Darklords

PvP Discussion #1

Recommended Posts

5 minutes ago, user said:

Alts: I think the first thing that needs to be done is remove nonprem from Chaos all together. And do not allow new accounts to even start over there.

I think a lot of people compare this situation to the one in Epic where players can't log in on Elevation unless they are prem. Its not the same thing and this has to be considered.

 

For one, there are people who go inactive for periods of time (such as when deployed, moving, their computers die, whatever) but live permanently on Chaos. Consider the situation when someone is not active but left their access to their best friend (a pmk buddy) and now their deed is about to fall, or is being disbanded. Does this player need to return to a looted house because there was no one who could log him in and move him or his stuff? How does being non prem suddenly become the issue?

 

Non prem accounts are not really that useful on Chaos for spying since you cannot see the local list. Locking up an alt in a cave and strongwalling him in when he's not even prem does absolutely nothing. Spy alts like these have to be premmed anyways, so being non prem is not an issue.

 

The only way you'll get rid of alts in caves is by limiting what a prem account sees while being in a cave. Alts don't have a marker that says "hey! I'm an alt".Taking the same approach as on Epic is an option, and adding a timer to karma when you leave local is an excellent compromise. You're running from the enemy? Do it the hard way.

 

Not allowing players to start on Chaos is a double edged sword. I know of at least 3 players very recently (less than a week ago) that are not in a kingdom and have been trying their hand out on Chaos. Assuming that people will quit because of Chaos is unfounded. I do agree that its better for people to start elsewhere and will defenitely make it better for them, but the only thing you'll get by closing this option for players is less options of places to go after the tutorial. Anyone that really wants to put alts in caves or misuse alts in general will not be dissuaded by this. Sail to the border and cross into Indy, summon your alt to the boat, and sail it back to wherever you want it. It takes literally no effort or risk and the result is the same.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yes lemme be useful again with tangleweave. thankyou

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i suggest no more Local for anyone on chaos. and no /who. i think it would change the style of pvp a lot

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think we are going to be looking at premium only chaos at this time, the current idea is to mix up how mines and local work.  If you don't have a direct open path to an exit near by you will not be able to see local above ground the same will go for them seeing you.  Would likely be a cut off if your to far from the entrance also, this would likely effect all pvp servers including epic.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Darklords said:

I don't think we are going to be looking at premium only chaos at this time, the current idea is to mix up how mines and local work.  If you don't have a direct open path to an exit near by you will not be able to see local above ground the same will go for them seeing you.  Would likely be a cut off if your to far from the entrance also, this would likely effect all pvp servers including epic.

I like this idea a lot and can definitely see where you're coming from. What do you think about the other idea of not allowing new toons to create an account on Chaos? What we've noticed living next to the landing is five or more fresh accounts show up at our deed a week. The unfortunate thing is we have to kill them because there's no way to know if its someone trying to get information or just a new player. Restricting this would either require a new player to get some skill before coming over and make a boat. Or have a friend already on the server which is preferred. Just trying to think about player retention and remove the idea of Chaos being such a toxic environment.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Darklords said:

I don't think we are going to be looking at premium only elevation at this time, the current idea is to mix up how mines and local work.  If you don't have a direct open path to an exit near by you will not be able to see local above ground the same will go for them seeing you.  Would likely be a cut off if your to far from the entrance also, this would likely effect all pvp servers including epic.

 

5 hours ago, Beastwolf said:

i suggest no more Local for anyone on chaos. and no /who. i think it would change the style of pvp a lot

 

literally game old problems solved with a simple solution thats been asked for a trial change for as long as i can remember. it'll change the dynamic of the game and make it less boring and predictable while youre at it. just add a use bind for pendulums

 

 

also can we stop half-doing things and pretending its alright. 3 lib champs for hots kingdoms  but forced 3 separate priests for wl? every single bl priest with tangleweave scorn etc. 

theres no chance in hell youre telling yourself this sounds okay, right?. and if you arent, then why foolishly let your playerbase invest the time and money on this option when you know as well as i do its going to get nerfed when someone gets wrecked by it. and then the people who invested countless time and resources are assed out again by a "small change"  that will render months of kingdom coordination either crippled or downright worthless. i think this fact being completely ignored and downplayed is probably the most infuriating part of the most recent changes. the failure to acknowledge the investment of time and resources being put into becoming a coordinated and cohesive kingdom

 

i feel like here we are 10 years later making the same decade old bandaid mistakes

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, platinumteef said:

 

 

literally game old problems solved with a simple solution thats been asked for a trial change for as long as i can remember. it'll change the dynamic of the game and make it less boring and predictable while youre at it. just add a use bind for pendulums

 

 

also can we stop half-doing things and pretending its alright. 3 lib champs for hots kingdoms  but forced 3 separate priests for wl? every single bl priest with tangleweave scorn etc. 

theres no chance in hell youre telling yourself this sounds okay, right?. and if you arent, then why foolishly let your playerbase invest the time and money on this option when you know as well as i do its going to get nerfed when someone gets wrecked by it. and then the people who invested countless time and resources are assed out again by a "small change"  that will render months of kingdom coordination either crippled or downright worthless. i think this fact being completely ignored and downplayed is probably the most infuriating part of the most recent changes. the failure to acknowledge the investment of time and resources being put into becoming a coordinated and cohesive kingdom

 

i feel like here we are 10 years later making the same decade old bandaid mistakes

7 hours ago, Beastwolf said:

i suggest no more Local for anyone on chaos. and no /who. i think it would change the style of pvp a lot

 

+1

Edited by user

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, platinumteef said:

 

 

literally game old problems solved with a simple solution thats been asked for a trial change for as long as i can remember. it'll change the dynamic of the game and make it less boring and predictable while youre at it. just add a use bind for pendulums

 

 

also can we stop half-doing things and pretending its alright. 3 lib champs for hots kingdoms  but forced 3 separate priests for wl? every single bl priest with tangleweave scorn etc. 

theres no chance in hell youre telling yourself this sounds okay, right?. and if you arent, then why foolishly let your playerbase invest the time and money on this option when you know as well as i do its going to get nerfed when someone gets wrecked by it. and then the people who invested countless time and resources are assed out again by a "small change"  that will render months of kingdom coordination either crippled or downright worthless. i think this fact being completely ignored and downplayed is probably the most infuriating part of the most recent changes. the failure to acknowledge the investment of time and resources being put into becoming a coordinated and cohesive kingdom

 

i feel like here we are 10 years later making the same decade old bandaid mistakes

 

 

I'd strongly agree with this if there Were any hots kingdoms, but there arent and havent been for quite a while

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Polojordan said:

 

 

I'd strongly agree with this if there Were any hots kingdoms, but there arent and havent been for quite a while

DD was, and thats what? A little over a year ago? Maybe two? All it takes is a writ and a group of players deciding to go this route. 5 years ago no one would had thought JK would be disbanded. 2 years ago no one thought the top kingdom TC would disband. Yet here we are. 

 

5 hours ago, platinumteef said:

 

 

literally game old problems solved with a simple solution thats been asked for a trial change for as long as i can remember. it'll change the dynamic of the game and make it less boring and predictable while youre at it. just add a use bind for pendulums

 

 

also can we stop half-doing things and pretending its alright. 3 lib champs for hots kingdoms  but forced 3 separate priests for wl? every single bl priest with tangleweave scorn etc. 

theres no chance in hell youre telling yourself this sounds okay, right?. and if you arent, then why foolishly let your playerbase invest the time and money on this option when you know as well as i do its going to get nerfed when someone gets wrecked by it. and then the people who invested countless time and resources are assed out again by a "small change"  that will render months of kingdom coordination either crippled or downright worthless. i think this fact being completely ignored and downplayed is probably the most infuriating part of the most recent changes. the failure to acknowledge the investment of time and resources being put into becoming a coordinated and cohesive kingdom

 

i feel like here we are 10 years later making the same decade old bandaid mistakes

The problem with the kingdoms and the priests can be solved if pvp stopped tying them together. So many troublesome server issues would be fixed if religion stopped being tied to kingdoms and whether they were WL or BL. Allow all kingdoms to have all priests and lift faith restriction/changes for crossing the border. This would put ALL kingdoms in equal footing and allow everyone to have the same access to all spells. The matter was more or less settled when player gods were a thing, but now with removing player gods you have make the balancing problem unfixable, and will remain so until you either create more BL gods or allow for all kingdoms to have all gods. There is no other fix.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

DD was, and thats what? A little over a year ago? Maybe two?

 

You also had AO, much more recent.

48 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

So many troublesome server issues would be fixed if religion stopped being tied to kingdoms and whether they were WL or BL.

Not worth it. WL and BL is a cool dynamic and offers nice gameplay elements and immersion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I mean for alts you need some sort of ruling, can't fix the issue with mechanics really. 

No matter what you can pop alts into mines to prevent other kingdoms to drop deeds ( has happened ) or put them close to deeds to prevent the other kingdom from expanding their deeds etc...

There is just to many things that can be done without any sort of rules that you won't be able to get around it with just changing mechanics...


 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Sn00 said:

Not worth it. WL and BL is a cool dynamic and offers nice gameplay elements and immersion.

I agree, but then your only other alternative is making more BL gods. Otherwise its only a bandaid that creates future certainty. The issue BL kingdoms had was mostly eliminated with player gods. When I was in DD we were able to be on even ground with other PMKs by using player gods to compensate for the lack of variety. BL kingdoms were able to have all the same spells nearly evenly spread about all the player gods. True, back then Smeagain was king with LoF and +25% damage increase and in serious need of a nerf, but it helps to bring the example of balance. Since all kingdoms were able to have Smeagain priests, all kingdoms were more or less balanced no matter if they were BL or WL. Speaking priest-wise.

 

With the current status quo, we come across this significant problem: Either BL has all priests with tangleweave + scorn, or none of them have tangleweave. Giving every BL kingdom tangleweave on every single one of their priests would put all WL in disadvantage as they can't possibly have as many priests with Tangleweave as Lib can. WL kingdoms would have to choose between a relatively useless in pvp priest that can interrupt casts (Vynora) or combat efficienty or survivability (Fo / Mag) whereas Lib priest would have both down to a man. The alternative is leaving BL without access to tangleweave, and thus unable to interrupt spell casts. The slider is fully to the left, or fully to the right. 

 

How long before they make the change, only to find out a year from now that BL PMKs are too powerful and need a nerf, thus forcing BL players to disband and remake their pmk into a WL kingdom with all the priest and faith issues that come with such a change?

 

(sorry for the long-winded reply. I can't help myself :()

 

31 minutes ago, Meep said:

I mean for alts you need some sort of ruling, can't fix the issue with mechanics really. 

No matter what you can pop alts into mines to prevent other kingdoms to drop deeds ( has happened ) or put them close to deeds to prevent the other kingdom from expanding their deeds etc...

There is just to many things that can be done without any sort of rules that you won't be able to get around it with just changing mechanics...


 

 

What qualifies as an "alt"? Would putting my 70 fight skill, 100 faith, 65 channeling Path of Power 7 Mag priest inside a strongwalled mine tile be considered an "alt" and thus get me in trouble with a ruling and potentially banned? I could stuff it with karma and just karma back whenever I need it out of that hole. Or what about my PoI 11, nearly 90 FS pvp alt? Would that be considered an "alt" too? Or what about my 43 body, 70 med "main" Angelklaine? would that be considered an alt? What about my 20 fight skill but 100 faith and 70 channeling Fo priest? Or my other Fo priest? Or my inactive friend's main account? Or his 80 fight skill, 70 med 100 faith Fo priest? I could go on, I got a lot of accounts I could use.

 

That is the problem with rulings. If you make a ruling against alts, you need to identify what an "alt" is. That is no simple task and you can potentially burn legitimate players in the process.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since the removal of the player gods give us the ability to choose champ slots as before. No limit to one of each god for each kingdom.

 

Also add key bind for bashing walls/towers/mine doors and what not.

 

Also keep in mind as far as making vynora viable. Sure she has spell spam... Mag however has pretty close to same spell spam, damage bonus, res stone, healing spell.

Last time someone brought this up I saw staff say something like:  "vynora has utility spells" none of those are pvp utility spells and the pve side has nothing to do with pvp.

So in order to balance out vynora a bit you have to look past the pve side of the priest and look towards only the pvp side of it.

As it is with fo and mag being the way they are you WONT see vynora priests other than champs for pvp and that is only because we are forced to have one to compete.

 

The kingdom management going to some other titles or people would be super handy as well. Since sharing is down to two people now that would help alot. There are times you need to have access to the kings permissions at a moments notice. It could potentially be treated similar to deed permissions.

 

Please revert the sailing changes for pvp they killed boat pvp pretty hard.

 

As far as alts go, dont let people start a new account on the server and that would atleast be a step in the right direction.

 

Giving a timer once you hit local of an enemy to be able to karma out could help combat abuse with caves changing as suggested.

On top of this maybe making it so an enemy in local doesn't affect skill gain until they are gone, maybe after 1-2 hours it goes on cd for a couple hours or something. (Or just do away with that in general)

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Libila will likely receive a different named tangleweave(same general effect) with a much longer cooldown to make up for them having more casts of it.

 

Sailing I cannot comment on yet but we are discussing that and ill let you know when we have a final answer on that.

 

Kingdom management as a title to allow someone other than the king to manage stuff does not sound like a terrible idea I put that on our list for consideration.

 

Not likely to make the enemy in local stuff last longer for anything but karma home/teleporting in general to prevent abuse.

 

Solving alts without mechanics is hard because as mentioned at what point do we start calling something an alt? I have 70+ fightskill decent fighter alts. Also whats to stop someone from just locking what could easily be considered a main of someone naked/in bad gear and doing the same things?  We would like to find a balance mechanic wise to prevent the abuse rather than having hard to enforce rules against it. As far as alts in reinforced mines preventing expansion, if it stays a problem we may likely have to prevent things in mines from stopping expansion or some other change to prevent that behavior.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello @Darklordsgreat idea on the thread.

 

a possible fix for multiple things here.

 

Removing the Local tab and removing /who for chaos / Epic could stop Alt Abuse

 

Also removing "Player has lost link / left world  / logged in" - Only allow this for people on friend lists or something. - as this can be seen by enemy if in a cave with lowered Local view etc.

 

This would negate the need to play around with above ground and below ground game mechanics as its already bad and buggy..

 

Boat PvP - Possibly allow for the old sailing on chaos / Epic  although it was a little buggy its still way better then the current issues we have.

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure if it has already been suggested, but about using alt characters to spy: make it so that there is a requirement to see a local list, such as 70fs or something else that prevents just running a character straight out of the tutorial area to chaos

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Firecat said:

Not sure if it has already been suggested, but about using alt characters to spy: make it so that there is a requirement to see a local list, such as 70fs or something else that prevents just running a character straight out of the tutorial area to chaos

So anyone on Chaos has to be 70+ fight skill? What's the point? People would just get a couple alts with 70 fs and stick them around where they need them. Getting 70 fs is easy and many Chaos players already have multiple accounts that serve this purpose. Case in point:

 

8 hours ago, Darklords said:

Solving alts without mechanics is hard because as mentioned at what point do we start calling something an alt? I have 70+ fightskill decent fighter alts. Also whats to stop someone from just locking what could easily be considered a main of someone naked/in bad gear and doing the same things?  We would like to find a balance mechanic wise to prevent the abuse rather than having hard to enforce rules against it. As far as alts in reinforced mines preventing expansion, if it stays a problem we may likely have to prevent things in mines from stopping expansion or some other change to prevent that behavior.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. remove /who

2. make it much easier to remove reinforcements off deed

3. revert the sailing mechanics

4. make the local view distance the same above and below ground

5. casting locate soul is a spell spam and should have increased success rate so that it's cast less often and would require less priests

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Galatyn said:

5. casting locate soul is a spell spam and should have increased success rate so that it's cast less often and would require less priests

 

What do you mean by this exactly? 
It's very easy to locate someone as of now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Sn00 said:

 

What do you mean by this exactly? 
It's very easy to locate someone as of now.

 

Locate soul is not that important in the list to change.  I don't think anyone really has an issue with it.  For this one specifically, I'm just going by the perceived stated trend of number of priests needed and spell spam.

Yeah, it's easy to cast locate soul, but it could take many casts.  How many casts are typical to locate someone?  From my experience, there are usually multiple priests simultaneously casting and it takes around 3 attempts or so (it's not exact, but more likely than not, more than one cast each). I would consider this spell spam and according to the recent patch notes, seems like the goal is to reduce the number of priests needed and spell spam.   "We want to reduce the number of priests needed in a fight to be viable, and as such have reduced the spell-spam effects"

 

 

Edited by Galatyn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Galatyn said:

 

Locate soul is not that important in the list to change.  I don't think anyone really has an issue with it.  For this one specifically, I'm just going by the perceived stated trend of number of priests needed and spell spam.

Yeah, it's easy to cast locate soul, but it could take many casts.  How many casts are typical to locate someone?  From my experience, there are usually multiple priests simultaneously casting and it takes around 3 attempts or so (it's not exact, but more likely than not, more than one cast each). I would consider this spell spam and according to the recent patch notes, seems like the goal is to reduce the number of priests needed and spell spam.   "We want to reduce the number of priests needed in a fight to be viable, and as such have reduced the spell-spam effects"

 

 

By the same token we should eliminate casting dirt as it is spell spam. Or disintegrate spell spam. Or enchant spell spam. I think you are taking it the wrong way bud. 

 

Locate soul by its very nature will always require multiple casts. Multiple priests casting would increase the speed and the ability to locate someone. Given that the person being located does not want to be located, naturally there will be a contested roll versus the Nolo. This is working as intended. Now the effectiveness of it? That's another matter entirely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh dear me. 

 

Is it that time of the year again? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 5/7/2020 at 10:52 AM, Darklords said:

I don't think we are going to be looking at premium only chaos at this time, the current idea is to mix up how mines and local work.  If you don't have a direct open path to an exit near by you will not be able to see local above ground the same will go for them seeing you.  Would likely be a cut off if your to far from the entrance also, this would likely effect all pvp servers including epic.

What about sounds, combat sounds, bashing sounds... etc...? 

 

Those can still give the enemy away, regardless of whether you can see them in local or not. 

Edited by atazs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

By the same token we should eliminate casting dirt as it is spell spam. Or disintegrate spell spam. Or enchant spell spam. I think you are taking it the wrong way bud. 

 

Locate soul by its very nature will always require multiple casts. Multiple priests casting would increase the speed and the ability to locate someone. Given that the person being located does not want to be located, naturally there will be a contested roll versus the Nolo. This is working as intended. Now the effectiveness of it? That's another matter entirely.

 

"We want to reduce the number of priests needed in a fight to be viable, and as such have reduced the spell-spam effects"

 

Before a fight, locate soul provides useful vector information about the enemy.  You don't cast dirt on a person in a fight or disintegrate, which sounds pretty cool though.  If you literally want to "reduce the number of priests in a fight to be viable", then it shouldn't take so many priests casting multiple times to achieve a goal, which results in a spell spam.

Edited by Galatyn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Locate soul has already seen some major nerfs in the priest overhaul, it already has protections against spamming like resistance/more limited max range it can find players now/a cooldown. Don't think we will be looking at more unless it becomes a problem somehow.

 

Will take a look at messages/sounds showing up when hidden from local(except for stealth likely).

 

Removing player counts for pvp servers is something that would require some deeper discussion between the team so I have no answer for that currently.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.