PvP Discussion #2 - Steam Details

[Darklords 2,238]

4 minutes ago, Karellean said:

Thanks for the Updates Darklords.

The extended raid timers is an improvement, and you have eliminated the war deed scenario.
It still does not address exploitation of raid timers for deeds placed in very tight clusters.

Im sure you are working through a lot of the feedback, and processing it takes some time.
I will be interested to see what comes from the SAFEZONE feedback, as that becoming a giant storage yard is almost a certainity without further review.

If the object is to genuinely progress players through their to PVP, I really can see no other way other than quaility limitations and damage to equipment over a QL cap... to avoid abuse and progress people to move out fro beyond the safety provided, once they reach a certain skill level.

 

Kare

Can consider forced gaps between deeds outside the safe zone,  but reinforced tunnels between them should be easy to deal with now that reinforcements off deed are easy to break.

[BrokenSanity 717]

10 minutes ago, Darklords said:

Raid Window/Mines

• Newly created deeds will be raidable for 48 hours when created outside of the safe zone. After this 48 hours normal raid windows will begin.

• Draining a deed will reset the cooldown for changing the drain window and cannot be changed with enemies on the deed.

• If a raid window is not set a deed will be raidable at all hours.

• Raid windows will have a set duration now

  • 8 hours outside safezone

  • 4 hours inside safezone

• Remember there are nerfs to how defendable you can make a deed now dirt walls cannot be nearly as tall and mines need 3 tiles between them. Also need to consider there is tower chaining now you cannot just build a deed directly next to someone you will need to chain towers and destroy the enemy towers to do this. Breaking reinforcements off deed will also be extremely easy now. With these changes I feel confident most of the concerns will be difficult to pull off.

• Walls and fences on the deed will be indestructible outside raid windows.

• War bonus will cap around 20% reduced damage and won't be anything too insane.

• Will look into having off deed mines stay locked but be extremely easy to bash.

 

It's good to see effort being put in to make raid windows work, but I still have concerns regarding the following:

•  2 deeds next to each other connected by a mine. Both with different raid windows. If you raid one, all items can be moved to the other, and it can be used as an impenetrable hop.
• Area denial in general will be incredibly easy. Being able to block land bridges with wooden shacks, etc. (Remember same Kingdom alts planting deeds to bypass tower chaining restrictions)

Are you still able to lockpick outside of the raid window? if so then that would slightly negate the area denial issue, whilst not causing any issues for larger deeds, I guess?

 

 

[Karellean 132]

10 minutes ago, BrokenSanity said:

 

It's good to see effort being put in to make raid windows work, but I still have concerns regarding the following:

•  2 deeds next to each other connected by a mine. Both with different raid windows. If you raid one, all items can be moved to the other, and it can be used as an impenetrable hop.
• Area denial in general will be incredibly easy. Being able to block land bridges with wooden shacks, etc. (Remember same Kingdom alts planting deeds to bypass tower chaining restrictions)

Are you still able to lockpick outside of the raid window? if so then that would slightly negate the area denial issue, whilst not causing any issues for larger deeds, I guess?

 

 

Whoa, Area Denial.... very very very good point... Compeltely overlooked that impact.

Those tiny blocker deeds at choke points that nobody actually lives at.   They are painful to deal with as it is, let alone on a raid timer....

Hmm Im thinking about possible solutions now...

Early thoughts: Possibly Only have Raid timers if a Village has X (5?) or more premium Citizens...    Would not affect genuine settlements that way, would deal with the storage and clustered deeds to an extent as well.
AND also set a rule that at least one premium Citizen must of logged in within the last  X (24?) hours... -- Again would not/should not affect genuine settlements.

 

Edited July 2, 2020 by Karellean

[BrokenSanity 717]

8 minutes ago, Darklords said:

Can consider forced gaps between deeds outside the safe zone,  but reinforced tunnels between them should be easy to deal with now that reinforcements off deed are easy to break.

 

This wouldn't prevent people from permanently keeping artifacts (for example) stored in a deed that always has a raid window active.

 

People could just ensure they move the artifacts (or whatever) via the mine system regardless of whether they're being raided or not.

 

 

But as mentioned in the above 2 posts, area denial is my primary concern at the moment.

Edited July 2, 2020 by BrokenSanity

[Darklords 2,238]

4 minutes ago, BrokenSanity said:

 

It's good to see effort being put in to make raid windows work, but I still have concerns regarding the following:

•  2 deeds next to each other connected by a mine. Both with different raid windows. If you raid one, all items can be moved to the other, and it can be used as an impenetrable hop.
• Area denial in general will be incredibly easy. Being able to block land bridges with wooden shacks, etc. (Remember same Kingdom alts planting deeds to bypass tower chaining restrictions)

Are you still able to lockpick outside of the raid window? if so then that would slightly negate the area denial issue, whilst not causing any issues for larger deeds, I guess?

 

 

Lock picking outside the window will still work.

Going to consider forced gaps between deeds, also reinforcements in perimeter and off deed will be super easy to break into.

Blocker deeds without defenses will still be drainable every day, we can consider the 5 drain disband also carrying over from elevation if this turns into a huge issue.

[BrokenSanity 717]

1 minute ago, Darklords said:

Going to consider forced gaps between deeds, also reinforcements in perimeter and off deed will be super easy to break into.

 

The off-deed reinforcements may be easy to break through, but the underground stone door blocking the passage to the loot will be under a raid window, and therefore impenetrable. 

[Darklords 2,238]

9 minutes ago, BrokenSanity said:

 

This wouldn't prevent people from permanently keeping artifacts (for example) stored in a deed that always has a raid window active.

 

People could just ensure they move the artifacts (or whatever) via the mine system regardless of whether they're being raided or not.

 

 

But as mentioned in the above 2 posts, area denial is my primary concern at the moment.

 

5 minutes ago, BrokenSanity said:

 

The off-deed reinforcements may be easy to break through, but the underground stone door blocking the passage to the loot will be under a raid window, and therefore impenetrable. 

 

Artifacts can also be contested at the altar they don't last very long these days without a recharge and have been contested many times there even when the recharges where farther apart.

 

Not sure I understand the second part if deeds need to be farther apart and the tunnels between them are easily broken into I don't see the issue? Break into the tunnel and get them if they try to use that.

[BrokenSanity 717]

6 minutes ago, Darklords said:

 

 

Artifacts can also be contested at the altar they don't last very long these days without a recharge and have been contested many times there even when the recharges where farther apart.

 

Not sure I understand the second part if deeds need to be farther apart and the tunnels between them are easily broken into I don't see the issue? Break into the tunnel and get them if they try to use that.

Essentially, no matter how weak reinforcements are, you won't have the time to dig down, open a mine, tunnel, mine through the reinforcements, etc, when the defenders can just have wagons ready to be moved in a minute. And once the wagon reaches the non-raid-window deed, the tunnel will be blocked by an impenetrable underground door.

 

And that's assuming you know where their mine system is.

Edited July 2, 2020 by BrokenSanity

[Votip 1,609]

13 hours ago, WittleBunnBun said:

So also, how are capitals defined? Does this mean where the king lives cant be in the safe zone or what does it mean by capitals cant be in the safe zone. 

 

 

 

capitol is capitol wtf

[hemrzz 1,278]

53 minutes ago, Karellean said:

Early thoughts: Possibly Only have Raid timers if a Village has X (5?) or more premium Citizens...    Would not affect genuine settlements that way, would deal with the storage and clustered deeds to an extent as well.
AND also set a rule that at least one premium Citizen must of logged in within the last  X (24?) hours... -- Again would not/should not affect genuine settlements.

 

 

@DarklordsTHIS IS GUD 

 

Would stop the spamming of blocker deeds too.

Edited July 2, 2020 by hemrzz

[Army 1,090]

Making a tunnel might work the first time, and thats good in my opinion. However, any decent raid leader should be able to deal with this easily.

Open a mine where you expect a tunnel, take a look through the wall and mine towards it. You can destroy it or even use it yourself then, to attack the deed from behind for example.

I honestly don't see a problem with this, as it only adds some depth to the game.

[Darklords 2,238]

17 minutes ago, hemrzz said:

 

@DarklordsTHIS IS GUD 

 

Would stop the spamming of blocker deeds too.

My issue with this is people could just use alliance or permissions to have little to no villagers in that deed to bypass this.

 

56 minutes ago, BrokenSanity said:

Essentially, no matter how weak reinforcements are, you won't have the time to dig down, open a mine, tunnel, mine through the reinforcements, etc, when the defenders can just have wagons ready to be moved in a minute. And once the wagon reaches the non-raid-window deed, the tunnel will be blocked by an impenetrable underground door.

 

And that's assuming you know where their mine system is.

 

17 minutes ago, Army said:

Making a tunnel might work the first time, and thats good in my opinion. However, any decent raid leader should be able to deal with this easily.

Open a mine where you expect a tunnel, take a look through the wall and mine towards it. You can destroy it or even use it yourself then, to attack the deed from behind for example.

I honestly don't see a problem with this, as it only adds some depth to the game.

As army pointed out this may be something people get tricked by on the first raid but breaking in and stopping it from happening again shouldn't be to difficult if it is we can look at ways to prevent it. We are going to look at making deeds have some decent distances between them outside the safe zones to help with this issue.

[Karellean 132]

7 minutes ago, Darklords said:

My issue with this is people could just use alliance or permissions to have little to no villagers in that deed to bypass this.

 

 

 

Not Clear exactly on what you mean by this,  but if a Deed needs 5 Premium Citizens in order for its Raid Windows Protection to Activate... that becomes an expensive process very quickly to maintain a deed for area denial purposes.   Also Forcing one of those 5  "likely" accounts to log in at least once every 24 hours is also a pain.

We are looking to STOP the proliferation of one person/area denial/storage deeds here.... the criteria above does that to an extent (albeit obviously pay2win players with decent bankrolls ---could- fund 5 accounts... it does become expensive for them to pull this blocker stunt more than once....

 

[Darklords 2,238]

35 minutes ago, Karellean said:

Not Clear exactly on what you mean by this,  but if a Deed needs 5 Premium Citizens in order for its Raid Windows Protection to Activate... that becomes an expensive process very quickly to maintain a deed for area denial purposes.   Also Forcing one of those 5  "likely" accounts to log in at least once every 24 hours is also a pain.

We are looking to STOP the proliferation of one person/area denial/storage deeds here.... the criteria above does that to an extent (albeit obviously pay2win players with decent bankrolls ---could- fund 5 accounts... it does become expensive for them to pull this blocker stunt more than once....

 

Ah I get what you mean now sorry that could be an options for sure, keep the feedback coming been really great so far from everyone.

[Monokles 352]

33 minutes ago, Darklords said:

As army pointed out this may be something people get tricked by on the first raid but breaking in and stopping it from happening again shouldn't be to difficult if it is we can look at ways to prevent it. We are going to look at making deeds have some decent distances between them outside the safe zones to help with this issue.

Thanks a lot for the great work you're putting in! I want to offer some feedback on the raid windows as they're something I'm rather concerned about.

 

Firstly, I feel like you're overestimating how fast a group can mine into a reinforced mine, even when you have exact knowledge of its location.

Let's say the two deeds are 50 tiles apart, then there is absolutely no way that raiders will not pop local at both deeds when they attempt to ride up to this connecting mine. Then they'll need to dig to rock and subsequently mine some tiles + smash a reinforced tile before they're in. In the meantime, all the defenders have to do is hop on a wagon with an alt and ride 50 tiles through a tunnel. Bonus points if it's 3 deeds connected in a triangle and you're gonna have to make a guess as to which tunnel is being used. And this is assuming that the wagon isn't already in an unraidable deed because the windows will tell defenders exactly where to keep their wagons safe.

 

Secondly, I think the raid windows you proposed are rather short.When we were raiding enemy capitals and other big deeds back in 2012 / 2013, raiding took well over 10 hours, even if we managed to catch a deed at a time when there were no defenders online. At the time, deeds could have high dirtwalls and so on, sure. But, getting in was rarely the biggest time sink. Even for those deeds with 800+ slope, what took the longest was going through the actual deed, breaking into houses we thought had valuable loot, breaking into the deed's vault (which was often strongwalled at the time of getting there). Moving the loot out of there and so on. Even when Epic was at its most active, proper raids were rare, in the order of 1-2 a year. They took weeks or sometimes months to prepare. I think 8 hours is really pushing it. It might be true that defenses cannot be as strong now, but I feel that that was rarely an issue.

 

Also, since you mention lock picking will be possible outside raid windows. How about draining?

 

19 minutes ago, Karellean said:

Not Clear exactly on what you mean by this,  but if a Deed needs 5 Premium Citizens in order for its Raid Windows Protection to Activate... that becomes an expensive process very quickly to maintain a deed for area denial purposes.   Also Forcing one of those 5  "likely" accounts to log in at least once every 24 hours is also a pain.

We are looking to STOP the proliferation of one person/area denial/storage deeds here.... the criteria above does that to an extent (albeit obviously pay2win players with decent bankrolls ---could- fund 5 accounts... it does become expensive for them to pull this blocker stunt more than once....

 

I don't think it's that hard to summon 5 characters in alliance willing to be in some random other deed for a bit. Just take 5 priest alts / batteries / storage alts and /vinvite them remotely, while they can physically remain in their original deeds. It's not a very steep requirement really.

[BrokenSanity 717]

A suggestion regarding raid windows that I haven't thought through very much, so feel free to shoot it down:

 

Perhaps have a deed's raid window length increase the further out from the starter deed it is?

 

So you could choose to deed near the relative safety of the starter deed zone, but you would be further away from the action. Or you could strategically place your deed further away from the starter deed (for example a war deed, or area denial deed), but that would be have a much larger raid window (or no window at all).

 

I don't think people are particularly upset when a war deed gets raided, as that's basically what they're there for.

Edited July 2, 2020 by BrokenSanity

[hemrzz 1,278]

2 hours ago, Monokles said:

 

 

I don't think it's that hard to summon 5 characters in alliance willing to be in some random other deed for a bit. Just take 5 priest alts / batteries / storage alts and /vinvite them remotely, while they can physically remain in their original deeds. It's not a very steep requirement really.

 

if a kingdom has 5 blocker deeds and want to have a raid window on all 5  people keeping 25 priests alts up becomes a pretty steep requirement not to mentioned the actual deeds ppl have to live in to also require 5 prem alts....

 

 

[BrokenSanity 717]

Another raid window concern:

 

The prospect of being on a deed when a raid window expires and a whole raid force becoming trapped there is worrying.

 

I can imagine the defending kingdom logging in alts with the sole purpose of building wooden fences to block deed exits. With the limited raid time already in place due to the window, you'll then also be wasting significant amounts of time chasing alts around, making sure they don't pop up a wooden fence.

 

Or perhaps "bait deeds", or deeds blocking natural bottlenecks, where they're easy to pass, but as soon as you do you get blocked in by an impenetrable wooden fence.

[Quicktor 1,346]

that's called using the games mechanics

 

let's be real here tho

you can't come up with a scenario that isn't "exploitable", you just need to be creative and can find solutions for any problem

 

don't overthink it, imo we have a good system on our hands

any more extension of the raid window and it's basically redundant

[Jaz 2,663]

I really like where the proposals are set at this point. There is no perfect system, raid window with the last iteration seems real good - attackers can also see the end of the window and save their ass.....ets. Social distancing or deeds and destroyable reinforcements should solve the windows-around-the-clock issues.

Graves are even better than Epic proximity.

 

[zentil 35]

If anything, Make a Screen and Sound that goes off for the 30 min,15 min, 10 min, 5 min, 1 min ect raid window closing,  Make the 5 min and 1 min Annoying as hell for enemies to not miss. While at same time, make sure the defenders only see it on screen, as a message. So that during a reg day if they are doing random stuff on deed so its not annoying the hell out of them.

Or add a beacon like effect coming off token that shoots into the sky in a deep foreboding red to signal to all attackers, gtfo now or you are dead if you get trapped when the timer for raid runs out.

 

hell make it so in the last 30 or 15 mins of the window, no walls on deed can go up.

 

[Karellean 132]

11 hours ago, Monokles said:

I don't think it's that hard to summon 5 characters in alliance willing to be in some random other deed for a bit. Just take 5 priest alts / batteries / storage alts and /vinvite them remotely, while they can physically remain in their original deeds. It's not a very steep requirement really.

Your abolutely right... its not that hard.... so you can have 1 blocker deed...    pay another 5 prems for the next one... you have two ?  .. Sure...    keep in mind most kingdoms and several players will have already used their ALT up for their "Safe Zone Storage Deed",  let alone any contributing to a wardeed, boat deed and whatver else the kingdom needs to place...  

If you need to MAINTAIN 5 premiums at all times, for that raid protection to fire off each day, your kingdom is going to get stretched pretty fast.   Its not that you cant have these blocker deeds, its at least that they dont enjoy the same raid protection of a deed actually being lived in... and nor should they..

Note on this too @Darklords -- If coding up the must have 5 active prems in the village to enable raid protection check,  be sure to add an exception clause for the Safe Zone,  new players paying their own deed there should not be hit with that requirement... they need the raid protection....
But then if as I also suggested those Safe Zones get a QL cap on goods and skillgain.. (to encourage them to progress out of the safe zone at some point) . then no-one will really want to raid them anyway... not worth the effort...

 

[WittleBunnBun 149]

On 7/2/2020 at 11:55 AM, SmeJack said:

Skipping foal stages completely seems reasonable to me, helps remove barriers to pvp but its not really my call idk someone else might think it makes it too easy or something silly like that

  

 

Ummm. Please no? Like that sounds awful. What about the people that enjoy playing with the babies before forcing them off to be sold/ridden 

 

EDIT: But seriously, there will be horse breeders pushing horses out a ton. Why nerf their usefulness by skipping foal stage. 

Edited July 3, 2020 by WittleBunnBun

[Quicktor 1,346]

cause pvp...

 

there is gonna be hundreds of horses laying dead on the floor the first couple of days

need to get backups quick, and fast ones aswell

 

either way, taking away the foal stage won't force every group to wait for their real commitment

it gives us breeder pairs early on, or earlier than normal rather

Edited July 3, 2020 by Quicktor

[SmeJack 5,796]

43 minutes ago, WittleBunnBun said:

  

 

Ummm. Please no? Like that sounds awful. What about the people that enjoy playing with the babies before forcing them off to be sold/ridden 

 

EDIT: But seriously, there will be horse breeders pushing horses out a ton. Why nerf their usefulness by skipping foal stage. 

 

Because this isn't pve this is war, if you want cute you might be in the wrong place