapped is if they are kited and lead to a game owned central location, waiting for the server wide kill date.  The trapping is announced server wide,  and the dragon will stay trapped there untouched for 48 hours at which point the enclosure will open for people to enter to help kill it.  Once the enclosure opens,  anyone can enter this location to help with the kill.  As people enter for the kill, their names are entered into a roll.  Once char per IP address or something similar, has to be limited to one char per actual person.  Once the dragon is killed, the game randomly rolls the loot to those whose names are on the roll, and the loot are anything from SINGLE use tomes (up to three single use tomes per event, distributed to three individual people), rare bone, skull, eye, meat,  and specific unique type drops like goblin crown and whole sets of scale or drake (whole assembled set or individual pieces, this is up to the devs to decide) distributed to random participants.  No longer pieces of scale or drake, but whole pieces or even whole sets, are randomly distributed directly into the inventory of participants, similar to how the loot is distributed at the end of rifts.  Every participant gets a blood each.  

 

With this method people can truly use mercenaries to kite and loot the beast away from their local areas to the central location.  However, once trapped, there is a 48 hour window and a server wide announcement of upcoming kill time, with regular reminders in events tab.  

 

I guess this is one idea of a rework which might take a lot of the drama out of the current system, but there might be others with more creative thoughts.

 

Also, to make it enticing for the trapper, a unique title sequence can be granted, i.e. first trap they get the title "Unique trapper Lucky", second trap they get title "Unique trapper twice shy", third time "Unique trapper thrice" and so on.  If they lead the dragon into the enclosure they also get a random drop of moonmetal.

Edited by Fairyshine

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, Fairyshine said:

The only way they can be trapped is if they are kited and lead to a game owned central location, waiting for the server wide kill date.  The trapping is announced server wide,  and the dragon will stay trapped there untouched for 48 hours at which point the enclosure will open for people to enter to help kill it.  Once the enclosure opens,  anyone can enter this location to help with the kill.  As people enter for the kill, their names are entered into a roll.  Once char per IP address or something similar, has to be limited to one char per actual person.  Once the dragon is killed, the game randomly rolls the loot to those whose names are on the roll, and the loot are anything from SINGLE use tomes (up to three single use tomes per event, distributed to three individual people), rare bone, skull, eye, meat,  and specific unique type drops like goblin crown and whole sets of scale or drake (whole assembled set or individual pieces, this is up to the devs to decide) distributed to random participants.  No longer pieces of scale or drake, but whole pieces or even whole sets, are randomly distributed directly into the inventory of participants, similar to how the loot is distributed at the end of rifts.  Every participant gets a blood each. 

 

So, you basically want people to ride in on a fast horse, kite it using its already fairly wonky leash/tether/whatever name for the system it currently uses, and give everyone a chance at it. And totally getting rid of scale/hide drops, where instead giving a player, sometimes multiple players all END GAME gear after one single, easy, slaying?

WTT 4 scale boots for 1 scale chest, must be black

Edited by Madnath

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Posted (edited)

Yes.  I mean make it more fairly distributed as opposed to one elite group of people who ride on a fast horse, kite the unique to a cave, and only them get the chance of getting the whole drop of scale/hide between just themselves, to sell it on at ridiculous prices, after one, single, easy slaying.  Also, the dropped items can be capped in ql at say 10, so yes, if you still want to trade, go right ahead :P 

 

Edited by Fairyshine
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Posted (edited)

I dont care what happens to the new servers long as they are never connected, all that really matters. Always fresh steam faces to annoy poopsocker vets who wouldn't know the first thing about deed design.

Edited by Jeston
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i kite uniques on foot because its easier to pen that way

 

kiting a unique across a server while dodging every single town on the way because uniques will get blocked by them sounds horrendously inconvenient, removing penning doesn't stop private slaying just makes it harder for people who can't stop what they're doing at a whim to go kill a unique, and endgame gear being locked behind a weekly slap the big mob and wait for rng is just meh. you'll still get plenty of people causing drama because some guy got more rng loot from them due to bad rng/broken system/biased staff altering the system/whatever fun allegation. So far 3 uniques have been spotted in the new servers, the locations have been called out on freedom chat many times and nobodys penned them, perhaps take the initiate and pen them so you can host a public slaying if thats what you fancy? doesn't take much more than a shaker and a suicide alt with a tent to pen a unique

 

dominating the rift market with unique loot doesn't make much sense because you just need to target a mob in melee before it dies for a point, you can very easily get 100+ points on a new character, hell you can just afk in the area and mine the rift nodes after it ends too

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13 minutes ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

dominating the rift market with unique loot doesn't make much sense because you just need to target a mob in melee before it dies for a point, you can very easily get 100+ points on a new character, hell you can just afk in the area and mine the rift nodes after it ends too

Only way to get moonmetals is partcipation in rifts, but with the noob gear, no tanks, no priests, no cotton, no skill etc. it might take a long time for said rift to end.    Like I said, my plan was not the be all and end all but the drama surrounding the current situation caused a lot of animosity and anxiety and some people left the game because of the drama.  Would hate to see this happen in the future and have a bunch of bad reviews on Steam for what is essentially a really great game.

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Posted (edited)

- A bonus drop for the one who is penning, or all in local while penning.

- Use new item "unique cage".

- Lead unique into cage and load it.

- Loading creature takes X amount of time.

- When loaded the cage and creature gets teleported to the closest server owned arena.

 

Timer starts, all in local of slaying gets blood. Also drops may be modified to whatever suits the designer.

Edited by Nordlys
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45 minutes ago, Nordlys said:

- A bonus drop for the one who is penning, or all in local while penning.

- Use new item "unique cage".

- Lead unique into cage and load it.

- Loading creature takes X amount of time.

- When loaded the cage and creature gets teleported to the closest server owned arena.

 

Timer starts, all in local of slaying gets blood. Also drops may be modified to whatever suits the designer.

 

Sounds perfect for a themepark mmo, but doesn't sound like Wurm.

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24 minutes ago, Ecrir said:

 

Sounds perfect for a themepark mmo, but doesn't sound like Wurm.

For my sake can you just remove the whole unique feature and add something different. Or you can change the one we have. Dont know whats the easiest for this suggestion. :)

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From what i can tell your whole thing comes down to this "  thus gaining sole access to the dropped loot " its nothing to do with newbies or anything its to do with those who have knowledge and time vs those who dont i have seen new players pour over the wiki(on streams) and ask around in gl and ca help and to people they knew where experienced players and get the knowledge they sought after that chance is there for every new player no restriction all that is needed is time investment
So that solves the knowledge part now onto the time part nothing can be done if you have a job and other commitments you are stuck with little playtime
 

Here is something that might be really hard for you to grasp those 8-15 man private slayings that happen right now on the old servers? they are toons with ql 90+ gear enchants in the high 90's and stats in the 60+ with fighting and weapon skills in the 90's by the time any new account reaches that point after months of grinding many more will have joined their ranks and even then they wont be able to just quickly find one asap and pen it there is no historical data to make it easier to find where a unique can spawn there is no set window of when they spawn yet all that info that people rely on now to try and guestimate where and when a unique spawns so that they can pen it isnt there

Let alone uniques themselves they along with rifts and mm and imbues are all not active

Let end game gear be end game stop trying to make it accessible to everyone this is wurm not wow just stop trying i get you want your drake i get you want your enchants and high skills and all that and have a strong toon on the new servers i get it we all do but why? enjoy the fresh start build a new place meet new people make new friends play a different way


Currently what i am doing on cele is completely remaking an entire mountain range that will take many years and will most likely cost me a lot of gold worth of equipment meanwhile on melody im a simple mag priest miner i mine my tunnel hunt for rare shards cast light tokens everywhere and grind my mining up i have near 70 mining 12 masonry 18 fighting(living in a desert does that to you) 14 carpentry and 22 digging
On cele i have 2 drake sets 9 lmcs entire set of rare tools and half a set of supreme all at ql 90+ gear with 95+ enchants all that jaz
On melody my highest tool is a ql 60 pickaxe 2nd highest is my crowbar at ql 55(i use it as a weapon) i have no interest in uniques any time soon unless its a goblin leader as mining imbue but besides that who cares about scale or drake unless its high ql its useless and getting to that high skill will take quite a while even at the rush anyone is going

What im trying to get at is that the whole "oh no im afraid vets are going to pen and solo kill every unique and new players or casuals cant get anything from it" is nothing but hot air those vets you speak of? they are stuck on their deeds for 90% of their time grinding their skills trying to make money in a volatile market or just carving out a new place for themselves or busy pvping they dont care nor want to run around a server all day looking for a unique once they are activated we do those things as a break from our mundane tasks in wurm but this fresh start gives us all kinds of new goals to set new tasks to complete new milestones to reach like who cares about getting 0.5kg of drake when your lw cant make a set over 60 ql and will prob use all of the drake up even trying to make half the pieces


At the end of the day vets will have an advantage yes they are supposed to they already spend countless hours and hundreds of dollars on this game in the past they are allowed to have some kind of advantage over others be it better skilling more optimal deed setups knowing how to strip mine or strongwall mine knowing what mobs to fight and what to avoid
Knowing that you are going to need 30+ people early on to take on any kind of unique is a thing they know as well and no one wants to get 2 shot or 1 shot by a vern red dragon's aoe i have seen the fights from early days release and pristine i have seen the fights when unique's where well that uniques
I have seen the many failed fights of big groups of players with better gear then anyone on melody can have within the next 5 months get a total wipe on a unique because their tanks died these people are not going to pen a unique in a mine and slaughter it with 5 people if anything they would pen it and set a server wide event for it because the bloods will be worth more then the scale and hide at the time being but even that you need skills for most will not have the chance to grind at all

Anyway long story short vets dont have such a huge advantage that within 2 months time they will be wearing drake or scale sets and penning every unique that spawns while newbies run around and die to a crocodile while trying to get to their corpse
Just stop trying to make wurm into a cookie cutter theme park mmo by making end game content possible for everyone from the get go wurm is designed to be hard to get everything you need multiple toons yourself if you want to be fully self sufficient and have access to all spells the game is designed on purpose this way just let it be the way it is dont chip away at its identity with things like this constantly

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6 hours ago, Fairyshine said:

 Once char per IP address or something similar, has to be limited to one char per actual person.  Once the dragon is killed, the game randomly rolls the loot to those whose names are on the roll, and the loot are anything from SINGLE use tomes (up to three single use tomes per event, distributed to three individual people), rare bone, skull, eye, meat,  and specific unique type drops like goblin crown and whole sets of scale or drake (whole assembled set or individual pieces, this is up to the devs to decide) distributed to random participants.  No longer pieces of scale or drake, but whole pieces or even whole sets, are randomly distributed directly into the inventory of participants, similar to how the loot is distributed at the end of rifts.  Every participant gets a blood each.  

 

With this method people can truly use mercenaries to kite and loot the beast away from their local areas to the central location.  However, once trapped, there is a 48 hour window and a server wide announcement of upcoming kill time, with regular reminders in events tab

how does that answer the question shrimpiie asked? unique related gear is a very small part of "dominating the market", if you have been focusing on getting the skills and mats to sell wagons from the launch of the servers for example, or ship building, or making toolbelts by the time any unique loot is sold, you will be super super rich.

 

people getting full sets of drake or scale armor seems insane, that would just make it worthless very soon. i dont know about the random distribution or how to do it but people getting whole armor sets from one unique sounds terrible.

 

you expect "noobs" to hire mercenaries to trap uniques? wouldnt it be better to really finally make them imposible to trap? make them not able to enter caves, or whatever it takes to make them not trapable.

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31 minutes ago, wipeout said:

Here is something that might be really hard for you to grasp those 8-15 man private slayings that happen right now on the old servers? they are toons with ql 90+ gear enchants in the high 90's and stats in the 60+ with fighting and weapon skills in the 90's by the time any new account reaches that point after months of grinding many more will have joined their ranks
 

Wipeout, I am in a similar position as you with multiple sets of everything and most if it supreme.  I have participated and hosted in public slaying and private slayings (some of which we trapped the dragons), as myself or my fo priests, on various occasions.  Not really interested in unique trapping and slaying anymore, for the sake of having lost friends who left Wurm permanently due to some really nasty dramas.  So, despite what you think, this point is not really hard for me to grasp.  It can't be denied that this wonderful game has lost great players due to nasty dramas with uniques.  That is a fact.  The other stuff in relation to the noobies being at a disadvantage is also clear, since this game is complex and many people still learn new things about the game after years of playing. 

 

As an example of how intended things can change to make the game more enjoyable for all, here is an example:  Initially sleep bonus could only be gained from sleeping in a bed.  This was mainly to compensate the people who work and have limited time to play the game, to "catch up" with those people who can play the game all day long. Sleep powder was never an intended thing, because it would negate the bonus people who can't play all day long, get from sleeping in a bed.  The game changed to accommodate the player base's requests, and nowadays sleep powders make sleep bonus available even for those who can play the game all day long,  basically offsetting the bonus people get from sleeping in a bed thus giving extra advantage to those who can play all day long with sleep powders.  People can trade it and earn some in game coin.   

 

Second example:  People can get supreme items by creating and imping weapons, tools etc.  Yes, it is supposed to be high level or "end game" stuff, but everyone can access it by chance.  Why not?  It is fun, it creates even chances, and gives people opportunities to trade.  Noobies can buy drake and scale sets, can't they?  So they can access this gear if they spend the coin.  It is not just for end gamers.  The only difference here is that currently it seems that only a select few access these things over and again, and sell it off to others.  But there is no thing that stops a person with zero skill from donning a high end weapon or armor. 

 

Obviously there are many things that change as time goes on, and despite the many golds spent in this game, traders were taken out as they were deemed toxic, fountain pans were removed, and real life money trading was stopped.  Things that harm the game need to be looked at, and clearly this is an issue which the old server players will be well aware of, which the newer players still need to discover.  It is a very good opportunity to let go of the current situation while everyone is still in the same boat.  If the devs decide to have items drop directly into inventories rather than on the ground, that is something which is up to them.  Most likely the situation will not change, because it will take a whole lot of rewriting and reprogramming, but something that really caused negative feelings and drove people away in the past.  I said at the start many people will have many strong feelings about this, but it is not worth attacking individuals for stating the obvious.

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You wanna talk about unique drama? I had an alliance member leave my alliance because we killed a unique at our play time and not his(we live opposite ends of the world based on time zones and his playtime is 2-3 hours every 2nd day -.-) a public event would still have made that person whine and complain sometimes there just isnt anyway to please a person and when it comes to "legendary creatures" as the gms have started calling them(because they respawn now >.>) no matter what amount of dev time is put in to come up with what ever way to "fix" the issue of limited content being available to the masses people wills till complain they did so for years to get the cap of sb increased to 10 or beyond they did so with many other features

Your second example i just want to add something here it is laughingly easy to make supremes now fantastics they are hard to make i cant stay up for long enough to try doing it but supremes can be done in a day with the only limiting factor being how many non prem alts do you want to throw at your shitty quality iron vein and how many forges do you want to run and how many smelting pots do you want to make
Either way you kinda show my point of why wurm should not make the change "The only difference here is that currently it seems that only a select few access these things over and again, and sell it off to others." this right here it creates economic opportunities for those who put in the effort to push for it
The one thing i miss right now the most on the new servers? is food and maybe just maybe a woa pickaxe just so that these dam cave walls disappear faster but thats about it and if i saw a reasonably priced decent cast woa pickaxe id buy it and why? because from early on i spend time delivering items until mailboxes where placed and since then put up merchants at the starter to sell tools that my group created with the ore i mined we spend in the first few days almost the entire day online having about 9-10 hours of downtime on our toons max if even that(we shared our toons) to get to where we where so why should we not be able to have access to things others who dont put in that effort wont have?

Look at runescape as an example in rs2(not osrs) it took most players many years of playing to max out 1 or 2 skills and most of the time it was a combat one first the kids and adults who played for 2-3 hours a day had skills in the 70-80 with most having 50's in most skills and a few people having pure accounts or heavily focused ones and then somewhere along the way a major push was made by players who had gotten accounts to "end game" content to document everything from all quests to all skills every location was documented the optimal way to grind every skill was created the "ultimate quest guide" was a thing that got shared around and has now been expanded and maintained to take any toon from 1 in everything to 99 in everything
rs2 went from the end game being a dream of many to being achievable in 5 months of casual play or less then 2 of 6-8 hours a day and along with it came the drop in price of end game items no longer where they worth millions no longer did scammers try to steal those items the game fundamentally changed
And yet there are plenty of new players and old who do not play that way who still spend years to get there

What you are trying to do is take those rs2 players who found the "most optimal way" to play and punish them for their achievements by taking away end game and making it available for the level 1's like rs2 private servers do and that ruins the fun

If a unique fight was to happen every 11 days on celebration in a certain "arena" it would be the same as the rifts after a year no one will really bother to show up and just park alts at it for the loot but that loot will be worthless
Scale and drake sets have their price because of their rarity if it grew to be so common because everyone can participate in them they would become maybe 4-5s more then studded in no time and everyone will walk around in the "best" gear and pvp players would not care about dying in drake and players would find random drake or scale sets in the wilderness and just keep it instead of return it(fun story i once found a scale set on deli near a mountain and instead of keeping it i tried to find out who it was and brought it back i could have sold it for euro at the time and made a lot of money out of it but i didnt)

Let end game content be end game content let it be rare and hard to get let it become the wish of players to strive to either make enough silver or participate in enough fights to get their own set dont make it be yet another rift event that no one cares about

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Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, Tpikol said:

how does that answer the question shrimpiie asked?

I have no idea either.  It is a very difficult thing and like I said, who knows the answer?  All I know if I lost some really good friends who were great assets to this game, and they won't come back, even after I begged them to come to the new servers, because of the previous bad experiences.  I guess the prior knowledge of the vets are also something that puts them off, since they said it will very soon be same old same old situation, and yes, I have no idea what to say to that argument either.  

 

People know that ideas here are just that:  Ideas.  Whether they are implemented or not is entirely up to the devs.

Edited by Fairyshine

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You cannot create equal footing in an online game nevermind in a grindy mmo sandbox no matter how much you try dev team or not because people have different game knowledge different attention spans different playtime and different goals.

 

The equalisation comes naturally as veterans players stop playing and that was the problem for Wurm because they could sell their toon for real money but now they removed that so the problem will slowly fix itself.

 

Sure by looking at the old freedom pop is obvious that the vast majority of players have parked their toons there and are happily outgrinding the newbies on their new toons on the new cluster.

 

Nobody can do anything about that.

 

So if you play the game to compare yourself with the progress and strenght of the others around you then you need to be aware in Wurm that takes alot of time and effort to rise to the top.

 

If you play the game for the day to day life and just let your skills grow at your own pace you would have a better time.

 

If your playstyle is not like that and would rather compete just ask for ways to maximise your skillgains people will share info is not a veteran closed secret.

 

Is just that the vets  are used to grinding, and for them, doing something for hours feels like just another day  while a newbie mining for 30m spamming Mine action with no stam could be like: wooa in minecraft i would have leveled a mountain by now that guy got half a mining skill level and i got 0.0005 this game hates newbies!

 

Again it can be done you just have to ask in ca_helm in streams in discord even here on the forums OR made a great thread for grinding stuff but most importantly:

 

If you stick with the game.. few months down the line.. you will be thinking back to this period and be like: wow i was such a noob i can't believe i was doing X like Y and thought 20 skill in carpentry was the shitznitz :)

 

Oh and yes once the servers will merge the same people that sell 70ql items on new servers for 1s will re-prem their old toons and sell you 90ql items for 1s :)

 

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Posted (edited)

You also have to realize that a lot of those vets and established private groups are or were pvpers who killed uniques to supply their war efforts on Chaos for example

 

This time, PvE and PvP has seperate inventories, and those people also have to grind their FS on both servers, and get gear on both and play on both to look for uniques etc... if they want to kill uniques on PvE, and then they still cant bring their sets to PvP.

 

Also since RMT is removed, drake/scale sets will lose their values and worth massively and will make people less enthusiastic in hunting for uniques and penning them.

Back then you could make hundreds of euros from dragons, now it's 0.

Edited by atazs

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Uniques should have not spawned on the new servers until the devs had time to really re-think the whole thing. (great job on disabling moon metals for now at least!)

 

Tone down the rewards significantly for them. Come up with an entirely different system for bloods. Something like reworking the alchemy system with a lot more depth (like fish/cooking). Have blood potions the high tier results with complicated/scarce resources (so maybe forage/botanize for ingredients along with hunting/etc). Just always have a rare bone (compensation for deed dropper or whatever). Remove the tomes.

 

Basically tone down uniques so they’re not the whole source of endgame gear (scale and drake and bloods and tomes and rare+ bones). Maybe give an endgame armor option from uniques and alternative from an entirely different system. 

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Is it already time for drama? 

 

Can we have two more weeks of kumbaya instead?

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