reducing Steam complaints about Wurm being Free to Play

[elentari 2,660]

Survive? Needed more than 20 FS.  -> This is tied to riding a horse really. Also tied into travelling since you can't realistically explore on foot or large cart without constantly running into stamina issues or eventually becoming the target of some not-so-friendly trolls.

 

Leveling up FS is pretty much done on horseback because you need speed to survive and flee from a tough fight.

 

Large cart?  Same as the horse, but before that I was using a small cart.  But again, my sub was free of charge. - > You can drag a large cart but eventually you will need to transport heavier mats and that requires premium.

 

Sail a decent boat? You mean an advanced boat.  I built and used my own rowboat, and travelled between servers.  Free of charge. -> I'll give you this, rowboats are indeed simple and good starting points. But for big trades or faster boats you need premium.

 

Found a deed?  No I didn't do that, but it was because I didn't have a location picked.  I did not lack the silver.  Free of charge. - > You can always find a cool spot but if you don't deed it fast someone else might. Islands especially tend to be prime real estate. Not to mention there's always that crappy chance someone might deed over your stuff and drama ensues.

 

Plan a 2 story house?  What is a single-story house not part of "real" play?  I have seen plenty of them in-game, are you saying that these people happy to live on one level are not really playing the game? -> Eventually people with want a 2nd storey, or a tower or a castle or w/e they want to plan. You're also capped by 20 carpentry on what you can design.

 

In any case, my point is wurm's gameplay is truly unlocked if you buy premium. Without it, you are severely restricted in what you can do. It's a free demo up to 20 skill just like wow is a free demo up to level 20. If you want the real game you gotta pay subscription. Thus not free to play.

 

If the core of the game requires money to play it, it's not free to play. I don't know how else to phrase this argument.

[Gawain 622]

9 hours ago, elentari said:

Survive? Needed more than 20 FS.  -> This is tied to riding a horse really. Also tied into travelling since you can't realistically explore on foot or large cart without constantly running into stamina issues or eventually becoming the target of some not-so-friendly trolls.

 

Leveling up FS is pretty much done on horseback because you need speed to survive and flee from a tough fight.

 

Large cart?  Same as the horse, but before that I was using a small cart.  But again, my sub was free of charge. - > You can drag a large cart but eventually you will need to transport heavier mats and that requires premium.

 

Sail a decent boat? You mean an advanced boat.  I built and used my own rowboat, and travelled between servers.  Free of charge. -> I'll give you this, rowboats are indeed simple and good starting points. But for big trades or faster boats you need premium.

 

Found a deed?  No I didn't do that, but it was because I didn't have a location picked.  I did not lack the silver.  Free of charge. - > You can always find a cool spot but if you don't deed it fast someone else might. Islands especially tend to be prime real estate. Not to mention there's always that crappy chance someone might deed over your stuff and drama ensues.

 

Plan a 2 story house?  What is a single-story house not part of "real" play?  I have seen plenty of them in-game, are you saying that these people happy to live on one level are not really playing the game? -> Eventually people with want a 2nd storey, or a tower or a castle or w/e they want to plan. You're also capped by 20 carpentry on what you can design.

 

In any case, my point is wurm's gameplay is truly unlocked if you buy premium. Without it, you are severely restricted in what you can do. It's a free demo up to 20 skill just like wow is a free demo up to level 20. If you want the real game you gotta pay subscription. Thus not free to play.

 

If the core of the game requires money to play it, it's not free to play. I don't know how else to phrase this argument.

You can earn money though so no one is saying you have to pay the 10$ a month fee. My first few months I made bricks. Didn’t use it on premium (I wanted fancy stuff) but is viable especially on the new servers. 

[Ekcin 2,406]

10 hours ago, elentari said:

I rarely see a game at launch have a 50/50 positive/neg ratio.

 

Yes, that is a direct consequence of the revenge review crusade.

 

And, get me right, I was and still am critical of the WU support discontinuation, not so much because of the "broken promise" (get real, this is a real economy enterprise which has to care for revenue) but because first it is always unwise to piss off customers and second as this removes synergies. At least update packs for modders could and should have been provided IMHO.

But that does in no way justify revenge crusades trying to undermine the success of WO on steam. That is just lowly and thuggish behaviour, and does not help WU at all.

 

Short after the launch already, the review balance tilted towards negative ("mixed"), and it was not due to complaints about "free to play" but because of WU  and toxic revenge posts. Recently, after thousands of players having been able to experienced the game, the count ("balanced") stands about 380 positive vs. 297 negative.

 

Among the recent negatives there are vicious and quite skilled propaganda pieces like that of "Jenshae", but also relatively balanced ones like from "Nepocrates" who raises some valid points but seems manipulative or at least uninformed (comments deactivated points towards manipulative though). It seems though that the bombers are losing the sabotage game.

 

10 hours ago, elentari said:

The steam reviews regarding the premium subscription I think is due to the game's tag "Free to play" and the fact that the text itself for "Premium subscription"  should be a bit more obvious so people don't miss it. I've read many of the reviews, and some people just don't take the 1-2 minutes require to read WO's description on steam.

 

Well yes, many of the steam people have troubles to read beyond twitter length. At least that renders the review crusade ineffective.

[zethreal 582]

On 7/31/2020 at 2:52 PM, Ecrir said:

Perhaps the subscription system needs to be reworked instead so the f2p part is not misleading?

 

For example:

• Remove the limitation on max skill and max attributes
• Limit priests to premium only (as now)
• Things which currently require more than 20 in an attribute will be limited to premium only
• Skill and attribute gain above 20 will be severely reduced while not premium (think a 50-75% or so reduction. Perhaps slow it down the higher the skill gets so it doesn't feel like running into a wall after 20?)
• Imping gains are severely reduced when imping an item above a certain ql (~25?, perhaps again on a curve) while not premium
• Skill reduces action timers by a lot less than normal while not premium

With the above a free player can do a lot more, but it will also take them way more time and effort, making premium worth it big time. A free player could grind a skill to 100 and imp items to 90+ ql, but in the same time a premium player could imp multiple skills to 100 and imps multiple items to 90+ ql. Since imping gains are nerfed the free player will also require more raw materials and his tools will take more damage since he needs more actions to get the same result.

 

 

Otherwise the store page really needs to be more clear about the f2p part and the subscription part, it's really lacking on information.

Having no skill cap on free would be bad. I could skill up BS to 99, stop paying premium and still imp something to 99 and make silver on it forever.

[TheTrickster 2,284]

13 hours ago, elentari said:

If the core of the game requires money to play it, it's not free to play. I don't know how else to phrase this argument.

 

Yes, this is what it boils down to. I think we disagree on what constitutes the core of the game, but let us assume your own interpretation of that is correct.  Wurm does NOT require money to play that.  It requires a premium subscription, which does not require money. 

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

1 hour ago, TheTrickster said:

 

Yes, this is what it boils down to. I think we disagree on what constitutes the core of the game, but let us assume your own interpretation of that is correct.  Wurm does NOT require money to play that.  It requires a premium subscription, which does not require money. 

 

 

You know some people can be working two or even  three parttime  jobs, spending a few hours a day just commuting and getting ready for the next job,  and STILL have problems making ends meet, and paying basic food rent clothes medical etc? They might have 2-6 hours a week for a game if that.   I know the usual response is to tell them "hey just get a better job! Like I did!" but I don't think some people who are well off, realize how much others are truly struggling.  Some people who have kids and families and cannot spend hours a day just grinding bricks et al for other people, at what works out to maybe 50 cents an hour. Or maybe they can, but that is not their idea of a game!

 

Some people love the challenge of grinding to make a way in Wurm. Others just want to play a game with their friends in their non working hours, not invest the majority of their time at what feels to them like "work."  Is it technically possible? Yes I know it is. Can we get really legalistic and say "well you could if you were determined enough!" Sure. I mean, they might not be able to do it themselves, but sure! Someone out there could!  And has!

 

But do we really want to keep losing the hundreds of players who like Wurm but not THAT much, not enough to become a temp slave just to be able to progress at all? Just because someone else was able to do it?  If people want to see the servers be more populated, while STILL bringing in enough money for game development and server costs, we are not going to do it by shooing off anyone we think is "undeserving" of a spot in Wurm. People are assuming everyone else out there, is living in THEIR shoes, dealing with THEIR finances and THEIR free time schedules, and willing to work hours a day on a "game". Not everyone is wearing those same shoes, but we could still use some of them here with us.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 4, 2020 by Brash_Endeavors

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

9 hours ago, Gawain said:

You can earn money though so no one is saying you have to pay the 10$ a month fee. My first few months I made bricks. Didn’t use it on premium (I wanted fancy stuff) but is viable especially on the new servers. 

 

 

Can you imagine explaining to a potential player how if they spend months making bricks, staring at a little craft window and chip chip chip hours every day, hour after hour after hour, they might be able to enjoy the game as a "free to play" player? Working as a slave for other players?   The problem is that wurm's unique brand of ingame economy of "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps"  won't work for everyone, it works only for a few. Those with lots of time, those who do not mind making bricks for hour after hour, for months, just to get to the stage where they can finally "play for free". Not so much those just looking for a few hours of relaxing fun with their friends.

 

Yes I know devs need money for development. There are LOTS of ways to bring in income besides charging a subscription for lower level content, server costs are pretty much a fixed costs and new players are NOT running up additional expenses there.  Instead, they act as additional FREE CONTENT for the devs. The thing that keeps players happiest, is other players. More than new game mechanics, dyes, banners, shiny things etc. Just other people. And that's not such a hard thing to add, once you start letting in people who cannot meet the costs of a monthly sub. Wurm's biggest ever drop did NOT come from WU as some like to imply. It first started when the devs hiked the game's original low subscription price, back in 2013. You can see that clear as day if you look at player counts for those years. 

 

 We have already had first hand experience as a community, about what  happens when you have a dying population. It just keeps dying!.Success breeds success, and a dying game only keeps dying.  This is our chance to make Wurm more vibrant and dynamic and exciting for new players, by welcoming them instead of asking to see their wallets before letting them in the door. "Are you GOOD enough to join us? Hmmph, I thought not! Bye!"

 

One mayor spends money to buy a large deed and hopes to get lots of villagers. He loves their company! He loves playing Lord of the Manor! Maybe even budgets a couple hundred a month, for land and upkeep and priests and enough silver to buy whatever they want, maybe even buys armor and tools and weapons for their villagers (not great ones but maybe generic 50Q stuff).

 

But when all of those little villagers start dropping out of the game because of its cost, the big mayors with their big deeds and their big purchases are not very far behind them. Income for the game plummets.

 

This is the cycle Wurm has been running the past ten years. The first HUGE surge in players, came right after developers decided to allow ANY free to play players on the "premium only servers" back in 2010-2011 (I was one of those). Until then, you couldn't even leave the tutorial server unless you bought a subscriotion first. Then the huge swell from opening the gates to F2P, stopped cold when they hiked the sub costs in 2013. Then UP for new servers, in 2013-2015, then DOWN once the new server spark faded. Then UP for Steam Launch, probably soon DOWN. It's not because people don't  like Wurm, but because it is too expensive for a so-called "free to play" gam unless you are willing to actually make it a secind job (third or fourth job for some).   It's really NOT a free to play game, though some people with enough time love the challenge of making it into one. 

 

 Like a tide, in they all come, then like a tide out they all go... Constantly losing players faster than we gain them, except maybe once every few years when we have a short term temporary uptick. Like 2010. Like 2014. And again like now. But we are never having another Steam launch to start a new cycle, we only get ONE of those.   What will we do for our next trick, since maintaining a sustainable cycle seems beyond Wurm's grasp?

 

Ultima Online is estimated to have 295,553 total players. Old School RuneScape is estimated to have 27,381,666 total players. (*source:  https://mmo-population.com/)    Those are so-called "niche games" that still manage to do quite well.  They pay for their servers, they pay for their devs. They have stayed alive for over two decades when other flashier games fail.

 

If Wurm remains a tiny niche game with a  declining playerbase, it is because that is what it has chosen to be. 

 

 

 

Edited August 4, 2020 by Brash_Endeavors

[Fairyshine 3,183]

1 hour ago, Brash_Endeavors said:

 

 

You know some people can be working two or even  three parttime  jobs, spending a few hours a day just commuting and getting ready for the next job,  and STILL have problems making ends meet, and paying basic food rent clothes medical etc? They might have 2-6 hours a week for a game if that.   I know the usual response is to tell them "hey just get a better job! Like I did!" but I don't think some people who are well off, realize how much others are truly struggling.  Some people who have kids and families and cannot spend hours a day just grinding bricks et al for other people, at what works out to maybe 50 cents an hour. Or maybe they can, but that is not their idea of a game!

 

Some people love the challenge of grinding to make a way in Wurm. Others just want to play a game with their friends in their non working hours, not invest the majority of their time at what feels to them like "work."  Is it technically possible? Yes I know it is. Can we get really legalistic and say "well you could if you were determined enough!" Sure. I mean, they might not be able to do it themselves, but sure! Someone out there could!  And has!

 

But do we really want to keep losing the hundreds of players who like Wurm but not THAT much, not enough to become a temp slave just to be able to progress at all? Just because someone else was able to do it?  If people want to see the servers be more populated, while STILL bringing in enough money for game development and server costs, we are not going to do it by shooing off anyone we think is "undeserving" of a spot in Wurm. People are assuming everyone else out there, is living in THEIR shoes, dealing with THEIR finances and THEIR free time schedules, and willing to work hours a day on a "game". Not everyone is wearing those same shoes, but we could still use some of them here with us.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

100 %   Here is my two cents on this, and I only speak as a person who actually has a job, family and things outside of my Wurm world:  I love the game.  I love the challenge.  But at some point you have to wonder if you really want to log in and just do things over and over and over again to keep your animals fed, you items repaired, your house walls not decaying, your meat stocks up etc.  When Wurm  Online started feeling like a chore every day, I tried a few other WU servers and also other Steam games and lo and behold, I was surprised to discover that many games do not cap your skillgain or limit the quality of the stuff you can get/create in the game, just because you don't pay for premium or subscription or VIP or whatever else the game calls it.  Many have shops where players could buy mostly cosmetic stuff if they choose to do so (most do from time to time).  Many offer optional packs which opens up new worlds for a once off fee.  Many also offer unique mounts or vehicles or weapons or clothing or change in how you look or titles or "eggs" which will hatch to give something cute, for a price in their shops.  It gives automatic rewards for things you can do in the game. These rewards are on your level, advance your skills, and is generally enough to easily pay your house/plot/land if you choose to spend it on that.  This is the type of gaming experiences many Steam players who now come to Wurm Online, will be expecting.  Yes, people can say that other games offer options of "pay if you choose to advance faster, but play and gain skill regardless" but at least they choose that option.  They would baulk at the option of "you have to pay or else you don't get to play".  And no, making bricks or planks all day long is not "play".  It is senselessly clicking your mouse to make enough bricks to hope to sell it so you get to do it all again next month.  Wurm is an awesome game, and yes, it takes dedication.  But it is not free to play if you want more and more enjoyment and challenge out of it.  You can't really get the full experience if you cap your skills at 20 and you reached that limit already.  Again, my two cents on this.  Notice I still log in on occasion and play for hours (days), but in general the Steam client would expect a free game to be just that:  Full experience, free to play.

Edited August 4, 2020 by Fairyshine

[Platyna 521]

Let's make 1 week premium for free, and then you pay or play with cap. 

[TheTrickster 2,284]

2 hours ago, Brash_Endeavors said:

 

 

You know some people can be working two or even  three parttime  jobs, spending a few hours a day just commuting and getting ready for the next job,  and STILL have problems making ends meet, and paying basic food rent clothes medical etc? They might have 2-6 hours a week for a game if that.   I know the usual response is to tell them "hey just get a better job! Like I did!" but I don't think some people who are well off, realize how much others are truly struggling.  Some people who have kids and families and cannot spend hours a day just grinding bricks et al for other people, at what works out to maybe 50 cents an hour. Or maybe they can, but that is not their idea of a game!

 

Some people love the challenge of grinding to make a way in Wurm. Others just want to play a game with their friends in their non working hours, not invest the majority of their time at what feels to them like "work."  Is it technically possible? Yes I know it is. Can we get really legalistic and say "well you could if you were determined enough!" Sure. I mean, they might not be able to do it themselves, but sure! Someone out there could!  And has!

 

But do we really want to keep losing the hundreds of players who like Wurm but not THAT much, not enough to become a temp slave just to be able to progress at all? Just because someone else was able to do it?  If people want to see the servers be more populated, while STILL bringing in enough money for game development and server costs, we are not going to do it by shooing off anyone we think is "undeserving" of a spot in Wurm. People are assuming everyone else out there, is living in THEIR shoes, dealing with THEIR finances and THEIR free time schedules, and willing to work hours a day on a "game". Not everyone is wearing those same shoes, but we could still use some of them here with us.

 

 

I get what you are saying, but I was in no way determined.  After 9 months my highest skill is mid 40s - my Body Strength is 22 so  I still can't load 🤪.    I have not yet sold a single brick (although I did sell a rare fragment of one the other week).  I am very much a casual player, both in the time I put in and my style of play.  Half the time I just travel around looking at stuff.  

 

I do think the mix could be hugely improved.  For instance characteristic caps should be higher, and skill caps could stand to be higher.  I personally think that the skill gain rate should be differentiated rather than a low cap to skills.  That allows non-premium to progress while still incentivizing premium.  I also never bought the justification for dropping the 2 silver in-game initial premium and think that should be reinstated.  I even agree that notice about optional subscription should be more prominent on the Steam page.  Also the nagware notices about skills that are at cap are annoying and unnecessary.  Maybe once per login session is okay, but after that it is is just offputting.

 

However, none of that negates the fact that Wurm really is F2P.  

 

Maybe I am just too old school.  I well remember shareware on floppies, with notable titles like DukeNukem3d and Descent, where you played a free game and then reached the end and there was no more unless you paid for it.  A game where you can effectively continue for ever but only in a limited capacity is about as close to a free lunch we are going to get.

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

1 hour ago, TheTrickster said:

Maybe I am just too old school.  I well remember shareware on floppies, with notable titles like DukeNukem3d and Descent, where you played a free game and then reached the end and there was no more unless you paid for it.  A game where you can effectively continue for ever but only in a limited capacity is about as close to a free lunch we are going to get.

 

 

I am probably older than you, though I got a "late start" in computers, discovering them in 1995. I do remember all those shareware CDs from PCGamer though   Some of the more popular and successful ones actually included the full game and simply asked that those who could, help pay for those who couldn't.  

 

And some of those games HAVE managed to survive as purely "free lunch" versions even today -- Dwarf Fortress springs to mind. Unreal World (finnish iron age survival game) is another, with a paid steam version plus a free version on its homepage. In fact, Dwarf Fortress is about to have its own "steam launch" here shortly with a total UI / Graphical makeover, but even people happy with the original ASCII version and the modded fanmade graphics packs, are planning to buy Steam versions too just to support the game, and to get friends to play. Same happened when Unreal World had it's steam launch -- people who already had the full version, very often paid again for the paid version to show their support for its 20+ years of active development.

 

Not MMOs so not really the same, as Dwarf Fortress and Unreal World don't have to manage server costs, or deal with constant customer service issues like Enki and his wonderful team handle.   And of course their content updates are a lot more slowly eked out, being mostly very small teams that make Wurm's payroll look huge. But both games DO continue to update.

 

For online examples though: The Ream Online -- one of the first MMOs in the world -- is reputedly now free to play, though I  don't know much about how that game or its business model works. Just that it is still out there. Unknown if that is a good example or a bad one. Star Wars The Old Republic has been mentioned a few times as a "free to play with optional subscription" -- this list shows what is actually "free" and what is not. It's a lot more generous that Wurm's "free" version.

 

But the point is, if you get a game people love enough, they will help find a way to make it work. And the more people able to play, the merrier. 

 

 

 

Edited August 4, 2020 by Brash_Endeavors

[TheTrickster 2,284]

1 hour ago, Brash_Endeavors said:

I am probably older than you

 

That's probably not playing fair, as I am old-school enough to not ask 😇.

 

I am 51.  We had an Atari 2600, so I started playing early.  I was the gunner to my friend's pilot when we played Elite on his Acorn.  One of the things I really like about Wurm is that it has a similar "feel" to Thief.

 

I do remember the model of "pay me if you like it."  I used to get a mail-order catalogue of such games and utilities.  They made their money on selling the diskettes, of which I still have a bunch.

 

From memory both DN3 and Descent had a bit of trouble making real money in their first instalments because the free levels felt like playing thought a whole game.

 

I also have a bunch of CDs from APC magazine (including a few versions of OSes and a couple of whole programming development suites).  I was surprised the other day when someone didn't know what CD snot is.

 

Yes, I would agree regarding "not generous".  

[Zera 175]

So most of these posts are longer than I care to read in all honesty, but I want to point out that one of the first things mentioned on the Steam Store Page is the following:
 

Quote

Premium Subscription

Wurm Online is a Free-to-play sandbox MMORPG with a premium subscription. The premium subscription allows you to access such things as:

• Allowing skill gain past 20, meaning the ability to ride more creatures such as horses, vehicles, and build even larger buildings
• Increased rare item chance
• Ability to invite villagers into your settlement
• And much more

Premium prices start at 4 euro per month for new accounts in our special starter bonus!

So, it is mentioned..