GucciusMaximus

Fishing - too complicated?

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Hey everyone!

 

I'm a newer player with the Steam launch, generally enjoying my time a LOT! I think this game is excellent and was hidden under my nose for too many years!

 

In going through the mass amount of content to traverse the relatively steep learning curve of this game, I stumbled upon many fishing guides, to which I was sad to learn are outdated. Fishing used to be a much simpler mechanic, and my wife and I were very disappointed to learn we can't enjoy a relatively time-killing experience fishing and enjoying the peace with poles in hand and dreams of fish on the way. Is this a popular change in the community? Everyone I ask that's a veteran considers the change to be somewhat negative, overly complicated, and generally hinders the beginner experience.  Don't get me wrong, I respect and enjoy the many other extremely complicated and involved systems in Wurm Online - otherwise I wouldn't be playing. I'd prefer a more relaxing, easy experience with fishing, as it used to be, and hope to find a sort of in game 'break with benefits' that I would generally consider fishing in other games.

 

Feel free to discuss below, or if possible, agree - maybe with enough support we can revert the changes and all the new players can enjoy fishing together again. Thanks for reading!

 

GucciusMaximus

(ign GucciusStaximus)

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I looked at the new fishing system for 10 seconds before deciding it was far too complex to ###### with, especially since I could just hunt for food or just forage if I'm really desperate.
Still, we wanted some fish to test recipes with and still none of us wanted to try it, so I made a spear and we realized spearfishing is next to impossible to do.
So then we dropped it and didn't bother with fishing at all.

Yeah it''s probably a little too complicated for what consists of a subpar source of meat that is only interesting to create food with cute names.

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I quite like the complexity and depth to the mechanic, the former fishing mechanic honestly wasn't very interesting it all, it was simple and very shallow.

When Jackal launched last year (a temporary server, when going there you started without skills) I found fishing to work just fine for food as long as you started with a net in shallow water. Perhaps the tutorial for the fishing system doesn't point that out well enough?

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The 'new' fishing system is simply too convoluted to bother with. It isn't super difficult, but in terms of effort vs. reward, it's one of the worst skills in the game.

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Hi, GucciusMaximus.  You seem to have a typo in your topic title, having inserted a question mark instead of an exclamation mark.

 

 

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One solution could be to offer 2 types of fishing - basic as before and complicated for those into that. 

Not sure how the Devs could do that, but it would be great for newbies to be able to fish for their supper on a campfire with a basic rod again.

 

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36 minutes ago, Baloo said:

 

One solution could be to offer 2 types of fishing - basic as before and complicated for those into that. 

Not sure how the Devs could do that, but it would be great for newbies to be able to fish for their supper on a campfire with a basic rod again.

 

 

Especially as fishing featured in the promo video

 

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There was a time when fishing was boring because there was no challenge to it.  The new fishing system, just like the cooking overhaul, is all about complexity, immersion, and the expectation of success within a very deep system.  If you don't want to dive into fishing (pun intended) then just do something else.  I found that spending the time to get ready for the fishing trip is half the fun of fishing.  Who doesn't like filling up a tackle box with all kinds of goodies?  That was rhetorical.  

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I like the new fishing , with net and spear :)

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it's a terrible overcomplicated system when the old one worked just fine. new players are especially screwed over.

imagine having to setup beekeeping or an animal farm just so you can craft a single fly.

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10 minutes ago, Aroma said:

I like the new fishing , with net and spear :)

I like being able to poke myself to death with a spear with fishing early on on a new toon >.>

I have said this so many times in game and elsewhere but the new fishing system sucks(and before everyone gets angry let me explain)
Why do we need mini games inside of a game?
Why should i have to aim a spear at a fish to catch it when 90% of the time i cant catch it anyway as its not on the right spot(even now)
Why should there be no simple option for fishing where you just have a fishing rod like we used to and you can sit back and fish away have reduced skill gain or something for all i care but give the option to kick back and relax while fishing it used to be a great activity to wind down after a day of wurming and not standing still
The crafting behind all of it and the thousands of requirements make fishing a pointless mechanic unless you have a spreadsheet and someone with the skill to make it all and you did a lot of fishing on the old system in order to "automate" all the annoying features

Lets make a list of the different things that fishing has shall we

3 different types of fishing

Rod fishing
The most complex one of the bunch and the only real useful one but it drives you nuts at low skill

4 different types of reels that all do different things and all require different skills
Skills used: Carpentry, Fine carpentry, Blacksmithing, Jewelry smithing
All require decent skill to create them at a semi decent pace

4 different types of handles
Skills used: Carpentry, Blacksmithing, Cloth tailoring

5 different types of fishing lines
Skills used:Cloth tailoring, Ropemaking

4 different types of floats
All requiring weird ways to collect them and all have different values on when they are best to use ranging from what depth its best to use at and worst of all what time of the freaking day its best to use at

3 different types of hooks
Skills used: Carpentry, Blacksmithing, Miscellaneous skill

So total we have 7 different skills that get used to create the 20 different items  just for having 4 different types of fishing rods
Then the wood types  give a modifier to how fast a fish turns up

Spear fishing
Do you want to look like a cave man chanting while killing yourself by stabbing yourself in your own foot then this is the choice for you
You have to look around on the tile you are standing infront of and click the fish that swim around when you see them(this is such a silly mechanic in a game that doesnt display fish properly on 90% of the tiles in the game)

Net fishing
Only useful for catching tiny fish and needs to be emptied constantly but the only one you can really "afk" on like the old way
Skill required: Cloth tailoring


Now lets start on bait 
12 different types of bait with a lot of them being silly in their way of gathering them (a fly is caught using a pottery jar and money on a animal that needs grooming >.> )
Different fish love different bait so if you want to target fish do the steps to get your correct bait(enjoy)

Now comes the fun part the total list of sillyness that this system has for requirements on what fish are caught where
   Preferred water type (lake, sea, etc)
   Minimum and maximum depth.
   Feeding height.
   Rod types.
   Time of day - some fish like to feed in the morning, afternoon, evening or even at night
   Baits - each fish has a favorite bait, some baits it likes, others it is less likely to eat, and some it will never touch.
   Outside or in caves - some fish are only found underground
   Rare fish can only be caught on special tiles (which are out at sea). 

And least we forget the tackle box the item with a billion inventories that let you store all your items in for fishing with a rod nice you might think right? it auto replaces stuff right? ya at certain skills only
Bait will be auto-replaced at 10 skill
Hook will be auto-replaced at 30 skill
Float will be auto-replaced at 50 skill
Line will be auto-replaced at 70 skill or at any skill if reel exists.
Reel will be auto-replaced at 90 skill 


So here we have a system that a lot of existing players never liked was thrown at us with little to no warning and we got forced to accept it as we dare speak up we got in trouble(yes this is a thing people got in trouble for saying they dont like it)  and the system even now way later is still hell to deal with unless you have 90 fishing

But new players dont have 90 fishing they have 1 they are trying to figure out how the game works and they almost die while fighting a bear(or die to a bear) they are low on meat they get told "go fishing" and are stuck using a net(if they have cotton to spare) or a spear as making the fishing rod aint going to happen and are stuck with 2 mechanics that seem like after thoughts added in to give some more flavor to the system and ways to grind for new players
There are so many players who have played for years who looked at fishing and threw their fishing rods in their forges and said "screw it never again" and since then never fished again as its overly complex for no real purpose

Now new players will see it and go "um ya i think i will pass the game is hard enough as it is" and thus never bother touching it again either and in the end of the day they will join the giant group of players who go "i guess i will just hunt for meat as fishing is useless"

Just bring back the old style fishing rod and call it a training rod or something that lets you catch the fish you used to but at 30% of the skill gain rate when compared to normal this will make it hell to grind but still viable for people to fish for food and it doesnt require people to learn 20 items and 12 baits and 500000 settings on when to use what bait at what time of the day and at what location
And no dont go limiting the training rod to "only catch small fish" as that will make it useless let them catch all fish that they can on the location they are on

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Fishing with net is completely different than fishing with rod/pole/spear. Fishing with net is almost the semi-afk experience that players seem to like in the former system: make 3 nets, start fishing, turn on netflix, while your nets fill up with small fish. At the end, drag the fish into a bucket and repeat.

So if that's what you'd like to do, you can do it.

 

For some reason, new players jump directly at pole/rod, skipping net. I'm not sure why, but I'm pretty sure that it would be a better experience overall for people if you do net fishing, see that it works, get yourself a bunch of small fish, and go about your business. Later, you can play with more complicated aspects of fishing, if you want, it's completely optional for feeding yourself.

 

FIshing with spear and fishing with rod are strangely opposite in one essential mechanic: with rod you have to click somewhere, anywhere to hook, with spear you need to click on the fish that comes to you. This duality adds to the learning curve IMO: if you learn spear first, rod later, you have to develop some habit of looking for the fish and trying to click correctly, then suddenly turn off your habit or get frustrated that with rod "it doesn't work". If you learn the other way around it's even worse.

My suggestion here, for a smoother experience, is usually to not do spear fishing at all (go from net fishing to rod fishing if you're skilling fishing higher), or until you are ready to give it some time for itself, learn it, play with it, try stuff, spear your foot, just take your time.

Edited by Anarres

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7 minutes ago, wipeout said:

I like being able to poke myself to death with a spear with fishing early on on a new toon >.>

I have said this so many times in game and elsewhere but the new fishing system sucks(and before everyone gets angry let me explain)
Why do we need mini games inside of a game?
Why should i have to aim a spear at a fish to catch it when 90% of the time i cant catch it anyway as its not on the right spot(even now)
Why should there be no simple option for fishing where you just have a fishing rod like we used to and you can sit back and fish away have reduced skill gain or something for all i care but give the option to kick back and relax while fishing it used to be a great activity to wind down after a day of wurming and not standing still
The crafting behind all of it and the thousands of requirements make fishing a pointless mechanic unless you have a spreadsheet and someone with the skill to make it all and you did a lot of fishing on the old system in order to "automate" all the annoying features

Lets make a list of the different things that fishing has shall we

3 different types of fishing

Rod fishing
The most complex one of the bunch and the only real useful one but it drives you nuts at low skill

4 different types of reels that all do different things and all require different skills
Skills used: Carpentry, Fine carpentry, Blacksmithing, Jewelry smithing
All require decent skill to create them at a semi decent pace

4 different types of handles
Skills used: Carpentry, Blacksmithing, Cloth tailoring

5 different types of fishing lines
Skills used:Cloth tailoring, Ropemaking

4 different types of floats
All requiring weird ways to collect them and all have different values on when they are best to use ranging from what depth its best to use at and worst of all what time of the freaking day its best to use at

3 different types of hooks
Skills used: Carpentry, Blacksmithing, Miscellaneous skill

So total we have 7 different skills that get used to create the 20 different items  just for having 4 different types of fishing rods
Then the wood types  give a modifier to how fast a fish turns up

Spear fishing
Do you want to look like a cave man chanting while killing yourself by stabbing yourself in your own foot then this is the choice for you
You have to look around on the tile you are standing infront of and click the fish that swim around when you see them(this is such a silly mechanic in a game that doesnt display fish properly on 90% of the tiles in the game)

Net fishing
Only useful for catching tiny fish and needs to be emptied constantly but the only one you can really "afk" on like the old way
Skill required: Cloth tailoring


Now lets start on bait 
12 different types of bait with a lot of them being silly in their way of gathering them (a fly is caught using a pottery jar and money on a animal that needs grooming >.> )
Different fish love different bait so if you want to target fish do the steps to get your correct bait(enjoy)

Now comes the fun part the total list of sillyness that this system has for requirements on what fish are caught where
   Preferred water type (lake, sea, etc)
   Minimum and maximum depth.
   Feeding height.
   Rod types.
   Time of day - some fish like to feed in the morning, afternoon, evening or even at night
   Baits - each fish has a favorite bait, some baits it likes, others it is less likely to eat, and some it will never touch.
   Outside or in caves - some fish are only found underground
   Rare fish can only be caught on special tiles (which are out at sea). 

And least we forget the tackle box the item with a billion inventories that let you store all your items in for fishing with a rod nice you might think right? it auto replaces stuff right? ya at certain skills only
Bait will be auto-replaced at 10 skill
Hook will be auto-replaced at 30 skill
Float will be auto-replaced at 50 skill
Line will be auto-replaced at 70 skill or at any skill if reel exists.
Reel will be auto-replaced at 90 skill 


So here we have a system that a lot of existing players never liked was thrown at us with little to no warning and we got forced to accept it as we dare speak up we got in trouble(yes this is a thing people got in trouble for saying they dont like it)  and the system even now way later is still hell to deal with unless you have 90 fishing

But new players dont have 90 fishing they have 1 they are trying to figure out how the game works and they almost die while fighting a bear(or die to a bear) they are low on meat they get told "go fishing" and are stuck using a net(if they have cotton to spare) or a spear as making the fishing rod aint going to happen and are stuck with 2 mechanics that seem like after thoughts added in to give some more flavor to the system and ways to grind for new players
There are so many players who have played for years who looked at fishing and threw their fishing rods in their forges and said "screw it never again" and since then never fished again as its overly complex for no real purpose

Now new players will see it and go "um ya i think i will pass the game is hard enough as it is" and thus never bother touching it again either and in the end of the day they will join the giant group of players who go "i guess i will just hunt for meat as fishing is useless"

Just bring back the old style fishing rod and call it a training rod or something that lets you catch the fish you used to but at 30% of the skill gain rate when compared to normal this will make it hell to grind but still viable for people to fish for food and it doesnt require people to learn 20 items and 12 baits and 500000 settings on when to use what bait at what time of the day and at what location
And no dont go limiting the training rod to "only catch small fish" as that will make it useless let them catch all fish that they can on the location they are on

While making a basic fishing pole line and hook is no harder than the old system it does require bait and float. You can even get that easy by searching overaged bushes for twigs and forage for wheat and corn. You can use that to catch some smaller fish with a chance to catch larger ones . You can then use these smaller fish and cut them up to fish bits or use them as bait for larger ones. I have not done the fishing tutorial so i do not know how well basic fishing is explained.

 

I guarantee the biggest reason most people hate the fishing system is its no longer que a bunch of actions and flip back to your other toon.  I space out and forget to pay attention to the screen sometimes and it is aggravating but i love the new systems complexity.

 

I think for a new person who is looking for food perhaps what we really need is a Crude net or fish trap. One that can be crafted from some branches. Real simple to make. This way they can catch the small fish and make casseroles or meals easily.  Can catch plenty like that to feed yourself.  I would even go so far as to allow some of the small fish to be filleted into smaller portions to even allow them to be able to use some of that catch to grind a little.  Maybe add a more advanced trap made from shafts to even increase fish catch.

 

If they do go back to a que and forget fishing then I propose they keep the current system and just remove the need to actually have to click to catch. the wiki has a chart that tells you everything so there is no mystery to it anymore. Just find the bait for the fish you want to catch and load your tackle box with a stockpile of those reels, lines, bait, floats. I mean at this point we are no longer talking about a newbie looking for survival food since that crude net, trap or basic fishing pole can take care of that. We are at the point of more established toons looking for fish to grind fishing, HFC skill or maybe just for fun. Most of these players should easily get any of the stuff at this point.

 

I do get your point and I am a little conflicted because I do understand the issue but going back to the old system of using a pole that you can que and forget and catch every type of fish with no bait just does not seem right either.

 

 

 

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I don’t have a strong opinion about this question one way or the other; good arguments have been repeatedly put forth on both sides of the debate.  But every time the topic comes up, I get nostalgic about my early days in Wurm and my experience with fishing back then.

 

I started playing shortly before the fishing update.  At that time I had zero interest in combat, even as a means of feeding myself.  Fishing therefore offered a welcome alternative.  I lived on Xanadu near Esteron, and when I got hungry, or when I had an itch to get out and roam, I’d grab my fishing pole and head east on foot to the coast, dodging lava spiders and trolls along the way.  It was a short journey, and the road was well protected by tower guards.  But back then it felt like a real adventure, thrillingly fraught with danger.

 

Once I reached the coast, I’d stand on a dock and fish, taking in the view and checking out the big ships docked in the harbor, dreaming about one day owning one of my own.  I passed the time by browsing through cooking and crafting recipes, reading articles on Wurmpedia, and marveling at the complexity of the game—although I’d only just begun to scratch its surface.  Once I’d caught just enough so I wouldn’t be slowed down by the load, I’d head back home and whip up a tasty fish casserole.

 

When the new system came out, I left fishing behind.  It just wasn’t for me, but I know that others prefer it and I respect that.  Maybe someday I’ll try fishing again, but either way I’ll always look back fondly on my early days as a newbie fisherwoman in Wurm.

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90% of the people I've talked to hated and still hate the current fishing system. It's a drag. It's a chore. It's a headache making 5 extra items just to be able to fish. 

Yes the old system was simple and mind numbing but guess what?

So is fishing in real life. 

 

You just wait to catch a fish. Having that mini game in wurm is just one of those things that makes 1 skill suck due to its lack of rewards. 

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Curious to bring this up, but if the devs are quite intent on keeping the system the same, maybe it would be worth finding a way to massively buff fish so that they're more worthwhile? By this point after posting this, I've means to meat with ease! Though here I am, still dreaming of what Minnie mentioned above - relaxing on a boat or dock, getting some fish and enjoying the views!

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I have to say, I had a very brief look at fishing when I saw "create bait" or some such with an ear of corn I think.  I very quickly reached TL:DR, and went on about my business.  To get food, this is just about the most complicated system I have ever come across.  I don't have time for that.

 

EDIT:  on the other hand, hunting sea beasties is fun

Edited by TheTrickster
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3 hours ago, GucciusMaximus said:

Curious to bring this up, but if the devs are quite intent on keeping the system the same, maybe it would be worth finding a way to massively buff fish so that they're more worthwhile? By this point after posting this, I've means to meat with ease! Though here I am, still dreaming of what Minnie mentioned above - relaxing on a boat or dock, getting some fish and enjoying the views!

 

It's been suggested and ignored for about a year now.

The basic idea that the more effort you put into a system the better the rewards should be is a pretty standard game design feature. One that's lacking in fishing. We all know the bias behind it at this point so I won't bother to mention it but I am curious to see if any new players actually like fishing or stick to something easier like farming.

 

 

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The new fishing is alot more fun than the old one. It is an experience similar to real fishing. 

 

If people want to afk fish just make it a toggle. You can switch to afk fishing and get no gains and no larger fish.

 

Only thing i dont like about fishing and archeology and rift is that they force content in journals.

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As long as it is optional between the two, the old fishing system or the new one.

 

We should get a standard rod with the classic fishing system. Let's see how many actually opt for the new system.

 

Keep in mind you do have the option how to grind certain skills. You can always plant flowers for gardening OR harvest from planters OR improve trelises (I believe those require gardening as well).


Fishing should be the same. Give us the option on how to grind it instead of forcing a particular system.

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I think old system would be fine, but reduce skillgain to make it 60-75% effective compared to someone skilling up with new (more complicated system). Also restrict fish types to reward more specialized system. That way people who want it simpler, have a good way to fish and gain skill/fish meat, but those who really want to get into it, get rewarded with quicker skilling and better rewards. 

Edited by LionIX
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