Sign in to follow this  
Amata

Takers Gonna Take...

Recommended Posts

Hi everyone, I'm a mayor of a relatively new deed on Independence... and I've got a bit of a "fool me once..." situation.

What I Want: Some feedback based on in-game experiences, as well as personal play style commentary. Discussion with and between Wurm players. Honesty.

What I DO NOT Need To Be Told: how permissions function, how to use permissions, technical aspects and how-to's. That I'm a stupid girl. That I'm naive. That I need to L2P. No grandstanding or hating. 

Some Background
I deeded a large swath of land. It's basically a rectangle longer than it is tall, that occupies most of a relatively steep hillside. The land includes a ton of trees, bushes, an entire mine, and even part of a highway. I have plans for all the space I took, and intend to work on this deed (and stick around on WO) long-term. 

Knowing that deeding this land will take away access to a bunch of previously free resources (wood, ore, food, mobs in the forest, etc) from the established locals... I deliberately set non-citizen permissions on deed for harvesting resources. In order to allow this level of access, it is necessary to also allow pick-up privileges. This is especially for trees and ore - resources that don't automatically go into your inventory, and require you to pick them up after gathering. 

I put a LOT of thought into this decision, and I knew how risky this level of permission - for basically anyone - would be.

Where I'm Coming From:
Despite the risk, I felt that it was (is) important to be a positive addition to my neighborhood. My deed is also very close to a newbie spawn point - so I also wanted new players venturing out for the first time to be able to use forage & botany, etc. Part of why I felt comfortable deeding so much land was that, from the very start, the build I intend to create on this land is based on a kinda idealized version of an old English estate (very idealized, lol) - where someone owns the land and is technically in  charge, but the lands are accessible to the locals for farming, building their own homes as tenants, setting up a local market or town square to socialize, using the land & water resources for hunting, fishing, etc. Ultimately, I simply wanted to be neighborly, to play fairly, and to keep other's enjoyment of the game in mind. 

The Situation:
As I have been building and gathering resources, things have been.... going missing. This is happening in areas that are noticeably "in-progress" and obviously on someone's deed. I have been building very methodically and keeping resources clustered together, to avoid the appearance of this stuff having been abandoned in the middle of nowhere. Anything that is able to be "secured" has been planted. But I'm not perfect, and some things end up simply dumped in a pile, or are otherwise loose - especially when there are times that I've needed to log off in a hurry. 

First it was a barrel of nails. Fairly low quality and easy to replace. Then there was a barrel of ribbons. Again, pretty low quality and I simply replaced them and the barrel. The most recent was a large barrel full of water (I haven't built a well yet). Obviously, again, not such a deal - I'll replace the large barrel and I'm not dying of thirst. Anything else that has "wandered off" has been mostly incidental, some jars of milk and cooking oil, a stack of grass or dirt or planks. Nothing really unfortunate... yet. 

I do have areas that are fenced in and behind locks: my horses and work animals, my food and fields, my cart of major supplies and tools. But I'm more concerned by the overall pattern being established here. Will the person(s) making visits to "borrow" from me eventually decide to bash down a fence and take my sheep? Or horses? Due to limitations beyond my control, some areas that I'm using are on perimeter instead of on deed. I would have simply deeded more, but there are reasons that this is not an option. And even if that never happens... will I always be plagued by ongoing petty theft in return for my attempts to be accessible and neighborly? 

The Bottom Line:
I knew that something like this was a risk when I set the permissions the way that I did. Now that I have new information (in-game experience) - should  I re-evaluate my earlier decision to allow general access to resources on-deed? Should I restrict non-citizen access, and come up with some other way to provide free resources and materials to my neighbors and the occasional traveler? What would that look like? How can I make that happen? Will these incidents escalate, or is this just a minor annoyance that isn't worth making any changes over? Is there a general consensus among Wurmians about resource access & etiquette? In terms of "Wurniam ethics," am I doing something abnormal, or is the "thief" the aberration? 

Ultimately: at what point does this cross a line and I need to tighten my permissions - if ever? 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a large deeded area too, and I only allow certain people access to anything. I play on a PvP server for the most part, so I may have a different perspective, but even if somebody's way outside of my deed and perimeter boundaries I will still "punish" them if I feel they are taking more liberties than I feel like they should have.

You own the land. You can do whatever you want with it. That is how I remember Freedom.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If people in your area are going to be inconsiderate and take items that don't belong to them I would highly advise removing the permissions. Wurm is so vast that all the resources that could be gathered on your deed could be gathered elsewhere. So by removing the perms you aren't doing anything wrong. Just protecting your investment. If you plan on keeping the permissions the same, then I would suggest just making sure you keep everything under lock and key. Make sure it's either inside of a house or inside of a fenced off area. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Interesting post. In my country there is a proverb "Each generosity will receive punishment". Sadly, that is not completely untrue.

Quote

Is there a general consensus among Wurmians about resource access & etiquette?

No. There have been endless debates over "deed it or lose it" when deeds were planted just for scavenging and abusing, and there is no conclusion. Some hold that an ###### is an ######, others fiercely defend the right of any ###### to be an ######.

 

Best you can do is securing everything that is dear for you, in houses and walls/fences, behind locked gates and doors, only open to good friends, allies, known people. Maybe leave the rest of a large area open as it is now, and don't care about losses there. Listen to feedback, especially positive feedback. If there is none, or even scolding and outrageous behaviour, tighten the rules. I do not know the area well enough to say more.

 

Edit: lolz the ### # for the exudation exit 😎

Edited by Ekcin
little joke

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A few things in play here, but primarily you stated it's near a spawn. I'm guessing you deeded near Haven's Landing. This area is high in newbies, and honestly they simply may not know. 

 

I have a huge deed in an area that sees a lot of traffic. I do not allow any pick up perms. There will always be that one (or ten) person who will take whatever they can. There is plenty of open land all around. You don't need to feel guilty protecting what is yours (via deeding).

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a deed (The Mermaid's Cove U17 Deliverance) where I have 3 different categories of horses:  5 speeds to sell, 4-speeds to give away free and pet horses for me to keep.  I manage this in the following way:

  • Leading is enabled on deed, allowing anyone to lead any horse.
  • 5-speeds are locked in pens and the keys to these pens are placed on a merchant
  • 4-speeds are in large fields - the gates are locked but set to Freedom Kingdom access - meaning any players can go in and take them, but trolls can't get in
  • pet horses are in another field, with locked gates but no access for anyone except villagers

This enables me to have 3 different types of access just by using locked gates.   You could do the same with your resources - set Kingdom Freedom access on the gates for those areas where you don't mind things being removed (e.g. orchards / logs), but keep your own stuff in a locked area with only villager access on the gates (e.g ribbons / nails)

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sarcasm Skatyna is the lowest form of wit and not what she needs to hear just now. Sounds like Amata wanted to give back to the community and there is nothing wrong wiht that. Your post wasn't helpful. As Muse said, sort out the areas you don't mind being accessed by everyone but keep your stuff behind locked gates,. Sounds like you ahven't lost too much but I would change perms soon.... gl as I live in that area too

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You seem like a very generous and considerate person. Unfortunately, not every player is of a like mind. Many will take what they can get without a second thought. Belongings scattered on a deed with pickup permissions enabled is just an invitation to take, take, take.

 

What I have seen some players do is plant chests or BSBs offdeed with free resources. Chests of free newbie tools, BSBs of ore or sprouts, to help players in need. Yes, this means they cannot perform actions on your deed, but at least they have some access to the resources. 
 

I would advise locking down your deed permissions ASAP, because GMs will likely not rule in your favor if something valuable goes missing. If the permissions are set to allow it, it’s fair game. Good luck! 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

If somebody dig/mine they should be able to pick up as long as they stay within range even without pick up perms, or i am wrong on this ?

 

EDIT: If you want to stay calm disable all perms for non citizens. When you learn more you'll be able set them as you want without much worries.

Edited by Martynas5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
Quote

My deed is also very close to a newbie spawn point

That could be the main source of the problem.

 

Some people just try a game, make an account fast, go out the newbie area, see some barrels or ther things, then try to take it, etc.

 

They could not even know that they are doing something wrong. Especially if area is opened, they can miss info in event window, about entering a deed.

 

Ofc I do not negate possibility that it's just some player that is stealing from you.

Edited by Wilczan
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you want to still share, you can do mine iron(they can still pick up if they mined it.) disable everything else that could be harmful. There are some settings that are pretty harmless to let them have.

Breed(maybe),Groom, Milk, dig resources(clay, etc), Tend, Harvest Fruit, Cut Grass, Pick Sprouts, Forage, Drop, Repair, Butcher(maybe), Mine iron, mine other veins, , 

 

Use your perimeter as the area where they can cut trees and you provide things for them.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For those individuals in your local that you were concerned about the impact on the "established locals" I would suggest the option of developing individual perm sets for them, would allow you to tighten up the perms for random passersby but still keep the resources available as you originally desired.  Just another option, and I applaud your desire to accept the risks inherent with opening access like this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I see a trend here of assuming "thieves" are taking things that belong to them. Playing Devil's Advocate here let me give you another option to consider.

 

Ruin Hunters: Many people travel around servers looking for abandoned deeds to loot. It is a passtime of many that when a deed drops people descend on it like vultures to pick over the remains. A lot of good things can be found for those who reach it, such as bsbs full of bulk, fsbs with veggies, rare gear, drake pieces, scale sets, magical chests... you name it. Although people have mixed feelings about these "opportunists" it is well known and accepted that the "deed it or loose it" concept applies. Many of these people also explore servers looking for places to see or ruins to find when nothing has dropped. It is very likely one of these players might have come across your deed, found a nice barrel full of nails, and picked it up without even knowing the place was deeded, given the deed message is a rather hard to see message on the events window mixed in with the many other events running in through Wurm sends you.

 

Random Opportunist: I consider myself to fall in this group. Suppose I am sailing to Chaos, or maybe doing an order delivery, or maybe hunting for combat skill, and in the distance I see what looks like a ruin (deeds being constructed often look very similar to a ruin to the inexperienced) or abandoned deed. This ruin has visible containers I can see from a distance. Perhaps bsbs, barrels, chests... So I head there and check all these containers to see if there is anything left behind of value. I find an empty, unplanted bsb, or an enchanted long sword? You better believe I am picking that up.

 

Many people make a living out of sorting through other player's discarded stuff. Given the "deed it or loose it" mentality, people have become used to just keeping their permissions set to not allow strangers to take their valuables. If you still feel the need to allow others to pick up items on your deed, then consider using gates, buildings and locked containers to your advantage. There is no reason to use a barrel to store nails when you can use a locked bsb or a crate inside a locked cart to hold your valuables.

 

I suggest you remove public permissions on your deed. It is not "theft" when your specifically grant people the right to take your stuff. Imagine putting a barrel with peanuts front of your restaurant with a scoop and paper bags available, and then trying to prosecute people when they help themselves to your peanuts. Wurm servers are vast and very lightly populated. Any player can just walk an extra 50 tiles and cut the same type of tree there.

 

Edited by Angelklaine
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you leave the permissions as they are now, people will constantly take things (it's not stealing since you allowed it) and you have absolutely zero recourse to recover anything valuable.

 

The purpose of a deed is security. You don't owe access to the deed or anything on it to anybody else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Beanbag said:

If you leave the permissions as they are now, people will constantly take things (it's not stealing since you allowed it) and you have absolutely zero recourse to recover anything valuable.

 

The purpose of a deed is security. You don't owe access to the deed or anything on it to anybody else.

She knows this. She is looking for the opinion of others and a view on our culture as a whole. Better understanding on why Wurm players do what they do would help her decide how to act moving forward.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Did you deed over a preexisting "community" mine, and/or are these the only trees left that new players have easy access to? If it is trees, just plant a ton of sprouts in your perimeter where new players already have permissions to harvest. If it was a community mine that you deeded over, maybe consider using your more advanced skills to open a new community mine, off your property or (again) in your perimeter if you want new players to have access (but not to deed over it). Or, you could have an offdeed portion of the mine where they are free to dig for ore, but restrict it ondeed. You can also build a "public house" in your perimeter where you set more open permissions on the house, and perhaps leave whatever raw resources it is you had wanted to "share". This might include a secured BSB with low quality raw ores or raw logs, or maybe a small kitchen area with some excess food stuffs they can use to cook meals. You'll have to keep the house repaired, but maybe some new players will offer to help maintain it.

You could also try to involve yourself in the neighborhood by announcing you are going to set up a new community mine and/or public tree farm for anyone to access, asking if anyone else wants to join to help with the project. I suspect a large number of veterans would jump at the chance to volunteer their services for such a very worthy cause. Many would probably volunteer to help replant trees in the area, donate hundreds of sprouts, prospect for ores in a new mine, etc. Especially if it is for the Haven area, as most veterans want new players to be able to have easy access to resources. Perhaps if Haven area is indeed running out of local resources for the new players, some veteran players can help dig out new mining and tree harvesting areas on the haven deed itself, if that is a larger project than you feel you want to take on. Are the mining and tree cutting areas on Haven already used up?

Now might also be a good time to consider whether you want to be having a supersized deed right in the new player area, which is bound to lead to conflicts over limited resources There are probably some excellent areas these days where you can deed as much land as you want without worrying about whether anyone will care how much you claimed. Is this an area you are very much committed to, or are you finding yourself feeling stressed over the locatin you selected? It's never too late to reconsider what area will make you happy, and not feeling stressed and cross.



Edited by Brash_Endeavors

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow - thanks to everyone for such good responses! I very much appreciate your feedback and perspectives 😄

To address a couple points, real quick:
 

19 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

It is not "theft" when your specifically grant people the right to take your stuff


Yeah, I know this - I used that language for convenience's sake while writing up the post... probably could have better used "opportunist" instead. Also, thank you for taking the time to discuss ruin hunters vs random opportunists - that's some really great Wurmian detail (makes this anthropologist super happy).

 

15 hours ago, Brash_Endeavors said:

Did you deed over a preexisting "community" mine, and/or are these the only trees left that new players have easy access to?

 

Actually... nope. I talked to the locals before deeding the area to ensure that the land & resources weren't already part of somebody else's expansion plans or community project. And you're very good to remind me of this - there really are a ton of resources readily available just about everywhere. There are free resources and public mines much closer and more accessible to the newbie area, too... Your comments honestly made me think a bit over my own habit of being overly apologetic for taking up space (real or virtual) - a by-product of a lifetime of being expected by "norms" to be small and accommodating. Very interesting! I could probably be a little more confident about owning things that I want unapologetically. 

 

20 hours ago, Ohana said:

If you want to still share, you can do mine iron(they can still pick up if they mined it.) 

 

This is the concept of "proximity ownership" right? Thank you very much for clarifying... I asked about this in-game when I was setting up the permissions, but I was told either "I don't know" or "no, you have to enable pick up permissions too." So this is, at least for now, very much the way I'm going right now - I can remove pick up permissions from non-citizens while still allowing for people to collect the ore they mine, the logs they cut down, etc. 

 

And, in general, I have listened to everyone's discussion of the various ways to approach community life in Wurm. I already have a couple areas that are fenced and locked - and I do plan to use more of that going forward - plus, I am now planning to add some public places in perimeter areas with secured bins full of freebie resources, that I will keep stocked and in good repair. That very much appeals to my sense of hospitality (a real-world family tradition). 



Thanks again and see you in Wurm, 

Amata
Lady of Havensfield, 
Independence

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm glad you liked it. Understanding the community is the first step to being a good neighbor. Don't feel bad about deeding over places that are not taken. Its good to ask people around you if its okay to avoid future inconveniences, but don't give away your deed ownership rights. Everyone else understands :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would advice not to drop stuff on the ground any more. For example keep those barrels in a cart (perhaps also replace what barrels you can with crates), if your current cart is generally too full then perhaps make a second one, or see if you can get a wagon. Store most of your stuff behind locks, for example inside houses with actual doors, that way you can manage access to the house, thus everybody having pickup rights isn't an issue then. Large chests outside of course work fine as well as long as you lock them, since you can then set who can access them. Also make sure your carts are locked, with their permissions set, so only you can manage their inventory.

 

There's always some bad apples out there who will try to take anything they can, but with the above, combined with securing everything that can be secured (which you were already doing) you should be fine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this