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Arindor

Dangerous side-shaft message when joining same height tunnels.

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Consider the following - a downhill tunnel created with the standard "Mine Down" command, and all slopes adjusted (from random) to exactly 20 slope:

 

X X

X X

X X

X X

X X

 

where X is a wall tile, and blank is our tunnel.  Now a cave collapse occurs at V.  But V is a metal vein that will take forever to mine through:

 

X X

X X

XVX

X X

X X

 

so instead of mining through the vein, we would like to mine around the vein (tiles 1, 2, and 3), as follows:

 

X X

X 1X

XV2X

X 3X

X X

 

as long as we keep the slope of 1, 2, and 3 the same, everything should work out right? It doesn't.  Some years ago, this used to work, but no longer does.

 

Tile 1, is a bit tricky.  You can either mine up from the tunnel and then mine the floor to make sure you have exactly a 20 slope that matches the tunnel tile alongside it.  Or you could mine forward from the tunnel and then just lower the one corner to make sure the lower edge of the tile matches the tunnel alongside it.  In that case, the far edge will only end up being a 10 slope though.  Either way, the tunnel is now correctly positioned to mine tile 2.

 

The problem is that when you try to mine down into tile 2, and as the tile is about to collapse, you get the message:  "The cave walls sound hollow.  A dangerous side shaft could emerge.".  This message is in error and should not happen when tunnels meet at the proper height.  I know the workaround - mine an extra tile over and mine an extra tile back.  I think this workaround works, but this should not be required.  And if you have a vein there, or reinforced wall, you're out of luck.

 

Here is another, simple example:

 

X       X

X   V   X

X   1V  X

X       X

X                  X

 

Everything in the above is perfectly flat.  If you try to mine away tile 1, (I believe) you get the same message (will confirm).

 

If a mining operation causes two "tunnels" to meet, at the correct height (within some tolerance for the random up/down which sometimes occur from the selected direction), then we should not be getting a "dangerous side shaft" message.  I know that this was added some time ago to prevent from mining into a tunnel way above/below an existing tunnel, to prevent a dropshaft from happening.  But getting this mesage at the correct height is a bug and needs to be fixed.

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I am not sure whether I understood you right. But "dangerous side shaft" is not about height. Any height, even dropshafts (after a warning which can be ignored and overridden) will adapt at the corners.

 

"Dangerous side shaft" is about diagonals. This often results in that you can mine out such a tile from one side but not from the other. In other cases it needs to collapse the neighbouring tile forming the diagonal gap, then mine out the tile previously warned about, then the collapsed tile.

 

https://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/Mining_warnings

 

@ team: please look into this and possibly move to CA chat in case you agree that this is not a bug. 

Edited by Ekcin
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Lets call the open tile before 3, on the same row with 3, "Z". So the row is XZ3X. If you mine 1, then want to mine 2, then Z and 2 would be openings that only touch in one corner, on diagonal. That is not supported by wurm. What you can do alternatively, is to mine 1, then 3, then 2.

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On 5/31/2020 at 2:40 AM, Ekcin said:

I am not sure whether I understood you right. But "dangerous side shaft" is not about height. Any height, even dropshafts (after a warning which can be ignored and overridden) will adapt at the corners.

 

"Dangerous side shaft" is about diagonals. This often results in that you can mine out such a tile from one side but not from the other. In other cases it needs to collapse the neighbouring tile forming the diagonal gap, then mine out the tile previously warned about, then the collapsed tile.

 

https://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/Mining_warnings

 

@ team: please look into this and possibly move to CA chat in case you agree that this is not a bug. 

 

My report is not about whether or not I matched up or understood a warning message properly.  My report is about what should work (and used to work) in Wurm.  The only time "a dangerous side-shaft" occurs (or occurred) was when the height was vastly different.  Both examples I showed *should work* in Wurm, but do not.  My point about height is that developers can "match" the height of the mining operations to see if it should work, or generate the message instead.  My belief is that developers blanket removed the ability for diagonal tunnels to meet, and the code should instead use a height check that allows the operation to work as long as the height "matches".  Even if you don't understand or agree with my first example, how can anybody look at the second example and say you should not be able to mine that tile?  This is a bug.

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3 hours ago, Anarres said:

Lets call the open tile before 3, on the same row with 3, "Z". So the row is XZ3X. If you mine 1, then want to mine 2, then Z and 2 would be openings that only touch in one corner, on diagonal. That is not supported by wurm. What you can do alternatively, is to mine 1, then 3, then 2.

 

To simplify, in my first example, you're just saying mine 1 first, then mine 3, and then mine 2.  I get it, and thanks for the workaround for that scenario.  Unfortunately, this does not help in a blocked tunnel though, unless you have miners on both sides.  Also, doesn't help in my second example at all.

 

But again, thanks for the workaround for that scenario.  Might be useful for some.

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In the second example you can do a similar thing, you have to remove one of the V tiles first, then you can remove tile 1. Any of the V should do.

 

It's like that old game with X and O, say you want:

XO

OX

where X is a closed tile, O is an open tile. Such "diagonal of empty" is not supported in wurm, and always when you try to mine out the second O we'll get a message about "side shaft". If you need both O opened, you have to open an X first.

 

Note: the message sounds like it's talking about dangerous shafts, but don't read it that way, it's talking about side things, diagonal things, it can't do. It can't make two caves meet only in one corner, diagonally adjacent.

Edited by Anarres
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nevermind

 

Edited by atazs

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On 6/1/2020 at 1:27 PM, Anarres said:

In the second example you can do a similar thing, you have to remove one of the V tiles first, then you can remove tile 1. Any of the V should do.

 

Right.  This can work, but when you have two high-quality veins at V that you do not want to destroy, and want to remove the tile at "1" so you can build a house or tunnel, this suggestion is not useful.  This is my situation.
 

Quote

 

It's like that old game with X and O, say you want:

XO

OX

where X is a closed tile, O is an open tile. Such "diagonal of empty" is not supported in wurm, and always when you try to mine out the second O we'll get a message about "side shaft". If you need both O opened, you have to open an X first.

 

 

I understand this is your (and other's) assertion.  But you are, simply, wrong.  There is nothing inherently "broken" in the Wurm engine such that diagonal "voids" cannot exist.  They do all the time, and the Wurm engine handles this well, and always has to my knowledge.  Again, mining like this was allowed, and USED TO HAPPEN.  You can go looking around old mines and see examples of this, like I just did.  Also, nothing prevents you from building a house diagonal from a vein (Note: You can only build adjacent to cave wall *on deed*).  And finally, you could use Shaker Orb or Strongwall diagonal from an existing vein or cave wall, if you like.  All of these things can happen, do happen, and do not cause any problem whatsoever for the Wurm engine.

 

Quote

Note: the message sounds like it's talking about dangerous shafts, but don't read it that way, it's talking about side things, diagonal things, it can't do. It can't make two caves meet only in one corner, diagonally adjacent.

 

This is also wrong.  The dangerous side-shaft message is *intended* to warn about vastly different heights between tunnels.  There is nothing dangerous about two cave tiles (voids) meeting diagonally at the same height, which is why the message is inappropriate and this is a bug.

 

If you free your thought from the incorrect assertion that diagonal "voids" can't exist in Wurm, then you realize that not allowing mining, such as the examples I have given, is a bug.  And sorry to provide the "history lesson", but this is something that *used to* work in Wurm.  In Wurm many years ago, you used to be able to mine into any adjacent tunnel at any height, in addition to mining diagonal to an existing void.  The Wurm engine also handled these situations well, but mining into adjacent tunnels at vastly different heights caused many issues and resulted in many /support complants from users.    They were "dangerous" because you could fall down one and become injured.  My assertion is the ability to mine diagonally at similar heights was "broken" many years ago by the mining changes that were implemented to prevent these "side shafts" of vastly different heights.  The warning message is correct and applicable if the heights of the tunnel are vastly different.  My report is that the warning message is incorrect and not applicable where the tunnel heights are similar - such as the two real-world examples I tried to provide above.  Fixing this bug should be a simple change: a simple height comparison - just make sure the "diagonal" tunnel heights are vastly different when reporting this message and preventing mining; otherwise allow the mining to proceed.

 

Sorry to report this bug after *years* of people assuming this is the way mining is intended to work.  I played many years ago, and returned about two years ago and so I am just reporting this bug now that it has sufficiently annoyed me.

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I have played since Deliverance. As long as I have played you have never been able to mine a diagonal like you are reporting you could. 

So if you used to be able to, it was a long time ago.

The Mining warning section was added in 2013 and it had the error message for this then.

https://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php?title=Mining_warnings&type=revision&diff=113471&oldid=77762

So if it was possible before it no longer is.

I would suggest a post in the suggestion area. I would love to see this limitation removed.

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4 hours ago, Ohana said:

I have played since Deliverance. As long as I have played you have never been able to mine a diagonal like you are reporting you could. 

So if you used to be able to, it was a long time ago.

 

 

2011-2012  Started on Indy and then Exodus when it first opened.
 

Quote

The Mining warning section was added in 2013 and it had the error message for this then.

 

That would be when it broke.  I was not playing then to report it then.  Sorry.
 

Quote

 

* sigh *

I guess I've not clearly stated enough times that I know it's not working now, and that I know this is the error message you get *now*.
 

Quote

I would suggest a post in the suggestion area. I would love to see this limitation removed.

 

Yeah.  Somebody else can do this.  I thought I was reporting a bug to the developers (there is no other mechanism).  Didn't expect to deal with entrenched players chiming in to say "it doesn't work that way" (now) - which I thought was obvious and I've made clear I know.  I don't think there is anything more that I can add, so I'm done.

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21 hours ago, Arindor said:

This is also wrong.  The dangerous side-shaft message is *intended* to warn about vastly different heights between tunnels.  There is nothing dangerous about two cave tiles (voids) meeting diagonally at the same height, which is why the message is inappropriate and this is a bug.

Dangerous side shaft message is for diagonals, always has been.

 

Different heights message is Dangerous Deep Shaft. These are confused all the time.

 

I've managed to make a side shaft using tunnel. I've also seen tiles collapse and produce side shafts. Other than these 2, it's not been possible for players to create 1 at least in a long long time.

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