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Platyna

Dealing with ASD people - training suggestion for player management staff.

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Dear Administrators,

 

time has changed, ASD (Autism Spectrum Disorder) people do not rot in insane asylums or stay hidden from the world in their homes. We are more and more able to participate in the community of neurotypical persons, Internet played a great role in this. We also play online games, and we have to overcome our difficulties in communication with "normal people", which is often very hard, and we also have our limits that we can't pass by, despite our great effort to understand and coexist with NTs. One of every 70 persons is a person with ASD. So my kind suggestion would be some training for the player management staff, especially GMs, how to deal with ASD people, especially when it comes to giving clear, non contradicting instructions. In a link below there are some hints. Please, we make a great effort to communicate with neurotypical people, please make some effort to make it easier for us, so we don't get in stressful and uncomfortable situations. Most important highlights are: If you don't want us to speak with X, tell us "do not speak with X", if you think we did something wrong tell us "You did [a particular, precisely defined activity or example] and it was wrong",  if we try to explain to you the way we think and our rationale, do not interpret it as arguing, we had to spend considerable time of our lives to explain how we think and why we do certain things, that it became our second nature, and we pay a great attention to details, and we tend to repeat ourselves, this is something we have a little control of. Thank you in advance for your time and consideration, have a good day!

 

https://www.mayinstitute.org/news/acl/asd-and-dd-adult-focused/tips-for-talking-to-adults-on-the-autism-spectrum/

Edited by Pandalet
Moderation edit
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This topic could spark some really valuable conversations. My family has a genetic marker for ASD. There are 6 of us on the spectrum. In public, it is very hard to explain our behaviors and I often feel like Other. 

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Firstly- I must say that I have no idea of the problem that caused the banning of Platyna, have never met them or talked to them in chat so I write the following from a neutral stance!

 

I have a some experience of ASD people (mainly children) through my job in school. 

 

I can sympathise with both the player involved and the GM. To begin with, the children in our school who had ASD were often thought of as being 'naughty' as we had little idea of how to 'cope' with them. We asked a professional to meet with us and they explained both the large range of symptoms and the way that these can be exhibited. One of the best suggestions was indeed- as Platyna stated above-  showing us how to phrase instructions so that there could be as little confusion as possible as to what was required or expected.

 

Now, the spectrum is very wide and people across it can display many different types of behaviour and this is where there can be possible conflict between players and management such as a GM. How to be sympathetic to a player who has ASD yet not to be taken in by another player who is taking advantage of a potential loophole may make it impossible to judge correctly if there is the possibility of a ban because of an action in-game.

 

In a school situation, we are of course privy to confidential medical notes that can confirm a child has ASD if a parent wishes to give us access. I do not think that anyone would wish to give a GM- a person who they in all likelihood do not know- evidence of ASD and this in my eyes would be a major problem for both player and management to overcome.

 

I would be interested to read the views of other players and perhaps the input of a GM to highlight other potential issues that I have not thought of.

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I did not request any special treatment to abuse. I think clear, simple instructions would benefit everyone, not only ASD people, but for us they are not optional, they are required, if we were to understand and follow instructions correctly. I on't think ASD can be easily faked, we do communicate in certain, very distinctive way, and as far as I have been told, it is easy to spot by ASD aware people. 

Edited by Platyna

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Somewhere there is an intersection between compassion and compliance.

 

Knowledge and self reflection always help.

Edited by nygen

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I was one of the people who had dealings with Platyna and saw how she acted first hand, as always there is two sides to all stories and I don't think this is the place to "air "  the dirty washing so to speak.

But some of the actions of Platyna had nothing to do with not understanding clear instructions or any kind of misunderstanding.

 

What I will say is I think hand on heart the people in the area give Platyna way more chances than normal due to the fact she told us it was her illness that made her act that way, I also think the GM team dealt with things as well as can be expected and at times were giving her the benefit of the doubt more so due to her illness.

 

But there is an interesting point being raised, but how many people have different problems, issues or illness who don't manage to upset a large part of the local player base, How do you decide if one persons Illness makes it fair to spoil the game for other players?

 

Its quite a hard call I would expect for the GM team,  but I feel at the end of weeks of problems the team did give Platyna clear instructions and she still broke the rules, I don't think the team could have done anything else different, the rule are there to protect everyone and there for a reason.

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We spend considerable time ensuring that our rules are clear, and that any GM directive is clear as well. 

 

This case started as a typical border dispute between players. It happens, players sometimes have plans for spaces, so we approached it as such and attempted to mediate your situation with a mutually beneficial result. 

 

After THREE GM's came to investigate through various tickets, ranging from making roads unable to be passable, to harassment in local, you were given a very clear directive by the GM team:

[10:41:47] <GM> I didn't say that, just stating that I want you to fix the road and leave them alone. that is all.

[10:55:54] <GM> It needs to be straight today.
[10:56:20] <
GM> I don't want to see any other issues pop up regarding this.
[10:56:49] <GM> You need to leave them all alone, put them on your ignore if you have to.

 

You were clearly and plainly told to leave them alone, and put them on ignore if you have to. 

 

Unfortunately, this lasted less than two hours:

[12:14:53] <Platyna> Merfin I know you are stubborn, if you move the road 2 tiles you will gain like 20+ tiles of space for RR.
[12:15:00] <Platyna> And don't answer me, you are on ignore.

 

For that you received a 3 day timeout ban due to your failure to follow a directive in which you were given. 

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1 hour ago, Badvoc said:

But there is an interesting point being raised, but how many people have different problems, issues or illness who don't manage to upset a large part of the local player base, How do you decide if one persons Illness makes it fair to spoil the game for other players?

This is a social environment and no allowances for personal issues or illnesses or disabilities or any mental diagnostics or drug issues can be given.  I do not mean we are not sympathetic, but such things are not get our of jail free cards.  Playing Wurm Online and being among our community is a voluntary choice, and if you can abide by the given rules, then you are welcome here,  if you are unable to comply with those rules, I cannot give you a free pass to burden everyone else.

 

We do welcome all, but we set our rules for the benefit of everyone and do not provide exception for personal situations that might cause someone to disregard the rules.

 

 

1 hour ago, Retrograde said:

We spend considerable time ensuring that our rules are clear, and that any GM directive is clear as well. 

 

This case started as a typical border dispute between players. It happens, players sometimes have plans for spaces, so we approached it as such and attempted to mediate your situation with a mutually beneficial result. 

 

After THREE GM's came to investigate through various tickets, ranging from making roads unable to be passable, to harassment in local, you were given a very clear directive by the GM team:

[10:41:47] <GM> I didn't say that, just stating that I want you to fix the road and leave them alone. that is all.

[10:55:54] <GM> It needs to be straight today.
[10:56:20] <
GM> I don't want to see any other issues pop up regarding this.
[10:56:49] <GM> You need to leave them all alone, put them on your ignore if you have to.

 

You were clearly and plainly told to leave them alone, and put them on ignore if you have to. 

 

Unfortunately, this lasted less than two hours:

[12:14:53] <Platyna> Merfin I know you are stubborn, if you move the road 2 tiles you will gain like 20+ tiles of space for RR.
[12:15:00] <Platyna> And don't answer me, you are on ignore.

 

For that you received a 3 day timeout ban due to your failure to follow a directive in which you were given. 

From what I have read so far this is accurate.

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I didn't wish this thread to be a ban discussion, I used this as an example of a communication error. Are we even allowed to discuss this issue on a public forum? I heard not, that's why I PM'd you my answer, including the quotes from GM. 

 

Badvoc, ASD is not an illness, is developmental disorder.

 

 

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Enki, which rules forbid me from this:

 

[19:14:55] <Platyna> Merfin I know you are stubborn, if you move the road 2 tiles you will gain like 20+ tiles of space for RR.
 

A GM never ordered me to not speak with this person, on the contrary, she ordered me to talk with them.

 

If ASD persons are not tolerated in game, can you make proper information on the registration page and refund me my expenses? 

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9 minutes ago, Platyna said:

I didn't wish this thread to be a ban discussion, I used this as an example of a communication error. Are we even allowed to discuss this issue on a public forum? I heard not, that's why I PM'd you my answer, including the quotes from GM. 

 

Badvoc, ASD is not an illness, is developmental disorder.

 

I stand corrected and should have used the term condition sorry.

Edited by Badvoc

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Since my ban issue was brought on this thread, which was meant only to post a kind suggestion that could improve the game experience for all of us, here is my reply, I have also sent on PM:

 

First, NT people abuse the expression "leave [something] alone" it is usually a meaningless figure of speech or has multiple meanings, sometimes absurd ones, this is what comes from my observation. It is something I thought considering the context of this:

 

[01:27:25] <GM> I was talking directly with YOU and directly with the other party.
[01:24:12] <GM> This is why you talk to potential neighbors before you place a deed.. Ask questions, let them explain.
[01:28:10] <GM> I'm done talking and arguing. You have your directive.
[01:53:58] <GM> Then you need to talk to the mayor.

 

Where I am not only not forbidden but clearly ordered to communicate, and this: 

01:16:50] <GM> You are just as much of the issue as Merfin. If we get another ticket about this issue, we will issue a 7 day ban.
[01:43:04] <GM> I've seen the tickets.
[01:48:12] <GM> Which was also a part of an original ticket.
[14:20:20] <GM> I am not here to argue about blame. I am letting you know that there will not be a 7 day ban as i had stated, but a 3 day ban if another ticket goes in on each side.
[14:21:20] <Platyna> I can't control these people. Why I will be banned because someone gives bogus tickets?
[14:28:51] <GM> As far as refusing to fix the road that I asked you, that is what led to the new directive. It is fixed. Any other tickets that come in will be reviewed before any decision is made otherwise
[14:30:37] <GM> ALL tickets that are put in from this point on will be reviewed as the others

 

It is obvious to me that the forbidden thing was to place tickets. 

 

I was never ordered clearly to not speak with them, I was ordered to put them on ignore which I did, and I have informed Merfin about this.

 

But since I learned that ASD people are not to be tolerated here, I think this topic is no longer valid and can be closed. 

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wurm online has plenty of people with ASD playing it and not getting banned 🤔

 

you were ordered to fix the road and didn't from what i see lol

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I was requested to fix the road I didn't break in a location other GM specifically and clearly ordered to not perform any work. And when a GM made clear that the exception will be made I did fix the road. 

 

[00:52:30] <GM> Great. Then you will start with this 27 slope here where I am at, correct?
[00:52:43] <Platyna> No.
[00:52:59] <Platyna> I am not going to perform any work there.
[00:53:35] <Platyna> Why would I? A GM specificaly ordered that this is the part of RR and I do not conduct any works there.
[00:53:46] <Platyna> And where you are standing, I never did.
[00:54:34] <GM> You did when you terraformed the other. You have a new directive. Fix this or you will be issued a 3 day ban.
[00:54:56] <Platyna> No, I did not terraformed the road you stand on.
[00:55:13] <Platyna> And I am forbidden to work there.
[00:55:21] <Platyna> By a GM.

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Do you think a kind request for simplifying the communication so it can be understood by certain group of people is an allowance? If there are special lifts in the buildings, so people on wheelchairs can move freely, do you think it is also an allowance? I posted log snippets, I was never forbidden by a GM to talk with any people, for a neurotypical person who can read between verses it may be clear (I really have no idea how you do that that the same words mean something completely different to you than to me), for an ASD person it isn't. We need simple communication, do that, don't do that. You can't encourage someone to consult their neighbors and then ban them for that. "Play nice", "leave them alone" - these are all vague statements. If I knew I am not allowed to speak with that player I wouldn't.

 

Edited by Platyna

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As for approaching individuals needs, we will always endeavour to speak as clearly and plainly as possible. The rules will still apply to everyone equally. 

You are not the only neuroatypical player or staff member that we have, and in this instance, a directive was given in plain and clear words. I fail to see any ability to misinterpret being told to leave someone alone as allowing you to talk to them.

 

 

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I posted a log snippet where a GM clearly orders me to talk to my neighbors, why did you ignore it? Not to mention a person from RR PM'd me today and did not get banned. No game rule forbids me to speak with other players. In the given context it is no way the directive was clear. It would be clear if it would be clearly stated "Do not talk with X, Y, Z". As I said I didn't know I am not allowed to talk with this player, I was never told so. 

Edited by Platyna

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Those instructions were given before the final instruction of leaving them alone. 

 

If a later instruction goes against an earlier instruction, the later instruction supersedes the earlier one. 

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