Lockpicking on Freedom

[TheTrickster 2,284]

57 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

Because there are many instances in which this can be abused.

 

Really what other argument is needed?

2 hours ago, Badvoc said:

Thank you for the debate on this subject, its important to thrash out any new ideas with good and bad points instead of going +1 or -1 and if my tone come across as blunt its not meant that way at all.

 

It is encouraging to see people actually appreciate this - that we should propose all sorts of preposterous stuff and collectively see how easy or hard it is to tear apart.  Blunt is not an issue either, really.  Snide would be, but that is different.  

[Tpikol 1,057]

i wonder if any of you have actually tried to use lockpicks on freedom, because last time i checked, a long long time ago, you could lockpick off deed chests and gates. but it was against the rules if it turned out to not be abandoned.

 

EDIT: yes, most players back then also assumed it wasnt posible and never tried it.

Edited June 21, 2020 by Tpikol

[Ekcin 2,406]

52 minutes ago, Tpikol said:

i wonder if any of you have actually tried to use lockpicks on freedom, because last time i checked, a long long time ago, you could lockpick off deed chests and gates. but it was against the rules if it turned out to not be abandoned.

 

EDIT: yes, most players back then also assumed it wasnt posible and never tried it.

I have played with lockpicks on Freedom, still do it here and then, and love it. But I can only pick my own locks, of containers, carts, wagons, and ships, and those of villagers' carts I have management rights (did that on deed only, still to check whether it works everywhere. But mgmt rights include the right to change ownership so I assume so).

[Badvoc 204]

2 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

Because there are many instances in which this can be abused. Just as with the alts argument, what defines an inactive person? Also, how do you know that stuff has been abandoned? Some "ruins" are not obvious at all, and what you may think its a ruin might be someone's place.

 

I wont try to be naive. I get what you mean though, and in a way I agree. But the reason why I am so much against lockpicking on Freedom is because I am a Chaos player and I have seen the effects of people who want to use it to troll others. Enemy player shows up, picks your boat, then claims it and drops his 90+ql lock on it. Rip your boat. Now take that idea to freedom and consider the fact that player could remain active for years? Now we're back at square one, and all you achieved with allowing lockpicking on Freedom is for people to be able to loot stuff that they shouldn't otherwise loot.

 

This quote is a very grey area, because you can potentially still loose stuff with it deeded, just as you can secure stuff without a deed. I see no reason for that to change.

 

With the quality of locks most people use on freedom (freedomers have no need to level lockpicking or locksmithing in general) you can lockpick most locks with 15 lockpicking skill, so that's not a big grind. Plus you are forgetting the tons of Chaos accounts with high lockpicking. Guess who would get a kick out of enabling lockpicking on Freedom?

 

I have a PoP character that can make tiles for years. I have made 2 silver total out of all the lava tiles I've created. In contrast I have casted countless laval tiles for free for people. Ask @Ohana

 

Why? Who died and made you king? Why can't they secure the stuff they want to keep and come back to it later? Why do you get to decide what they should expect or not? What about the many Chaos players that don't have a deed on Freedom and need to take a break? Why isn't it okay for them to anchor some chests or bsbs/fsbs or make a 2x2 and stash stuff in it? Or in their boats? This is a presumtive statement.

 

Why? what do you mean greyed? So they cannot be used? What if I want to grind lockpicking on Freedom for when I go to chaos? Or what if I want to grind lockpicking so I can open small chests/empty bsbs/fsbs that have a lock on them? I've found many of these, picked them up, then lockpicked them to use later. In fact, I have one in my deed right now that I am working on lockpicking. It has its uses.

 

Not at all! Everyone that knows me knows that I love these debates. I'll shoot any idea full of holes so we can expose them and make them better!

Thank you for your reply

 

The trolling aspect is something I didn't think about and is the first reason why this might not be a good idea, I didn't think some players would replace the locks of abandoned stuff just to mess with people. Maybe after lockpicking an item there is a cool down before a new lock can be added when you didn't add the lock in the first place. How would there be other abuses? 

 

I wouldn't change the locks on doors / gates or boats/ wagons etc either, I was thinking more about padlocks. So stuff kept in boats / wagons would be fine.

 

If I leave a game I shouldn't expect everything to be as I left it, that's not fair on active players and the ability to go back and forth between chaos is a different kettle of fish, imo there shouldn't be the ability to transport items back and forth. In fact IMO I also wouldn't have skills transferable either, want to pvp level up and play pvp on that server. I know wurm is a different animal but pvp and freedom sould be completely separate, so balance can be brought to both types of play. I can see problems with this due to the low pop, but that's my view on that. 

 

I also understand about ruins or not, the places I am talking about are when you find a fsb in woods slowly decaying or an area I saw where all the buildings are gone, everything has been moved or looted and we have around 30-40 bsbs left, fsbs, and other misc rubbish which after 3 months is still all pretty much there, I managed to bash 3/4 of the low ql items when cleaning up and placed all the dropped rubbish I could in the trash. I have seen people seeing animals fenced off and a place look abandoned, they just bash down and take the cattle whats the difference between that and unlocking a bsb, the player not active has lost stuff / work either way and the BsB would at least have 3 months protection.

 

Is there anything in the rules that stops people bashing off deed walls to gain access for farms / cattle ? 

 

I also think one wall decay giving looting rights in a house is wrong, house should fully decay before people get the items or at least have 50% of the walls gone.

 

Really does need to be a way to clean up areas if not by lockpicking ( due to possible abuse ) but by some means 

 

 

[Idlamn 297]

3 hours ago, Badvoc said:

Is there anything in the rules that stops people bashing off deed walls to gain access for farms / cattle ? 

No. And honestly, it didn't even happen on my off-deed homestead on the epic server. I don't expect this to happen often.

 

4 hours ago, Badvoc said:

I also think one wall decay giving looting rights in a house is wrong, house should fully decay before people get the items or at least have 50% of the walls gone.

I'm not sure how allowing loot is calculated but I think the base level must have a certain wall damage average or something. I say this because we tried to loot a house with fallen walls on the base level but it still didn't allow us.

There is a similar situation with deeds - which I think is even more important than houses. The person maybe does not have a chance to log to pay upkeep - and bam - deed disbands, stuff outisde houses or in caves, horses are there for the taking. Also here players will assume the person no longer plays and loot the place immediately. I have no ideea how this could be solved to be honest.

 

4 hours ago, Badvoc said:

Really does need to be a way to clean up areas if not by lockpicking ( due to possible abuse ) but by some means 

Just tried erupt. You cannot erupt a tile under an item. So for planted items - though luck.

 

4 hours ago, Badvoc said:

The trolling aspect is something I didn't think about and is the first reason why this might not be a good idea, I didn't think some players would replace the locks of abandoned stuff just to mess with people. Maybe after lockpicking an item there is a cool down before a new lock can be added when you didn't add the lock in the first place. How would there be other abuses? 

How often does this really happen?

Those examples I saw were on the freedom pvp server.

On the PVE I think it was already established that the feature will imply the player being away for a large amount of time to be able to lockpick. So how are you trolling a player that hasn't logged for 3 months by replacing the lock?

 

Lava tile seems to be a wogical workaround, and I'd very much prefer straight forward lockpicking.

Like imagine a new player - he finds a locked chest in an abandoned place and wants to get to whats in it. Then, after checking the wiki, he discovers the beautiful world of lockpicking and locksmithing in WO. But then he gets this:

"Oh nooooo! We don't do things like that over here - here we create a tile of magma and push the item over it so that it burns with the rate of 1 damage per 15 minutes, giving us around 100 minus current damage times fifteen divided by 60 hours until the item is destroyed." Instant cancel sub and delete game.

The alternative would be a more consistent system, that is already implemented. With the addition of the check for x months offline, I would say you guarantee that lockpicking is only done on abandoned stuff.

[Badvoc 204]

11 minutes ago, Idlamn said:

 

 

How often does this really happen?

Those examples I saw were on the freedom pvp server.

On the PVE I think it was already established that the feature will imply the player being away for a large amount of time to be able to lockpick. So how are you trolling a player that hasn't logged for 3 months by replacing the lock?

 

I agree with most your points which is why I suggested we use lockpick in the first place, but after some feedback I can see they could be trolling. I don't like the idea of using Lava tiles at all.

 

Lets say person 1 wants to remove items close to there deed , loads of rubbish. This person doesn't have the skill yet to unlock these items but is working towards it, person 2 walks along and replaces the locks for spite.

 

Now person 1 cant replace the locks as person 2 is active.

 

this is the only example I can think of, just like sometimes people make shacks to stop people expanding.

 

The deed problem isn't a problem unless there's a client problem stopping someone from logging in, just make sure you have silver on your deed.

 

Interesting to know its not just one wall down on a building before you can loot.

 

 

[Rakki 429]

We need new things to spice it up so I say go for it. Lock picking should be part of pve as well!

[Angelklaine 4,266]

7 hours ago, Tpikol said:

i wonder if any of you have actually tried to use lockpicks on freedom, because last time i checked, a long long time ago, you could lockpick off deed chests and gates. but it was against the rules if it turned out to not be abandoned.

 

EDIT: yes, most players back then also assumed it wasnt posible and never tried it.

No, you can't. I have tried. You can only lockpick things on your inventory, or things you got manage permissions to.

[Tpikol 1,057]

good, just saying be sure you know how it works before you ask for changes.

[Angelklaine 4,266]

1 hour ago, Rakki said:

We need new things to spice it up so I say go for it. Lock picking should be part of pve as well!

LMAO mayhaps I know why you say such a thing >_>

 

You're obviously biased.

[Idlamn 297]

2 hours ago, Badvoc said:

Lets say person 1 wants to remove items close to there deed , loads of rubbish. This person doesn't have the skill yet to unlock these items but is working towards it, person 2 walks along and replaces the locks for spite.

 

Now person 1 cant replace the locks as person 2 is active.

 

this is the only example I can think of, just like sometimes people make shacks to stop people expanding.

I understand now. I don't know how often people do that in WO tho.

Also, you can do something similar right now, without lockpicking: simply drop a bunch of eyesore containers in front of someone's deed, plant them and lock them. Hope I'm not giving ideeas to any potential griefers :D.

 

2 hours ago, Badvoc said:

The deed problem isn't a problem unless there's a client problem stopping someone from logging in, just make sure you have silver on your deed.

I meant that the person cannot log for RL reasons, not enough time, exams, etc. I personally had periods where I'd log in like every 3-4 weeks. Sometimes I forgot deed upkeep and it went into less than a month state.

 

2 hours ago, Badvoc said:

Interesting to know its not just one wall down on a building before you can loot.

I am not sure how it works exactly.

[TheTrickster 2,284]

Isn't it funny that in games we use the term "griefers" when in real life we would just say "jerks"?

[Angelklaine 4,266]

18 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

Isn't it funny that in games we use the term "griefers" when in real life we would just say "jerks"?

Or bullies.

 

But the main issue is not griefing, the main issue is where does it stop? Its also the main reason I believe they wont allow lockpicking on Freedom ever. First you allow bulk containers to be lockpicked and the narrative will then be chests. Then it will be large storages, crate racks, wardrobes. Then someone will ask for automatic unplanting of items. Then finally all these ugly items will be gone from the ruins.

 

Then we will turn our eyes into the carts, wagons, transporters. Fences and gates will be next, and finally when the land is clear and pristine. we will turn our eyes at that ugly caravel that we cant move that is parked in our perimeters. Where does it end?

 

Keep in mind many of these things have already been asked for which is why I am against it. Because one day I will take a break, load up my caravel with all my valuables, park it in a corner away from any deeds, and let my stuff disband. Then I will come back 6 months later to a lockpicked and stolen caravel and valuables because some dude somewhere thought it a good idea to allow lockpicking on freedom for items not used / owner gone for 3 months or more. 

[Katrat 2,296]

There was a friend of mine who purposely built his house inside a mine and deeded it knowing he would be away for some time. He knew he would not be back on before the deed dropped but had hoped that the decay and loss of his hard work would be delayed by being in the mine. And it was, all was going well until the mine doors decayed and a looter/claim jumper decided to put his own doors up and loot and destroy all that my friend had built up. Including the locked house which they bashed down to get to the contents inside. The looter never deeded the area but cleaned it out and left. Some greed knows no bounds! This friend of mine who was always more than willing to help out any other player logged back on to find himself locked inside his now trashed and looted former mine with no house and all it's contents picked through. He said he knew this outcome was a possibility but I could tell this was heartbreaking for him. He had after all spent literally years building his underground home. He sadly informed me that he was done with Wurm and has not played since. This was 460 days ago. He was one of my favorite fellow players. Given my first hand experience with the greed of such looters even on PVE I must give the idea of lockpicking a resounding NO! -100

[Finnn 3,303]

2 hours ago, Katrat said:

There was a friend of mine who purposely built his house inside a mine and deeded it knowing he would be away for some time. He knew he would not be back on before the deed dropped but had hoped that the decay and loss of his hard work would be delayed by being in the mine. And it was, all was going well until the mine doors decayed and a looter/claim jumper decided to put his own doors up and loot and destroy all that my friend had built up. Including the locked house which they bashed down to get to the contents inside. The looter never deeded the area but cleaned it out and left. Some greed knows no bounds! This friend of mine who was always more than willing to help out any other player logged back on to find himself locked inside his now trashed and looted former mine with no house and all it's contents picked through. He said he knew this outcome was a possibility but I could tell this was heartbreaking for him. He had after all spent literally years building his underground home. He sadly informed me that he was done with Wurm and has not played since. This was 460 days ago. He was one of my favorite fellow players. Given my first hand experience with the greed of such looters even on PVE I must give the idea of lockpicking a resounding NO! -100

wrong about 1 bit.. you can not bash offdeed houses, you can trash any fencing which is not part of construction/wall, fences and gates have permission system but aren't actual building; your friend's house had a decayed wall most likely

 

lockpicking on pve is fine as is.. allowing a few more free will will just bring back shenanigans like deeding over or picking up locked items and having a go at lootboxes for free.. lets not, pay up for a few loyalty system giftwraps and enjoy your rng if you must.

[Katrat 2,296]

21 minutes ago, Finnn said:

wrong about 1 bit.. you can not bash offdeed houses, you can trash any fencing which is not part of construction/wall, fences and gates have permission system but aren't actual building; your friend's house had a decayed wall most likely

All I know is that he had a house before his mine was high jacked but didn't when he logged back on.

[elentari 2,660]

The only situation I can imagine where a player can bash another player's house (which is illegal on freedom) is if you somehow lure a unique near said house and wait for it to bash 1 wall. Uniques are happy bashing bastards and many a time I've had deed walls bashed due to a kyklops or a wandering dragon. ]

 

Other than that I'm sad about the story.

 

Lockpicking on freedom should be dissallowed but allowed only under certain strict conditions.

 

Some time ago I made a suggestion about marking things for "vacation mode" :

 Essentially you're taking a small break so you should be allowed to mark your deed/house/cart/ship/whatever for slow decay & protection from lockpicking. I don't really see why we don't have this option since how many of us have taken long breaks from wurm? 80%? 75%? 99%?

 

Each time we log on after a long break it's a dice toss. 

This conversation has been made hundreds of times by now. The common ground would be to offer players an option to go into vacation mode so their stuff is protected.

The other side is having locks drop off items if a player quits the game for a long period of time beyond vacation mode if some conditions are met: items are off deed/in no house. Items haven't been interacted with by the owner/any who can manage perms. Interaction definiton: open, manage, repair, move, place, destroy, improve, change lock, etc.

 

I would be for lockpicking under certain conditions. Sometimes people just drop random gates in impassable areas thus blocking the only path possible through a mountain. Decayed deeds sometimes contain high ql empty wagons/carts/ship transporters/ boats that will never decay. By never = 5-6 years of decay, which in gaming terms is a lot.

 

Under Angel's argument, he could mark his caravel for "vacation mode" its decay would be slower and once he comes back, all his stuff is there.

I can tell you that on Epic , deeds that disbanded often got cleaned out in less than 2 days. And by cleaned out I mean all locks removed,  walls bashed, etc.

Edited June 23, 2020 by elentari

[Ekcin 2,406]

3 hours ago, Katrat said:

All I know is that he had a house before his mine was high jacked but didn't when he logged back on.

Houses decay very fast once the owner is logged off server (even on another server) for more than 3 months. Decay may then go up to 30dmg/day in perimeter, and 5-10dmg/day in the wild. Before, damage starts by .01/day, and does not exceed 0.3/day even after months, at least for stone buildings of some quality.

 

So if your friend was not on for about half a year, the house was certainly gone. Btw., off deed mine doors decay as well, so not clear whether somebody has bashed.

 

But to the topic, I fully agree. Lockpicking is great as it is on Freedom, and should stay exactly so.  There are enough possibilities to deal with stuff hanging around, and lava is quite useful, especially if contents is to be expected inside the container. Lava gradually destroys the container, but the contents does not take damage before it is gone. So lava is a valid option, and I somewhat frown upon those too greedy for extra skillgain so not choosing PoP,  but ranting about (get me right, every path is a valid choice, but so is PoP).

Edited June 23, 2020 by Ekcin

[Katrat 2,296]

14 hours ago, Ekcin said:

So if your friend was not on for about half a year, the house was certainly gone. Btw., off deed mine doors decay as well, so not clear whether somebody has bashed.

I never said his mine doors were bashed I specified that they decayed! I knew they were taking damage and would have repaired them if I had the perms! I did have perms to enter his mine though and all was intact just days before it was stolen and it was not half a year before he returned to find it all gone! Given that observation I simply assumed the house was bashed since it was gone so quickly.  Excuse me for not realizing the rules on bashing off deed buildings as I am not the type to try and do such a thing! That was my error but it still does not change the fact that he was cleaned out by a greedy looter! Yet again a simple point I was trying to make has been derailed by nitpicking so let me put this very plainly for those who seem to get lost in anything but a simple statement. Lockpicking on PVE is a bad idea!

[TheTrickster 2,284]

31 minutes ago, Katrat said:

I never said his mine doors were bashed I specified that they decayed! I knew they were taking damage and would have repaired them if I had the perms! I did have perms to enter his mine though and all was intact just days before it was stolen and it was not half a year before he returned to find it all gone! Given that observation I simply assumed the house was bashed since it was gone so quickly.  Excuse me for not realizing the rules on bashing off deed buildings as I am not the type to try and do such a thing! That was my error but it still does not change the fact that he was cleaned out by a greedy looter! Yet again a simple point I was trying to make has been derailed by nitpicking so let me put this very plainly for those who seem to get lost in anything but a simple statement. Lockpicking on PVE is a bad idea!

 

To be fair, while I can see how upsetting this would be, if the mine doors and the house had decayed the looter may well not have been "greedy" but just going about a common activity in Wurm, looting abandoned stuff, as it surely would have looked abandoned to them.  I genuinely don't know if lockpicking would have made a difference.  

 

It gets down to the vexed question of how to balance allowing legitimate activity and disallowing the illegitimate.  Given the available protections via deeding, locking, permissions etc, disallowing lockpicking SHOULD prevent people losing their stuff, but there will always be some scope for working around.  As goes the old saying "a lock only keeps out an honest person."  I have seen "don't repair" signs on stuff people want gone, maybe if we know someone has left stuff that they want to come back to we can put "Reserved for Xyz - coming to collect" or something.  At least the "genuine" scavengers will leave it alone - well I know I would, and hope others would, too.

 

It would be really great if we could access in-game accounts for management in the Wurm store or something.  Someone must be away from play for a while for whatever reason could still do simple things like grants permissions, pay deed upkeep, etc. to keep their stuff out of nefarious clutches.

[Katrat 2,296]

40 minutes ago, TheTrickster said:

To be fair, while I can see how upsetting this would be, if the mine doors and the house had decayed the looter may well not have been "greedy" but just going about a common activity in Wurm, looting abandoned stuff, as it surely would have looked abandoned to them.  I genuinely don't know if lockpicking would have made a difference. 

I get what you are saying about the look of abandonment and you are right in that regard but that did not stop a looter from robbing another friend of mine who was actively playing at the time. He filled a bsb with mortar and left it next to his undeeded dwelling for the night only to find the bsb emptied the next day. After this he did start putting locks on his stuff to protect it. However when it was robbed it was as I said right next to his dwelling that was obviously not abandoned! Lockpicking would most certainly make a difference in a case where they are willing to steal from active players! There are more accounts of this type of thing. The first player I mentioned with the mine dwelling once lost a bsb full of high ql cotton to a looter from a bsb that was next to his stables while he was logged for the night. Again it was not abandoned and the player was active. Which I believe was one of the reasons this player chose to build his home in a lockable mine in the first place.

[Anarres 246]

On 6/21/2020 at 2:10 PM, Ekcin said:

I have played with lockpicks on Freedom, still do it here and then, and love it. But I can only pick my own locks, of containers, carts, wagons, and ships, and those of villagers' carts I have management rights (did that on deed only, still to check whether it works everywhere. But mgmt rights include the right to change ownership so I assume so).

No, it doesn't. Can you check and give an example of management permissions on an item that would seem to include the right to change ownership?

Edited June 24, 2020 by Anarres

[zethreal 582]

On 6/19/2020 at 9:54 AM, Badvoc said:

Its not so much wanting peoples stuff but the option to get rid of the ton of rubbish out there. is there really anything of value in these 100's of bsbs and fsbs 

 

I've been told bashing is perfectly fine if off-deed and "obviously abandoned". Bashing a bsb / fsb will get rid of it. Lockpicking it will only grant you access to its contents.

[Ekcin 2,406]

18 hours ago, Katrat said:

..Excuse me for not realizing the rules on bashing off deed buildings as I am not the type to try and do such a thing! That was my error but it still does not change the fact that he was cleaned out by a greedy looter! Yet again a simple point I was trying to make has been derailed by nitpicking so let me put this very plainly for those who seem to get lost in anything but a simple statement. Lockpicking on PVE is a bad idea!

Katrat, this remark was not meant to scold or criticize you. As said, I agree than lockpicking (other than the own stuff) on PvE is indeed a bad idea.

 

The reason I (and as I assume, Finn too) "nitpicked" here just was that the wrong impression you got might spread to others who may assume their houses in the wild may be bashed. That might raise fears and possibly trigger unnecessary or wrongful activities. We all here strive for as accurate as possible information (and sometimes fail), right because WO is a complex game and nobody is at fault not knowing everything or wrongly understanding something. But it is good when mistaken views are corrected.

[Katrat 2,296]

53 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

The reason I (and as I assume, Finn too) "nitpicked" here just was that the wrong impression you got might spread to others who may assume their houses in the wild may be bashed. That might raise fears and possibly trigger unnecessary or wrongful activities. We all here strive for as accurate as possible information (and sometimes fail), right because WO is a complex game and nobody is at fault not knowing everything or wrongly understanding something. But it is good when mistaken views are corrected.

Thank you for clarifying this Ekcin and I agree with what you are saying about misinformation. And yes Wurm is very complex and is very confusing as to what can and cannot be done and where. The rules are often not very clear. Let me clarify that my former comment of nitpicking was aimed more at the critic of my original comment who started there objection with the word "Wrong". Its kind of hard not take such wording as personal after just having poured your heart out. Perhaps I am to sensitive for Wurm.