Hanel

Tent 'deeds' everywhere

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Posted (edited)

I have no problems with noobie tents unless they are placed in a way that obscures the view (e.g. on the highways) or ruins the aesthetics. 

Edited by Platyna
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On 7/29/2020 at 6:57 AM, Hanel said:

So it seems people believe if they plop down their tent someplace it's their deed and so inviolate especially if they've done a bit of work on the land. Yet they've not bothered to spend a penny for a deed. They are everyplace. What is the official stand on all of the tent 'deeds'? If I deed over them am I an ahole? I'd really like to see some official stance on this because it has gotten out of control. 

 

BTW, I think many believe this tent deeding is part and parcel of 'free play'.

 

 

Are people saying the area where they are working is inviolate or is that the way it is being interpreted?  Are they planning to only "tent-deed" as you call it or are they working on getting some skills behind them before going premium?  Or perhaps working on building up a little silver before committing it to deed upkeep?

 

Basically you seem to be unhappy with crowding, which is a natural result of a popular server launch, and the fact that people are setting up nearby.  I am not sure if that is actually a problem at this stage.

 

If by "tent deeding" you mean pitching a tent to keep stuff secure while doing some work that isn't on a paid-for deed, then yes that is indeed part and parcel of free play; as it should be.

 

 

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On 7/28/2020 at 2:09 PM, Beanbag said:

There are two general rules to abide by, which are sometimes in conflict:

 

1. Deed it or lose it

2. Don't be a jerk

 

Historical precedent tends to favor rule 1 in case of conflict 

This sums up our approach to such cases very nicely.

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Shrimpiie said:

 

This sums up our approach to such cases very nicely.

 

@ShrimpiieActually this bothers me since quite a long time, it is vague and prone of too much interpretation. While I can understand that a person who pays for land has the priority to use it, AFAIR a deed is just an option. If a newbie gets a free horse and puts it in off deed pen and other player will smash the fences and take the animals, is it stealing or not? Stealing is not allowed on PVE, or is it? Recently a player broke into my off deed mine, he destroyed the mine door, and by all the definitions, it is burglary, and I was told by several people that this is completely legal. Things like that should never be allowed on a PVE servers. And these two rules you quoted really needs clarification and definition of scope of their application. There is a difference between a person deeding over a mine or a pen - paying to use the land, and a person who just gains access by destroying the security.

Edited by Platyna

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The only true ownership of land is by purchasing. 

 

Claiming via other means is temporary and does not carry the aspect of ownership when it comes to gm review

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2 hours ago, Platyna said:

 

@ShrimpiieActually this bothers me since quite a long time, it is vague and prone of too much interpretation. While I can understand that a person who pays for land has the priority to use it, AFAIR a deed is just an option. If a newbie gets a free horse and puts it in off deed pen and other player will smash the fences and take the animals, is it stealing or not? Stealing is not allowed on PVE, or is it? Recently a player broke into my off deed mine, he destroyed the mine door, and by all the definitions, it is burglary, and I was told by several people that this is completely legal. Things like that should never be allowed on a PVE servers. And these two rules you quoted really needs clarification and definition of scope of their application. There is a difference between a person deeding over a mine or a pen - paying to use the land, and a person who just gains access by destroying the security.

The intention is to in fact be wide ranging, so as to better allow moderation a certain latitude for dealing with all different case types, rather than the need for there to be 100 or more rules covering every aspect of action that can possibly be done against another player(s), and what is/isn't griefing. There is no clarification needed here nor definition explained.

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3 hours ago, Retrograde said:

The only true ownership of land is by purchasing. 

 

Claiming via other means is temporary and does not carry the aspect of ownership when it comes to gm review

Which is understandable.

What isn't is why complete newbies cannot be warned about this that they cant claim land with tents. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Shrimpiie said:

The intention is to in fact be wide ranging, so as to better allow moderation a certain latitude for dealing with all different case types, rather than the need for there to be 100 or more rules covering every aspect of action that can possibly be done against another player(s), and what is/isn't griefing. There is no clarification needed here nor definition explained.

 

Wide-ranging rules cause...wide-ranging interpretations. I am not saying GMs are not fair or something like that, but they are people, and they have different opinions about different things, which may cause contradicting rulings. No one here speaks about 100 rules, but property rules are important and should be well-defined for the ease of players and staff.

 

There is a rule about stealing deeds (how it is even possible without bug exploitation which is covered by a different rule?) or player traps (does anyone even does that on PVE?). The "deed it or lose it" - which is one of most important rules - is not included at all in the rule book, and "Play nice" has nothing about off deed property, in its defining points. Not to mention these unincluded rules in  most cases contradict each other. Let's use the mine example - if a player breaks into a mine by destroying the mine door - do he plays nice? Obviously not, but is the breaking into off deed structures allowed? According to what @Retrogradesaid, it is. Not to mention that most of the people have no idea about the above. IMHO there is a huge difference between the cases if someone deeds a land - they pay for it, they want to live there or otherwise long term use the land, and when someone just destroys the security measures placed by other player to remove the protected content. I am playing 4 months, and I have read the rules, I am reading the forums, and while I had the idea it is legal to deed over someone mines I had no idea it is legal to break in. These poor newbies probably also have no idea that their tents, pens and fields are not enough to claim the land.

Edited by Platyna

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Posted (edited)

In my opinion, the problem lies by the playerbase and not the rules / moderation. Here is a simplification of how I see it:

On one end, people want to claim land for themselves and have this land be safe from other people, even to the extent of putting up a 100x100 wooden fence over undeed land.
On the other end, people want to be able to loot, and usually do so if things are not on a deed.

The playerbase (not every single person that plays Wurm, but many) wants it both ways - they want to take, but not be taken from. This contradicts a bit and at the end of the day there is always someone who feels the rules were not in their favor. I also feel that the more rules we implement into the world of Wurm, the less it feels like an open world. Oh, and people always find loopholes. The US tax code, for example, is written out to quite a complex degree, to the point where only the most hardcore can really take the time to learn it and use it to their advantage.

As for players not knowing - there is a clear, bold, large text warning when you first drop an item on undeeded land. You can´t pick things up in the starter town. I found it to be very clear early on that there is a way to claim land, and not doing so puts you at a risk. There are also 20 different ways to find this information, and there are probably 20 veterans who have mentioned it in-game along the way as well - at least that is how it was when I started... so I wouldn´t claim that it is some kind of secret that only veterans are aware of.

I find the official stance on this to be perfectly sensible and realistic. The less GMs interfere, the better. I know others would like a lot more moderation in several areas of the game, but a police state in Wurm Online is probably not going to go down well.

 

Edited by Hilo
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The rules are fine

 

New players just need to be made aware of them, that's all. 

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As a fresh noob only 4 months ago, I learned very quickly the place I had spawned at was a deed and that I too could plant my own deed because of the deed stake in my inventory. From such I used the wurmipedia to do research of deeds to get a better understanding of how they worked and if it was worth it to deed.

 

I think for many it may be less of "I didn't know deeds were a thing" and more "I have yet to get the silver to have a deed" 

(I know the minimum deed size is pretty cheap, but that they may not know or wish to save up before hand anyhow) 

 

With all the deeds that do pop up I imagine it's not hard to figure out one can deed land if they so choose to. It's not like it's some big secret. 
 

Whilst I'm sure there may be some fresh faces that have yet to discover deeding I doubt it's a big issue. 🤷‍♂️

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I will personally invest 100 euros of silver into deeding any tent along that coastline if I have to, just saying

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It's probably going to cost you more than 100 euros, just sayin'.

 

And those tents on undeeded land are going to be decaying fairly soon.

 

 

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On 8/1/2020 at 9:23 AM, Platyna said:

 

Wide-ranging rules cause...wide-ranging interpretations. I am not saying GMs are not fair or something like that, but they are people, and they have different opinions about different things, which may cause contradicting rulings. No one here speaks about 100 rules, but property rules are important and should be well-defined for the ease of players and staff.

 

There is a rule about stealing deeds (how it is even possible without bug exploitation which is covered by a different rule?) or player traps (does anyone even does that on PVE?). The "deed it or lose it" - which is one of most important rules - is not included at all in the rule book, and "Play nice" has nothing about off deed property, in its defining points. Not to mention these unincluded rules in  most cases contradict each other. Let's use the mine example - if a player breaks into a mine by destroying the mine door - do he plays nice? Obviously not, but is the breaking into off deed structures allowed? According to what @Retrogradesaid, it is. Not to mention that most of the people have no idea about the above. IMHO there is a huge difference between the cases if someone deeds a land - they pay for it, they want to live there or otherwise long term use the land, and when someone just destroys the security measures placed by other player to remove the protected content. I am playing 4 months, and I have read the rules, I am reading the forums, and while I had the idea it is legal to deed over someone mines I had no idea it is legal to break in. These poor newbies probably also have no idea that their tents, pens and fields are not enough to claim the land.

 

Rules are quite simple

 

You are one of the very few that try to twist the rules to suit your needs when it suits and when it doesn't cry "illness" not my fault...

 

 

you broke into a persons penned animal farm to take his cattle, as its was not deeded as it was within the rules and now your saying someone broke into your undeeded mine and its unfair?

 

To me the rules are pretty much easy to understand, but you have and still do try to push them to suit the needs of the time, yes I know I will be reported by you and I may get a mod ban on the forums but you have caused so much upset and more than one player to quit and then cried "but am ill" which is no excuses I just have to post.

 

the rules are in the most pretty simple, couple of little grey areas that the Dev team work well to sort out, just a shame that some people are jerks and bend the rules as much as possible .

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Posted (edited)

There is always ENKI'S RULE

(aka, "Play Nice Or I'll Rip Your Heart Out")

Which is there precisely to cover the people who try to hide behind the "letter of the law":

 

 

 

 

"There are the mechanical rules that govern the game quite well in most aspects of Wurm Online.  We want this to be as open as possible with the community highly and directly involved in the evolution of the Wurm world. 

 

"Unfortunately, there is also the Play Nice or we will rip your heart out rule.  Why?  I am glad you asked  even if you didn't.  Sometimes there will be people who will abuse the letter of the rules to go against the intent of the rules for the sole purpose of driving other members away or inflict some some form of activity on PVE servers that should not be tolerated outside of PVP.  That is the simplest explanation."

 

-- Enki

 

Edited by Brash_Endeavors
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Posted (edited)
On 8/2/2020 at 5:33 PM, Badvoc said:

 

Rules are quite simple

 

You are one of the very few that try to twist the rules to suit your needs when it suits and when it doesn't cry "illness" not my fault...

 

 

you broke into a persons penned animal farm to take his cattle, as its was not deeded as it was within the rules and now your saying someone broke into your undeeded mine and its unfair?

 

To me the rules are pretty much easy to understand, but you have and still do try to push them to suit the needs of the time, yes I know I will be reported by you and I may get a mod ban on the forums but you have caused so much upset and more than one player to quit and then cried "but am ill" which is no excuses I just have to post.

 

the rules are in the most pretty simple, couple of little grey areas that the Dev team work well to sort out, just a shame that some people are jerks and bend the rules as much as possible .

 

ASD is not an illness, and ignorant and discriminatory comments like the one above are the reason why I openly speak about being an ASD person. ASD people are not mentally ill. Educate yourself, this will let you understand other, different, people, better. All I ever asked is assumption of a good will, simple rules and simple communication that would improve interaction for all of us - ASD and NT (neurotypical) and also NT-NT (there are multiple publications proving that), as not only ASD affects how do we understand the world, also our culture, age etc. NT people seem weird to us same as we seem weird to them. This has nothing to do with "douche passes", but has a lot to do with letting one more of every seventy persons to enjoy human interaction, online entertainment, work, and die from old age surrounded by friends instead of killing themselves due to depression and despair. 

 

People who want to bend the rules do not ask for them to be more clear. I am not the only person who asks for the rule clarifications and no person ever doing that should be berated. Last clarification was posted by a GM on Saturday about chat rules on PVP channels and it is a good thing. We pay for this game, we like it, and it is quite clear we don't want to get banned, especially not for some misunderstanding. 

 

About me breaking into pens and taking the animals - first, this never happened,  I got my herd from another player who brought them to me because he had no space or time to keep them, long time before I was capable of destroying structures, second, taking abandoned animals is not illegal (yes, I did a ticket to get this clarified too). 

 

I am an ASD person, I have my fixations, and one of them is collecting logs, not only I collect them (some reach 1996), I am also not bad at working with them and extracting the information I need. So if you want to publish untrue statements about things that can be extracted from logs, this has very short legs. I got Body Strength 21 at April 8th, when I already had 106 animals, planted 34 tiles of thatch to repair the pastures and my Animal Husbandry skill increased from 38 to 39. I can tell exactly what, when and how many actions in game I did at any given date.  PS. however came with the idea to, by default, log everything we do in game, know that you are my true hero, I love it!

Edited by Platyna

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On 7/29/2020 at 4:27 PM, Platyna said:

I have no problems with noobie tents unless they are placed in a way that obscures the view (e.g. on the highways) or ruins the aesthetics. 

 

I used to think about views, etc, and I still do to an extent, but if there's one thing I've learned in Wurm is that you simply can't control everything that goes on outside your deed. You can try, and maybe have some success of it, but over time it just gets harder and harder.

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Posted (edited)

Are we not all happy about the higher player population in Wurm now? I am and I would never deed over a place that looks like someone wants to settle. If you want open lands with no one living on the shore: Go to the old servers.

To all those newbies reading here: Build a little house and people can not deed over it.  Doesnt need a roof, just 4 walls and you are save. You can even have grass inside for your cow or horse.  Thats a save way to live without a deed for a beginning, but check the walls for decay and repair them regularly.

Every newbie that enjoys the game is a potential deed owner later on... if you bully them away, well then you should ask yourself why you even started on such a populated server? Is it the hope for business? Then you need customers who stay on the server and buy from you, right? 

Edited by Sirene
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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Sirene said:

Are we not all happy about the higher player population in Wurm now? I am and I would never deed over a place that looks like someone wants to settle. If you want open lands with no one living on the shore: Go to the old servers.

To all those newbies reading here: Build a little house and people can not deed over it.  Doesnt need a roof, just 4 walls and you are save. You can even have grass inside for your cow or horse.  Thats a save way to live without a deed for a beginning, but check the walls for decay and repair them regularly.

Every newbie that enjoys the game is a potential deed owner later on... if you bully them away, well then you should ask yourself why you even started on such a populated server? Is it the hope for business? Then you need customers who stay on the server and buy from you, right? 

 

The deed perimeter still can be placed over your house, and then the deed permissions will prevent you from repairing it and improving. Best would be if newbies would form groups, forage and chip in for a deed for themselves. 

Edited by Platyna
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23 minutes ago, Sirene said:

To all those newbies reading here: Build a little house and people can not deed over it. 

Doesnt need a roof, just 4 walls and you are save. 

Thats a save way to live without a deed for a beginning, but check the walls for decay and repair them regularly.

 

Its not at all safe to live like this :(

That little house can be put in a perimeter and then the houseowner cant repair  his house.

So its not safe the day someone come and place perimeter over the house so they can deed 

House in perimeter cant be repeard.

 

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On 8/3/2020 at 11:15 AM, Platyna said:

About me breaking into pens and taking the animals - first, this never happened,  I got my herd from another player who brought them to me because he had no space or time to keep them, long time before I was capable of destroying structures, second, taking abandoned animals is not illegal (yes, I did a ticket to get this clarified too). 

 

Rubbish you and another person went and "rescued" the cattle, you begged for quite sometime to get this person to help you rescue said animals, he did the bashing you did the taking, you forget I was there, but within the rules that's fine, seemed the deed had fallen or so it was said in local. I was there that night when you agreed with that person that you would look after the cattle and he would milk them, 2 days later you locked him out and told him tough, on your deed he can do one. Sums you up really.

 

You also pick and choose when the rules suit, deeding over peoples mines and saying "deed it or lose it" and  so many other examples, so much so you have quite the bad rep in game and I would expect with the devs also.

 

Fact is the game devs and GM's arent stupid people and I think 99% of the time really do sort things out well within a combo of game rules and common sense, I trust the team to do what is right.

 

Noticed on the new servers so far things have been pretty darn good,  at least where I am, no major problems and between the old hands helping the newbies and the tutorial seems things aren't too bad at all.

 

 

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Please take personal disputes out of this thread - I recommend PMs.  If you really feel you have a grievance that needs publicly airing, you can create a separate thread for it, but I will remind you that your reputation is your own, and keeping things respectful makes it less likely that your posts will be removed.

 

Pandalet (LFM)

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