Darklords

PvP Discussion #1

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23 hours ago, Galatyn said:

 

"We want to reduce the number of priests needed in a fight to be viable, and as such have reduced the spell-spam effects"

 

Before a fight, locate soul provides useful vector information about the enemy.  You don't cast dirt on a person in a fight or disintegrate, which sounds pretty cool though.  If you literally want to "reduce the number of priests in a fight to be viable", then it shouldn't take so many priests casting multiple times to achieve a goal, which results in a spell spam.

Locate soul is not used in a fight either, so by your same definition it would be out of the scope of your discussion. Just like disintegrate it is used outside of a fight to potentially lead to combat. Removing a reinforcement or a vein by disintegrating so you can break into a deed is a direct combat use of a spell, more so than Locate Soul.

 

The point is that not all "spell spam" is bad and thus needs to be eliminated 

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can we turn locate into a 500 tile range pendulum

 

i just want to find people to 1v1 but i cant ever find anyone except when they're logged off and i steal their horses

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Darklords said:

Removing player counts for pvp servers is something that would require some deeper discussion between the team so I have no answer for that currently.

 

shouldnt be a hard discussion, the removal of /who and playercount on the server status page for chaos is an easy decision...

whats the cons? i only see pros

Edited by Quicktor
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2 hours ago, Quicktor said:

 

shouldnt be a hard discussion, the removal of /who and playercount on the server status page for chaos is an easy decision...

whats the cons? i only see pros

This.

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7 hours ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

can we turn locate into a 500 tile range pendulum

 

i just want to find people to 1v1 but i cant ever find anyone except when they're logged off and i steal their horses

I miss warhart :(

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, user said:

I miss warhart :(

9992398eff1c2f50c4d0db47481e95c4.jpg

he doesn't miss you 💔

Edited by Oblivionnreaver
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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

Locate soul is not used in a fight either, so by your same definition it would be out of the scope of your discussion. Just like disintegrate it is used outside of a fight to potentially lead to combat. Removing a reinforcement or a vein by disintegrating so you can break into a deed is a direct combat use of a spell, more so than Locate Soul.

 

Disintegrate was included in that same post.

2. make it much easier to remove reinforcements off deed

 

Edited by Galatyn
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On 5/6/2020 at 6:22 PM, Darklords said:
  • Healing enchants did not receive the resistance penalty changes as they require you to be doing active weapon damage to heal, and it is one of the few ways non priests can heal meaning this is open for everyone to use as an enchanted weapon. It will, however, still work off healing resistance and other methods of healing will build up the resistance faster, decreasing the effectiveness of the enchant.

 

This doesn't answer the question as to why the change doesn't apply to enchants. It just makes the distinction between enchants and a spells. The question is why does there need to be a difference in the two healing methods? Is it really just because it's not limited to priests, and the nerf was targeted specifically at priests? I struggle to understand what makes enchants exempt from the change. It has the negative of making the system harder to understand than it already is. It creates an inconsistency where it's better to be healed via life transfer than by spells.

 

On 5/6/2020 at 6:22 PM, Darklords said:
  • We did not want to nerf all spells that use casting on other players bodies with range checks from starting position, so we picked to remove the body casting on the few trouble spells from being usable on vehicles only. Heal is the intended spell to be used on moving vehicles with its long cast time.

 

Not a very compelling argument. If the goal is to make it so cure light/medium/heavy cannot be cast on vehicles, then simply add a check to the precondition method that ensures the player is not on a vehicle. If they are, decline the spell and give them a message saying "you cannot use this spell from a vehicle." It would achieve the same goal but be way more clear to the player. Instead, you've left a loophole in the game where players can use janky UI interactions to accomplish the exact thing you wanted to remove. You didn't solve the problem at all with this change. You just made it less interactive.

 

On 5/6/2020 at 6:22 PM, Darklords said:
  • Every priest (of which most people are on PvP) having tangleweave allowed non-stop casting of the spell.  While we do want to reduce spell-spam, allowing the non-stop interruption of spells as a solution is not a viable long term solution compared to limiting how useful things are to spam. Being able to block a vital spell, like heal on a dying person is not something we want to remove, but being able to block casts indefinitely seems a bit of a broken way to handle spell spam. The only counter to this would require even more priests, leaving people without tons of them extremely vulnerable to this heal/damage spam from spells.

 

Sure, I understand that's the goal. But how does the changes made to Tangleweave help here? People will be spamming spells more frequently now that less counterspell is available. There's so many better options available:

  • Add spells to Fo or Vynora that give players a shield against incoming magic damage for a certain duration. This would require the opponent to dispel the shield then cast direct damage.
  • Give shield bash a 100% chance to interrupt spell casts.
  • Make special moves inhibit the target's ability to spell cast for a certain duration.

It just feels like the way Tangleweave was nerfed didn't make a lot of sense. It felt instead like removing Tangleweave as a spell entirely, which just opens up a load of new problems that you're setting up to deal with in the near future.

 

On 5/6/2020 at 6:22 PM, Darklords said:
  • For tangleweave, going forward, how would people feel about Vynora/Libila only having tangleweave with closer to the original values to make Vyrnoa a more viable pick in PvP combat? We are also open to other ideas for making vynora a bit more feasible as a pick and not just because it's required to fill all three champ slots/enchant stuff.

 

No opinion.

 

On 5/6/2020 at 6:22 PM, Darklords said:
  • We are open to ideas for new venom effects, but removing the rng element of it makes it far too accurate, and we are not looking to go back to that at this time.

 

...

 

So... you want more RNG in combat?

 

Like... it did less damage then Frostbrand/Flaming Aura. Significantly less damage than the other enchants against almost all armor types. The compensation was that it felt better because of the increased accuracy. Now you want to backtrack and take away that increased accuracy? I mean I guess while we're at it you might as well just nerf Truehit into non-existence as well since that increases accuracy too. Nimbleness as well I guess.

 

It just doesn't make sense. This was another method by which people could get more accurate hits and smooth the RNG in combat. If it's a problem for PvP, then introduce a PvP-specific adjustment to it. There's no reason to punish players who invested in a Venom weapon on Freedom because PvP players are using it.

 

This is the one change that I am adamant should be reverted. Venom should be designed specifically around not having to deal with glance. If you need to nerf the damage, fine. But removing the only thing that made it good and enjoyable to use is unacceptable.

 

On 5/6/2020 at 6:22 PM, Darklords said:
  • We like the idea of starting and stopping boats not being instant but understand it has made stamina regen much more difficult taking up to 8+ seconds to stop than start back up again now. Some ideas to help this include reducing stamina drain when sailing overall by a pretty large amount to make stops for stamina less required in general or reducing the time it takes to slow down in half.

 

No opinion.

 

On 5/6/2020 at 6:22 PM, Darklords said:

Proposed Changes

  • Tangleweave cooldown reduced to 1 min.
  • Tangleweave cast time back to 3 seconds.
  • Tangleweave favour cost stays at 30.
  • Focused Will will receive the same as the cure spells.

 

Tangleweave can remain at a several minute cooldown if you reduce the cast time back to 3 seconds. Granted, it would help in ensuring a large number of priests do not entirely shut down spell casting for a smaller force. Favor change doesn't make much difference because gems are a thing. Make Tangleweave effective, but require intelligent usage.

 

Finally, please pick a different way to adjust Focused Will and the Cure spells. Don't make them require sifting through a character UI screen anymore. This is just another step back on what was previously progress.

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Posted (edited)

I started writing a message with suggestions about everything discussed and then I realized that all this is for nothing.. this is a useless thread made just to calm people down after the last ninja pvp patch and nothing more..

If anyone in the dev team would care about what the players think, and want, they would have these kind of discussions openly all the time including testing changes on the test server to make sure they are balanced, no matter if they are big or small changes..

 

Once again the issue is the big picture.. we keep discussing details but we don't have the big picture at all..

What are wurm team's plans for pvp in the long run ? *crickets*

Is nerfing priests by reducing the dependency on them in pvp the plan here ? You guys do realize that a lot of people are grinding faith as we speak, grinding channeling just because that's the current meta and they keep getting kicked in the throat with unannounced changed that are "small" so everyone should just deal with them.. doesn't matter you just grinded your faith for 6 months as a priest that just got nerfed.. doesn't matter if you grinded your channeling for nothing for months.. who cares... this is wild wild wurm.. I hope there's no surprise why people keep logging off and not logging back on anymore..

Edited by faty
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3 hours ago, faty said:

I started writing a message with suggestions about everything discussed and then I realized that all this is for nothing.. this is a useless thread made just to calm people down after the last ninja pvp patch and nothing more..

If anyone in the dev team would care about what the players think, and want, they would have these kind of discussions openly all the time including testing changes on the test server to make sure they are balanced, no matter if they are big or small changes..

 

Once again the issue is the big picture.. we keep discussing details but we don't have the big picture at all..

What are wurm team's plans for pvp in the long run ? *crickets*

Is nerfing priests by reducing the dependency on them in pvp the plan here ? You guys do realize that a lot of people are grinding faith as we speak, grinding channeling just because that's the current meta and they keep getting kicked in the throat with unannounced changed that are "small" so everyone should just deal with them.. doesn't matter you just grinded your faith for 6 months as a priest that just got nerfed.. doesn't matter if you grinded your channeling for nothing for months.. who cares... this is wild wild wurm.. I hope there's no surprise why people keep logging off and not logging back on anymore..

Although I agree with the sentiment, I dont think its necessarily true for Darklords. If one thing is certain about him from my experience is he loves long winded discussions and arguing until he is blue in the face, but he listens and learns from it, so I have high hopes something good will come out of this thread.

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2 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

Although I agree with the sentiment, I dont think its necessarily true for Darklords. If one thing is certain about him from my experience is he loves long winded discussions and arguing until he is blue in the face, but he listens and learns from it, so I have high hopes something good will come out of this thread.

So was Sindusk as an individual developer.. just saying..

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4 hours ago, faty said:

So was Sindusk as an individual developer.. just saying..

I believe Sindusk did many good things and was the first developer to tackle pvp head on in a very long time. Love or hate his changes, he broke the mold by doing things that for the longest time were said couldnt be done (like Libila on Freedom. How many times were we told it was impossible?). You don't have to agree with everything a specific dev does to realize they do listen to the community. Darklords is one of those people, and although I know if we were in the same pmk right now we would be yelling at each other over game mechanics, I also know he listens.

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The why was explained I highlighted it below, now I understand if you don't agree but I clearly gave the reasoning. I have a feeling people will understand a mechanic as easy as heal spells build resistance faster than heal enchants because everyone can use the enchants and there much harder to get consistent healing from because you only heal when doing damage based on the damage amount.

Quote

Healing enchants did not receive the resistance penalty changes as they require you to be doing active weapon damage to heal, and it is one of the few ways non priests can heal meaning this is open for everyone to use as an enchanted weapon. It will, however, still work off healing resistance and other methods of healing will build up the resistance faster, decreasing the effectiveness of the enchant.

.

Removing cures totally from vehicles is of course an option, if that's the route people want it to go instead we are happy to fully remove them from vehicles period it was intentionally left how it was in the old days where slowing down to cast on a specific wound was still doable but if people think it should be removed fully from vehicles that can defiantly be done. Casting on wounds does range from start checks and you cannot move more than a tile on a vehicle during its cast so it left no loophole as players need to basically fully stop to cast them which was ok with us.

 

As said we are open to ideas for completely new venom effects to replace the low glance of the nerfed version, but going back to it having 0 glance is not something the team is ok with the decision has been made there and we are unlikely to bring it back to 0% glance.

 

Shield bashing is on the table to be looked at balance wise for pvp, more on that at a later date.

 

The goal is to make the spell spam less useful in general, having most spells you cast canceled and your cast time increased on a 30 second cooldown with every priest having it is a rough balance point. There needs to be ways to cancel them but they should be used in situations you know it will have a good effect vs just stopping near every cast you can. Increasing the cast time was overkill I will admit and the plan is to return it to 3 second cast time regardless of the other changes.

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what about 5% glance

 

because venom was 5% glance due to base dr ;)

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1 hour ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

what about 5% glance

 

because venom was 5% glance due to base dr ;)

Correct but everything shares this so I do not include it when discussing the specific added glance rates for different wound types, in this case 0 addition to the 5% base glance rate everything has period.

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Make a rule against Alt / character abuse.
Nerf sickles out of PvP, it's silly.

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4 hours ago, Darklords said:

Removing cures totally from vehicles is of course an option, if that's the route people want it to go instead we are happy to fully remove them from vehicles period it was intentionally left how it was in the old days where slowing down to cast on a specific wound was still doable but if people think it should be removed fully from vehicles that can defiantly be done. Casting on wounds does range from start checks and you cannot move more than a tile on a vehicle during its cast so it left no loophole as players need to basically fully stop to cast them which was ok with us.

I do not think this is what people want. You are putting words in people's mouths. What people want is for the need to use an overly antiquated and complicated menu to heal be done with because its extremely troublesome and counterintuitive during combat. There are other ways to accomplish this in a way that allows for players to cast the spells without using the system while at the same time allowing for limiting the use of the spells during vehicle fights. For example:

 

Increase the interruption rate of spells when embarked - This was suggested long time ago. Make it so when casting players have penalties to parry or otherwise make it easier to get interrupted. You can make it so it only applies to boats and carts of the like, making it so when the player is focused it is very likely they will use the spell. This would give non casters the ability to be influential, reduces overreliance on spells during boat fights, and makes it harder to heal, while at the same time allowing players to still use the cast on body option. It penalizes lazy groups and rewards skill and tactics.

 

Increase the effectiveness of shield bash while embarked. - Self explanatory.

 

Increase healing resistance faster while embarked. - self explanatory.

 

Simply removing cures from boats is an option, but why?

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

I do not think this is what people want. You are putting words in people's mouths.

Was in direct response to this comment from Sindusk.

Quote

Not a very compelling argument. If the goal is to make it so cure light/medium/heavy cannot be cast on vehicles, then simply add a check to the precondition method that ensures the player is not on a vehicle.

 

Cure on a players body heals for pretty large amounts for the short action timer and no movement checks body casts provide.This isn't a big deal off a vehicle as you cannot move and cast those spells. Heal is the intended spell for use on vehicles in motion, cure can stay in with wound targeting because they do distance checks from the start of the action and cannot be cast while moving much which is not something we want for all body cast spells as there was only a few trouble ones. Cure spells before the priest rework worked exactly as they do now on vehicles requiring you to stop to cast the quicker heals like using cotton does. If people find an issue with it being wound casts only on vehicles the offer was just to remove that and make it only usable off vehicles totally.

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1 hour ago, Sn00 said:

Nerf sickles out of PvP, it's silly.

What is the issue with sickles? Care to elaborate a bit more?

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11 minutes ago, Darklords said:

Was in direct response to this comment from Sindusk.

 

5 hours ago, Darklords said:

Removing cures totally from vehicles is of course an option, if that's the route people want it to go

 

15 minutes ago, Darklords said:

If people find an issue with it being wound casts only on vehicles the offer was just to remove that and make it only usable off vehicles totally

"People" refers to more than just Sindusk.

 

16 minutes ago, Darklords said:

Cure on a players body heals for pretty large amounts for the short action timer and no movement checks body casts provide.This isn't a big deal off a vehicle as you cannot move and cast those spells. Heal is the intended spell for use on vehicles in motion, cure can stay in with wound targeting because they do distance checks from the start of the action and cannot be cast while moving much which is not something we want for all body cast spells as there was only a few trouble ones. Cure spells before the priest rework worked exactly as they do now on vehicles requiring you to stop to cast the quicker heals like using cotton does. If people find an issue with it being wound casts only on vehicles the offer was just to remove that and make it only usable off vehicles totally.

I agree that fast cures should be limited and that it was the way it was before and there is no problem with removing the ability to cast them - as long as you revert the sailing changes. The two HAVE to go hand in hand. Removing cures limit the survivability of the boat captain as they will have no stamina (or requires refresh spam to keep them with stamina). If you want for things to go back to the way they were, then give us back control of our boats. This timed furling and unfurling of sails was not a feature planned with pvp in mind and is causing a lot of unintended problems. Removing cures only makes that worse.

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Just now, Angelklaine said:

 

 

"People" refers to more than just Sindusk.

 

I agree that fast cures should be limited and that it was the way it was before and there is no problem with removing the ability to cast them - as long as you revert the sailing changes. The two HAVE to go hand in hand. Removing cures limit the survivability of the boat captain as they will have no stamina (or requires refresh spam to keep them with stamina). If you want for things to go back to the way they were, then give us back control of our boats. This timed furling and unfurling of sails was not a feature planned with pvp in mind and is causing a lot of unintended problems. Removing cures only makes that worse.

Was more asking for how people felt about it I apologize for not wording that better.

 

As far as boats go we are defiantly going to do something to improve the current situation the sailing changes made, I've been testing some changes to it on my local build and will let you guys know when we have a final answer on that hopefully soon.

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2 hours ago, Darklords said:

What is the issue with sickles? Care to elaborate a bit more?

 

It's the DPS it has atm. Compared to other weapons (esp one handers) it's just so good it's not worth using anything else.

It has almost the same DPS as a Huge axe and it's a one hander. The negative CR does not matter , it's still the best weapon you can have for pvp essentially.

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3 hours ago, Sn00 said:

 

It's the DPS it has atm. Compared to other weapons (esp one handers) it's just so good it's not worth using anything else.

It has almost the same DPS as a Huge axe and it's a one hander. The negative CR does not matter , it's still the best weapon you can have for pvp essentially.

I am curious. Has this been confirmed? I don't use sickles myself but I heard a lot of good things about them. Working on imping one up atm since I have better skill on it than on my sword. How's the parry on a sickle? I'll admit I am a bit ignorant on it.

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3 hours ago, Sn00 said:

 

It's the DPS it has atm. Compared to other weapons (esp one handers) it's just so good it's not worth using anything else.

It has almost the same DPS as a Huge axe and it's a one hander. The negative CR does not matter , it's still the best weapon you can have for pvp essentially.

 

 

IM SORRY YOU WOT.... M8

 

@DarklordsPlease before you take notes on this comment above i hope you are able to understand since the new changes to Armour Plate/Drake/Scale are not always used as a main in pvp now Leather/chain etc is now viable with the movement speed etc...

Also the damage types on weapons with salves etc 

 

when Sn00 or someone wearing leather / drake get slapped up the side of the face with a weapons with a salve that is better against its resistances its going to hurt. A LOT

 

The weapon doesn't need NERFING maybe a better understanding on how damages work needs to be explained the the player base.. the only reason its "the best weapons for pvp essentially" is because 90% of the pvp pop are wearing leather.

 

 

 

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I don't generally chime into these discussions, but would like to put my two bits forward.

 

Instead of fighting the 'alt abuse' issue, I think we could focus more on the intent of the accounts being used.  Regardless of the stats/skills of an account, and whether it's an alt or a main account, or any of those 'tags', we could instead focus on the intent an account is being used for.  If someone mines their way close to an enemy deed and then strongwalls/reinforces the account into a 1 tile underground location with no more purpose than to watch who moves around in local, I'd say the intent itself is a toxic one and puts a dampener on overall pvp and play of wurm for most other players.  

 

Whether that strongwalled in account has 20fs, 40fs, 95fs, or 5fs; really doesn't matter in my mind.  The account's sole purpose is to put a dampener on the local populations movements and playstyle.  The reduction of this sort of playstyle would likely increase the overall enjoyment of a pvp server for the majority of players on it.  

 

Generally if there's an instance of toxic gameplay on freedom, which results in griefing tickets, the wurm team takes all circumstances into view and usually figures out whether there is intent behind the negative gameplay and who/what is going on and takes things from there.

 

I'd say the same mindset should be used on the pvp side; if you're intentionally playing in such a way to disrupt and/or make the gameplay toxic to others, it should be looked at.  I know and understand there are very few rules on the pvp server past personal attacks and such in chat, but there's also precedent when things are taken too far, and usually there ends up being a mechanics change or simply an order to stop doing certain things that are decided to be detrimental to overall gameplay and the health of Wurm itself. 

 

We want this game to be around for a long time, even the argumentative folk usually speak out because they love Wurm and want it to get better.  Why can't we police ourselves when we can usually see something as admittedly bad for the game and just stop doing them? Whether mechanics allow or not?

 

If you look at something and wonder if it should be done, usually it shouldn't...regardless of mechanics.  I'd like to extend the idea that it's more fun to play for everyone when it doesn't get nasty and personal on either side.  Kill each other, good fight, move on for the next fight.

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