Darklords

PvP Discussion #1

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Hi Everyone

 

First, I would like to say that I am sorry we did not announce the last PvP changes before pushing them live. Moving forward, we will be making dedicated discussion threads of upcoming PvP related changes to provide players sufficient warning and time for some feedback.

 

Alongside this change, I wanted to address some of the concerns raised by players in the patch note thread. I gave my original notes via Retro, but it is clear that a more in-depth discussion/explanation is needed.

 

Addressing Concerns Mentioned

  • Healing enchants did not receive the resistance penalty changes as they require you to be doing active weapon damage to heal, and it is one of the few ways non priests can heal meaning this is open for everyone to use as an enchanted weapon. It will, however, still work off healing resistance and other methods of healing will build up the resistance faster, decreasing the effectiveness of the enchant.
  • We did not want to nerf all spells that use casting on other players bodies with range checks from starting position, so we picked to remove the body casting on the few trouble spells from being usable on vehicles only. Heal is the intended spell to be used on moving vehicles with its long cast time.
  • Every priest (of which most people are on PvP) having tangleweave allowed non-stop casting of the spell.  While we do want to reduce spell-spam, allowing the non-stop interruption of spells as a solution is not a viable long term solution compared to limiting how useful things are to spam. Being able to block a vital spell, like heal on a dying person is not something we want to remove, but being able to block casts indefinitely seems a bit of a broken way to handle spell spam. The only counter to this would require even more priests, leaving people without tons of them extremely vulnerable to this heal/damage spam from spells.
  • For tangleweave, going forward, how would people feel about Vynora/Libila only having tangleweave with closer to the original values to make Vyrnoa a more viable pick in PvP combat? We are also open to other ideas for making vynora a bit more feasible as a pick and not just because it's required to fill all three champ slots/enchant stuff.
  • We are open to ideas for new venom effects, but removing the rng element of it makes it far too accurate, and we are not looking to go back to that at this time.
  • We like the idea of starting and stopping boats not being instant but understand it has made stamina regen much more difficult taking up to 8+ seconds to stop than start back up again now. Some ideas to help this include reducing stamina drain when sailing overall by a pretty large amount to make stops for stamina less required in general or reducing the time it takes to slow down in half.


 

Proposed Changes

  • Reduced stamina loss on boats from moving by half, or reduce the action time to stop/start a ship by half down to 2 seconds from 4. A mixture of both could also work.
  • Tangleweave will now be exclusive to Vynora/Libila.
  • Tangleweave cooldown reduced to 1 min.
  • Tangleweave cast time back to 3 seconds.
  • Tangleweave favour cost stays at 30.
  • Focused Will will receive the same as the cure spells.



 

This first discussion is also open to any PvP changes people would like to see in general, not just things listed here. Please note that we will likely keep future posts like this to more specific topics. Please keep it civil and on topic, save the kingdoms and other player-related talks for skirmishes/discord PvP channel.

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Tangleweave will now be exclusive to Vynora.

So now only WLers can interrupt spell casts? That doesn't sit alright with me.

 

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Reduced stamina loss on boats from moving by half, or reduce the action time to stop/start a ship by half down to 2 seconds from 4. A mixture of both could also work.

Why not just remove it altogether? Passengers have no stamina loss and they're supposedly rowing the boat or helping tacking or whatever. I don't mind boats taking a long time to stop, that's just a change in meta and people can adapt to that.

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5 minutes ago, John said:

So now only WLers can interrupt spell casts? That doesn't sit alright with me.

I am sorry libila would receive it also I'll edit that to make it more clear was intending to talk about WL gods in general there.

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Great ideas. 

Thank you @Darklordsfor opening up the discussion, it's much appreciated ❤️

 

The suggested changes to sounds really good and quite well thoughtout.

Personally, I'd also like to see a few other things added so I'm gonna write them down here.

 

1. Since we can't share accounts anymore (to the same extent) could the king appoint Jarls or Royals that has access to the kingdom permission system as well? That would help a lot.
2. Could we see something done about abusing alts in general? As in putting them in reinforced mines outside of your enemy deeds.

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. Could we see something done about abusing alts in general? As in putting them in reinforced mines outside of your enemy deeds. +1 to this.

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what is an "alt"?

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9 minutes ago, John said:

Why not just remove it altogether? Passengers have no stamina loss and they're supposedly rowing the boat or helping tacking or whatever. I don't mind boats taking a long time to stop, that's just a change in meta and people can adapt to that.

Some kinda of stamina loss for the captain is more of a mechanic to prevent endless running with no penalty, open to ideas for other mechanics to prevent endless chases though.

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while venom is getting a "less nerf" can we look at the libila's damage enchants as well?

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2 minutes ago, Rakki said:

what is an "alt"?

 

It's very hard to define, I agree on that.

 

 

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The alt issue comes down to its very hard to define an alt as said, we are looking into solutions.  Will likely be an expanded take on how epic handled it awhile ago by limiting what you can see outside mines while in them.

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the game would be so much better if people wasn't/needed to using "alts",
or able to use who count on pvp servers.

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most spells in the game are so absurdly weak now (i straight up ignore any pillar spells, and any direct damage spell after the first does like 1 dmg) that the only thing worth tangleweaving is heals and there's no spell spam whatsoever, so longer cooldowns or whatever doesn't really do anything, as long as you have as many priests as they have fo/lib priests you can tangleweave everything of importance before they die, compared to before where you had to choose whether to tangleweave their damage spells or their heals. Tangleweave is supposed to be the way of countering spells so rather than nerfing/removing from most priests it i'd rather look at giving non-priests a way of doing it, maybe a special move or something thats really quick/uses a decent amount of stamina and only interrupt the enemies spells/doesn't need to be in combat for 30s to be used. Shield bashes aren't consistent enough to stop spells and specials are often quite buggy if they want to be available to you or not, i've had plenty of times where i couldn't use specials until well past when i was full focused.

 

LT is too inconsistent to be considered as a way of healing due to it being a % of damage, if you're in melee you're gonna be taking way more damage then you heal and gotta play rng with blocks/parrys/dodges, but if you back off for 30 seconds and slap wildlife with a weapon you can full heal in that time. It swings from useless to near broken depending on what you're fighting at the time, and relying on RNG in combat is a bad idea.

 

Just now, Darklords said:

Will likely be an expanded take on how epic handled it awhile ago by limiting what you can see outside mines while in them.

just an fyi, this makes karma'ing away/using a farwalker and entering combat with 40s or so of superspeed insanely easy to do, as you just pop into a cave and your local is empty. very easy to abuse.

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1 minute ago, Rakki said:

the game would be so much better if people wasn't/needed to using "alts",

 

Can you clarify a little about this? I'm thinking about crafting alts first of all.

 

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but back to venom, only way is to boost damage or possible adding a little swing timer?

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

most spells in the game are so absurdly weak now

 

I do 10 dmg wounds with inferno, around 5 with fireheart, with 70 chan.

95 chan priests do like 15 dmg wounds with shard of ice.

And I can do 25 dmg wounds with karma spells with how it scales with ML.

Edited by Sn00

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1 minute ago, Sn00 said:

 

Can you clarify a little about this? I'm thinking about crafting alts first of all.

 

well "from my point of view" spying on alts has never been something I been agreeing with. so removing that would be for the best.

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13 minutes ago, Darklords said:

I am sorry libila would receive it also I'll edit that to make it more clear was intending to talk about WL gods in general there.

This creates a balance problem where BL gets 3 champs with Tangelweave while WL gets only 1. Granted, this is a minor concern when it comes specifically to interrupting spells as other Vynora priests can have it, but it still has to be considered. 
 

8 minutes ago, Darklords said:

Some kinda of stamina loss for the captain is more of a mechanic to prevent endless running with no penalty, open to ideas for other mechanics to prevent endless chases though.

Please consider removing the new boat system to start, stop boats. It would completely solve the problem and would increase QoL on Chaos, as no one cares about how nice and pretty their boats look on their boat mines.
 

16 minutes ago, Sn00 said:

1. Since we can't share accounts anymore (to the same extent) could the king appoint Jarls or Royals that has access to the kingdom permission system as well? That would help a lot.

So much this. There's no reason why this has to be limited to just the king. Its a dumb mechanic.

 

15 minutes ago, Subie said:

. Could we see something done about abusing alts in general? As in putting them in reinforced mines outside of your enemy deeds. +1 to this.

Yes please. The community surely can give ideas.

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Just now, Oblivionnreaver said:

most spells in the game are so absurdly weak now (i straight up ignore any pillar spells, and any direct damage spell after the first does like 1 dmg) that the only thing worth tangleweaving is heals and there's no spell spam whatsoever, so longer cooldowns or whatever doesn't really do anything, as long as you have as many priests as they have fo/lib priests you can tangleweave everything of importance before they die, compared to before where you had to choose whether to tangleweave their damage spells or their heals. Tangleweave is supposed to be the way of countering spells so rather than nerfing/removing from most priests it i'd rather look at giving non-priests a way of doing it, maybe a special move or something thats really quick/uses a decent amount of stamina and only interrupt the enemies spells/doesn't need to be in combat for 30s to be used. Shield bashes aren't consistent enough to stop spells and specials are often quite buggy if they want to be available to you or not, i've had plenty of times where i couldn't use specials until well past when i was full focused.

 

LT is too inconsistent to be considered as a way of healing due to it being a % of damage, if you're in melee you're gonna be taking way more damage then you heal and gotta play rng with blocks/parrys/dodges, but if you back off for 30 seconds and slap wildlife with a weapon you can full heal in that time. It swings from useless to near broken depending on what you're fighting at the time, and relying on RNG in combat is a bad idea.

 

just an fyi, this makes karma'ing away/using a farwalker and entering combat with 40s or so of superspeed insanely easy to do, as you just pop into a cave and your local is empty. very easy to abuse.

We can possibly take a look at shield bashing balance as far as non priests go.

 

The teleporting is a great point, we could add a cooldown once leaving an enemy local to using it, something around 10 minutes or so.

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I'll update my input on this comment when I'm more able to but just wanted to say. Very very impressed to see this thread. Great job this is the direction we need. 

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2 minutes ago, Darklords said:

We can possibly take a look at shield bashing balance as far as non priests go.

 

The teleporting is a great point, we could add a cooldown once leaving an enemy local to using it, something around 10 minutes or so.

This would be ideal. I remember myself using this mechanic on Epic to escape a fight that went poorly for me. I think its the very best solution to the problem.

Also, shield bashing needs some fixing. If we could actually grind shield bashing and it got tweaked accordingly it would be a very positive way to eliminate spell spam. One way is increasing shield bash gains when used on mobs, instead of basically requiring another enemy player to reliably skill it.

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1.  Revert the sailing changes completely.  No compromise, no half-fixes.... just GONE.  

2.  Tangleweave was not an issue.  If you want to stop spell spam... here's an idea... increase the cast time of the spells that you feel are being over used (LoF, etc).

3.  Exclusive rights to tangleweave for Vynora priests does not begin to compensate for their lack of utility spells in PvP.  I proposed a similar "focused will" spell that *can* be cast on the body while sailling, exclusive to Vyn priests.

4.  Consider creation and modification of PvP mechanics that are unusable by priests.  Shield bashing would be a great example.

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Very surprised by this post, but I am very glad it arrived.

 

My 2 cents:
 

Everyone seems to be onto something with the shield bashing thing. It brings great balance to the game to allow a non-priest to have a relevent combat move that is useful (such as interrupting spells) that a priest cannot do.

As it stands, not being a priest on chaos is the exception, not the norm, and for good reason. Priests are allowed to do entirely too much in addition to being able to cast spells.

 

Also, big fan of breaking the synchronicity of freedom and chaos and removing the new boat speed update for pvp entirely. Freedom loves it. Chaos hates it. Give the people each what they want. 😁

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1 hour ago, Darklords said:

open to ideas for other mechanics to prevent endless chases though.

If someone's wounded or out of stamina the bonus speed they add to the boat should be reduced

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I really happy there will be a dedicated discussion to the PvP changes. This should help most PvPers feel like we're no longer the redheaded stepchild of the community

 

The proposed changes look and sound great to me as of right now.

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I just want to outline the main points right now.

 

Tangleweave: I think this was the weirdest change in the most recent patch. It wasn’t nerfed, it was basically removed. The proposed changes sound great to me. It makes it expensive and requires more thinking when using but not completely useless. 

 

Boats: I think the proposed change isn’t really enough. The entire mechanic needs to be changed. I honestly do not have any ideas on what to do. However, I understand that the main goal is to not have chases last forever. Currently though when we are getting on a sailboat it’s more of “Okay, who's going to be the captain just know you’re going to die.” The stam loss for captains makes them entirely useless and an easy target. 

 

Alts: I think the first thing that needs to be done is remove nonprem from Chaos all together. And do not allow new accounts to even start over there. This in my opinion kills two birds with one stone. First off, new players on Chaos sound fine and dandy until they get killed 3 or 4 times and quit the game and never come back. Second, it removes the creation of silly accounts to run around and spy. Then I believe as hard as it sounds alt abuse should be against some kind of rule. I do not know how it’d be tracked, or even enforced. But there is a problem with strongwalling alts into caves. Besides the fact that whoever is doing it has a sad life. It’s silly and kills pvp, takes away a lot of the fun of it. The issue with this is the people doing it will talk themselves in circles asking “What defines an alt blah blah blah” Even though they know damn well what they are doing.

 

I think I covered everything that currently needs to be discussed right now. Again, I’m glad that this thread was made. I hope it’s used and not just makeup for more of the same. Though I do have a lot of trust in the Wurm team moving in the right direction. I’ve seen that from the quality increase of Retro’s stream to more transparency in the Discord and forums. Subtracting the most recent pvp change of course. 
 

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