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Platyna

An official statement request about clarification of highway rules.

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Badvoc there is a huge difference between putting a highway (or anything else) on an empty steppe and destroying some other player's fields. No decent road builder will destroy something other player built (unless clear signs or abandonment are visible) without asking them first, it is obvious that if you do something like that you will bring an angry response upon yourself. Same goes to reroutes into orchards or rare plant fields, destroying tundra etc. there should be always a gain and loss calculation. 

 

@RetrogradeCould you clarify what does that mean "known to be disruptive"? Are there any other criteria of disruptive road work besides destroying other people field, orchards and structures (which seems to be covered by a non griefing rule)? On one side it is obviously mean, but on the other we are being told "deed it or lose it" - it is something that also could use some more clarification as these two seem to be two contradicting interpretations, as there are many conflicts all over the Wurm based on it, especially when it comes to trees and fields (so called "perimeter wars"). Sorry for all these questions, but I was told by other road builders, from several locations, that if I want to do it I should be prepared to for constant complaints to GMs, which kinda ruins a pleasure of doing that and is stressful (which is also a reason why I made this thread, as I am soon going to Xanadu to participate in a huge highway project). Maybe some more detailed guidelines would save up staff time and us stressful situations. 

Edited by Platyna

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2 minutes ago, Platyna said:

@RetrogradeWhat does that mean "known to be disruptive"? Are there any other criteria of disruptive road work besides destroying other people field, orchards and structures? On one side it is obviously mean, but on the other we are being told "deed it or lose it" - it is something that also could use some more clarification as there are many conflicts all over the Wurm based on it, especially when it comes to trees and fields. 

 

Very good question, its why i asked mine is a lot of the time in game we are told deed it or lose it and if the game allows it its fine, which isn't in the spirit of the game and why I am happy that in the cases that's needed GMs can and will override games systems like the example about when a GM allowed a highway to be removed because it damaged someone's field. 

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Just because an area appears 'empty', doesn't mean it doesn't have people living nearby who care about the appearance.  Not everyone wants a highway through their back yard.  But of course, I'm sure you already know all this, including working with others instead of against them.

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3 hours ago, Wonka said:

Just because an area appears 'empty', doesn't mean it doesn't have people living nearby who care about the appearance.  Not everyone wants a highway through their back yard.  But of course, I'm sure you already know all this, including working with others instead of against them.

 

Backyard of the deed is the deed perimeter, which is protected by the game mechanics from unwanted highways and buildings, but it is also noteworthy that @Retrogradeclearly stated deed perimeters are not owned. Regulations about perimeters or undeeded land could and and in my opinion, should be also included in the rules, it would spare us so much trouble (both staff and players). It shouldn't ever matter if someone lives close or not, you want a piece of land under your exclusive usage, game requires you to deed it or fence it, all land beyond this is public for us all to use. It would be a lot of trouble to define who is nearby and who is not nearby. But I am afraid we deviate too much from the original topic. I think the matter was exhausted by a staff member so it can be closed. 

 

 

Edited by Platyna

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On 7/15/2020 at 5:39 AM, Platyna said:

there is a huge difference between putting a highway... on an empty steppe and destroying some other player's fields.

 

honestly, I think this kind of thinking points toward the heart of what Badvoc was asking about, and what Wonka said... The player in the hypothetical is making a judgment call based on their perception of the lay of the land.  That player might see what they think is "just an empty steppe" - but if you asked the locals, they would say "that's our public game preserve." They've all agreed not to deed that land, and to keep it open and empty steppe so that the local community has access to animal spawns. 

And, as Badvoc was suggesting, the locals would be pretty upset if they logged in to find work had been started building a major highway across the land that they've been so carefully preserving for community use. As the responses to this thread have confirmed - if it is not deeded land, then yeah - no actual rules were broken.... but there is virtue in not being a complete tool

I agree with what I think Wonka was trying to add to the conversation - each player can look out at the same area of land in Wurm and see completely different things. This perception, the plans we imagine, the things we think are "improvements" - these are all subjective, they are all relative. In the land of Wurm, there is no objective truth to the reality; we are here playing because we're literally supposed to be changing the world around us to suit our concepts and dreams. Some players like building impressive plateaus and castles built atop crazy steep rises.... some players absolutely hate how those plateaus look. But that doesn't mean I'm going to complain when my "picturesque view" is changed by a new neighbor who favors a different architecture than I do. After all, we have to live with each other, better to work together pleasantly than not. 

I guess, in the end, what I'm trying to sum up here is....  what goes on in Wurm is never as simple as for- or against- The Rules. Even on deeded land, what a player builds and how they build it is going to be seen, to be experienced, by other players as part of their overall gameplay experience of Wurm. While technically things done on-deed are "following The Rules" - this does not guarantee that all other players are going to accept that as the only factor that influences their perception. Especially roadways and specifically highways, which are used by the Wurm general public. So it behooves a player to not just clarify exactly what The Rules are, and then follow them to the letter... there is also acting in good faith to communicate with others, especially if the player is building in a neighboring locality instead of their own.

 

After all, not everyone is going to enjoy the aesthetic of your "custom paving patterns" or whatnot. 

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15 hours ago, Platyna said:

 

 But I am afraid we deviate too much from the original topic. I think the matter was exhausted by a staff member so it can be closed. 

 

 

 

I disagree Platyna and think this is all part of the same topic, I would hate to see this discussion shut down just because maybe you disagree with the way its going.

 As you have stated above being clear on what the game rules state and what the GM's feel is in the spirit of the game is very important not just for us older players but also for all the new players we all hope are going to come and join us in this wonderful world called wurm.

 

I also understand that you find road building and trading your passions in wurm and thats great and even though we don't see eye to eye you pay your money and you should play the game the way you get the most fun out of it, but and i say this from the heart so long as your playstyle causes no harm to others. We should always been mindful to other peoples feelings.

 

Lets say I decided I wanted to roll play a cattle rustler, so I level up my skills to this aim, dress and talk like that, really get into the spirit of it and then go around and bash walls to gain access to off deed cattle. Now I maybe am having a blast and really enjoying this playstyle and in my eyes doing no wrong, its only a game and the game has a set way to protect your cattle ( on deed ) but I am spoiling another persons game play. This then becomes a very grey area under the rules ( deed it or lose it )  but as a moral or in the spirit of the game its black and white, and that playstyle is just wrong as its causing harm or upset to others.

 

So it seems there is a grey area with regards the rules on highways, sure having a good connected route across wurm is important but also the wishes of the players who maybe disagree with the amount, placement, style of highways and to avoid nasty in game run ins my question was to try and make things less "grey" Which Retro answered to a point. 

 

Highways are a special case imo for this kind of discussion as once built the game rules state you cant change it, reason for my question. Very easy to add to or expand highways much much harder to get rid of one.

 

@Amata ty for your post you summed it up perfectly and I think hits the nail on the head what I was trying to get across. 

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Badvoc, please stop making any personal references to me, what I like or not like doesn't matter here (FYI, I do not only like roads, I also like orchards and alleys, for every tile I pave I plant three). I do not want the discussion to be shutdown, but I also don't like to annoy forum moderators who try to keep forums in order, I asked particular questions, and they were answered so this topic has been served. I do agree that some rules gives too much field for interpretation and this generates grey area that is a reason of conflicts. This is a sandbox game, terraforming and building are its greatest advantage, so they should always have priority in the rules, for those who prefer more virgin terrains is Xanadu, there are also many games that offer a lot more static environment, without all these pesky engineers bricking and paving everything. 🙂 

Edited by Platyna

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5 minutes ago, Platyna said:

terraforming and building are its greatest advantage

For some, and for others maybe absolutely not.

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Just my wee bit of input: we gotta remember this is just a game, if something ingame made us angry yesterday then today is a new day so yesterday is in the past, if we keep looking back at the past the only thing that's gonna happen is we'll be sitting with a huge amount of neck aches 😀

 

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1 hour ago, Platyna said:

Badvoc, please stop making any personal references to me, what I like or not like doesn't matter here (FYI, I do not only like roads, I also like orchards and alleys, for every tile I pave I plant three). I do not want the discussion to be shutdown, but I also don't like to annoy forum moderators who try to keep forums in order, I asked particular questions, and they were answered so this topic has been served. I do agree that some rules gives too much field for interpretation and this generates grey area that is a reason of conflicts. This is a sandbox game, terraforming and building are its greatest advantage, so they should always have priority in the rules, for those who prefer more virgin terrains is Xanadu, there are also many games that offer a lot more static environment, without all these pesky engineers bricking and paving everything. 🙂 

Its not a personal reference just an observations and from your other conversions that i drew the observation that you enjoy road building. No offence ment or should be taken, but again lets stay on topic.

 

The whole reason for posting here was to post a question which was linked to the post title and question  An official statement request about clarification of highway rules. 

 

I have asked for further clarification to the rules which your discussion brought up, I have found the replies and further insights of great use and of great value. Its also unfair to say "move servers if you don't like it"  why cant a person on say Release have a say in the kind of terraforming around his home even if it is a few tiles off deed? It seems the GM's agree and will look at each case when a problem arises. If its a sandbox game and using your logic we should be able to remove highways at will, but we cant with very good reason and why i asked my question, maybe a person spent months to make the area around some deeds look natural,  surely that's terraforming of a kind and should have just as much importance as road building or canal building or any of the other wonderful things I have seen in wurm.

 

You asked a question after mine which I am interested in seeing an official response but i have also found the response of the members also of great interest and of high value and why I think its unwise to just close this discussion down. 

Edited by Badvoc
spelling mistake

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On 7/15/2020 at 5:21 AM, Retrograde said:

 

The best advice I can give is if you are doing something that is off your deed, and others are upset by it, don't do it. 

 

 

 

Excellent advice ^_^

 

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My point is simple: if you have to rely on the letter of the rules to play nice with others, then you're missing the point.  Playing nice doesn't depend on specific rules, only very general, abstract ones, it's up to people to work together on the specifics, and each interaction will be different.

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14 hours ago, Wonka said:

if you have to rely on the letter of the rules to play nice with others, then you're missing the point. 

 

Unfortunately, sometimes it's worse than that.... sometimes people ask for clarifications on the specifics and minute details of a rule, so that they can justify doing something they *know* has some problematic element, be it social or technical. That's just acting in bad faith, even if your actions are technically within "the rules."

I'd honestly rather a person who would otherwise walk all over rules and local agreements, go ahead and ask for clarifications and ask for community input & discourse on the forums. Even if clarifying "the rules" is the only thing that ends up guiding that person to "play nice" - in the end, they are trying, at least.

 

I know that I've come to CA Help or the forums a couple to times to get a better understanding of rules and Wurmian norms & expectations - and I've been very grateful for all the diverse responses and discussions that helped me better understand the "lay of the land" so to speak. I've really appreciated all the different details and perspectives that people have contributed to this thread so far. It's a lot of great information to consider!

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