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Angelklaine

Are we plagued by a Wurm culture reset?

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https://massivelyop.com/2020/06/23/the-daily-grind-are-we-plagued-by-a-video-game-culture-reset/

 

I came across this article from massively op, and it got me thinking, are we at this point in Wurm Online? Will the Steam release result in making the same mistakes we made in the past, or is this a step that will change everything?

 

We've heard it before: The pvp rework, the player God changes, the hota changes, the re-release of Elevation, the release of Jackal, and now Steam. Are we rehashing previous attempts, or will this be truly new and will change the direction of Wurm? What have we learned?

 

I would love to hear your opinion on what you think will be the possible pitfalls of this new venture in Wurm. What will we get right and what will we get wrong? How do you think we should approach these pitfalls to avoid making the same mistakes of the past.

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What do you think a regular player can answer to that? this question to answer is purely for the dev team. We, end users, dont even know the plans of wurm in detail, the direction it wants to go "on paper", what is being done, what will be done etc. All we see and get is only "whats been done". 

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Just now, Skatyna said:

What do you think a regular player can answer to that? this question to answer is purely for the dev team. We, end users, dont even know the plans of wurm in detail, the direction it wants to go "on paper", what is being done, what will be done etc. All we see and get is only "whats been done". 

The direction they are going has already been released. We know clearly what is expected of Steam. What I am expecting is for people to speculate if this is a phenomenon happening to us in Wurm. Look at our history and see. The question is not just about the Steam release, its about our history overall.

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2 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

The direction they are going has already been released. We know clearly what is expected of Steam. What I am expecting is for people to speculate if this is a phenomenon happening to us in Wurm. Look at our history and see. The question is not just about the Steam release, its about our history overall.

 

the history is simple - we get promised "game changing" reworks and we dont get them as they get postponed due to something else "more important" or they are so rushed up, that it feels like they were only done to put a "check" mark on the list.. So thats the history part. Name it Epic rework, that is happening last 10 years, name jackal release etc. As for steam we only know the idea is to "get more ppl into the game". yet, we dont know how many, if any new players we will get. So far its only clear, that the majority of the players will go to "fresh lands". End of the day - that are still the same wurm people, so as a result the ranks between more servers will be even thinner. from a business point of view, this investment is descent, but once again the outcome is very uncertain. 

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This is an interesting subject. You mention reworks and game changes in your list of past events, but there is nothing there representative of such a direct call for new players and attention as joining Steam. There has been scant advertising or knowledge of Wurm prior to this Steam release, and this is different from simple game and mechanics changes. This is actually finally exposing the game to the masses. This new and long overdue move will let the world know about Wurm, then take on all the new players that will love it and otherwise would never have known of it. There will be haters too, but finally, exposure. This is far different form past moves imho.

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3 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

https://massivelyop.com/2020/06/23/the-daily-grind-are-we-plagued-by-a-video-game-culture-reset/

 

I came across this article from massively op, and it got me thinking, are we at this point in Wurm Online? Will the Steam release result in making the same mistakes we made in the past, or is this a step that will change everything?

 

We've heard it before: The pvp rework, the player God changes, the hota changes, the re-release of Elevation, the release of Jackal, and now Steam. Are we rehashing previous attempts, or will this be truly new and will change the direction of Wurm? What have we learned?

 

I would love to hear your opinion on what you think will be the possible pitfalls of this new venture in Wurm. What will we get right and what will we get wrong? How do you think we should approach these pitfalls to avoid making the same mistakes of the past.

@Angelklainewhat's your opinion about the mentioned topics?

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I have no real history here yet, but I think I can say that Wurm certainly HAS been plagued by reset.  Whether this is another reset, I don't know.

 

I think a key indicator to me in this regard is the fact that it seems there is "nothing new" ever able to be suggested in the Suggestions and Ideas.  I no longer have any illusions that anything I suggest will be genuinely new.  It seems that for every suggestion of an improvement or new item/object/mechanic there is a potential daisy chain of previous substantially identical suggestions back to at least 2012, and for some it seems back to 2006/7.

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53 minutes ago, Finnn said:

@Angelklainewhat's your opinion about the mentioned topics?

I dont have an opinion, which is why I am asking. I would like to see what other people think.

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43 minutes ago, TheTrickster said:

I have no real history here yet, but I think I can say that Wurm certainly HAS been plagued by reset.  Whether this is another reset, I don't know.

 

I think a key indicator to me in this regard is the fact that it seems there is "nothing new" ever able to be suggested in the Suggestions and Ideas.  I no longer have any illusions that anything I suggest will be genuinely new.  It seems that for every suggestion of an improvement or new item/object/mechanic there is a potential daisy chain of previous substantially identical suggestions back to at least 2012, and for some it seems back to 2006/7.

This is very interesting and a very good point. Someone I talked to very recently called the suggestions forum "the place where good ideas go to die". I do agree that the game needs new things, but I also contend that we need to fix our current systems before we add new ones. The team is small though and as such the development schedule is slow.

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Steam means 2 new servers, more exposure, possibly leasing to an influx of new players. That's it. What else are people expecting?

 

We've done this before. PC Gamer? 

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Unless the new servers have addressed most of the problems currently plaguing Wurm the majority of new players the Steam servers generate will do as so many new players have done before, they'll play for a week or a month or two then quit. Maybe a diehard or two will stick around but if history is any example it won't be many.

 

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10 minutes ago, Katrat said:

Unless the new servers have addressed most of the problems currently plaguing Wurm the majority of new players the Steam servers generate will do as so many new players have done before, they'll play for a week or a month or two then quit. Maybe a diehard or two will stick around but if history is any example it won't be many.

 

 

Maybe the new PvE server should be pre-emptively named "land of many small carts."

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8 hours ago, Katrat said:

Unless the new servers have addressed most of the problems currently plaguing Wurm the majority of new players the Steam servers generate will do as so many new players have done before, they'll play for a week or a month or two then quit. Maybe a diehard or two will stick around but if history is any example it won't be many.

 

A lot of "problems" Wurm has for new players, are the very core gaming systems that old time players stick around for. The speed, the fairly simple combat, the grind make it so anything you accomplish has meaning, rather than killing 10 bunnies to get a green sword. Lag is the only ongoing issue that plagues me, and hopefully the new host will help there. Wurm isn't for everyone, but making it for everyone would alienate everyone that has played for years.

 

I think Wurm culture is all about community. Players helping players. Villages, alliances, Impalongs, Rifts. Bringing people together. I don't think new servers will change that, I don't think it's been reset, I think it will sprout a new community.

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I think the only culture shift shouldbe on the dev part. And here i'm talking about updates that aren't really fixed over time, or perhaps take too long.

For example when Rifts where many players want the last wave removed. They take too long.

Player gods meta = took way too long to fix. Remember when everyone and their uncle was a sme priest? Removing player gods was a good move but it took way too long.

Missions were changed by difficulty meter but they weren't adapted to actual player population that DO missions. Again referencing Epic population where some missions require 30 players to donate 1 item to an avatar.

Each time you change a system or implement something you have to commit to it 100% to make sure the system works and fix it asap if something breaks you have to repair it before it creates too much discontent.

 

It just seems that a lot of systems seem partly finished and that mentality needs to shift if you really want to have success towards having success with the steam client.

A bit more hype also needs to be worked on when working on a system.

If the devs were to add something like mounted ballistae on ships with targeting reticles , a few hype videos would be awesome.

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What you call Wurm culture reset , in other games is called expansions ....

But for Wurm they just add new landmass for that new start feel , this is not the way to go ..

And that is were Wurm has issues , new landmass is not the answer , the game needs content of witch it is missing game play wise .

Rifts are a start so are the mini scout camps but they do not appear enough ..

 

Archaeology was a nice addition also but it borders on a skill grind but with some reward as items    statues, tool and other parts with stats ..

I always figured this game would have added Treasure Hunting since it has a good base start ( archaeology ) to it  use Ultima Onlines version for it ....

 

Same as for all that empty water , add random pirate ship or lost cargo you need find using map from a mob or fished up bottle ... MIB ..... map in a bottle ...

 

Wurm does have terraforming that makes up a good chunk of game play , and is part of the games appeal .

 

But in the long run just adding new islands to deed and build is not the answer ..

Maybe its time bean counters leave the game to players to design ...

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Does wurm suffer from this? HAH YES 

Im sure you can see me often hammering away with long responses criticizing decisions that get made and quite often say "maybe next time they wont do this again" and things like that its because in all the years a lot of us have played wurm we have suffered from the same type of mistakes time and time again from rushed releases to badly thought out patches(fat=cant hit/skinny=100% dodge chance anyone?) that are thrown in on a whim or based on 1-2 people's view of a mechanic
There is a reason why the last 3 years many people especially long time players started to be way more vocal then the years before and it isnt because the current dev team started to screw up more its that the same mistakes started to happen again in the past we got told "we will be more open and clear about certain things" for example pvp related changes and what not and it works for a bit and then its forgotten about again a few months later suddenly a random patch happens that just rubs people the wrong way.
Or a mechanic that doesnt need changing suddenly gets changed to something that is arguably worse then before or vague patch notes with the devs saying "no we wont be clear about this we want players to find out about this" when a week before they said "we will be more clear about the upcoming patch" 

This cycle has been a thing in wurm since its start it was the case when it was just rolf and notch working together(although notch was a lot better at catching mistakes and quickly fixing them and making sure they would not happen again even if it meant postponing features) and after notch left that oversight was gone for a while so it happened quite a bit but things werent as bad then the dev team grew and with more people it becomes easier to forget mistakes add in a lack of care and we have promises that are forgotten past mistakes that are repeated time and time again and over time that led to a more vocal community that we have now

So yes wurm really is plagued with this but id say in wurm its a 2-3 year cycle vs 5+ if not shorter on certain topics now this isnt to say that the devs are bad at their job its just that there is no person who is focused purely on making sure those mistakes dont happen again and makes sure that the quality of each patch is up to standard and that official responses are of a certain quality sure that role is filled but its filled by many vs 1 so its not as effective

But end of the day i just hope that some day the current team will sit down and make a list of things that go wrong instead of hide them under the rug and try to forget about them and then repeat them after all we have to learn from our history or we are doomed to repeat them again just look at certain countries around the world who are doing that exact same thing right now

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Banning RMT and character sales is a massive cultural shift in the game, and one that couldn't come soon enough. The game is changing from a large handful of recycled high-skilled characters being passed down from one owner to the next polluting the game and heavily shared 'village/community priests', to something where your own achievements are measurable against the achievements of the other people you're playing with.

Sure, veterans, particularly those with a strong and accurate understanding of the game (which is clearly not all veterans, evidenced by things like people who still somehow believe things like killing parents eliminates the inbreeding calculation for children) will have a big advantage, as will those able to play all day, or those able to spend large sums on silver in the cash shop. But at least you'll be competing against those players, and not a third or fifth generation of those players who are just building on the accounts of those who came before them. 

 

I for one am highly optimistic, not that the game itself will be radically different, but that regular players who want to play a game will be able to yield far greater satisfaction from wurm now, than in the past. When you start valuing your ingame assets in euros, it adds a lot of stress, and completely changes how you view the game. Whether people want to admit it or not, it makes you greedier, take the game too seriously, and not be willing to engage in trading that may benefit you, just because the values don't align perfectly since you're pricing everything off into RL currency. 

 

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I think Epic, Challenge and also to a certain degree, Jackal, are all kind of the same thing.

I hope the devs will learn their lesson and stop putting development effort into these types of "special" servers.

Imagine what we could have gotten on the regular servers instead.

The new mobs and mounts on Jackal could have been made for the base game instead of being dying code. 

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33 minutes ago, griper said:

The new mobs and mounts on Jackal could have been made for the base game instead of being dying code. 

This is a great point. Whats going to happen with all these mobs now that Jackal is dead and inaccessible?  I would guess it would be another six months to a year before another round of Jackal.

 

Which begs the question... What about Valrei mobs? Its been over a year since I've seen one. They are never on Chaos anymore snd are extremely rare on epic. Why are all these fun mobs gone from the game? With all the work put on the valrei mob AI recently, its sad to be unable to even find them anymore.

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Rhianna is needed if speculation is the topic

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I hope the bring Jackal back tbh, it was refreshingly fun, if only for a short period of time.

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To Eco and other games for now , so sort of lol @Angelklaine

Speculate that it will be a success - but only temporarily - they wont change enough of the pvp mechanics to make it sustainable for long - ok McLovin?  😜

Edited by Rhianna
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I do get the feeling that Wurm suffers from it on the PvP side (I don't PvP myself, so this is purely based on observation), especially Epic as it has issues and every now and then the devs seem to think that a reset will help, then they reset it and a not too much longer the same issues are back.

Jackel is also a good example, as they went from the temporary PvP Challenge server to a temporary PvE Jackal server. Instead of improving upon either of them both were shut down due to a lack of manpower, yet it doesn't seem like said lack of manpower was really considered an issue before they started working on Jackel. So that definitely sounds exactly like what the article describes.

 

Steam on the other hand doesn't sound like that issue. It's most comparable to just adding new servers, which have the issue of only being a temporary fix and diluting the player base. But I don't feel that it's a repeat of that mistake as Steam has the advantage of being able to reach a lot more people, which will then hopefully prevent a further dilution of the player base. Of course there is still the risk that they fall back into those old patterns, for example if the initial influx of players is so big that the devs feel that multiple new server are needed. If those players then don't stick around long enough then we'd end up where we are now, or worse, with a lot of very diluted servers. Time will tell.

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15 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

This is a great point. Whats going to happen with all these mobs now that Jackal is dead and inaccessible?  I would guess it would be another six months to a year before another round of Jackal.

Last i read jackal 2 would become a focus again after steam launch is done and all and what they are currently working on is all pushed out and working fine so  hopefully late this year maybe beginning next year might we get some news again about jackal round 2 next to that from what i know it was always their intention to do the rounds more often and faster but after the first round a lot of stuff was left rushed unfinished and buggy and adding in lack of content made a lot of people not like it so its understandable to go back a few steps and work on it better when they got more time to do things

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