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Are damage and decay strong enough to sustain a healthy economy?

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On 5/9/2020 at 4:01 PM, Wargasm said:

+1 To increased decay of offdeed walls and buildings.

I agree to some extent if it comes to fences and walls, especially stone walls which have an insanely long decaying time. I am not that sure, though, about buildings. Not only that functional buildings like mob shelters in the wild are sensible (I loved them as a low level explorer and traveller), the beginners's shacks are, too. Here, the different decay of stone vs. wood buildings guaranteees, to some extent, that the landscape is not extremely littered. Too much decay, even to present new users (the decay after 3mths of absence is well and nicely working) would drive away people, and have new users in a hopeless struggle against the demise of their squatter shacks and pens.

 

All has been said about the additional chores created by item decay and attrition. Nothing is more frustration than seeing the possessions and tools crumbling which can be studied on the still insanely exaggerated decay of fishing nets, and clay items. The latter made me deeply hate pottery (though I raised my skill beyond 90), at least until I could store that intermediate product in LMC.

 

Economic interactions in Wurm are at a pre-medieval stage, and will stay so. Trade and division of labour are happening on the borders of settlements and alliances to a limited extent, while the core economy and production is and stays self-sufficient and, beyond that, often based on friendship. alliances, and temporary cooperation, e.g. in common infrastructure works where tools are frequently re-improved for others by the higher skilled crafters, cooks bring food etc. 

 

The most important economic resource, as wipeout and Flubb convincingly described, is time, not silver. And lifetime, also disposable time for the game, cannot be saved, amassed, or hoarded, but is distributed unevenly, though.

 

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I cant see increasing boat decay rates. I have several boats off deed and I have to stay on top of them because they decay fast as hell. Most are at 50ql or above. I have seen one take as high as 20 damage in less than 2 weeks. The average is about 5% a week but it varies a lot. I know for a fact if they are not imped and repaired they wouldn't last 6 months much less a year.

 

For off deed buildings I don't think the decay needs to be increased either. They need to look into why some buildings off deed take very little decay even after their owner has been logged off for 3 months and longer fix that first. If we ramp decay as a solution for those buildings then I can only imagine how sucky it will be for the ones that are actually working correctly. Myself I want to see less decay so maybe we can actually use things like weapon, shield, bow, armor, fishing pole racks. I don't know about the rest of you but it sucks having to imp your weapons up solely because you used the proper storage rack for them while in between use.

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1 hour ago, Evilvision said:

I cant see increasing boat decay rates. I have several boats off deed and I have to stay on top of them because they decay fast as hell. Most are at 50ql or above. I have seen one take as high as 20 damage in less than 2 weeks. The average is about 5% a week but it varies a lot. I know for a fact if they are not imped and repaired they wouldn't last 6 months much less a year.

 

For off deed buildings I don't think the decay needs to be increased either. They need to look into why some buildings off deed take very little decay even after their owner has been logged off for 3 months and longer fix that first. If we ramp decay as a solution for those buildings then I can only imagine how sucky it will be for the ones that are actually working correctly. Myself I want to see less decay so maybe we can actually use things like weapon, shield, bow, armor, fishing pole racks. I don't know about the rest of you but it sucks having to imp your weapons up solely because you used the proper storage rack for them while in between use.

interesting view in this thread now, good question... if it's a storage mechanism, sorting one... or just purely decorative random item holding something providing nothing but er.. looks

We can probably.. rune the container for -10% decay rune... but... that's 'cheating', do containers actually provide any protection at all... after the matrioshka code was nerfed?

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I really don't see why we don't have an option such as in other MMO's called "Vacation Mode'. It's a way to ensure your items and work are protected while taking a small break.

 

Wurm is chore intensive when maintaning a deed, taking care of horses, tending crops, etc.

 

Something like ensuring a level or protectionism for certain items would be great to make the difference between quitting players and those taking a break.

Even if it's just a drop down menu or part of the permission system, an option that looks like "Mark boat for slow decay for 1 year" would be a great value to the game. It would mean that your work is still there in a year, you satisfy a customer/player and generally offer people a way to distinguish items meant for decay from items meant for preservation.

 

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Warden rune.

 

Cost - xxxx marks / x silver

 

Attach a rune to any item or vehicle to prevent it's decay completely, while on a deed.

 

Additionally slow down decay of item/vehicle by 50% while not on a deed.

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Some interesting views,

 

As a newer player I feel atm the decay and damage rate seems fine, my repair skill is low and my items take a hit when i use them often.

 

I feel there needs to be a kick start to the economy, it feels again that I missed the boat by joining late to carve out a trading skill to make some silvers and find my best bet is to forage for coins or just buy them from the online store. 

 

So I think the suggestion of new items or a second system is quite interesting.

 

How about a new Kingdom work order system, the starter towns could have a work order message board with jobs that need to be completed for the kingdom , orders from the king that rewards you a new currency "kingdom coins"  these coins can only be traded in the new Kingdom  Shop, that allows you to buy new recipes   the recipes that you buy from there can be traded. This system is already in game with the drop cooking recipes that can only be made if the recipe is learnt.

 

This I think could create the demand for items, a long term player who has his deed finished may want the new recipe for his BS skill, but doesn't want to invest the time making bricks for the current Kingdom work order So would want to buy them, this would create demand that new players could fill, My first wurm job was to make rivets and it was great as it improved my black smith skill while earning a few silver to help pay for a few needed items,  to keep things moving and not going stale, just add new recipes that can be bought. Also due to the time demands of earning kingdom Coins 1 player couldn't just  buy all the recipes, so different new recipes would be spread out among different players giving everyone the chance to make the silver back invested. 

 

The system could be set up sort of like a role-play thing too, So for example The king decides he wants to build a new castle, the work orders would be for the mats needed for said castle + items for the inside. next time it could be to kit out his army, so the orders would be for swords / shields / Armour you get the idea. 

 

I think something like that would help the economy more than forcing people to go and get items imp'ed, what happens if the demand is more than supply, the supplies would maybe help friends first, but the likes of myself who is new would have to pay over the odds to get my items imp'd back up or wait or go back to using and imp'ing my own tools, which defeats the object of the extra damage / decay as I wouldn't be trading, I would be doing it myself.

 

With regards junk on the server, after a set amount of time not logged in say  a month or so  off deed / outside of buildings items like bsb, fsb, chest etc have the locks decay fast when the locks decay off means we can remove the junk from the server, do the same with boats and carts. So if you want an off deed BsB and you maybe going to be away for a few weeks you would need to add a HG lock, if not you run the risk of it failing.

Edited by Badvoc
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1 hour ago, Badvoc said:

Some interesting views,

 

As a newer player I feel atm the decay and damage rate seems fine, my repair skill is low and my items take a hit when i use them often.

 

I feel there needs to be a kick start to the economy, it feels again that I missed the boat by joining late to carve out a trading skill to make some silvers and find my best bet is to forage for coins or just buy them from the online store. 

 

So I think the suggestion of new items or a second system is quite interesting.

 

How about a new Kingdom work order system, the starter towns could have a work order message board with jobs that need to be completed for the kingdom , orders from the king that rewards you a new currency "kingdom coins"  these coins can only be traded in the new Kingdom  Shop, that allows you to buy new recipes   the recipes that you buy from there can be traded. This system is already in game with the drop cooking recipes that can only be made if the recipe is learnt.

 

This I think could create the demand for items, a long term player who has his deed finished may want the new recipe for his BS skill, but doesn't want to invest the time making bricks for the current Kingdom work order So would want to buy them, this would create demand that new players could fill, My first wurm job was to make rivets and it was great as it improved my black smith skill while earning a few silver to help pay for a few needed items,  to keep things moving and not going stale, just add new recipes that can be bought. Also due to the time demands of earning kingdom Coins 1 player couldn't just  buy all the recipes, so different new recipes would be spread out among different players giving everyone the chance to make the silver back invested. 

 

The system could be set up sort of like a role-play thing too, So for example The king decides he wants to build a new castle, the work orders would be for the mats needed for said castle + items for the inside. next time it could be to kit out his army, so the orders would be for swords / shields / Armour you get the idea. 

 

I think something like that would help the economy more than forcing people to go and get items imp'ed, what happens if the demand is more than supply, the supplies would maybe help friends first, but the likes of myself who is new would have to pay over the odds to get my items imp'd back up or wait or go back to using and imp'ing my own tools, which defeats the object of the extra damage / decay as I wouldn't be trading, I would be doing it myself.

 

With regards junk on the server, after a set amount of time not logged in say  a month or so  off deed / outside of buildings items like bsb, fsb, chest etc have the locks decay fast when the locks decay off means we can remove the junk from the server, do the same with boats and carts. So if you want an off deed BsB and you maybe going to be away for a few weeks you would need to add a HG lock, if not you run the risk of it failing.

 

How about posting something like this in the Suggestions section, Badvoc?

It's an interesting new idea from fresh eyes, in my opinion.

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@BadvocThere's no 'coming late' to the party.. when the game is this old... there are years and years of hoarding and grinding skills, some skills took years to get to 100.. for some to name them, you can't expect to come and just be awesome or shine on the market with anything... you just give in.. grind a bit and you make a spot on the playground for yourself.

 

What second system? 🙄

That's pretty much \w the rp shenanigans... what we have as deity missions.. but they give just karma and sb, instead of 24/7 chaining the art 'team' to work for new skins on existing items.. and having somebody rewrite crafting system into something like cooking to have all sorts of new hammers/mallets/knives and so on..

 

Idea is good.. but if you think you have chance with no skill.. vs somebody with 90+ skill.. you're WRONG, you'll have to earn your spot, a 90/+ will always be in times faster and more efficient than you are, to get 'even' you have to get to his/her level and allow yourself to compete at the same rate.  Can we nerf that... we can... in a really stupid way with rng... making random people get random cool stuff ignoring skill alltogether.. than we'll all run 10-20-30+ alts all day and do something or wait for rng personal mission to appear to collect the cool stuff - is that a good idea? - don't think so...

 

We already after years of 'begging' for it.. barely got a few skins for items with the jackal server content, which is not recipes.. but skins.. yet provides the same thing more or less.. go do this.. and get that points.. to spend on a recipe skin of your choice, sounds familiar?

 

Problem with implementing new overpowering or unique gear is.. old ones will be kind of obsolete.. which is usually how economy works... old sh.. gets tossed and you move on to the better... which in terms of generating new content.. could put a hold on hoarding.. but new items are quite fast and easy to make in bulk usually, it's wurm.. ppl spam stuff, it's in the nature of the playstyle that all adopted through the years. 

 

Are we changing topic from decay boost needed or not to economy buff ideas btw?

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@FinnnI understand what your saying, but after starting around 2 months ago after seeing the steam listing and searching about wurm to find it was already released, to see it was years old it was a little off putting to be honest.

I don't have years of knowledge about wurm and can only say and suggest based on my short time here and how I see things as a new player.

 

 

27 minutes ago, Finnn said:

Are we changing topic from decay boost needed or not to economy buff ideas btw?

 

The topic is about ( imo ),  is currant decay / damage strong enough to keep a healthy economy and that led to an off shoot of better ideas to improve the economy, like most things the thread evolved a little from the first post.

 

But to answer that question, imo as a new player decay and damage is fine as is, apart from the few abandoned items that clutter up the servers. I don't think decay or damage will have any effect on the economy, or should I say large enough effect to be worth the problems of upsetting large amounts of the player base or putting new players off. If the damage and decay increased I could see many new people not bothering, I know I would rethink if more of my fun time had to be spent on another "upkeep" item.

 

I started the same  time with 4 other new people, I was excited as it seemed this game was alive and well, within an hour it was 3. 

 

fast forward 2 months and none of the people I started with that night are left, one of the complaints was a feeling of uselessness, a feeling of coming to the party way to late, for me thats not a problem as I mainly want to explore the deed design now, but at the start being told there is no market for low level items or any "item sink" for them was a disappointment and maybe could be a reason why many don't stick around.

 

But when you have a goal or a reason the game is much more fun. I helped on a couple of projects at ruin ridge farm, making bricks for them or digging the new mine, it felt good as there was a purpose for it, making 4000 rivets I also found fun as it was paid work and give me the chance to buy a better item.  I don't expect to come to the game and be fantastic or shine and lets be fair reading on the history of wurm theres more than one account that has changed hands over the years keeping higher levels in game when if account trading wasnt a thing some of these accounts would be gone, but thats getting off subject, I also suspect from reading the history more than one older player has a ton of silver saved from trader draining, any ideas that gets the silver flowing downwards and then around would be a good thing. 

 

There has to be balance and has to be a place for the newer players to feel useful or newer players wont stick around, without new blood wont need an economy.

 

 

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The ways to improve said economy have many forms, but I believe taking other games and models as examples can be a good way to move forward. Most MMOs have auction houses and virtual marketplaces to facilitate transactions. Mailboxes in Wurm are an example of faster and easier transactions. Without which the sale of tools, weapons, armor, etc, would be relegated to local markets, if at all. Wurm could provide something similar for bulk orders and services such as a bulletin in which you post your desired transaction and drop-off location. Screw the current system of "trusting" people to uphold their end of the bargain in an exchange; it will not scale well with the Steam release at all and the only reason it has gone relatively fine thus far is because of the smaller population of Wurm being easier to manage.

 

I think I can agree that there needs to be some changes to encourage a more lively economy. Newer players need a way to participate and provide services with their fledgling skills that more established players are less motivated or able to do.  This could be done by making the production of high quality goods intrinsic with that of lower quality materials. Take Albion Online for example: to craft the materials of a desired tier, you require 3 parts raw materials of that tier, and 1 part material of a lower tier. This format continues across the line so that even the lowest tier of material still retains some worth because it is tied with the production of higher quality materials.

 

Of course, Albion is a very PvP-focused game where items have a chance to become destroyed upon player death. So the lack of consumption or decay of items is pretty high. Perhaps Wurm could take a similar approach; much like how priests forgo the ability to imp in favor of casting spells, so could players be incentivized to take on a lifestyle of higher consumption and decay of items in favor of some economic incentive. It could be free premium status in exchange for higher decay rate on using items, or a chance to lose items entirely on death. One could contextualize this ingame with Wurmians coming into contact with a wild and primordial energy that increases their vigor, with a side effect being a higher rate of entropy upon their surroundings; items decaying faster; animals aging quickly; food rotting before your eyes. Or something like that.

 

At any rate, it is maybe a good alternative to making sweeping changes to the game by creating an alternative form of playing the game that does not directly impact everyone who does not wish to participate. Offering a system of incentives and reliance upon one another that naturally corrects itself.

 

My 2c.

Edited by Hoseph

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On 5/26/2020 at 12:15 PM, Hoseph said:

The ways to improve said economy have many forms, but I believe taking other games and models as examples can be a good way to move forward. Most MMOs have auction houses and virtual marketplaces to facilitate transactions. Mailboxes in Wurm are an example of faster and easier transactions. Without which the sale of tools, weapons, armor, etc, would be relegated to local markets, if at all. Wurm could provide something similar for bulk orders and services such as a bulletin in which you post your desired transaction and drop-off location. Screw the current system of "trusting" people to uphold their end of the bargain in an exchange; it will not scale well with the Steam release at all and the only reason it has gone relatively fine thus far is because of the smaller population of Wurm being easier to manage.

 

<big giant nope of a snip>


The AH idea has been throw around so often and people always say no to it for a whole array of reasons most are just silly ones or decent reasons why but often it comes down to "it will destroy the economy" well now we barely have one left as rmt destroyed the market more then any other chance before(there is a lot less trades going on a lot more sellers a lot less buyers overall)

As for your suggestion of making major changes to how wurm functions ya na thats not how you make the wurm economy work again its how you murder a game's identity item destruction in albion works as its part of its core idea where tools are replacable where nothing is unique where the t8.3's go to your guild's main pvp team and the rest gets t7-8 flats and beyond
Taking concepts of a fast paced items dont matter game and throwing it into a slow paced game like wurm would not do well at all which again is also why i stated before increasing item damage for the sake of trade isnt going to work it will only drive the casual crowd away more or those who actively grind

To really fix the economy you need a influx of players not gameplay changes a economy can not function when there are a thousand sellers and only 2 buyers who are buying nothing of those sellers
You want people to trade more? Make trading easier or increase population more with more people who are willing to travel or are willing to spend money on tools

But the best way for a small population would be an AH style setup even if you link it to needing a trader to access the AH for example(it would make sense really) it means that newer players will travel still to established places with a public trader and still interact with some even if its as little as an o/ in local when they see each other as for those established ones well we dont say much anyway when we see others half the time
Either way an AH would be best if you want the economy to grow especially if the AH has the function for players to put up buy orders that people can fulfill for example i could put up me wanting a saw of ql 95 with a certain enchant and thus set the min ql and min enchant power and what enchant i want and then its up to any smith/priest to sell that item to me vs them making an item and putting it up for sale

That way a person can either browse the currently selling with a proper search+filter or make a buy order to get their custom made item made and that will make what little trade we have a lot more public and also encourage it for others to try trading more

But end of the day you really want trade to flourish again get more people way more people as rmt is gone so that incentive of people to work hard to stock and sell a lot of tools for silver just doesnt exist anymore really add in trader deeds are gone that source of income is gone
Add in we are in a pandemic a lot of people's priority isnt to spend loads of silver on a game so when you combine all those factors wurm's economy got hit hard across the board by a multitude of factors

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ah is going to drop the prices further, if A sells something at 1s.. B will sell at 98c... C will sell at 75c and D at 20copper, whoever have more.. will just sell more.

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1 hour ago, Finnn said:

ah is going to drop the prices further, if A sells something at 1s.. B will sell at 98c... C will sell at 75c and D at 20copper, whoever have more.. will just sell more.

That would be the case right now as well anyway and it already happens anyway so thats not really a reason against it

Yes an AH makes it easier to see prices so people put up items lower to try and sell faster but in general prices on items tend to vary little look at every game with an AH out there

RS for example is a great one sure you got the oddball who puts prices lower but thats a given generally prices flow around but they dont forever do a freefall drop to nothing no one is that stupid to work for peanuts
Take the example of iron bar in OSRS current offer price 164 sell price 161
Buying high in a month 223 buying low 158
Selling high in a month 223 selling low 160

Sure prices fluctuate but they dont free fall drop and thus using that as a reason against an AH is bad as any AH that shows historical data from any game shows that prices go up and down yes but they always steady out to what players pay for them with things going up and down based on supply and demand creating an actual functioning economy vs what we kinda push on every newbie of 1000 actions = 1 silver which some people started lowering already to it being 75c or even lower like some people do of trying to buy dirt at 30-40c a k

An AH would drive prices to be more natural but it does not mean it should be the only means of trade nor would it be normal current trade would still be a thing the AH would only serve to create visibility for trade offers and demand and sure prices will change but they will line up more with what people want to offer and deliver

Here is a graph of the iron bar example but then over a year period
 NODYfmz.png

The letters refer to blog post and poll results and patch notes and the likes which are a major factor for OSRS price changes as certain events or new things will cause huge price changes in items where as in wurm that would not really be a thing

An AH sure would create a few weeks if even that of upheaval where people will do silly stuff but in the end of the day things will settle down and prices will stabilize around what we as a community as a whole will pay for it sure there will be the odd person who will sell for way less or for way more and so be it that happens now too nothing new or weird about it
So again one final time claiming that an AH will cause a free fall of prices because everyone is selling at a lower and lower and lower price is bs just look at any game that has a build in or community driven AH people set prices and others join in and in time items find their given prices

Path of exile is a great example of a player driven AH being created as it where with the trading websites sure some items lost value and others gained value but a lot of items stabilized and trade became a lot more accessible and now the devs officially run a trading site as well(granted the reason why they do it is unrelated to this)

edit:
Oh to add to prevent a free fall of prices next to common logic a lot of games have a tax on items that is part of the average price of the item that gets charged to the purchaser if an item is to far(more then 10% in most games) under the average price (and sometimes in some games to the seller) which annoys players and a lot of people dont like it but it has been shown as being a good way to deter free fall drops in the games that do it then again an true AH doesnt really need that as players end up deciding the prices they buy and sell at anyway

Edited by wipeout

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I don't recall the exact mechanics at the time but early on, after I had settled my deed, someone decided to stop by in a row boat he borrowed when I was offline and since it was not his boat, he was not able to reboard it to leave. He never came back  and I relocated the boat and it later sunk. When I built my docks I built them 1 tile outside of my claim to prevent users from being able to return to the water in a borrowed boat. That means that my own boats sit just outside of my deed too. How does that work? Extra decay because they are off deed?

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Yes, your boat will decay more off of your deed than on your deed.

 

To lessen decay, the following factors apply: (these are general factors for all decay of items)

(1) Is it on a deed?

(2) Is it in a building?

(3) Is it in a container?

 

If all three are no, then you have no factors to lessen decay except for the QL of the object (higher QL = less decay).

 

For tools not in your bank or inventory (or magic chest), you'd want all three factors above as 'yes'.

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