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wipeout

Auction house

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So the idea is simple
An auction house that is accessible from any trader
Items are picked up from mailboxes/wagoners(if bulk)
This means either go to a starter town to trade/purchase the needed things to set up your own little AH spot
All AH's are connected cross server but cluster only(epic has their own and freedom has their own and so do the kingdoms)

If you need a reference to how it would work look at the likes of Runescape's Grand Exchange or Age of conan's tradepost's or World of warcraft's auction house

As for specifics of the ui in simple terms
A list of all items listed based on recent posting(auto update every minute)
A filter option that lets you filter the main list for specific types for example weapons or specific weapons and so on or enchants
A search option that lets you search for specific items or any other things related to said items(enchants quality material type so on)
A button that can be pressed to make a new listing of an item and would show an inventory where you can drag drop items into(and also transfer from crates or entire crates full of items) into it

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Now to address some possible fears
"but item prices will plumed uncontrollably as people will keep listing items for cheaper and cheaper in hopes it sells faster" And yes some might but are you willing to sell your 1k iron bricks for 20c when you just saw a sale go through of someone buying them for 1s? Would you shoot yourself in the foot by listing it that cheap when the average price the AH gives you is 1s/1k?

"But player interaction will lower" and to that i say this What player interaction? We see trade being spammed for days with the same sell and buy posts sometimes for weeks on end and when someone does finally buy or sells something to them its maybe 5-10 lines of text total is it really that much different from directly trading at an AH? when those 10 lines consist of "Hey are you still selling this if so can i buy it" "oh ya i am are you willing to pick it up?" and so on
"But it is not wurm enough we should make it harder not easier" But why? With the changes to the game with RMT gone with our world being hit with corona with our dwindling player base our trade is as good as dead players arent really willing to invest rl currency into the game anyway making trade more modern(it is a game after all) and more enjoyable for us isnt a bad thing right?
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Now i am sure there are more questions and if so ask them and i will answer them now i will list some points as to why it would be a benefit for wurm

When the game releases on steam and if it catches the eyes of people a lot who play games like wurm(mmo's and the likes) are all used to an AH it makes the games more enjoyable for everyone from the new comers to long time players
Trade will be centralized instead of in 2 channels(forums and trade chat)
it can potentially revive the old trade deeds we once had by players being able to invest into the trader and wagoner needed to make that happen(great silver sink for the devs)
Having a clear view of what gets traded and how often will help everyone see what they can buy and sell and at how much and it will make for a more engaging market (finding your niche that you can fill is something a lot of people enjoy doing in a lot of games)

Sure if an AH was added item prices will go a bit whacky at first(maybe they wont) but if they do after a while things will settle down and prices will be exactly what the playerbase wants them to be

Anyway i really want to hear you guys your opinions on it and addons that you might want to have to this idea or maybe things to take away and some proper for and against points would be quite nice to see as well

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+1 I've been asking the same question since day one "Why does Wurm has this ancient model of trading that does more to separate players than unite them?" aka lack of an AH.

 

An AH over time does a lot of good for the economy, namely it tends to average out prices with few fluctuations over time, assuming an item doesn't have increased value due to new mechanics, or less value due to them (think how the metal update changed the value of iron, copper, gold, etc.).

 

I would love to see the best offer on an AH vs its quality.

 

My suggestion would also be to add a tax on any item put on the AH, the auctioneer takes a 10-20% cut from sales, if the sale is made succesfully. Having a trade chat that is spammed endlessly with the same offers, having difficulty sometimes to keep track of what is on offer or not is frustrating to put it mildly.

 

An auctioneer could be purchased as well for 5 silvers and put in on your deed in a small building so you can access the AH network. Other than that all starter towns should have 1 auctioneer present.

 

There's a reason a lot of companies had huge success with centralizing marketplaces (Amazon, ebay, alibaba, etc.). Most medieval simulators have a similar AH system, not to ruin immersion but to add value to the player experience. It's just plain old common sense that streamlines an otherwise tedious process Wurm seems intent on clinging on too with tooth and claw just to be "hardcore". It's not hardcore, it's just a bore, let's face it.

 

An AH would revitalize the market since people can now see armors on offer, swords of varying quality and enchants, etc.

 

I'd also add "Customized offers" to the AH such as small 100 character descriptions such as "Offering masonry services on site", "Offering weapon improving and repair services.". "Offering farming services." etc, for people who don't necesarily want to sell items but their skills.

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-1

 

I've always been opposed to an auction house system because of this:

 

2 hours ago, wipeout said:

"but item prices will plumed uncontrollably as people will keep listing items for cheaper and cheaper in hopes it sells faster" And yes some might but are you willing to sell your 1k iron bricks for 20c when you just saw a sale go through of someone buying them for 1s? Would you shoot yourself in the foot by listing it that cheap when the average price the AH gives you is 1s/1k?

 

I'm not here to argue about numbers, but I believe this is an exaggeration.  I also believe the concern boils down to the fact that an AH would do nothing to alleviate the already red-lined "buyers" market... in fact it would make things worse.

 

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-1 for many reasons but main ones:

 

* I don't want Wurm to have a Runescape, Age of Conan, World of Warcraft or any other MMOs feature

* Player interactions are not limited only to post trade channel WTB/WTS, it's a real chat with the person, negociating price, deal, plan the delivery / pickup then meet the other player, chat about his deed, having a tour, visit, explore etc ...

 

The only thing i COULD be ok with, is just a trade board like the Village Recruitment Board, where you can place WTS / WTB announcements. With only text announcements WRITTEN by players and where you still need to contact and chat and deal with players.

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11 minutes ago, Wargasm said:

-1

 

I've always been opposed to an auction house system because of this:

 

 

I'm not here to argue about numbers, but I believe this is an exaggeration.  I also believe the concern boils down to the fact that an AH would do nothing to alleviate the already red-lined "buyers" market... in fact it would make things worse.

 

Maybe it might maybe it might not but sure it would probably highlight the issue of low pop more but i mean if an AH was to come in it would prob come during or after steam release when there would be more players and thus a bigger population  so the current issue we have of nearly no buyers compared to sellers would not be as big of a thing
 

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-1  if I wanted AH systems I'd just go back to <insert nearly all other MMO's here>

 

Besides, lmao, Xanadu would lag from trying to keep up with the requirements to run an AH... waka waka

Edited by Nomadikhan

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+1, it'd boost economy. and why wurm has to be behind other games?

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Many players have a problem of not selling things for weeks/months  ... the mistake is to think is due to the lack of an AH system but it's a problem of too high offer vs too low demand. As old as the world and an AH won't solve this problem for sure and will bring more problems to the economy than solve some.

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7 minutes ago, Syhl said:

AH won't solve this problem for sure and will bring more problems to the economy than solve some.

what problems can AH bring?

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-1 , but I do have some positives listed also.

 

 

Reputation and the Death of the Merchant

As a player driven economy, Wurm works a lot on recommendations and referrals.  I can ensure that the silver I am spending is going to someone that I -WANT- to buy from and not just a nameless figure. Now, why would this be a problem? Well, because if you don't need to work out the middle man (delivery, pickup, inter server travel, choosing a buyer based on their ability to get the goods to you within certain time frames etc etc ) literally everyone will convert to this system to save time and effort..and that takes away one of the best parts of Wurms economy - Your actions dictate whether or not you are purchased from. Your reputation gains you work or takes work from you. Yes I could buy from known sellers without going through the AH - but then it adds more work onto it than it would if we just used the AH system and can be documented on virtually all games with those auction houses to be a dying method of trading, if not already dead. 

 

I am very familiar with Runescape, before the grand exchange and after, also very familiar with WoW's AH which was once alright, but is now worse AH after the update which has moved it closer to runescapes system. Below is a small list of things that personally affected me as both a consumer and merchant on both of those games was that I instantly saw a drop in sales that then kept low and actually lead to a far larger drop in profit margins. 

 

1. Auto buying the item isn't fair on everyone. You list the item on runescape for the same price as everyone else and it may stay up there for months without being chosen at random. On WoW, you list the item and it may stay up there until it comes down, then you relist at the same price as everyone else again and RNG may not pluck your item from the grips.  You could list it cheaper and it will sell quicker, or you could list it higher and it will never sell, either way, you are ruled by RNG on whether or not that item will even sell at all or you'll be forced to sell below market value.

2. It devalues the bartering system by making bartering an older method that will become considered as 'extra steps' compared to the easy listing of an AH. People are far less likely to barter or cut deals when you can just hit 3 buttons and list an item for the same price as everyone, don't have to worry about transport which cuts into time and the many other reasons.

3. Your reputation becomes irrelevant. All the time spent advertising and becoming well known on the game for your work disappears as everyone swaps to the new system and your item is just another item in a list. This may not affect those that do imping, but it will for sure affect other areas.

4. It puts too much incentive on personal, bulk reduced price trading, which leads to heavily devalued bulk goods. We have already seen bulk bricks dropping from 2s per 1k down to 1.2s per 1k when being sold in bulk becoming a norm, now imagine competing with a market where someone can purchase up to 50,000 bricks + at once.

 

Problem with Qualities/Sorting the AH/Bulk Goods Sales

One thing important to remember also is that on all of those games, items do not have qualities as Wurm does. If I want to list 1000 bricks for sale, and the average QL is 40 but a large majority of the bricks are in the 50's and some are in the 30s, how will it average the price if someone is just on the market to purchase 1 50ql brick? Will it make my 1k bricks accessible to all in one bulk purchase at a set QL, or will it list them all in different brackets? How will the AH be kept clean with the varying difficulties and damages on the items? Will an item with damage even be able to be listed? These are all important things that will need to be addressed.

 

Positives...that still don't outweigh the negatives for me.

The positives from these systems in my eyes are few and far between but below are some I couldn't disagree with even if you paid me too.

1. Easier for newer/shyer/time restricted players to get/sell their items by enabling offline transactions.

2. Easier for purchasing those odd goods that aren't seen in trade as often.

3. Access to goods without server hopping for those landlocked/sea locked players.

4. Allows for greater methods of indexing the economy and allows developers a great insight into the market without having to spend days pouring over trade chat. This leads to research into supply demand and all of that other juicy math graph stuff.

5. Provides an index to reference for current price points.

 

As someone that spends majority of my time on online games acting as a merchant/trader - these AH systems are what kill the players economy and virtually makes all forms of buying/selling the equivalency of talking to an NPC. Hell, the Devs could just throw items on there at random and you wouldn't even know - or care. I've been through the introduction and changes to AH systems and if there are AH systems that kill the personality behind the economy, its the Runescape / New WoW AH system.

 

 

 

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-1 I'd rather have all those markets all over the servers back.

 

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+1 it would be nice reality check for the current market pricing

 

13 hours ago, Syhl said:

-1 for many reasons but main ones:

 

* I don't want Wurm to have a Runescape, Age of Conan, World of Warcraft or any other MMOs feature

* Player interactions are not limited only to post trade channel WTB/WTS, it's a real chat with the person, negociating price, deal, plan the delivery / pickup then meet the other player, chat about his deed, having a tour, visit, explore etc ...

 

The only thing i COULD be ok with, is just a trade board like the Village Recruitment Board, where you can place WTS / WTB announcements. With only text announcements WRITTEN by players and where you still need to contact and chat and deal with players.

Even if this thing hit live, which i doubt, you can still have a choice not to use it and use the old archaic forms

 

13 hours ago, Wargasm said:

I'm not here to argue about numbers, but I believe this is an exaggeration.  I also believe the concern boils down to the fact that an AH would do nothing to alleviate the already red-lined "buyers" market... in fact it would make things worse.

 

And how is that a fact all of sudden? If you stuff doesn't sell and you wish to sell, then you have an option to think about and ask yourself what you do wrong or ask the buyers what they doing wrong

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11 hours ago, Blazecraze said:

1. Auto buying the item isn't fair on everyone. You list the item on runescape for the same price as everyone else and it may stay up there for months without being chosen at random. On WoW, you list the item and it may stay up there until it comes down, then you relist at the same price as everyone else again and RNG may not pluck your item from the grips.  You could list it cheaper and it will sell quicker, or you could list it higher and it will never sell, either way, you are ruled by RNG on whether or not that item will even sell at all or you'll be forced to sell below market value.

Maybe it could be made that you deliver the goods to the location so called  "auction house" and you receive a token that represent the goods that you can then auction it or list it for sale, so the buyer actually have to go there and exchange it, the same with the seller

 

11 hours ago, Blazecraze said:

. It devalues the bartering system by making bartering an older method that will become considered as 'extra steps' compared to the easy listing of an AH. People are far less likely to barter or cut deals when you can just hit 3 buttons and list an item for the same price as everyone, don't have to worry about transport which cuts into time and the many other reasons.

Trade chat, forum, merchants - is this the bartering system we talk about? Nothing of value if you ask me, it's simply only trading option availible

 

11 hours ago, Blazecraze said:

3. Your reputation becomes irrelevant. All the time spent advertising and becoming well known on the game for your work disappears as everyone swaps to the new system and your item is just another item in a list. This may not affect those that do imping, but it will for sure affect other areas.

It's just another item in the chest anyways. Is it really building reputation by spamming the same item or stuff for sale, every 30mins for a month or so, untill it sold?

 

11 hours ago, Blazecraze said:

4. It puts too much incentive on personal, bulk reduced price trading, which leads to heavily devalued bulk goods. We have already seen bulk bricks dropping from 2s per 1k down to 1.2s per 1k when being sold in bulk becoming a norm, now imagine competing with a market where someone can purchase up to 50,000 bricks + at once.

And where this 2s price come from and why is it a bad thing for a price from 10 years ago to change? Who is that someone that is in charge for prices in wurm?

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13 hours ago, Blazecraze said:

-1 , but I do have some positives listed also.

 

 

Reputation and the Death of the Merchant

As a player driven economy, Wurm works a lot on recommendations and referrals.  I can ensure that the silver I am spending is going to someone that I -WANT- to buy from and not just a nameless figure. Now, why would this be a problem? Well, because if you don't need to work out the middle man (delivery, pickup, inter server travel, choosing a buyer based on their ability to get the goods to you within certain time frames etc etc ) literally everyone will convert to this system to save time and effort..and that takes away one of the best parts of Wurms economy - Your actions dictate whether or not you are purchased from. Your reputation gains you work or takes work from you. Yes I could buy from known sellers without going through the AH - but then it adds more work onto it than it would if we just used the AH system and can be documented on virtually all games with those auction houses to be a dying method of trading, if not already dead. 

 

I am very familiar with Runescape, before the grand exchange and after, also very familiar with WoW's AH which was once alright, but is now worse AH after the update which has moved it closer to runescapes system. Below is a small list of things that personally affected me as both a consumer and merchant on both of those games was that I instantly saw a drop in sales that then kept low and actually lead to a far larger drop in profit margins. 

 

1. Auto buying the item isn't fair on everyone. You list the item on runescape for the same price as everyone else and it may stay up there for months without being chosen at random. On WoW, you list the item and it may stay up there until it comes down, then you relist at the same price as everyone else again and RNG may not pluck your item from the grips.  You could list it cheaper and it will sell quicker, or you could list it higher and it will never sell, either way, you are ruled by RNG on whether or not that item will even sell at all or you'll be forced to sell below market value.

2. It devalues the bartering system by making bartering an older method that will become considered as 'extra steps' compared to the easy listing of an AH. People are far less likely to barter or cut deals when you can just hit 3 buttons and list an item for the same price as everyone, don't have to worry about transport which cuts into time and the many other reasons.

3. Your reputation becomes irrelevant. All the time spent advertising and becoming well known on the game for your work disappears as everyone swaps to the new system and your item is just another item in a list. This may not affect those that do imping, but it will for sure affect other areas.

4. It puts too much incentive on personal, bulk reduced price trading, which leads to heavily devalued bulk goods. We have already seen bulk bricks dropping from 2s per 1k down to 1.2s per 1k when being sold in bulk becoming a norm, now imagine competing with a market where someone can purchase up to 50,000 bricks + at once.

 

Problem with Qualities/Sorting the AH/Bulk Goods Sales

One thing important to remember also is that on all of those games, items do not have qualities as Wurm does. If I want to list 1000 bricks for sale, and the average QL is 40 but a large majority of the bricks are in the 50's and some are in the 30s, how will it average the price if someone is just on the market to purchase 1 50ql brick? Will it make my 1k bricks accessible to all in one bulk purchase at a set QL, or will it list them all in different brackets? How will the AH be kept clean with the varying difficulties and damages on the items? Will an item with damage even be able to be listed? These are all important things that will need to be addressed.

 

Positives...that still don't outweigh the negatives for me.

The positives from these systems in my eyes are few and far between but below are some I couldn't disagree with even if you paid me too.

1. Easier for newer/shyer/time restricted players to get/sell their items by enabling offline transactions.

2. Easier for purchasing those odd goods that aren't seen in trade as often.

3. Access to goods without server hopping for those landlocked/sea locked players.

4. Allows for greater methods of indexing the economy and allows developers a great insight into the market without having to spend days pouring over trade chat. This leads to research into supply demand and all of that other juicy math graph stuff.

5. Provides an index to reference for current price points.

 

As someone that spends majority of my time on online games acting as a merchant/trader - these AH systems are what kill the players economy and virtually makes all forms of buying/selling the equivalency of talking to an NPC. Hell, the Devs could just throw items on there at random and you wouldn't even know - or care. I've been through the introduction and changes to AH systems and if there are AH systems that kill the personality behind the economy, its the Runescape / New WoW AH system.



Something to consider it doesnt have to be an anon GE style system it can be like i stated before "A list of all items listed based on recent posting(auto update every minute)" which would display all the items information and the seller thus you would know who you buy from you could contact that seller and ask for more info/more goods you can still interact with said seller at all times i never once suggested "Oh we need a GE style AH i mentioned the GE from rs as a point of reference to make people be a bit more familiar with what its meant to be
Using fine tiny details to say no instead of "add this to it and it would be better" is a bit over the top if you ask me

Onto your points
1. This is not true the longest some of my least known and rarely traded items has sat on the GE in OSRS or in RS was 23 hours and i was selling said rarely traded(under 8k a day traded) at 5% above listed market price every other item i list for sale or purchase goes through insanely quickly and sure thats thanks to the huge player base and in wurm it will be slower but your stone bricks that you are selling at 1.5s/k or 1s/k will not sit there for months upon months
2. Who honestly barters for prices on individual items in wurm? Sure there is the odd person who tries but that just annoys a person who is providing a service as they stated clear prices and they dont want to go below those prices unless its bulk goods or a swap(supply mm lumps and thus price goes down kinda thing) this can still be done after all why wouldnt it, You see a services for imping tools to 95 listed on the jobs section(if such a thing gets added or what ever you wanna call it for imping services and the likes) and you see that they list mm items as 7s to ql 90 you pm them ask them if you supply the mm if its cheaper and of you go the AH would become a central place for trade and information and make this a lot easier in the first place
3. How would it become irrelevant anymore then it already is? most people really do not give 2 "insert copper coin here to see curse word" about a persons reputation other then "is he or she reliable" but an AH where you deposit items beforehand during creation of a listing would make that part of "does he or she actually deliver the items" irrelevant which honestly who here is going around paying for goods upfront anyway lets be honest if you do please contact your nearest "how to internet for dummys" book asap, jokes aside currently we barely ever have anyone trying to scam anyone as we are a close nit community for the most part an AH would make that no different reputation will still account for services that get delivered and so on and thus in the end of the day an AH doesnt invalidate this at all
4.Again the fear of hyper devalue and a free fall of prices that would not really happen people will not put their stock up for insanely low values just in hopes it will go faster as they will then go "oh i sold this for peanuts and i spend hours doing this this isnt worth it" and continue to stock it at normal market price, If someone puts up 80k bricks then multiple people could buy portions from that person all at the same time and it would work out if they list it at 1.5s or 1s a k then who really cares if a giant buy order is in the list if you dont want to directly buy from that person click on the other person selling it

Here this might be a better example of what kind of AH i envision 
ucTJpxo.png

This here shows the purchase of exalted orbs in path of exile vs the price of chaos orbs(both are standard currency and can be compared to gold and silver) every seller can be contacted individually in this example
Now in wurm if you search for stone bricks it would just be a list of stone bricks row after row after row with prices quantity and average quality and the sellers name and it would be that simple


So again i get the "Oh no anonymous AH of GE is bad in my eyes" but like i listed at the start of my op it would be a list displaying all items so i hope that now you might see where i am going and how your points would still carry weight because reputation and the likes are still an important thing

As for this
 

"Problem with Qualities/Sorting the AH/Bulk Goods Sales

One thing important to remember also is that on all of those games, items do not have qualities as Wurm does. If I want to list 1000 bricks for sale, and the average QL is 40 but a large majority of the bricks are in the 50's and some are in the 30s, how will it average the price if someone is just on the market to purchase 1 50ql brick? Will it make my 1k bricks accessible to all in one bulk purchase at a set QL, or will it list them all in different brackets? How will the AH be kept clean with the varying difficulties and damages on the items? Will an item with damage even be able to be listed? These are all important things that will need to be addressed."

It is quite simple i point you to this line "A button that can be pressed to make a new listing of an item and would show an inventory where you can drag drop items into(and also transfer from crates or entire crates full of items) into it" and now i shall expand on it a bit more
Any item placed in the trade window would be instantly repaired and quality will drop(visually this will only happen once you put the item up for trade if you take the item out it will still remain the same as it was before) now to prevent abuse of cancelling the listing and "free repair"(ql still drops and you get no skill so why do it but anyway) have a min time that a listing has to be up for or a small mailing fee for instant cancels if item is repaired
Any item that has multiples of a kind that can be stored in crates will behave just like they do in a crate the quality will average for that entire listing so you could drop ql 1 bricks and ql 90 bricks in there and get an average once you put up the listing


The point i was trying to originally get at with the OP was the idea of an AH to see how people's opinions are on it more so then a fully feature rich fledged out idea(I have one laying around but its to long of a wall of text for the forums) that would take hours to read over

I hope that this addresses your fears of it being an idea to be an exact copy of the GE and more of a "hey the GE is referenced to give players an idea what an auction house can be" after all the tradepost of aoc is also listed and have a look at how that looks
tradepost2.jpg
This kinda view is what i had in mind more so then the basic GE except you know more catered towards wurm's needs then aoc's

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i've suggested something like this some time ago as well love this idea perhaps have the ability to hire a auctioneer npc for your deed, 

 

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An AH would affect the rich sandbox experience that WO has to offer. 

 

I know OP said he did not inend a GE clone but I can give you as an example my experience with Runescape (since it was mentioned here before), and how the GE affected fundamental aspects of that game and how something simillar will ruin the WO experience for many. A case study on another sandbox game if you will.

I played many, many years ago the old version of Runescape where you had no Grand Exchange (AH). Since that game was also sandbox (in a way), I had a project to level my prayer, which required getting bones from slain creatures. This implied player interaction - i needed shop around banks where items were advertised (similar to WO trade chat but only more local), and in addition to that, to speed things up, I had to look for people that were raising their combat skill and could supply me with those bones. Blacksmiths had the same situation, as they needed to find people to supply them with ores from miners, some of those ores even requiring miners to travel to pvp areas.

You could even purchase fish for cooking cheaper at popular fishing spots, where people were just leveling and we're more than happy to give you the fish for less the price as it meant they didn't have to go to the AH.

So basically this meant:

  1. Lots of player interaction. Not just haggling, but customized deals and such.
  2. Lots of flexibility of how you got what you needed, or how you made profit or sold your wares/services. So basically a sandbox trading system.

When grand exchange came the whole interaction aspect disappeared entirely, and the flexibility and freedom of ways you could approach trade was greatly reduced. It felt like a big part of the game was missing - the massively multiplayer and sandbox aspects to be more precise. It simply was no longer as engaging as it used to be and we got bored of it (as kids).

The worst part was the sense of isolation it brought with it. People were each minding their own business, interacting with the stock-market alone. I felt more isolated there, with tens of players running around the streets of Varrock, than I feel in WO, on Serenity. Please don't say the AH is going to bring people together. It's going to isolate people even more.

I can tell you now, for those reasons alone, I felt back then I would have preferred the old trading system, where I had gotten scammed of my entire sum of gold, than the new one that made the game so uninteresting.

 

I want the game to force me and other players, to find ways of trading, to find the tradesmen, the suppliers, the buyers, to negociate a good deal and all that it entails - exploring the world, asking friends for referrals, etc. The AH could ruin the game for people looking for a sandbox experience.

Edited by Idlamn

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19 hours ago, Idlamn said:

snip

Just to give some extra context to his examples

OSRS and RS went the way of every server is the same with certain village banks being hot spot lag fests of trade spam with the fanciest of walls of texts(and spam macro's and bots) where trade was nearly impossible as so many people tried to do stuff that people spread out to trade elsewhere varrock east bank being a prime example(to get away from the smiths at west bank)
And later on after the GE and revamping of the pvp area a few times they went to customized and dedicated event servers eg trade 1 and 2(all worlds have access to GE) where people still spam trade and do all kinds of trade activities and on RS setup benches for on the spot crafting(thank god that isnt in osrs)
Jagex choose to go the route of activity based servers to bring a disconnected community together and silence the whining of people who just wanted to grind from being griefed none stop due to spells and what not
Now days the experience that idlamn wants can be gained in the trade 1 and 2(server 1 and 2) the running of prayer runs can be done on world 30 where a near full server runs house parties and gilded altars for prayer grind

Jagex their way to deal with what was the issue at one point was to localize activities because their game needed it
Players still to this day use the forums and other sites and custom clients their chats and what not to make private deals more so then ever(me included last time i bought 2m steel bars at 10% under market price with the promise id sell the cannonballs back to the person at 25% under market price and i was grinding at the time so why not) there issue comes that because osrs is so old now most fishing spots are empty not because of the GE but the rampant bot issue about 80-90k bots get banned a week but their items stay on the GE instead of taken off(jagex stated its a gold sink reason to stop rs3's inflated gold prices issue from occurring faster in osrs) add to that the same issue wurm has with most who play having maxed out accounts or close to in the skills they want and there being a guide that takes you on a route to all quests around the game which at the end leave you with a close to maxed out account with little to no real grinding to be done if you have the gold beforehand to buy the required items

So fishing spots and the likes remain empty because there are a bunch of quests that give fishing skill rewards that outperform any type of fishing unless you wanna fish for money which isnt profitable vs time spend when compared to other methods so you barely see anyone do it but bots


For wurm the AH could be as simple as have them be at starter towns only and leave existing channels be around and both will be used newbies will flock to the starter towns to buy and sell so will us existing players and for services trade chat and forums remain a great way as well to spread our service and as always the player name would be visible so you can always contact the person to make a better deal that stretches beyond just a single purchase

The thing is we all have a limited amount of time in our lives we have a giant server where travel time is insane we have a dying group of players(3513 current active accounts including alts(given that i own 12 of these you can see where the number goes down quickly)) we once had 10k+ active accounts way back that number has been decreasing over the years slowly but surely towards where we are at now and of those 3500 a lot will be alts and of those who arent not many want to trade really unless it is something they really want and need and cant get themselves unless they make a priest
We have an insane amount of players who are silent players who do not talk in freedom chat or global or the forums or anywhere they play with all those channels turned off and ignore local and are pretty much hermits they might pop up out of the blue at random if they have an issue but thats it
So take away alts and that group of players and what do you have? us vocal old timers and newer vocal people who want to trade and share their ideas and we make up a small section of the game's population


Having an AH would not make everyone stop spreading their wts's as once its on the AH if 50+ people post stone bricks it will take a while to get yours sold so you advertise it and trying to get people to buy yours over bobs who listed his at the same price that competition of popularity will be there still if not even more so because its so much easier to buy it then then it was before

The AH that i hope for will never be one that does not list a players name on the sell or buy order and thus reputation and referrals and the likes all will remain a valid way to interact and trade
But besides all this how would the AH ruin sandbox? it is merely an addon a way to make it easier to trade for people it doesnt restrict you in anyway shape or form from being able to enjoy the current wurm experience at all


And just to say i could talk in depth about the botting problem in osrs but maybe in a pm or something(and no not on how to do it but the impact it has on osrs) if anyone wants to

Edited by wipeout

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On 5/30/2020 at 3:16 PM, wipeout said:

We have an insane amount of players who are silent players who do not talk in freedom chat or global or the forums or anywhere they play with all those channels turned off and ignore local and are pretty much hermits they might pop up out of the blue at random if they have an issue but thats it
So take away alts and that group of players and what do you have? us vocal old timers and newer vocal people who want to trade and share their ideas and we make up a small section of the game's population

I am not sure what would AH bring to those players you mention.

Is it the ability to buy or sell things without interaction with other players? For gear there is already the merchants feature. Also, this being a MMO I doubt people want to play it in a way they avoid all player interaction at all costs.

Or is  it the ability to get things fast without leaving their deed? There is already mailing items and the wagoner for this. I don't know about things like forges/furniture. Maybe they could add those to the wagoner. There is also the possibility of paying the person to deliver or selling at a lower price and requiring the buyer to pick up. Moving around is a part of the game.

 

I also understand that an AH does not technically limit the sandbox experience. But also technically in games like AoC (since I saw it mentioned above) you can still trade outside the AH. But in my AoC experience this only happened when I needed things that craftsment would not bother puttin up in the AH.

The game needs to force you to play in a sandbox way. All players, new and old, will take the way of minimal action. Nobody will go through the extra steps of interacting with another person just for the sake of it.

So even if technically you still have the sandbox, practically it becomes obsolete.

 

For offline trading there can be a notice board, as it was suggested. Players can simply write mails as they send PMs on the forums. I'd only be ok with that seeing that we already have trade sections on the forums, and this would basically be moving those in the game.

 

And then there's another thing. How are they going to design this whole AH system in WO where you are buying horses, ships, wagons, bulk items. You just get a caravel in your inventory and you spawn it on your pond? This seems to be taking the game in a different direction than sandbox.

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22 minutes ago, Idlamn said:

I am not sure what would AH bring to those players you mention.

Is it the ability to buy or sell things without interaction with other players? For gear there is already the merchants feature. Also, this being a MMO I doubt people want to play it in a way they avoid all player interaction at all costs.

Or is  it the ability to get things fast without leaving their deed? There is already mailing items and the wagoner for this. I don't know about things like forges/furniture. Maybe they could add those to the wagoner. There is also the possibility of paying the person to deliver or selling at a lower price and requiring the buyer to pick up. Moving around is a part of the game.

Just because wurm is an mmo doesnt mean there are players who dont avoid as much if not all interaction with others they have always been there in every game we just generally never see them much  which is what they want
As for the "not leaving deed part" if they are willing to invest the money into buying a trader and a wagoneer/equivalent npc in order to participate in the AH is it that bad of a thing? as high chance is that will come down to a silver purchase from the game store
As for things like forges and furniture the idea is when you create a listing you drag drop items into a new window from a wagon or inventory so same would go the otherway you open the AH window for picking up items and click unload
So unless they are willing to invest the silver they would still need to travel to the nearest starter deed/trade deed to find the AH

22 minutes ago, Idlamn said:

I also understand that an AH does not technically limit the sandbox experience. But also technically in games like AoC (since I saw it mentioned above) you can still trade outside the AH. But in my AoC experience this only happened when I needed things that craftsment would not bother puttin up in the AH.

The game needs to force you to play in a sandbox way. All players, new and old, will take the way of minimal action. Nobody will go through the extra steps of interacting with another person just for the sake of it.

So even if technically you still have the sandbox, practically it becomes obsolete.

The thing with AoC was that trade was an after thought from the start the game focused on guild warfare and big group playstyles while offering the AH and the likes for the solo/small group player to get what they wanted slowly but surely but in my time play AoC (first few expansions after release) every town i went to there where people trading at the ah yes but also a lot nearby spamming chat left and right for trades often in bigger quantities or just lower in price and what not and i myself atleast sold to AH often as my little group we tried to spend as little time as possible in towns but i often still bought from players and did quite a bit of trades with crafters who where ahead of our group
But in the end trade might have died out now considering the game has gotten old and popularity wavered quite a bit

22 minutes ago, Idlamn said:

For offline trading there can be a notice board, as it was suggested. Players can simply write mails as they send PMs on the forums. I'd only be ok with that seeing that we already have trade sections on the forums, and this would basically be moving those in the game.

Offline trading issues is 1 of the biggest reasons we got the mailbox in the first place as so many people pushed for it as shipping groups where disappearing faster and faster so it either meant you spend 6 hours sailing to someone on xanadu or you just dont trade to xanadu so mailboxes where added

23 minutes ago, Idlamn said:

And then there's another thing. How are they going to design this whole AH system in WO where you are buying horses, ships, wagons, bulk items. You just get a caravel in your inventory and you spawn it on your pond? This seems to be taking the game in a different direction than sandbox.

For bulk items i already mentioned it before you load/drag crates into the inventory either directly from a wagon or by right clicking and doing "load to trade window" when the window for it is open
For horses the animal token mod springs to mind a horse gets transformed into a token and token is stored in the AH then when bought your only option would be to right click in the trade window and right click open or just press open or whatever and the horse appears right there
For boats and wagons and the likes the boat would be parked on the deed that has the AH npc and when sold it disappears and when bought it appears on that same spot again for example the dock you parked it at that way it wont clutter the trading deeds with hunderds of boats and 2 you cant just walk around with it in your inventory either it will be on the same spot it was on last(pretty much again turned into a token when stored on the AH or something like that)

Another way which would clutter the place up a lot is that players can park their wagon/boat somewhere and upon selling the ownership is transferred to the npc and then when bought the ownership is transferred to the player who bought it meanwhile you can see it the whole time and examine it to see the owner(the npc) and the trade id(to search for that particular wagon maybe)

There are a few days i could think of that could work with vehicles that would either look clean or crowded in their own ways but none would be "pop into inventory and you can take it anywhere" kinda thing

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5 hours ago, wipeout said:

Just because wurm is an mmo doesnt mean there are players who dont avoid as much if not all interaction with others they have always been there in every game we just generally never see them much  which is what they want

Yeah I know that there's this type of players. And as a sandbox the game should allow you to play like a hermit. And it does. You spend a week or two getting your necessary tools and meterials then you can avoid people for a very long time until you need other things again. But changing the game so much for everyone just so that those players don't ever have to do this is too much in my opinion.

 

5 hours ago, wipeout said:

As for the "not leaving deed part" if they are willing to invest the money into buying a trader and a wagoneer/equivalent npc in order to participate in the AH is it that bad of a thing? as high chance is that will come down to a silver purchase from the game store

Or they can still purchase money and pay the seller to transport. I do this for convenience, even though I enjoy travelling in WO. I also buy summons to shorten the journey or some task I am working on.

 

5 hours ago, wipeout said:

The thing with AoC was that trade was an after thought from the start the game focused on guild warfare and big group playstyles while offering the AH and the likes for the solo/small group player to get what they wanted slowly but surely but in my time play AoC (first few expansions after release) every town i went to there where people trading at the ah yes but also a lot nearby spamming chat left and right for trades often in bigger quantities or just lower in price and what not and i myself atleast sold to AH often as my little group we tried to spend as little time as possible in towns but i often still bought from players and did quite a bit of trades with crafters who where ahead of our group
But in the end trade might have died out now considering the game has gotten old and popularity wavered quite a bit

I am surprised to hear that there were even people advertising trade. I played before any expansion, when the game had peak population, and no-one was doing this as if they wanted to sell cheaper they could just list in AH cheaper. I only did this because I wanted that shemitish set of armor (+ some other things) and had to go outside the usual trade channel - the AH, to find it, since nobody bothered making an expensive set just because someone might want it. If you disabled AH people would have had to find ways to buy and sell their stuff.

But as you mentioned this was not a main thing in the game. Here's a comparison with AoC also in regards to solo players - what brought people together in that game was rather the open-world pvp where ad-hoc alliances were formed and sometimes maintained for a very long time. You had to reach out to other players in order to defeat PK groups. Sometimes you went in an area to finish some quests, and you ended up spending the remainder of your game session in some feud with other players.

I know this because my guild had almost all other big guilds on the server as enemies and we we're getting attacked all the time. They'd say something like "oh look another lost little black wolf" (our guild was called the Black Wolves) and attacked you with like 5 vs 2 and probably remained in that area for some time so you wouldn't be able to finish your quests. The PvP was seldom fair in that game, but like you said this is what the game was all about - guild warfare, open world pvp.

 

WO on the other hand sells sandbox experience. And still as it is right now it is way more forgiving to players that don't interact. As there are npc merchants that can sell you all the necessary equipment for your projects. Of course if you have very ambitious projects with gigantic castles and all that you might have to find yourself some suppliers for the materials and do some travelling. Keep in mind that most MMOs with AH force players that have very ambitious goals slightly ambitious goals (gear better than quest rewards) to team up for instances where they get gear.

 

5 hours ago, wipeout said:

Offline trading issues is 1 of the biggest reasons we got the mailbox in the first place as so many people pushed for it as shipping groups where disappearing faster and faster so it either meant you spend 6 hours sailing to someone on xanadu or you just dont trade to xanadu so mailboxes where added

I did a sailing trip on Xanadu- about 31 grids north-south and west-east, and it didn't take me 6 hours. 4 at most afk sailing most of the time. I also went though all those canals bumping into caveins all the time. And you know what? I realized I could cut the trip short by plotting a course through Celebration, and it took me much less.

I also organize my trips so I get more things done during them than just get from point a to b and back again, then after a few days go to some place somewhere along this route.

 

 

5 hours ago, wipeout said:

For horses the animal token mod springs to mind a horse gets transformed into a token and token is stored in the AH then when bought your only option would be to right click in the trade window and right click open or just press open or whatever and the horse appears right there

Yes and if the player purchased an AH npc as you mentioned he gets the hoars at the deed, how convenient.

When he wants to transfer his stuff around the map, why bother getting a creature cage and sailing there. You can list your stuff for a ton of money with an alt, go with your main to the town/deed AH where you want to be. Buy those tokens - bam. Stuff right next to you.

 

Personally I would like to see a trade system like we had in RS back in the day - no announcements, only referals and local advertisement. Which I think in WO it would do even better than in RS.

However, considering people already have global advertisement in trade chat and on forums, I think this advertisement system can be somehow integrated in the game as a notice board somewhere. The only thing this would affect is the exploration aspect of the game, where you discover traders/merchants when you visit other places. The player can at least grab a piece of paper and a reed pen and write a letter to inquire about a certain offer.

 

Edited by Idlamn

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9 hours ago, Idlamn said:

I am surprised to hear that there were even people advertising trade. I played before any expansion, when the game had peak population, and no-one was doing this as if they wanted to sell cheaper they could just list in AH cheaper. I only did this because I wanted that shemitish set of armor (+ some other things) and had to go outside the usual trade channel - the AH, to find it, since nobody bothered making an expensive set just because someone might want it. If you disabled AH people would have had to find ways to buy and sell their stuff.

But as you mentioned this was not a main thing in the game. Here's a comparison with AoC also in regards to solo players - what brought people together in that game was rather the open-world pvp where ad-hoc alliances were formed and sometimes maintained for a very long time. You had to reach out to other players in order to defeat PK groups. Sometimes you went in an area to finish some quests, and you ended up spending the remainder of your game session in some feud with other players.

I know this because my guild had almost all other big guilds on the server as enemies and we we're getting attacked all the time. They'd say something like "oh look another lost little black wolf" (our guild was called the Black Wolves) and attacked you with like 5 vs 2 and probably remained in that area for some time so you wouldn't be able to finish your quests. The PvP was seldom fair in that game, but like you said this is what the game was all about - guild warfare, open world pvp.

So we played around the same time well might just have been the towns i was at and the time zones but it def was a thing its how i ended up in the guild i did in the first place

 

 

9 hours ago, Idlamn said:

WO on the other hand sells sandbox experience. And still as it is right now it is way more forgiving to players that don't interact. As there are npc merchants that can sell you all the necessary equipment for your projects. Of course if you have very ambitious projects with gigantic castles and all that you might have to find yourself some suppliers for the materials and do some travelling. Keep in mind that most MMOs with AH force players that have very ambitious goals slightly ambitious goals (gear better than quest rewards) to team up for instances where they get gear.

The issue is now with personal merchants that most are used for personal storage and those that are used for trade at starting towns and the likes are left either untended or are full of junk so people stop showing up to those places and the merchants leave if players actually went to starter towns/trade deeds like they did pre mailbox and pre lets just call it economy crash where buyers disappeared back then trade chat was all about "come visit my merchant at *blah town* selling weapons of ql 80 with 90+ enchants" and the likes that where spammed around at all times and you could go to those trade towns and see people in local the game felt like thats all that was needed but now those places feel like ghost towns and most actual trade deeds have disappeared leaving only starter deeds around to do it

 

 

9 hours ago, Idlamn said:

I did a sailing trip on Xanadu- about 31 grids north-south and west-east, and it didn't take me 6 hours. 4 at most afk sailing most of the time. I also went though all those canals bumping into caveins all the time. And you know what? I realized I could cut the trip short by plotting a course through Celebration, and it took me much less.

I also organize my trips so I get more things done during them than just get from point a to b and back again, then after a few days go to some place somewhere along this route.

And that right there is 1 of the other reasons im proposing it yes sailing and going on a trip in between picking up stuff might be fun to some but i bet there are quite a few players who do not want to sail for 4 hours on a toon to go somewhere to pick something up(my last trip on xan was 6 hours because of it being near the center of the map even when coming from the shortest route because bad wind) and then go back again most players dont play an entire work day worth of wurm in 1 go sure there are plenty that do but also plenty that dont i got a bunch on my friends list that log in for an hour or 2 max and do that a few times throughout the day they log in for 10-20 min before work to tend fields in the morning log in during break to check up on animals and then log in after dinner and chores are done to play for 2-3 hours to work on their projects and in weekends they play for like 4-5 hours if they dont need to do stuff
To me that would be the general addicted wurmian that has a normal life they wont have 4-6 hours worth to sail around on a giant server as that would be their entire day wasted when they have other things to do and not everyone wants to make an alt gear them up grind their skills just so that they can sail a boat around and keep it prem purely for sailing

 

 

9 hours ago, Idlamn said:

Yes and if the player purchased an AH npc as you mentioned he gets the hoars at the deed, how convenient.

When he wants to transfer his stuff around the map, why bother getting a creature cage and sailing there. You can list your stuff for a ton of money with an alt, go with your main to the town/deed AH where you want to be. Buy those tokens - bam. Stuff right next to you.

Yes at that deed where the AH npc is if he wants to purchase that npc so be it nothing that bad about it its not like bob is going to buy 10000 horses every week and most horse trade is alliance or same server anyway
A simple fix to that issue would be similar to the cancel early fee i talked about before apply a fee to any item that is vastly higher then average market price and to add ontop of that a simple check if same ip or same machine(wurm dev already knows if you play on the same machine or not) so lets say those things are in place i list my favorite horse for 10 gold via an alt and buy it for 10 gold with my main on the other side of the map now because the game saw i used the same machine/ip as to where that alt logged in from before(not current session but the past few) it charges me a 10% fee to stop that from happening and now your forced to pay a 1 gold fee you would be pissed to suddenly needing to only get back 9g on your alt
Sure you could get around that by having a friend who you dont share accounts with list the horse for you and what not but at that point it is technically a legit trade but most people would not bother to do that i think just to cross a part of the map
Another way is to simply make it impossible to buy stuff from accounts you log into be it same machine or ip address that are shared that way the only solution once again is to have a friend do it and no AH in the world in any game has a system to stop that in place so it be unfair to use that as a reason to be against it at that point ;)

 

 

9 hours ago, Idlamn said:

Personally I would like to see a trade system like we had in RS back in the day - no announcements, only referals and local advertisement. Which I think in WO it would do even better than in RS.

However, considering people already have global advertisement in trade chat and on forums, I think this advertisement system can be somehow integrated in the game as a notice board somewhere. The only thing this would affect is the exploration aspect of the game, where you discover traders/merchants when you visit other places. The player can at least grab a piece of paper and a reed pen and write a letter to inquire about a certain offer.

 

We used to have that in a way before trade channel before mailbox we had trade deeds where people put up merchants with items or renamed items and the likes
To sell bulk goods(which was rare at the time as no bsb) a merchant was placed called "bulk goods" and then a brick was listed at the total price and then with the rename of the quantity of items and a random item like a wooden shield or something with the rename saying "pm player name" and people would pm the person to purchase those bricks for that price from that person
That evolved into merchant shop posts to accompany personal merchants and they where posted here on the forums and it went from there towards what we have now 99% of people relying on mailbox instead of trade deeds
Like if we could go back to legit having a trading deed that is popular then ya an AH would not really be needed but the players of wurm have moved on from that they moved away from wanting to travel somewhere to figure out what goods are for trade they want more convenient way to trade so trade channel and extra sections in the market on the forums where added which spelled the death of the trading deeds and caused those who ran trading deeds to be quite angry at the time
So going back to a similar system although would be nice to have would not really be utilized a lot if at all really after all your proposal is basically null and void due to ingame pm and forum pms(atleast the last part of it) and the first part can already be done with personal merchants but we dont do that anymore as we would place one down and then 30 days later they would appear as contracts again and all items will be in the mail because no one bought anything from them
 

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1 hour ago, wipeout said:

And that right there is 1 of the other reasons im proposing it yes sailing and going on a trip in between picking up stuff might be fun to some but i bet there are quite a few players who do not want to sail for 4 hours on a toon to go somewhere to pick something up(my last trip on xan was 6 hours because of it being near the center of the map even when coming from the shortest route because bad wind) and then go back again most players dont play an entire work day worth of wurm in 1 go sure there are plenty that do but also plenty that dont i got a bunch on my friends list that log in for an hour or 2 max and do that a few times throughout the day they log in for 10-20 min before work to tend fields in the morning log in during break to check up on animals and then log in after dinner and chores are done to play for 2-3 hours to work on their projects and in weekends they play for like 4-5 hours if they dont need to do stuff
To me that would be the general addicted wurmian that has a normal life they wont have 4-6 hours worth to sail around on a giant server as that would be their entire day wasted when they have other things to do and not everyone wants to make an alt gear them up grind their skills just so that they can sail a boat around and keep it prem purely for sailing

I still don't understand why players need the game changed for this. On Xanadu if you upgrade your sailing skills and boat you can get pretty decent time on your trips. Also if they should get this addressed to remove any possible frustrating moments: 

Furthermore it can be done in a manner where you are working on other skills - I sometimes imp my tailoring stuff on boat. And in a manner that can be away from the computer entirely - you just set a direction and come back when you think you have reached the next canal or whatever (it is also possible to predict when you will do so). Of course you cannot be attending your fields or horses while sailing.

Also, if you have just 1 hour sessions you can simply logout. I had this tour on horseback that took me from the east of the Whitefay province all around down to Esteron. I explored a lot of areas on the way, so not simply followed the road there. I couldn't play for more than  1 hour or so so I had to take a sleeping bag with me so I get sleep bonus (as I used all of it) when I logged out. This whole thing took about a week. I simply had to adapt my kit to my playstyle.

And last but not least if the sail time is too much for a player maybe that player should try doing their business on servers smaller than Xanadu. It is much faster there to get around the map.

 

So the game offers you possibilities in this direction: upgrade your boat, better your sailing skills, be thoughtful about it don't just hop onto your ship and hope for the best, adjust your kit or even relocate for Xanadians.

 

Lastly what would we be left with if we start removing things like travelling? Just sitting in front of a forge grinding some skills all day long? Or brushing horses, tending fields? If player time is concerned why not better yet lower the grind time through action duration reduction like it is on Epic, and faster skillgain, instead of allowing players to get stuff instantly on their deed.

 

If this is something that only some players enjoy then let the AH act as a transportation broker as well. If a player aquires something he can request a transportation order to his deed. If no other player takes it, he is left to do it himself.

 

2 hours ago, wipeout said:

The issue is now with personal merchants that most are used for personal storage and those that are used for trade at starting towns and the likes are left either untended or are full of junk so people stop showing up to those places and the merchants leave if players actually went to starter towns/trade deeds like they did pre mailbox and pre lets just call it economy crash where buyers disappeared back then trade chat was all about "come visit my merchant at *blah town* selling weapons of ql 80 with 90+ enchants" and the likes that where spammed around at all times and you could go to those trade towns and see people in local the game felt like thats all that was needed but now those places feel like ghost towns and most actual trade deeds have disappeared leaving only starter deeds around to do it

I played on Serenity and people kept their merchants around the main town, since anyone could get there pretty fast and they didn't want to draw too much attention to their deeds. But I remember being on freedom a couple of times and seeing those merchant stands full, however now they are as you say ghost towns.

I also played this game before WO called Mortal Online. There wasn't an AH there as far as I can remember, we usually relied on guildmates for that. Gear was mostly easy come easy go in that game anyway. But they wadded one at some point that showed all wares across the server but could only buy the ones at your current location and I remember when the population of the game was thriving there were tons of things listed. Nowdays as the population droped there are very few things listed and scattered all across the map.

During the WO time of the great merchant stalls the population was higher, and therefore number of merchant contracts was higher. I doubt it was the fact they didn't have time to travel. When there will be an AH, if the population drops there will be less stuff listed there also. And since the game will be like "press 2 buttons, here are the materials on your doorstep, and let the grinding simulator begin" I predict that then the game's population would decline pretty fast!

 

 

2 hours ago, wipeout said:

Yes at that deed where the AH npc is if he wants to purchase that npc so be it nothing that bad about it its not like bob is going to buy 10000 horses every week and most horse trade is alliance or same server anyway
A simple fix to that issue would be similar to the cancel early fee i talked about before apply a fee to any item that is vastly higher then average market price and to add ontop of that a simple check if same ip or same machine(wurm dev already knows if you play on the same machine or not) so lets say those things are in place i list my favorite horse for 10 gold via an alt and buy it for 10 gold with my main on the other side of the map now because the game saw i used the same machine/ip as to where that alt logged in from before(not current session but the past few) it charges me a 10% fee to stop that from happening and now your forced to pay a 1 gold fee you would be pissed to suddenly needing to only get back 9g on your alt
Sure you could get around that by having a friend who you dont share accounts with list the horse for you and what not but at that point it is technically a legit trade but most people would not bother to do that i think just to cross a part of the map
Another way is to simply make it impossible to buy stuff from accounts you log into be it same machine or ip address that are shared that way the only solution once again is to have a friend do it and no AH in the world in any game has a system to stop that in place so it be unfair to use that as a reason to be against it at that point ;)
 

I was more suggesting that this system implies all sorts of designing, tinkering, and now I see from your post a whole new feature that of linking multiple accounts to the same person. It is a fair reason against it, because I'd hate the devs spending all their time tinkering around with some system, that I think does nothing but lower the sandbox experience, but that's my opinion, instead of adding content or fixing stuff in the existing system.

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51 minutes ago, Idlamn said:

I was more suggesting that this system implies all sorts of designing, tinkering, and now I see from your post a whole new feature that of linking multiple accounts to the same person. It is a fair reason against it, because I'd hate the devs spending all their time tinkering around with some system, that I think does nothing but lower the sandbox experience, but that's my opinion, instead of adding content or fixing stuff in the existing system.

How does me giving a few possible idea's on how to deal with your question mean that my idea is an idea of linking all accounts together? seems like just trying to make reasons to be against it for the sake of being against it

You wanted to know how to deal with people abusing it so i gave a possible way that could be countered a way i wasnt originally even going to think of having part of my suggestion in the first place as i honestly would not care myself if a person sold an item at 10 gold and then bought it at 10 gold elsewhere if they want to do that so be it
No where in my reply to you before was i talking about linking multiple accounts to the same person what i suggested was a simple mechanic(that can already be done as the game supports part of it right now(go to wu make yourself a gm and use the gm tool to check player info)) that checks existing data to see if 2 accounts share an ip address in the past(already a feature) or same machine and if so dont let them trade this isnt some magical grand "we must link all accounts to one person" idea for that please see my post about wurm switching to a main account and adding all your toons to said main account.
That reply was purely meant for your question as to how to combat possible abuse as you tried to use that as a reason to be against the implementation of the AH so i gave you a possible way to counter said abuse

Also for this part "If this is something that only some players enjoy then let the AH act as a transportation broker as well. If a player aquires something he can request a transportation order to his deed. If no other player takes it, he is left to do it himself."
We have wagoneers for bulk items if you are hooked up tot he highway system but it would be a nice addon yes that if you purchase something and you want someone else to deliver it that you can put up a transportation order and people can pick it up to deliver it to the required deed that indeed would be a nice thing to have(especially in the sense of boats and the likes as then you could just leave the boat where you parked it and you can either pick it up yourself or let someone else drive it to your place)

I really get that you yourself do not like the AH idea because in your mind you fear that it will take away the aspect of wurm that you like i get that but the AH keeps being brought up time and time again year after year multiple times per year every topic about wurm's economy collapsing more and more there are a few who bring up the AH and every time a post gets made because of it by a multitude of people some are old time players some are newer ones and it shows there is a desire in the wurm community to have an AH in wurm
And yes it might take some parts away slightly but if your biggest fear is a lack of travel make any item that does not fit in a mailbox be limited to that AH for pickup even though you see it listed on a different AH unless the 2 AH npc's that are part of the deeds are connected by wagoneer then you get the option to get it transported at a extra cost to the current AH that way you still encourage travel between AH's on different servers and you still encourage local trade as well and encourages people to make highways even more so, and thus you get the best of both

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1 hour ago, wipeout said:

How does me giving a few possible idea's on how to deal with your question mean that my idea is an idea of linking all accounts together? seems like just trying to make reasons to be against it for the sake of being against it

I didn't mean to say your whole ideea was about that but rather bring that as an example that this system will pose some complex challenges. Complex challenges woul in turn either mean more development time or possible problems that might later surface.

Linking multiple accounts is a new project in of itself as it might mean more than simply using the ip address. A user can have multiple ip addresses when using different devices or multiple users can share the same computer in a home.

 

You must see dev time as a chance to see the game grow. If it's something very complex, you can end up with the scenario that after 6 months or however long the dev cycle for a big update is, the players are getting just a system they can press a few buttons on and solves some inconveniances for some players. If after that there are also people abusing it in whatever contorted way, then that would mean everyone will be dissatisfied with this new feature or at least the way it was handled.

 

1 hour ago, wipeout said:

I really get that you yourself do not like the AH idea because in your mind you fear that it will take away the aspect of wurm that you like i get that but the AH keeps being brought up time and time again year after year multiple times per year every topic about wurm's economy collapsing more and more there are a few who bring up the AH and every time a post gets made because of it by a multitude of people some are old time players some are newer ones and it shows there is a desire in the wurm community to have an AH in wurm

Yeah I don't like the AH facility. But I don't like it because it affects the sandbox element. And not slightly, as you mentioned, but greatly! And there are other players who don't, and some have already expressed that here.

Maybe this game was not meant to be played like that - with all those faiclities. Maybe if you facilitate everything then there is nothing left to do in the game, or the things that you do are so outdated people will start looking for them in other MMOs.

If that would come up to be the case, then don't you think all players will be left with an unsatisfying game?

 

It's not that I have anything against AHs, I like them in games such as LotRO where crafted items were really secondary features. I liked it in EVE but that game was designed with it. I never liked it in RS and never will do even with the trade worlds or whatever, because I feel it took a lot out of the game. And that game (OSRS I mean) has lots of other features. I have nothing against the concept.

And I think "collapsing" is a very harsh word for the WO economy.

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3 hours ago, Idlamn said:

I didn't mean to say your whole ideea was about that but rather bring that as an example that this system will pose some complex challenges. Complex challenges woul in turn either mean more development time or possible problems that might later surface.

Linking multiple accounts is a new project in of itself as it might mean more than simply using the ip address. A user can have multiple ip addresses when using different devices or multiple users can share the same computer in a home.

Well just to put it here
The ingame tools that gm's have access to can already list what account comes from what ip
BmRvwdl.png
And as you can see a search by email can be done too so a combination of email+ip+device id and if 2 or more are true in the last while then dont let it and i know people can share same pc at home but if i wanted to trade with my mom i wouldnt really need to use an AH now at uni i can see that ya shared ip is an issue but then again email would be unique still
And when steam gets added steam_ID can be used as well as a unique identifier to see if its same person or different person for those on the steam servers

There are a few ways beyond ip alone that wurm has access to that they could potentially use to counter alt abuse to transfer items via AH be it a tax on AH purchases be it a minimum timer on AH listings be it disallowing trade if 2 or more(email+id+device id) of the previously mentioned ids are the the same or just letting it be

And i get the AH itself is a complex challenge but it could potentially end up becoming something really nice and honestly if my java wasnt so bad/rusty id make a wu mod just to create it and show how it would work and then repost this topic again with ingame screenshots just to show it in a more clear way of what i imagine it to be like

Anyway you might have missed it before in my walls of text but what about if the AH doesnt ship items unless you pay for wagoneer shipping/mailbox cost ontop(at that point its the same as normal trade for mailbox between player and player) and thus one would still need to travel to a different server to pickup goods from different AH's even though you can purchase from all as then you could add in the whole service of getting someone to deliver it to you by then making a shipping order thing idk that idea would really need some more thinking to flesh out more but it would limit the "i can go to tap dance and purchase 100k bricks from xanadu instantly and pick them up from tap dance AH npc in chunks" replace tap dance with what ever trader deed/starter town you would go to

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