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Coinsack

Gambling and RMT

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Wurm Online Rules:

Gambling

Definition:

*Gambling is prohibited in Wurm Online due to Swedish law.

*Gambling is considered to be any type of activity where the winning of a prize is determined by chance and requires payment of any form to participate.

*Contests of chance requiring NO form of payment to participate are allowed.

________________________________________________________________________

 

 

 

Real Money Transactions are prohibited, so our Wurm possessions have no conceivable value.

A player may move or transfer virtual Wurm items, but that can never be a real payment.

A player can never receive anything of value through using the Wurm Online game.

 

 

Whatever the answers may be,

some thinkings and wonderings:

 

What is a "form" of payment?

Coin is a form of payment.

Could a payment be formless (intangible)?

Does a person's word (their promise/pledge) have value enough to be payment?

If a player hosted a free public lottery/drawing, what if he was doing it all for the smiles and happy words? That is the payment form received from the participants.

 

What is subject to "chance" in the software?

Is the 'random number generator' (the pass/fail element in Wurm) truly a random number source?

Even a 'true RNG' would be delivering a result at the timing of the user's actions, so what in the world is truly up to chance anyway?

Are "moments of inspiration" influenced by such randomness?  Or is that "window" for the player's action unchanging?

 

Is premium required to participate in any activities that utilize elements-of-chance to yield assorted rewards?

(coin/premium is available in game, without ever making a real-world transaction in the Wurm Online Shop, so I suppose the payment is not "required")

Easter Eggs may be claimed by premium players, but are their contents pre-determined? (or according to a schedule/formula?)

Rift participants' rewards are from a list of known possibilities, influenced some by their performance, but does a free-skilled player even have a "chance"?

 

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2 hours ago, Enuf said:

what?

 

He is trying to rulesmonger his way into being allowed to host some sort of gambling, I assume.

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if you have to be premium to partake in a roll, it is `gambling that requires payment`.
but i guess that's a little pedantic

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Easter egg for premium is one egg , yet you can find them at starter towns come the event time .

Rift items are like a chest drop from killing mobs in any game ,  if you have the skill .

Like a none premium player can kill a wild cat , get a  rare roll and get a coin ..

 

All what i have describe is not gambling  , so any way you try to get  Wurm to pass some sort gambling you want wont float ..

 

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Loyalty reward gift boxes... Random chance to get something from low value to impossibly high one at stupidly low odds. That's almost the textbook concept of lootboxes.

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4 hours ago, Odynn said:

Loyalty reward gift boxes... Random chance to get something from low value to impossibly high one at stupidly low odds. That's almost the textbook concept of lootboxes.

The only difference is you cannot pay directly to get these loot boxes. You can only pay premium or buy silver, so even if you get the shaft, you will always get what you paid for.

 

Unlike real lootboxes.

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Does anyone here object to gambling on a moral basis?

Maybe we should remove liquor and violence from the game as well, since they are controlled in real life.
 
Imagine that I consciously pre-select a number from 1 to 100, then ask you to guess the number I have chosen.
In that scenario there is a specific correct answer and thus no randomness.
A blind decision is not based on chance, but on choice.
 

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theres no gambling allowed in the game because of swedish laws, not because of moral reasons.

 

Your example would be randomness because there's no skill or way to determine what your number is. If there was a entry price and prize attached, it would indeed be considered gambling.

Form of payment is any item or service given, that is lost, and has the chance of a bigger payout. For example, there was a post ages ago about it, where someone was offering 90ql boats for something like 50c or something, and if he rared your boat while imping it, you'd get a knarr instead (probs like 10-15x the value of what you're paying). This was allowed, because even if you lost, you would still have your sailboat that you were paying for, if you did not want the knarr you could still take the sailboat, and was not considered gambling. The premium rewards would fall under the same boat, you're paying for the premium, you've always been paying for the premium, but now there's rewards added to it. 

Rift rewards are based on participation points, there's no rng in that anymore, and you're not paying to go to the rift.

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32 minutes ago, Coinsack said:

Does anyone here object to gambling on a moral basis?

Maybe we should remove liquor and violence from the game as well, since they are controlled in real life.

 

The liquor and violence are fictional. Nobody gets drunk of it, nobody carries bruises after a fight in WO. However, if someone has to pay you silvers, which may be paid for with real money, to participate in your raffle, real resources were involved and it very much is real gambling. False equivalence.

 

32 minutes ago, Coinsack said:

A blind decision is not based on chance, but on choice.

 

But the outcome is based on chance, and that's what matters, not the way the decision is made.

 

16 hours ago, Coinsack said:

If a player hosted a free public lottery/drawing, what if he was doing it all for the smiles and happy words? That is the payment form received from the participants.

 

This is clearly sophistry, so I'll just answer this by extending the example ad absurdum: I shall not offer you smiles or happy words, I'll scowl and curse at your lottery for lackluster prizes to win, but participate anyway. Am I in breach of some "contract" now (except for common courtesy about gratitude and not looking a gift horse in the mouth)? If my positive sentiment is a payment requirement, is it really a "free" lottery as you say?

Also, "smiles and happy words" are not expendable resources, they're a sentiment, something far more abstract, and are not subject to the concerns about gambling in any way. You can't (physically) run out of smiles and happy words.

A payment is an investment of some sort, if you lose nothing for giving it, it's not really a payment.

 

16 hours ago, Coinsack said:

What is subject to "chance" in the software?

 

If this incoherent rambling is your attempt to shoehorn WO into being gambling itself: You are paying for access to the (full) service. Your attempt at reframing a gameplay mechanism into a service level issue that you pay for falls pretty flat considering that free toons are just as much subject to RNG as premium accounts are, demonstrating that these two things are independent from eachother.

Edited by Flubb
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Dude just wants to run his own Wurm high low casino

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I feel most players have hit the nail on the head here. 

 

There are multiple differences in things raised, and many events where players can win an item without having to pay any entry fee. 

 

Any instance of gambling is an offense that will lead to moderation. 

 

Also, a name like coinsack wanting to discuss gambling sounds like someone out of those old theatre productions.

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There are active instances of gambling software developers dipping their toes into the gaming market (the one a lot of people are aware of is Aristocrat's ownership of "raid shadow legends").

 

Wurm isn't there, though it has had mechanics that do push the boundaries towards gambling (looking at you "random tome" and "random ore lump").  However, these are edge cases and not the primary loop.

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23 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

Also, a name like coinsack wanting to discuss gambling sounds like someone out of those old theatre productions.

As a theatre junky I agree

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Some have completely missed the philosophical nature of this topic.
Impatiently skimming very carefully worded statements.
A few "arguments" read like agreements to me.

 

 

5 hours ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

you're paying for the premium, but now there's rewards added to it

Coin/premium is available in game without ever making a real-world transaction.  And remember that we (players) do not have ownership of any Wurm assets, and so therefore do not receive rewards/prizes of any value whatsoever.

 

5 hours ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

This was allowed, because even if you lost, you would still have your sailboat that you were paying for

Very interesting..
So you mean to say that one needs only to "pay for an item" in order to participate?
Just as long as they never leave empty-handed.

 

 

5 hours ago, Flubb said:

"smiles and happy words" are not expendable resources, they're a sentiment, something far more abstract

Exactly.
So that brings me back to my question on whether a payment could be intangible.
Couldn't a person offer his promise, an IOU ("I owe you"), or some kind of pledge, as a token of value?

 

5 hours ago, Flubb said:

if you lose nothing for giving it, it's not really a payment

Isn't labor a valid form of payment?
What does the laborer lose when he gives his work?  Time?
Just as the participants provide their time.

 

5 hours ago, Flubb said:

If my positive sentiment is a payment requirement, is it really a "free" lottery as you say?

Not a requirement.  The host asks nothing of his guests, but takes his pleasure from them.

 

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43 minutes ago, Coinsack said:

Couldn't a person offer his promise, an IOU ("I owe you"), or some kind of pledge, as a token of value?

 

Said token does not replace the real payment, it only symbolizes the delay for the real, tangible payment. That in itself makes it a tangible thing by proxy. So no, it's not the same thing.

 

32 minutes ago, Coinsack said:

The host asks nothing of his guests, but takes his pleasure from them.

 

So no transaction is made. No payment is made then either, however miniscule.

It only reads as agreement if you twist and wind yourself out of your original premises, which was to ask if this substitutes as payment. And by this decsription, I don't see how it would.

 

If deliberately misunderstanding common concepts with rather reaching statements to frame them as points on a "grand spectrum" when there are quite commonly understood nuances to delineate them further constitutes a "philosophical" discussion to you, I guess I just don't see enough use in it to humor it to the extent you'd like us to, no offense.

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What exactly is the point of this thread, and what are you trying to achieve here? 

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He wants to be able to gamble because his morality/localized laws allow it. So he is asking Wurm Devs to violate the law so he can engage in an illegal transaction to fill his ego.

 

I have never seen a more egotistical person than this.

Edited by Angelklaine

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On 4/9/2020 at 6:54 AM, Angelklaine said:

The only difference is you cannot pay directly to get these loot boxes. You can only pay premium or buy silver, so even if you get the shaft, you will always get what you paid for.

 

Unlike real lootboxes.

 

Depending on the country in question that might not be a distinction that matters, no idea if it does or not for Sweden.

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[02:04:20] Using an old Kelatchka Nomad-loophole you once heard of, you plant your deed stake and quickly found a casino.

 

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5 minutes ago, Ecrir said:

 

Depending on the country in question that might not be a distinction that matters, no idea if it does or not for Sweden.

The point is they are not selling lootboxes. There is no way to directly pay for them and there is no cost for the reward. They are an in game item that is completely separated from any real money value.

 

If it was not legal in Sweden, I doubt very much that they would be doing it here.

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What is the purpose of this topic?

 

Edited by Finnn

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I'm wondering the same. Items in game should stay in game without a real life money trade equivalent. RMT is gone. Good. Account buying/selling is prohibited. A bit late, but good.

 

Can all of it be policed 100% without error ? No. But it's still good we have these rules.

 

If you want to play gambling games, go play that stupid mobile game advertised on youtube constantly, which is a glorified online casino game using predatory gameplay tactics....ironically owned by a casino CEO. Go figure? Keep that crap out of Wurm.

 

No gambling in wurm. No RMT.  What's the point here?

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On 4/8/2020 at 7:35 AM, Coinsack said:

What is a "form" of payment?

 

What is subject to "chance" in the software?

 

Is premium required to participate in any activities that utilize elements-of-chance to yield assorted rewards?

 

If you have to figure out the answers to these questions in order to justify an idea you want to try in game the answer is it won't work. Trying to weedle your way through the wording of rules doesn't work when the people enforcing them can reword them to better demonstrate the spirit intended at a moment's notice. Especially in a game but really anywhere, if you have to argue about something in "court" then both sides have already lost.

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