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Corwen

Freedom Banners and Wagons

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game makes money from anybody spending 1.35 or whatever amount letting you bring your own design in the game...

* downside - pvpers cannibalize kingdoms and kill other/new/ pmks to reduce competition and leave only their t-shirts as option on the market

 

it's not like making a new kingdom on chaos is an option for somebody who just wants to get a thing into the game

 

What currently works as limitation is how many variations or good/bad/odd/etc.. designs you're able to see on the market is again that same downside*.. as if you can't protect your t-shirt factory.. you're bound to lose it, making it questionable investment to even start a pmk on chaos.

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On 3/20/2020 at 5:09 PM, Finnn said:

game makes money from anybody spending 1.35 or whatever amount letting you bring your own design in the game...

* downside - pvpers cannibalize kingdoms and kill other/new/ pmks to reduce competition and leave only their t-shirts as option on the market

 

As an 80% Freedomer who does dabble in PVP (so I understand BOTH sides, because I spend most of my time in game prettying up my deed),  I can tell you that the only time I ever saw someone making a kingdom just to profit from their own design, was the crow kingdom and I'm fairly sure they did not even PVP one bit. PVP isn't about cannibalizing kingdoms and killing other/new/pmks. PVP is about the rush, the fun people have. If PVPers rushed to smash every other kingdom, there would be NO PVP because there would be nobody TO PVP. Also, the community on PVP I can tell you can be MUCH more rewarding. It forces you to act as a group, to support each other, to help each other. You have high bow-making skills but can't make a maul that'll dent a turtle? Make some kingdom bows and get a few free imps from others to equip yourself with some weapons. You aren't a priest? Ask one of your kingdom-mates for some casts, which they gladly do, and do them a favor by chopping some veggies in return.

 

Do I think everyday people should get the option to make their own banners and wagons? No. I think that it's necessary to keep it to kingdoms only. Not because I don't love collecting these pieces. But because that would make the game way over-saturated in banners and wagons that may or may not be an eyesore, it would take away the opportunity for PVP kingdoms to make up the cost of creating a pmk and the pride you get from wearing your kingdom's tabard and decorating in your kingdom's colors. No risk... no reward.

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You'll get an eye-sore only if you look at them all, all day long, but at the end of the day.. players do what they do.. and looking at wagons probably can't be called a fraction of the activities they can be doing in the game.

All comes down to kingdom funding with it's unique content.. if there's no other alternative to get such goods like custom designs for few items to decorate with.. besides that they hold no additional value like speed/size/volume/durability or other specific bonus to kingdom goods.

 

If it was "just pride" of wearing certain banner/barding/ and such.. there would be that kingdom specific branding which actually makes you proud because your kingdom holds control over 60% of the map or something like that.. which does in some way give you more power on the pvp server. But no..

 

It all comes down to ways to control money generation.

 

IF pvp was actually for funz and gigles.. there would be no token draining, stealing could be a thing.. for all or part of the items.. and have a few impossible to touch... gear could be a non-drop, that way you'd have a lot more fun fighting way more often with people in a much more commonly known pvp raids at specific times of the day.. every day and so on.. but wurm pvp is just not like that.. it's an exchange of wealth. 

 

I'm NOT trying to change anything.. but I'm not a fan of the out of proportion sugarcoating..

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I'm not sugarcoating. That is literally my entire experience while PVPing. All for fun, to break up the monotony of Freedom. And in terms of eye-sore... not everyone is a graphics designer is what I mean. If it were available to everyone to make custom banners and wagons, we may get some cool ones yes. But there will also be people creating things that are not eye-catching or attractive in any way. Plus the issues with others using copyrighted images in their personal created banners and stuff, which would make even more work for the team responsible for removing and/or changing the images in game and dealing with the legal problems that accidentally importing copyrighted material into the game could bring.

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Granted, we CAN have those problems with the system now, BUT there's far fewer than if everyone and their mother created their own custom content.

 

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Heeey what i hear here xD ho to Chaos and make your own PMK to bring your design? :D 
not so long time ago, i did that, and so much people was upsad of it, now same names suggest this xD haha 

That's really funny

However i always was +1 for idea to give deeds / alliances prems to make they own graphic. 

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55 minutes ago, DemonaNightshade said:

I'm not sugarcoating. That is literally my entire experience while PVPing. All for fun, to break up the monotony of Freedom. And in terms of eye-sore... not everyone is a graphics designer is what I mean. If it were available to everyone to make custom banners and wagons, we may get some cool ones yes. But there will also be people creating things that are not eye-catching or attractive in any way. Plus the issues with others using copyrighted images in their personal created banners and stuff, which would make even more work for the team responsible for removing and/or changing the images in game and dealing with the legal problems that accidentally importing copyrighted material into the game could bring.

True, but that's possible to fix, for example make payment for deed / alliance desing not 100s but 500s (then it's will be not so cool to make crippy design, and try to push it) and however pvp kingdom design aint really save from trouble with ugly graphic ;) 
Also can be only 2 or 3 free changes of graphic. I mean for example i buy for my deed  this possibility and create my own graphic list of everything, like wagon, tent's banners and so, and ask to load it, for example graphic that i made have troubles with copyrighting, then i can switch to another grpahic 1 or 2 more times for free, after that i will need to pay extra for changes. 
Yeah all of that will give more work for team, but also that will give some money on new developments. In the end we can calculate how many issues can happen : 1) im not happy with my graphic (some things looks not like i was imagin), 2) Team not happy with my graphic course of copyrighting issues, 3) all happy and i just decided to change my graphic (1 time for free). for that possible to hire 1 guy who will be responsable for solving this troubles, with not really hard actions, but on another side (again) that will give some money to dev team, to push game up :) 

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On 3/20/2020 at 11:00 PM, Etherdrifter said:

Definitely a LOT less than the 429 non-PvP players.

Your point?

 

His point clearly is that PvP players make a not insignificant share of the Wurm playerbase. And the conclusion that all non Chaos dwellers are "non PvP players" is faulty. A large part of them came from Epic, or have played on Chaos for quite a time, with a non known share intending to do so or to do so again in the future.

 

Creating artificial divides in the community is wrong.

 

As to the question of creating wagon and banner decorations outside of PvP, the question seems complex. PMK, and the right to create kingdom related designs, have been features of the PvP part of Wurm since the beginnings, and contributed quite a lot to keep WO afloat. With the decreasing significance of PvP in Wurm it is of course legitimate to raise the question whether that creation privilege should remain with the PvP domain or not. For the time being, and in the wake of the steam launch and a possible renaissance of PvP activity at least there, it would seem unwise to me to implement such a change which is likely to choke PvP activities. YMMV

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my concern is when everyone has to load 200 different textures made from cringy stock images how will it affect game performance/usage and the extremely poor method of adding textures to wurm.  no one loves having to relog all of their accounts to get timmys new hot pink wagon with corndogs in the game

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2 hours ago, Ekcin said:

 

His point clearly is that PvP players make a not insignificant share of the Wurm playerbase. And the conclusion that all non Chaos dwellers are "non PvP players" is faulty. A large part of them came from Epic, or have played on Chaos for quite a time, with a non known share intending to do so or to do so again in the future.

No, that isn't the point at all.  He just held up a number in the hopes of disproving the "PvP players are a small minority" argument, which it didn't really do because, as you have pointed out, any number raised is faulty because it is buried in assumption.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Ekcin said:

As to the question of creating wagon and banner decorations outside of PvP, the question seems complex. PMK, and the right to create kingdom related designs, have been features of the PvP part of Wurm since the beginnings, and contributed quite a lot to keep WO afloat. With the decreasing significance of PvP in Wurm it is of course legitimate to raise the question whether that creation privilege should remain with the PvP domain or not. For the time being, and in the wake of the steam launch and a possible renaissance of PvP activity at least there, it would seem unwise to me to implement such a change which is likely to choke PvP activities. YMMV

The trouble here is that this begs the question, why was it only a feature of PvP and not PvE from the start?  To argue that it would choke PvP activities again begs the question why; surely if there were a "renaissance of PvP" then the increased player count would bring in a larger pool to fund PvP?  One could argue that such a change should be implemented forthwith, to avoid this possibly stunting a "renaissance of PvP"?
 

 

1 hour ago, MrGARY said:

my concern is when everyone has to load 200 different textures made from cringy stock images how will it affect game performance/usage and the extremely poor method of adding textures to wurm.  no one loves having to relog all of their accounts to get timmys new hot pink wagon with corndogs in the game

The same artistic issues have not occurred for chaos Kingdoms, even those founded by single players looking to get rich.  If someone is going to drop $150 (or higher, given that I do agree the cost on freedom should be higher due to risk/reward factors), they're probably not adverse to dropping a bit more to make sure their design can be sold to recoup some of that loss.

On a technical level, let us say PvP does see a boom with the steam release; will we have to load 200 extra PvP kingdom textures?  Many of which will be ugly?


The crux here is that the argument against PvE access to unique emblems is the same argument one can make against PvP.  It only holds up if the PvP playerbase is significiantly smaller than the PvE one (lessening the probability of negative impact); however this then provides the counter-argument I've made in earlier posts.  The whole argument essentially becomes either get rid of custom kingdom graphics, or give them to everyone (just up the price for PvE, since you'd be justified there as setting one up on Chaos requires additional materials/defenders etc).

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2 minutes ago, Etherdrifter said:

The same artistic issues have not occurred for chaos Kingdoms

 

because there have been so few kingdoms at all because it's just simply not feasible to make them

 

2 minutes ago, Etherdrifter said:

On a technical level, let us say PvP does see a boom with the steam release; will we have to load 200 extra PvP kingdom textures?  Many of which will be ugly?

 

no, we won't, because it's not physically possible to fit more than even just a small handful of legitimate kingdoms on pvp servers

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4 hours ago, MrGARY said:

my concern is when everyone has to load 200 different textures made from cringy stock images how will it affect game performance/usage and the extremely poor method of adding textures to wurm.  no one loves having to relog all of their accounts to get timmys new hot pink wagon with corndogs in the game

It's not like we do like all existing designs for 1 or another reason, should we stop playing the game because some wagon designs and flags exist already? huh 😆, probably no

 

Loading and using only the needed to render is another thing... if the client loads absolutely every single one of the items that exist in the game in the memory.. it's probably unoptimized of the memory, and could be improved to load and show what you actually see and to preload only what you have near you, etc.

 

pmk/pvp/ wagons are in no way unique with other than being currently the only way to get such in the game.

Suggestion here is to have non pvp wagons.. anything pvp related is kind of offtopic.. if you have concern that these are going to mess with the economy that winds around pmk craftable items.. lets talk about that.. rest is pretty much dev decision if they can manage looking at 1 image and to pick to approve it or not more often at the cost of making more money..

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6 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

No, that isn't the point at all.  He just held up a number in the hopes of disproving the "PvP players are a small minority" argument, which it didn't really do because, as you have pointed out, any number raised is faulty because it is buried in assumption.

 

You brought up PvE vs PvP population... he didn't.

 

You also blindly see 400 people on freedom and 50 on Chaos (give or take) and automatically assume that only 1/8th of the population is involved in PvP.   Some of those 400 people are directly supporting PvP on Chaos (myself included), some of us playing multiple accounts even.

 

TL:DR - Population is both a weak and false argument.  

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1 hour ago, Wargasm said:

 

You brought up PvE vs PvP population... he didn't.

 

You also blindly see 400 people on freedom and 50 on Chaos (give or take) and automatically assume that only 1/8th of the population is involved in PvP.   Some of those 400 people are directly supporting PvP on Chaos (myself included), some of us playing multiple accounts even.

 

TL:DR - Population is both a weak and false argument.  

 

Thats nice; doesn't really add anything to the debate since I already made that point but, you do you?

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I'd love the ability to make my own wagon and banner design, but I also sort of get the PMK aspect of all of that as well. But, it is kind of frustrating to hear the entitled-sounding PVP side of the game talking about ganging up and making plans to smash any Freedomer that thinks about going to Chaos to found a kingdom in order to have the ability to have that personalized banner/wagon feature of the game for themselves. Makes me wish they would come up with a way for players to personalize their wagons and banners without having to deal with that mess.

Personally I'd be happy with a blank canvas that would allow for dying the body and trim of the wagon canvas, and have the option to roll the canvas up so it can't be seen when I don't want it on there- but that is an already made suggestion in another post.

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Well, I have wish to try to clear all this mess. 
1) Arguments, about 'design of t-shirts can be ugly, and that will no look's like a part of game' < we have possibility to make it even right now with making PMK, I personaly can come to Chaos, make PMK and create very ugly design for it. Even now, so that's not really good argument.
2) I see here 2 directions : ( 1. Pvp Kingdoms need more money, than freedom alliances. 2. Possibility to add graphic that you want in this game. ) How about give another source of money for PvPers, like idk Hota will produce not only statues, also some new nice Lamps, or glowing shards, or something that unable to get at freedom. Also maybe some Medals or other jews that you can get by geting special level of rank (pvp). Here also point that to make it people will need actionaly pvp, not just creating they own t-shirts at deed. 
3) To make PMK at Chaos you may be killed. that will happend after i will make PMK (really small chance to get killed till you making tower), and i doubt that 50 players of Chaos will check borders, if i making wagons right in water or not. So tbh, i can not die even single time. But as long as at Chaos PMK cost 254.5s (25 players x 8 silver prem + 50 silver for decloration + deed cost 4.5s~) — at Freedom it can cost about 2 times more, so that will make sence to dont waste money on a bad graphic.
4) In a past silver was able to be sold for real money, so that's explain why people was upsad about possibility to sell kingdom stuff, and get money. Now it's ingame money.

=========================================
5) about good sides : I think possibility to make own graphic for alliances or deeds can really help dev team with money, to grow wurm on a different level. In pvp direction aswell. That will bring more people to game, and in the end to pvp.
Other question do PvP players wish have more people at Chaos? Do you want PvP changes? Or you enjoy how it is atm? 

Edited by Gofs

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4 minutes ago, Gofs said:

or other jews that you can get by geting special level of rank

why would getting kills in pvp convert me to judaism

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7 minutes ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

why would getting kills in pvp convert me to judaism

hahaha :) 
My bad :D I mean jewelry just might short it incorrect, sor

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I'm still trying to wrap my mind around this part.. who's going to spend 2-3-500 euro for pixel-wagon factory license in wurm..

but carry on, nothing to see here, just a random guy wondering about the ideas in past 2 pages🤔

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I've considered making a PMK with no real chance of winning any PvP just to make a wagon "for the lulz". Its not that big a deal when it costs the same as going out for a dinner for two. Go on a date or buy a wagon in wurm, either way you're throwing away money. At least the wagon will last more than a night. =]

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On 3/20/2020 at 6:51 PM, Wargasm said:

So... you're suggesting something that already exists.

 

No, they are not. They are suggesting that Freedomers can create own textures, as alliance or otherwise, which is not a feature. Don't be obtuse. What you are proposing is an alternative way of achieving the same goal.

At which point I have to ask, what do you think of the Crow Kingdom?

 

Oh right

You were totally fine with a suggestion gatekeeping PMK stuff further so they can exactly not do as you suggest here.

So, would you be fine with freedom banners if this had become a thing or are you just laughably hypocritical?

 

 

In any case, the constant "you can already do it, except you cannot, really" is a poor rebuttal that is way too often employed on this forum. There are way better reasons why Freedom cannot have the level of customization as PMKs do, which stem from the vastly greater diversity this would spawn.

There is the technical issue that MrGary mentions, and perhaps the aesthetic concern, though that seems like a stretch if the entry price is as high as on Chaos.

The dev team would also simply not be able to keep up with the vetting process.

 

I do recall a suggestion in this general topic for Freedom to not be able to submit a fully customized texture, but to choose from a primary/secondary logo with color modifications as many other MMOs do, which was also positively received, even as a "better than nothing". No submission process required, and no reason to gatekeep it further than some creation fee.

Give an option to disable Freedom custom textures so you can enter an impalong without your dusty old GPU getting a heatstroke and I see a reasonable compromise.

Edited by Flubb
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6 hours ago, Gofs said:

I think possibility to make own graphic for alliances or deeds can really help dev team with money, to grow wurm on a different level.

Why is everyone mentioning money aspect? As far as I know, payment for WO servers is very low and as far as I know, most of staff is working as a volunteers, so where this all money from prems and silvers bought in game store goes?

 

6 hours ago, Gofs said:

4) In a past silver was able to be sold for real money, so that's explain why people was upsad about possibility to sell kingdom stuff, and get money. Now it's ingame money.

No, It is not only that.

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1 hour ago, Flubb said:

 

No, they are not. They are suggesting that Freedomers can create own textures, as alliance or otherwise, which is not a feature. Don't be obtuse. What you are proposing is an alternative way of achieving the same goal.

At which point I have to ask, what do you think of the Crow Kingdom?

 

Oh right

You were totally fine with a suggestion gatekeeping PMK stuff further so they can exactly not do as you suggest here.

So, would you be fine with freedom banners if this had become a thing or are you just laughably hypocritical?

 

 

In any case, the constant "you can already do it, except you cannot, really" is a poor rebuttal that is way too often employed on this forum. There are way better reasons why Freedom cannot have the level of customization as PMKs do, which stem from the vastly greater diversity this would spawn.

There is the technical issue that MrGary mentions, and perhaps the aesthetic concern, though that seems like a stretch if the entry price is as high as on Chaos.

The dev team would also simply not be able to keep up with the vetting process.

 

I do recall a suggestion in this general topic for Freedom to not be able to submit a fully customized texture, but to choose from a primary/secondary logo with color modifications as many other MMOs do, which was also positively received, even as a "better than nothing". No submission process required, and no reason to gatekeep it further than some creation fee.

Give an option to disable Freedom custom textures so you can enter an impalong without your dusty old GPU getting a heatstroke and I see a reasonable compromise.

Seems as good compromise, if PvPers have they own grpahic, they can have it, and be happy, that will be unique. And for Freedom can make some choice of some loaded textures to also have they own unique marker, but than i think it will be unable for sale wich is also will be fair. +1 on it :) 

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1 hour ago, Flubb said:

In any case, the constant "you can already do it, except you cannot, really" is a poor rebuttal that is way too often employed on this forum. There are way better reasons why Freedom cannot have the level of customization as PMKs do, which stem from the vastly greater diversity this would spawn.

There is the technical issue that MrGary mentions, and perhaps the aesthetic concern, though that seems like a stretch if the entry price is as high as on Chaos.

The dev team would also simply not be able to keep up with the vetting process.

 

I do recall a suggestion in this general topic for Freedom to not be able to submit a fully customized texture, but to choose from a primary/secondary logo with color modifications as many other MMOs do, which was also positively received, even as a "better than nothing". No submission process required, and no reason to gatekeep it further than some creation fee.

Give an option to disable Freedom custom textures so you can enter an impalong without your dusty old GPU getting a heatstroke and I see a reasonable compromise.

No? why.. there's NO issue

The 'license' could be a timed one.. and only a few could be possible to purchase at a time.., being sold at a fixed price or with auction principle... say there are 10 slots.. and either all are up for bidding at the same time or could be even 'better' in a row or releasing few slots from time to time to get the impatient to bid higher and higher to be one of the few able to get their design in the game.

 

Question is how long and how many, can the game cope with many different designs existing in the world..

Some might start to bug us with the memory issues and so on... or download size. come on.. graphics jar is what(pmk.jar is 11mb lol), graphics.jar = 858mb; what's funnier is .. test_graphics that nearly nobody ever uses are same size.. 850mb that just sits there.. but wait.. also... if you have potato pc or run many alts.. you probably run low_memory settings profile? How does that work with 500mb ram for java memory limit while.. graphics is bigger, probably it doesn't keep it all in the memory like all the boogie-people claim? * additionally there are normal and test 276mb x2 of sound archives; and wurm's still incredibly small game.. compared to nowdays 40-100gb 'regular' downloads of titles that you usually play on your breaks or have seen posters/ads/etc somewhere about them... 

 

What did we learn.. nothing to fear.. if you want it do be done - it can be...

..well if you do NOT on the other hand.. - maybe it won't be.. 

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3 minutes ago, Finnn said:

Some might start to bug us with the memory issues and so on... or download size. come on.. graphics jar is what(pmk.jar is 11mb lol), graphics.jar = 858mb; what's funnier is .. test_graphics that nearly nobody ever uses are same size.. 850mb that just sits there.. but wait.. also... if you have potato pc or run many alts.. you probably run low_memory settings profile? How does that work with 500mb ram for java memory limit while.. graphics is bigger, probably it doesn't keep it all in the memory like all the boogie-people claim? * additionally there are normal and test 276mb x2 of sound archives; and wurm's still incredibly small game.. compared to nowdays 40-100gb 'regular' downloads of titles that you usually play on your breaks or have seen posters/ads/etc somewhere about them... 

how ram and cpu usage is related to weight of game?

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