Darklords

PvP Discussion #2 - Steam Details

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Posted (edited)

its not great, but enough to farm blue mobs till 30 fs, then some red weaklings till 50. While you have noob no agrro buff, you can literally walk 1 tile away all red mobs and they dont agro you, so gives you ability to choose what to kill and move away. You also pick up where you hunt. You dont wander into the forest if your killing blue mobs, you walk the coatlines, as most of the horses, pigs, bulls, cows, sheep etc will be there.  You also heal very quickly with another newbie buff too.

Edited by Skatyna

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1 hour ago, Skatyna said:

its not great, but enough to farm blue mobs till 30 fs, then some red weaklings till 50. While you have noob no agrro buff, you can literally walk 1 tile away all red mobs and they dont agro you, so gives you ability to choose what to kill and move away. You also pick up where you hunt. You dont wander into the forest if your killing blue mobs, you walk the coatlines, as most of the horses, pigs, bulls, cows, sheep etc will be there.  You also heal very quickly with another newbie buff too.

Post a screenshot of /played and your skills.  Until then, I don't believe your claim.  I have been doing the exact same thing with a brand new char with prem doing a bunch of skillgain tests etc, and I flat-out don't believe you.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Skatyna said:

So.. all this thread is so much about what should and what shouldnt be in this new server to balance things etc. I did a small test. So it happened i needed an alt, so i made a new one. Premmed it straight away. It gets 24 hours newbie buffs. Now, i didnt gear that toon up with my main, nor it received any help from other characters. Purely noob toon play in experienced player hands. The outcome is simple - during 24hours of game play, that toon has 50 fighting skill, 60 chosen weapon skill, 35 chosen shield skill, 30 each normal/agrro stance skill, can ride a horse, has above 20.10 mind logic and can craft his own leather armour, shield and weapon up to 50QL gathering all materials himself. I specifically had that 24 hours play time frame as thats how long newbie buffs last giving you a nice buff to choose what to kill and how you farm without aggroing everything and dyeing multiple times. 

 

in comparison, on average it takes 2 weeks if not more for a fresh player to even ride a horse, way, way more to hit 50 fighting skill.. 

 

Now add the fact that experienced players make groups, where fighters dont craft/gather leaving dedicated crafters/gatherers to do that while they just grind fighting. Combine that and you will see that after just 2 days if not less you will see group of 70fs fighters in 70ql gear roaming around whacking newbies that are still "looking for iron to mine". Then add on top this, that the pvp server will be released 1 week later that most state "it does" not affect much lol. that means, those groups will be even able to start their pvp server career already having 70ql gear on them in the first 1-2 hours since server opens. 

 

How do you call this for a BALANCE? lol Do you really think it will make the difference where newbies spawn, how fast foal grow, what meditations allowed/disallowed and other crap? No, it WONT! 

Maybe you should stream or record all this next time then.

 

Or maybe post some screenshots of your skills and playtime on said character? 

Edited by atazs
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Posted (edited)
On 6/30/2020 at 4:32 PM, Darklords said:

 

  • The White and Black lights will be much harder to destroy.

Does this mean we're going to have a White and Black Light on the PvP server? I was a little unenthused when Retro said conversions were going to be handled by GMs.

Edited by Razorblade

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33 minutes ago, Razorblade said:

Does this mean we're going to have a White and Black Light on the PvP server? I was a little unenthused when Retro said conversions were going to be handled by GMs.

The GM converting thing, is for PVE. The White Light and Black Light are for PVP servers to handle the conversions there.

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1 minute ago, ausimus said:

The GM converting thing, is for PVE. The White Light and Black Light are for PVP servers to handle the conversions there.

Thanks! That's good to hear.

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@DarklordsAny plans to change the meta and bring back overground deeds? or is every deed gonna become a underground dwelling now?

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Zekezor said:

@DarklordsAny plans to change the meta and bring back overground deeds? or is every deed gonna become a underground dwelling now?


This.


Firstly.... I have NO issue with Underground building for PVE -- its adds variance.. and looks cool... but for PvP ... it simply adds hassle....
--

As it stands:   With underground PvP deeds, you can now dedicate 100% of your surface area to defence.  That means more dirt walls, spikes, More donut houses. more rings and layers of defence...than ever before....   You can basically build a blob of junk on the surface holding no loot whatsoever that will take 4-5 hours to get to the token.



Even if you make it through that  then you probably have to bash a couple of mine doors.... add another hour each... you will be lucky to have an HOUR to push underground... and that is likely taken up by bashing at 4-5 walls/gates on a ramp...  before wait... oops sorry.. the raiding 8 hour window is over... your times up.

Also Everything is rebuilt in about an hour....  

---

By rolling back to force all housing to be surface side, farming surface side, breeding surface side...  This means the new 150/60 slope.. at least provides opportunity to raid...  It means those who cluster and horde stuff, actually have to build a town... instead of simply knocking out a hole in the ground and throwing a few gates up.

As it stands now... the underground meta... You can build a practially impenatrable blocker or holding deed very very cheaply.
IDEALLY underground buildings should be back on the not allowed list for PvP servers, IF that is not a easy option, then at the very least

Simple Fixes:
Animal Breeding timer does NOT tick if the animal is underground.  Not a perfect solution but creates a lot of micromanagement hassle for those who try otherwise.
Crop Timer does not tick underground - period.

Force some activites back surface side...

Kare

Edited by Karellean
Typos n Stuff
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Karellean is really well spoken sometimes for a barely human savage upside down caveman.

 

Also, if the server has a cap of 800, what is the plan when we exceed this number? Can servers even handle 800? why did we pick this number? don't servers have a cap of 2000?

 

 

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Some very good points, we are willing to disable underground houses and fences to see how that goes. They can always be re enabled but can't really be taken away post people building them.

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7 hours ago, Karellean said:

it simply adds hassle


again. Please do not remove features that other people love just because someone doesn’t want the “hassle”. Underground housing and farming is a huge feature that -many- people love. By taking it out of PvP, you’re going to force a lot of players that wanted to be in PvP to move to the PvE server due to this. 

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+1 to Karellean. I would rather it be turned off to begin with and let's see what happens. 

I wonder if people who are all for underground building have spent hours bashing minedoor.. fence gate.. another minedoor.. fence gate.. etc. Not a fun time. Took forever without an underground aspect to raid a surface base back when I was active, I can only imagine the space-aids of having to do all that work above ground.. to start again below ground. It could very well take over the 8 hour raid timer.

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1 hour ago, WittleBunnBun said:


again. Please do not remove features that other people love just because someone doesn’t want the “hassle”. Underground housing and farming is a huge feature that -many- people love. By taking it out of PvP, you’re going to force a lot of players that wanted to be in PvP to move to the PvE server due to this. 


When I said "add hassle" I was simply being mild and kind in an intro...  

To be Clearer:   I genuinely do like the addition of the feature from a cosmetic and functional point of view for PvE --- but it is not suitable at present in conjunction with the other mechanics in place to a practical and thriving PvP environment.
If you go beyond the first line of the original post, I explain how the underground building feature clearly breaks the PvP experience for the greater majority at present.

No argument that some part-timers unable to build their nuclear proof bunkers may head to the PvE server.... but longer term that will be a far lesser loss, than losing what is realistically a last chance to consolidate a PvP community who will drift off after a few weeks, if the environment is allowed to remain static if the underground mechanic goes ahead. The moment the environment in a game becomes static, people can and will leave in droves.   

------------

@DarklordsThankyou for the consideration, and also exactly as you suggest, the fact that this cannot be effectively reversed, only increases the importance of considering this in the short time now before launch...

Id suggest contact the leaders of the 5-6 large pvp groups that I am aware of representing 30-50 people each
I would be surprised if more than one of them voted against removing underground buildings  -- For those with a genuine PvP full-time mindset this feature unfortunately does not work well with the overall current mechanics 

Disabling it, until there is a consensus that the PvP game is ready for it, would be in my view, sound foresight.
With other tweaks down the track over time... It may even be possible at some point to reduce that raid timer from 8 hours too...  removing underground buildings would be a HUGE step towards that,  as to be blunt... 8 hours is nowhere near enough for a properly set underground deed to be raided.
 

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Raid window + underground bunker bases? That's not an epic gaming move.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Darklords said:

Some very good points, we are willing to disable underground houses and fences to see how that goes. They can always be re enabled but can't really be taken away post people building them.

 

Disabling underground housing isn't going to change the deed meta, it will still be either a token pit or a token spike followed by walls or pits and people will still live in the cave, just out of a cart or wagon instead of a house or a bunch of individual safe mines. All disabling it will do is annoy people. I say leave it in tbh.

Edited by Threap
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18 minutes ago, Threap said:

 

Disabling underground housing isn't going to change the deed meta, it will still be either a token pit or a token spike followed by walls or pits and people will still live in the cave, just out of a cart or wagon instead of a house or a bunch of individual safe mines. All disabling it will do is annoy people. I say leave it in tbh.

 

A building though is an additional obstruction... The more obstructions there are, the harder it is to raid.... 
Underground building not only creates additional obsticles below the surface, it adds a greater density of obsticles above the surface (as the land area above is no longer needed for functional purposes)

There are already too many obstructions to the token,/reaching loot and your post quite effectively implies that... Given the first two points cannot effectively be argued against, they are factual... I find the majority of your posts supporting reasoning seems to be in conflict with itself....



 

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2 minutes ago, Karellean said:

 

A building though is an additional obstruction... The more obstructions there are, the harder it is to raid.... 
Underground building not only creates additional obsticles below the surface, it adds a greater density of obsticles above the surface (as the land area above is no longer needed for functional purposes)

There are already too many obstructions to the token,/reaching loot and your post quite effectively implies that... Given the first two points cannot effectively be argued against, they are factual... I find the majority of your posts supporting reasoning seems to be in conflict with itself....



 

 

You are saying disabling underground housing will force players to build above ground, while you might think that is what will occur in reality what will happen is people will give up the luxury of having a house and instead live out of a cart, wagon or each person will have a personal safe mine. The outside of the deed will remain virtually identical, still a dirt spike or a token pit in the center followed by high walls\long houses and trenches. The basic deed design will not change with the removal of underground housing which renders the change pointless.

 

Even before underground housing was added to the game the style of deed I mention was the "meta" for a strong defensive deed, "Nothing to sea here" or Momms as Tc called is a prime example of this design.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Disabling it altogether might be a bit harsh since some people enjoy the aesthetics of underground dwellings.

Adding a significant dmg boost to underground siege/bash dmg vs structures/walls and a nerf to on-deed minedoors is probably a better option.

That way people can build overground houses (and thus having to face ranged siege weapons as usual) or underground houses (where ranged siege weapons is less effective but battering rams / bashing is far easier)

Since its simply a modifier it can be altered over time based on feedback and no feature is lost. (code wise we already got something similar already implemented. the hate meditation path at lvl 7)

Edited by Zekezor
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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Zekezor said:

Disabling it altogether might be a bit harsh since some people enjoy the aesthetics of underground dwellings.

Adding a significant (aka massive) dmg boost to underground siege/bash dmg vs structures/walls and a nerf to on-deed minedoors is probably a better option.

That way people can build overground houses (and thus having to face ranged siege weapons as usual) or underground houses (where ranged siege weapons is less effective but battering rams / bashing is far easier)

Since its simply a modifier it can be altered over time based on feedback and no feature is lost. (code wise we already got something similar already implemented. the hate meditation path at lvl 7)

 

There is a decent bonus to rams when underground already, what i think it needs is a timer of some sort before the building can be repaired after taking damage. We saw this problem recently on a wurm unlimited server, we had a battering ram and basically couldn't outdamage someone repairing the building from the inside. adding a timer to repair will make the defenders  have to push the attackers off the ram to be able to repair.

Edited by Threap
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Karellean said:

If you go beyond the first line of the original post, I explain how the underground building feature clearly breaks the PvP experience for the greater majority at present.

No argument that some part-timers unable to build their nuclear proof bunkers may head to the PvE server.... but longer term that will be a far lesser loss, than losing what is realistically a last chance to consolidate a PvP community who will drift off after a few weeks,


This still sounds like you’re trying to force wurm into being something its not—an easy raising game. If you want an easy raising game go play Rust. 
 

 Underground building was a huge improvement to wurm game play. Taking it away will make a lot of players angry and leave for PvE or leave wurm all together because they love this aspect of living underground. You would be essentially forcing players to play a certain way which goes against the whole spirit of wurm. 
 

Instead of taking away the feature which adds to storage space and more player rooms, etc on a deed, nerf the OP aspects. The posts above already state how it’s already being nerfed. 

Edited by WittleBunnBun

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main problem with underground storage is how secure the entrance is, battering rams already do like 20 dmg/hit to houses, but you can use a steel mine door that needs an army to bash in under an hour then surround your safe mine in mining warnings that the enemy cant even disintegrate in due to side shafts/hitting rock layer due to mag mined trenches. as long as thats possible most will live underground because its infinitely safer than just a dirtwall with a longhouse

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Don't forget to bring back off deed mine hopping. Thanks

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6 minutes ago, AceRifle said:

Don't forget to bring back off deed mine hopping. Thanks

+1, cap the ql if you don't want them to be to strong

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Posted (edited)

I think that underground dwellings should still be allowed. Maybe after a deed has been drained, mine door damage can be increased significantly?

 

 

Is there a reason Player Made Kingdoms will not be available at launch?  @Darklords

Edited by Rudie

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