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Darklords

PvP Discussion #2 - Steam Details

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On 6/30/2020 at 10:32 PM, Darklords said:
  • No teleports like karma recall/farwalkers

  • Players will move between the new pvp and pve server much like how epic works with a portal on each side that is simple to craft. Most skills will cross, but some will not including faith/meditation and likely fighting skill.

 

These two points seem to contradict each other in my opinion. We agree teleportation is a bad idea on a PvP server, but people are still able to teleport from a deed on Freedom to a deed on PvP. I made a suggestion regarding this in the last thread:

 

Have all portals from the new PvE server lead to the starter deed portal on the PvP server, NOT to a player-made portal.

This helps to avoid the issue that you have with Epic portals, where upon raiding a deed, people are able to "teleport" from Freedom straight to the deed being raided. 

 

Alternatively, perhaps some check to ensure people can't cross onto a server if there are enemies in local range of the destination portal, or something similar.

 

Also, will there be 2 starter deeds for each kingdom - one in the safe zone and one on the main island? If there isn't, everyone starting in the safe zone doesn't sound very appealing, it might even force everyone to focus on shipbuilding before anything else (depending on distance between safe zone islands and mainland). 

Edited by BrokenSanity
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I don't believe they are contradictory at all, the servers are not connected in the way that you can sail and there is no pvp missed by catching people travelling to and from pve, so the way I see it is like an epic-freedom connection and I am not a fan of mechanics that punish people for picking one or the other. To say that people can "teleport" from pve straight to the deed would only be the case if you were able to sail, the likeness would only be able to be drawn if every time anyone logged out at all they were sent back to the spawn town. Since the two servers are not traditionally joined and no items swap its more like someone logged out to play some other game and then their mates alerted everyone in discord to log in.

To the alternate suggestion of blocking someone from logging in just because there is enemy in local - Who are the enemy to decide when someone can and cant use their premium account? I don't imagine that would equate to happy customers.

 

As far as skill transfers go I can understand the reason to prevent FS cross over (despite opening characteristic windows) and again just like epic/freedom, faith not swapping (to a degree), but anything beyond that goes back into the punishment of choice and the final nail that was in epics coffin. The more there is a loss from swapping over the more people will stop swapping, especially when the current player base are already being double dipped to participate in the new fun.

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How about obtaining pvp points for participating in each kill you get on an enemy. Then having a store to spend these points at.

I heard people talking about keeping certain items on death. This store can offer that and much more. 

For a certain amount of pvp points you could purchase a piece of armour or weapon (anything) that can not be improved, but can be repaired. It would be kept on death. (maybe tradeable)

You could even add penalties to these items such as no enchants and more!

I think the possibilities are endless if you just think that just about anything can be obtain from it. 

It also does not have to be pvp only points, you could add creatures to the list and somehow skilling actions. They would not give anywhere near the amount of points you would get for killing another player.

Example. Killing a Horse will get you 1 point while killing a Player will get you 100 points. Once you have enough points you could buy a 80QL armour piece (or anything else in the store) for 1500 points.

People spend 99% of their time on this game not pvping so these points should be obtained other ways. Its a total remake of the system but things in that store would give incentive to grind towards. 

Enchants, affinities, armour, weapon, tool, sleep powder, potions, spells, anything in the game. Maybe you could even sell bulk material at the token for this new pvp currency

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4 minutes ago, steamedlunch said:

How about obtaining pvp points for participating in each kill you get on an enemy. Then having a store to spend these points at.

I heard people talking about keeping certain items on death. This store can offer that and much more. 

For a certain amount of pvp points you could purchase a piece of armour or weapon (anything) that can not be improved, but can be repaired. It would be kept on death. (maybe tradeable)

You could even add penalties to these items such as no enchants and more!

I think the possibilities are endless if you just think that just about anything can be obtain from it. 

It also does not have to be pvp only points, you could add creatures to the list and somehow skilling actions. They would not give anywhere near the amount of points you would get for killing another player.

Example. Killing a Horse will get you 1 point while killing a Player will get you 100 points. Once you have enough points you could buy a 80QL armour piece (or anything else in the store) for 1500 points.

People spend 99% of their time on this game not pvping so these points should be obtained other ways. Its a total remake of the system but things in that store would give incentive to grind towards. 

Enchants, affinities, armour, weapon, tool, sleep powder, potions, spells, anything in the game. Maybe you could even sell bulk material at the token for this new pvp currency

 

sounds sick dude, except....it doesn't

it would mean that you at some point have a whole gearset you can't lose

apart from that, why would you get these "pvp points" for not actually pvp'ing lol

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everything looks great

 

P.S. to the people complaining about these "safe zones" and "raid times" these are the same people who have been consistently ran off of entire clusters due to constant pressure

 

its time for a shift to a more healthy environment, and I think you're hitting it on the head. there will be of course things that need nurturing as you go along, but it looks promising

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Raid windows have been asked for since somebody logged into eve online once time and said oh nice

 

Now they're here some are against it

 

Let's say I set my raid window to 10pm and 2 weeks later enemy come drain me at 1am 

 

Next day I wake up and set my window for 11am

 

Enemy turn up next day to get drain #2 at 1am again but then get told lol sorry, window is in 10 hours

 

There should be a hard lock to reset if a drain happens and the same 48 hour window between getting that advanced drain and moving the raid window

 

Also a drain should boost the window by 2 more hours, or however long you get on disintegration bonus to allow for phase two of a raid which is breaking into tunnels

 

Mine doors after this drain should become weaker too

 

This shouldn't be an issue if you've set your window to get maximum people on defence. 

 

Everybody knows a well populated deed will not be drained so it'll be interesting to see how you balance the damage and stuff for a window based raid. 

Edited by Mclavin

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Safe zones need to be intended for new players or those looking to setup. 

 

I hope we don't have too many resource deeds back on the safe island so I got a idea to fight it

 

 

Cap the ql you can get there and if any  raw Resources are brought back from Main Land they'll get the ql reduced to safe zone level over time. 

 

Bricks, mortar, clay, iron, things like this should be stored on main land. 

 

I don't really care for safe zones I think it'll help pve come over and with restrictions act like home servers without it being a home server and having everybody on the same map. 

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2 hours ago, Quicktor said:

 

sounds sick dude, except....it doesn't

it would mean that you at some point have a whole gearset you can't lose

apart from that, why would you get these "pvp points" for not actually pvp'ing lol

I was just going down someone elses rabbit hole. ...

This gear set you are stuck on.. It does not have to be top QL, but takes increased damage, cant enchant, not rare, cant improve, weighs more. Is there any reason to wear this armour when you can make higher QL enchanted, rare, and normal weight?

These "pvp points" dont have to be labeled pvp. I don't think the economy is doing to well nowadays. Those "silver coins" would have lower value to me than those hard earned "points" that a not tradable. They also don't have to be earned through non pvp activities. I simply just planted a seen for people to expand and think about not criticize and sweep under the rug as if taking my example was the final result. Iv only spent 5 minutes making that post, and it could be expanded for hours. While you read it for what it was and gave it negative reviews, Thumbs down for you...

 

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Mostly Good Changes.

 

However three items I see as significant issues where more work is needed, than simply dumping in the proposed setup.

1. Starter and Safe Zones -- Quality Level Caps for ORE/SKILLGAIN/ITEMS IN STORE required.    (Issue:  Storage Deeds)

Without any limitations put in place, these are destined to become storage/hoarding hot spots.  I have no issue with these being in place in principle, to attract and allow transition and adjustment to PvP life..... HOWEVER.... it needs to be exactly that... a TRANSITIONAL environment.   To put these in without any drawbacks of living or having a deed there, turns the whole area into basically a storage locker yard.    Doubling Expense and the suchlike is not the answer, that is down the ill-fated pay2win path, that the whole reset is trying to move away from.       

The solution has to be meaningful and impactful, directly addressing the problem.   I cant see anything short of hard coded Quality Level Caps countering the storage deed effect.  I would suggest a 50 QL maximum on any resources generated in the area.  NO Skillgain or Improvement beyond 50QL is possible whilst in this area,  and lastly and most importantly....  Damage to Items at a Significant Rate until they are reduced to a 50QL Equivilant.    The Starter Deed should be even Lower... with 30QL caps.

Quality Level Caps on Starter and SafeZone Deeds, will remove the risk of raiding these almost entirely, as (after the first few weeks) 50QL equipment is a waste of time raiding for.

The drawbacks I have suggested are sufficient for genuine starters and player wanting to transit to PVP... .and ensure they move THROUGH the Safezones... and not get stuck in one...



2.  Raid Windows - Highly Exploitable, Makes Raiding Redundant/Impossible
 

The introduction of this effectively stifles PvP and gameplay.    The proposed window is so short, that any half reasonable architect can design a deed that will take a least that long to get to the token, even if undefended, let alone break into any mines and actually loot items.   To break into a reasonably well crafted deed and get returns takes about 6-8 hours, given that actually looting any large  deed also takes 2 hours after that.   Anything short of an 8 hour raid window,  will put the majority of deeds in the untouchable bracket.

This is before even moving to the exploitable arrangements:

The Four Neighbours Arrangement:

Four Neighbouring deeds, so close that they are effectively one large deed, each have a different raid window -- Lets say 6 hour blocks because it is neat, and a linking set of tunnels underneath, which are well reinforced.  A dedicated wagon or two, with core loot can roll around every few hours, avoiding any exposure to being raided.  Shorter Raid Windows only mean this loot wagon only has to roll lest often..    And in order to expose this wagon of loot in this arrangement... even for the briefest of moments you would need at least 18 hour long raiding windows, at which point..... why bother....

You cant really lock this arrangement down.... Items need to be made accessible to owners at all time, they may need to defend with these.  You may have people from different timezones in one group (lucky you), each wanting their own place, living right next to each other in a cluster.  Don't say it hasn't happened, because that is exactly how my group have always setup....Adjacent to the capital, often tunnel linked with our own deed.

The War Deed from Hell Arrangement

Nothing more pleasant then seeing a 30x30 deed plonked right up in your territory, and you being able to do nothing about it for potentially 18 hours.
Whilst it is true that Rome wasn't built in a day (we never quite finished it), there was a fully functional war-deed on Epic... Build with the whole 300 slope walls, and a reinforced mine system from scratch in just 18 hours....   


And you may have a laugh at the way the next line is presented, but its "technically" true...
Raid Windows are racist.....   
The vast majority of deeds will inevitably their raid windows open at only Euro or US hours.... Australian/Pacific players will -effectively- not be able to participate in most raid activities due to the hour of the day. 

3.   PMK's and the Return of Infighting, Spy/Grief Alts and the complex permissions

The introduction of PMK's neatly solved a lot of the issues presented by Public Kingdoms.

Public Faction Infighting:

Takes just one unfortunate accident to end up with a numpty king, and an entire kingdom can be rendered dysfunctional pretty fast.
I recollect a couple of players getting run out of the game, as a result of that.
PMK's removed many public spats that reflected poorly on the game and its community.

"Grief" Alts  (Or I prefer "Dissatisfied Subjects"):

Few may remember the ongoing torment that can be inflicted by a just handful of very talented "grief-alts".   Personally I consider these fair game,  players are just RPG'ing rebellious, possibly patriotic individuals protesting against society,  has happened in the real world since the dawn of time.... Its a valid life choice if your not happy with authoritarion regimes....

Despite my acceptance of "Grief-Alts" though... the majority did not enjoy the experience, and PMK's effectively put a stop to the practise for the most part.

Complex Permisssions and Trust:

Setting permissions can be a pain at the best of times.... At least with PMK's you had the increased trust level, that didn't expose you to losses incurred by either forgetting or accedentally setting bad permisions.
You could take a more open stance, and open more of the buildings and kingdom up to more players, than is possible when in a public Kingdom.
PMK's reduced the risk of theft and damage, due to errors, and provide greater inclusiveness for its kingdom's subjects as a result of being a closed Kingdom/society.

-----

I want to be able to come back and enjoy the game, but I am not entirely sure that I will stick around, with the proposed raid Window and Safe Zone setup.....  I may possibly even get more satisfaction out of playing a "dissatisfied revolutionary," than playing for a kingdom with those restrictions in place.


Kare

Edited by Karellean
Typos n Stuff
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I love the new raid system, i personaly would like to go even furter on that.

So what if someone have a scaleset and store it on deed and not use it, he will be easier to kill and will gain nothing by having it, let ppl hog up and store if they feel that will benefit them.

Promote world pvp not raiding, good job!

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9 minutes ago, Tedzogh said:

I love the new raid system, i personaly would like to go even furter on that.

So what if someone have a scaleset and store it on deed and not use it, he will be easier to kill and will gain nothing by having it, let ppl hog up and store if they feel that will benefit them.

Promote world pvp not raiding, good job!

 

Why would you not just premote both?

 

Nothing on a PvP server should be safe, everything should have some form of risk to be stolen or destroyed etc. I think a lot of people defending the Raid System don't understand how abusable it is. I don't think the people apposing it are actually saying raid systems are a bad idea necessarily I think its more the current one suggested is not well thought out.

 

If you are backing the raid time's and don't understand how it can be abused then I suggest reading the entire thread.

 

+1 for Raid Time's but only if it is well thought out and not abusable (which it 100% will be)

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For those talking about PMKs

  • PMK not available till later into servers life

You can still have one just not right away. This is probably due to the 1st challenge server. A group decided to drop a pmk right At the start outside the Jk start deed grief/killing the server.

 

However with steam and hopefully a large influx of players not allowing pmks at the start could discourage groups of people. As long as you can't create a Pmk/have a pmk Village on any of the starter island I don't see an issue allowing pmks at the start.

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What you gonna do if enemy dump a deed in your territory which happens to be the only way out to get to world pvp @Tedzogh

 

You're not thinking it through because you've been hooked on no raids since pirates came to chaos

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This is a mix of responding to posts and revisions based on those same comments.

 

Raid Window/Mines

  • Newly created deeds will be raidable for 48 hours when created outside of the safe zone. After this 48 hours normal raid windows will begin.

  • Draining a deed will reset the cooldown for changing the drain window and cannot be changed with enemies on the deed.

  • If a raid window is not set a deed will be raidable at all hours.

  • Raid windows will have a set duration now

    • 8 hours outside safezone

    • 4 hours inside safezone

  • Remember there are nerfs to how defendable you can make a deed now dirt walls cannot be nearly as tall and mines need 3 tiles between them. Also need to consider there is tower chaining now you cannot just build a deed directly next to someone you will need to chain towers and destroy the enemy towers to do this. Breaking reinforcements off deed will also be extremely easy now. With these changes I feel confident most of the concerns will be difficult to pull off.

  • Walls and fences on the deed will be indestructible outside raid windows.

  • War bonus will cap around 20% reduced damage and won't be anything too insane.

  • Will look into having off deed mines stay locked but be extremely easy to bash.


 

Other  

  • Servers are planned to launch together.

  • Meditation will now cross over, paths and path levels will not but are capped at 9 as noted.

  • Tomes will not come from any source on this new server, but as noted some of the karma spells will be available to anyone with a staff and karma.

  • None of these changes are planned to cross over to existing pvp server unless there is support for it.

  • Horses can breed at younger ages now.

  • Can look at adding base DR similar to sotg to everyone as the server progresses if damage output is still too high.

  • PMKs will be enabled at some point just not on launch to give starter kingdoms time to expand and claim land. My best estimate is a month or two, we want to give base kingdoms time to make towers and claim land before unleashing PMKs.

  • Capitals for those who do not know are set by the king and do not need to be the deed they live in, the reduce the cost of upkeep on a deed by half.

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The new raid system is awesome & will be awesome for the game..

Having that small window of your choosing will be great for the game..

No more night raids while people asleep & so much damage being done during this time that it forces people out off the server and leave a bad taste for them about pvp….

Also with the off night raiding a lot of people lose what they worked hard for without even having a chance to defend because they had work to go too...

and this is why the game is dead today...

So if u guys really want to see the game take off do not change anything on the new raid system...

because if u do,

U just playing into the hands of what other groups want..

And not whats best for the game.....

 

Because since this game started people always looked to take advantage of offline raiding knowing people are asleep & that most have work when they wake up..

And tbh this is a really shitty tactic & very toxic for the game.

So to the people working hand on these updates stop giving into groups & grow a set of balls & do whats right for the game & not the groups wanting whats best for there egos..

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On ‎7‎/‎1‎/‎2020 at 12:10 PM, SmeJack said:

It may go without saying but just checking if early aging of horses is still increased so they don't take 2 weeks to be ridable, not just faster gestation times?

 

 

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1 minute ago, SmeJack said:

It may go without saying but just checking if early aging of horses is still increased so they don't take 2 weeks to be ridable, not just faster gestation times?

 

7 minutes ago, Darklords said:
  • Horses can breed at younger ages now.

Will that handle it ok?

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It not anything to do with breeding its being able to actually ride the horse, epic code makes the horses age faster than freedom so they pass foal ages faster, will this be on steam server too?

Edited by SmeJack
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1 minute ago, Darklords said:

 

 

Does that mean horses are ridable also at younger ages?

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Just now, SmeJack said:

It not anything to do with breeding its being able to actually ride the horse

Sorry misread getting tired, can make horses able to be ridden at earlier ages to seems like a fair change.

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would look pretty stupid to ride a tiny foal and already does look silly to ride a young horse, just looking for the faster foal stage

Edited by SmeJack
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Just now, SmeJack said:

would look pretty stupid to ride a tiny foal, just looking for the faster foal stage

Would making them born at a riding age help you can already ride tiny horses in a small age window? Would rather them just be able to be ridden from the start than having some time period to wait even an accelerated period.

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Thanks for the Updates Darklords.

The extended raid timers is an improvement, and you have eliminated the war deed scenario.
It still does not address exploitation of raid timers for deeds placed in very tight clusters.

Im sure you are working through a lot of the feedback, and processing it takes some time.
I will be interested to see what comes from the SAFEZONE feedback, as that becoming a giant storage yard is almost a certainity without further review.

If the object is to genuinely progress players through their to PVP, I really can see no other way other than quaility limitations and damage to equipment over a QL cap... to avoid abuse and progress people to move out fro beyond the safety provided, once they reach a certain skill level.

 

Kare

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Skipping foal stages completely seems reasonable to me, helps remove barriers to pvp but its not really my call idk someone else might think it makes it too easy or something silly like that

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2 minutes ago, SmeJack said:

Skipping foal stages completely seems reasonable to me, helps remove barriers to pvp but its not really my call idk someone else might think it makes it too easy or something silly like that

I think horses are important enough to make them easier to obtain there is some arbitrary barriers that serve no real purpose for how crucial horses are to pvp.

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