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Supermastermind

Unique creature - private slaying is unfair

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1 hour ago, Wurmfarm said:

This is gonna a fun **** show when steam servers come out then cause im sure they are going to be a huge server (much like xan) 

It has already been confirmed that it will be the size of Indy. 

It's not like anyone is going to be concerned about killing uniques when the server launches, anyways.

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12 hours ago, Jore said:

It's not like anyone is going to be concerned about killing uniques when the server launches, anyways.

 

Yes, they will.  When a new server launches, all the uniques are alive (historically speaking, anyway).  And since there are now 5 drakes, 5 dragons, and (4?) humanoid uniques, while people may not be in a rush to kill them, people are certainly going to be in a hurry to pen them up for later slaying.

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And the ones who pen them will be a few veteran players which will corner the market in no time, thus gating "end-game" content for new inexperienced players. 

Will that have a positive experience for the new blood coming in on steam? Doubt it. I just see a wave of negative reviews how "exploitative"  the game can be. Fix damn uniques hunting. 

 

#NOMOREPENNING

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16 hours ago, elentari said:

And the ones who pen them will be a few veteran players which will corner the market in no time, thus gating "end-game" content for new inexperienced players. 

Will that have a positive experience for the new blood coming in on steam? Doubt it. I just see a wave of negative reviews how "exploitative"  the game can be. Fix damn uniques hunting. 

 

#NOMOREPENNING

Exactly its going to be an issue instantly. 

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14 hours ago, Wurmfarm said:

Exactly its going to be an issue instantly. 

On 5/26/2020 at 8:23 AM, elentari said:

And the ones who pen them will be a few veteran players which will corner the market in no time, thus gating "end-game" content for new inexperienced players. 

Will that have a positive experience for the new blood coming in on steam? Doubt it. I just see a wave of negative reviews how "exploitative"  the game can be. Fix damn uniques hunting. 

 

#NOMOREPENNING

These two posts have changed my outlook on this.

Sack off penning, I want to watch 100 accounts without even 50 fight skill to bumrush a dragon and get absolutely nae nae'd into the sky Team Rocket style because they have 0 idea on what to do, how to do it and the lack of skill or communication to do so

Edited by Madnath
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Trial and err is a time honored tradition in gaming. Its' how many learn what can cannot be accomplished. What gives us higher skilled players the right to deny lesser skilled players that option by hoarding the uniques? So what if they mess up? It's a game let them play!

 

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It seems like there is a push for uniques to be closer to a standard MMO raid system - which I think completely devalues the experience and the items that the unique drops. Look at the end game gear/equipment for all other MMO's and you'll see its stale, it's a rock up once a week/fortnight style of thing, barely do you part as others carry you, then walk home with some goods you probably don't even deserve. (Paying a subscription doesn't entitle you to receive the benefits others do if you are not putting the work they are doing in. That's just called being entitled and lazy). We already have like 90% of the discussions on rifts in the forums and game chat being reasons why a system like that would suck.

 

If you feel gatekept away from the amazing loot they drop, which appears to be the main problem here, not the actual experience of hunting the unique which hasn't been mentioned or was sparsely mentioned...here are some solutions;

 

1. Use your other skills to make silver to buy the gear - you can see its always being sold in Trade. Maybe even just buy a high QL plate set? Yeah your movement takes a hit but we all ran around in Rune before we could afford Dragon ;)

2. Barter goods and services towards acquiring this gear - bartering is popular, I have received high enchanted rare tools purely by trading mundane objects to those too lazy to do it themselves. I have seen this actively happen even with dragon/scale in trade chat.

3. Spend the time, effort and silver that those hunting and penning these uniques are spending. Looking at the standard set up that those penning seem to use, it starts to look like just keeping the unique contained sits at around 7+ silver. If you can't afford the silver, bad luck, refer to #1 and #2. If you can afford the silver and are lacking the time...make friends with others interested in that goal and strive towards it, as no-one is stopping you from joining in on this behaviour. 

 

Hunting and Penning uniques is costly in both Silver and Time - It requires the participation and help of multiple players who are all on the same wave length. Those that have set up teams to do this must have started with great difficulty and have honed their skills and practices to do so - That is something that should be applauded, not whinged about. They have hit a higher stage in the game than you have where they have the resources and friends to hunt these uniques with. Look at other MMOs, look at their end game content, look at how only 0.1% of the players reach it. It doesn't mean its a problem, its something you can actively work towards. It's okay if you don't, but its not fare to dismiss their hard work purely because you feel left out. That isn't a problem with the game, if anything its a problem with your mentality...hell maybe even greed looking at some comments here. Literally every other MMO ever requires you to - outside of the games auto party systems - find and develop relationships with other players to achieve these rewards and content. It's no different.

 

 If you are unable to generate the silver to buy the equipment, list it down as an 'end goal' objective for yourself and work towards it. You have time, it's not going away.  Imho - The systems working as intended...and if it was that bad..why do we see community mods/staff in the Niarja list of players killing the private slays? ;) If it was a problem, don't you think they'd recognise it by now? Also just because you came 2nd or 3rd in a race (i.e you didn't get to pen the unique yourself) doesn't mean you were denied that content or denied a chance. You had the chance, and you lost. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Blazecraze said:

Hunting and Penning

That's kind of the issue as a game design feature in Wurm. The "penning" part. Can you imagine how this game design would look for world bosses in other games? Kazzak or Green Dragons in WoW Classic for instance, which for the unfamiliar are world bosses accessible to all. Any guild can try them, but you can't pen them. You can tag them and pull them and  lock them for your raid during the fight but that's it. That's good game design. Everyone gets a shot but those that aren't prepared & coordinated will get punished.

 

The fact is, "penning" denies access to others.  You can't pen bosses in other games, but Wurm allows it. And look at all the drama it causes. It's just a way of saying "I'm paying silvers to get this phat loot" so other's can't get it, then I dictate the market price. Do you honestly believe once WO comes on Steam, there won't be a few wurmians with a lot of experience, working together to bumrush uniques, pen them and sell their scales for ludicrous prices or just hoard those uniques for themselves, thus devaluing the entire playerbase experience?

 

How would it look like if in WoW classic, once a guild does Naxxramas or AQ40 no other guild can attempt it for 2 weeks? I assure you most raiders would quit the game or become 100% disinterested in raiding overall.

 

 

3 hours ago, Blazecraze said:

3. Spend the time, effort and silver that those hunting and penning these uniques are spending.

 

Here's the issue with this logic. You *HAVE* to be online the minute a unique spawns. That's timegated content right there. In other "standard MMOS" you can raid/do dungeons whenever you like, be it noon, 3 am or 7 PM . You aren't being forced to play at a certain hour to be allowed to experience end game content.

Another thing that bothers me. Even with RMT gone silvers still mean RL money. There's no two ways about it since it can be bought with it. Spending RL money (aka silvers) ON TOP of a subscription service to experience end game content (by penning uniques) is simply a shitty way to design a game, worthy of the entire mobile gaming industry that gates everything through micro or macro transactions. This entire approach creates a market that allows people to dictate whatever price they want for a bunch of pixels randomly generated on a map and honestly it's just a sad reminder how real life works and that's not the reason I'd like to play Wurm. I don't want to play wurm just to be reminded how shitty monopolies are.

 

Personally I'd buff up uniques, make them bigger and have them work more like bosses in other games. Can't pen them, loot is character bound (aka you have to earn it, no more buying end game content), which btw is the approach all decent MMO's have. NO one should be able to buy end game content. It devalues the work of those that actually put in the hours to get them. Again , I'm referencing crappy mobile games here. Wurm shouldn't have this approach. And if it becomes such, sure it's probably gonna make a profit, cause that's just how the market is. But it won't be a game I'll be spending money on.

 

Oh and here's my last argument. "Group X", "Group Y" & "Group Z" dedicate their time to pen uniques kill them and set their price for me if I want to buy scales. I'm basically at the mercy of a small monopoly just so I can experience this wonderful set of armour other people have worked towards denying it to others. Sorry. I'm just tired of the same self-serving arguments that "people should spend time and effort" when it mostly comes down to greed really.

 

Wurm Online's demographic is still made by working people mostly aged 24 and up. It's not made of teens or kids spending their daddy's credit card on items like other games out there. People play on their limited free time. Content should be made available for all, not just select groups of people who dedicate themselves to gating uniques to others.

 

As for the argument "but there are random public slayings all the time". Oh yeah, cool. I see an army of 200 alts just so I can get 0.01 kg of scales. Just 1000 more dragons and I'll be able to afford my own set that way.

 

Let's face it. Unique game design is broken AF and needs to be changed. A dragon shouldn't be like a pet you lock up in a mine and suddenly it's too stupid to get out of waiting its demise at the hand of 20 players with huge axes. The lizard should just fly away (reasonable approach) once the mine is open or incinerate everyone out of spite. I'm done with this inane system.

 

Good game design is done by earning items/content on your own free time and NOT if you are lucky enough to experience it.

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3 hours ago, elentari said:

You *HAVE* to be online the minute a unique spawns

the notification was removed like a year ago, you dont get told when uniques spawn

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4 hours ago, elentari said:

snip

 

Or you could... you know, just go back to WoW, since that's obviously the game you want here. They're two different games that work very differently, and that's okay--not everything needs to be homogenized to the point it isn't worth playing. The modern MMO market has already been ruined by that crap, and modern MMOs can keep it.

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3 hours ago, elentari said:

 Any guild can try them, but you can't pen them. You can tag them and pull them and  lock them for your raid during the fight but that's it. That's good game design. Everyone gets a shot but those that aren't prepared & coordinated will get punished.

 

No, instead they either kill you in PvP, or multiple guilds will chain pass the aggro until the guilds they aren't working with leave the area, reset and kill the boss after forming new raids to ensure their cores get the drops. The loot is dispersed between the guilds by trading real life money instead, which was really relevant in classic and BC and is still relevant today, especially on the bigger servers. Not to mention, if someone not in the syndicate gets the tag and they start to drop the boss, it's not uncommon for the server to just..ya know..'time out' for a bit.

 

3 hours ago, elentari said:

How would it look like if in WoW classic, once a guild does Naxxramas or AQ40 no other guild can attempt it for 2 weeks? I assure you most raiders would quit the game or become 100% disinterested in raiding overall.

 

As a 97+ parse Mage/Rogue/Warrior I would welcome this entirely. It will allow myself and my guild to stay relevant, at the top of the game, and continue to dominate by reducing the spread of OP raid gear so we can compete for best clears or PVP. Great idea actually, would love to see it implemented especially come BC.

 

3 hours ago, elentari said:

 

Another thing that bothers me. Even with RMT gone silvers still mean RL money. There's no two ways about it since it can be bought with it.

 

I returned to the game this Feb/March after 6 years off and purchased premium, my bank is almost at 100 silver over my few accounts purely from stone bricks, mortar and moments of inspiration. I would have to disagree with this purely from the aspect that besides the silver to purchase my deed and my premiums, 100% of my 90ql 5 enchant weapons, 90ql steel armour and my bank have all come from producing bulk resources that -Every- player has access to, even free to play.

 

3 hours ago, elentari said:

 This entire approach creates a market that allows people to dictate whatever price they want for a bunch of pixels randomly generated on a map and honestly it's just a sad reminder how real life works and that's not the reason I'd like to play Wurm. I don't want to play wurm just to be reminded how shitty monopolies are.

 

Wurm is an open world sandbox with a player driven economy. What you are talking about here is one of the best features of the game. You work hard, decide on what your pixels are worth, and others will purchase your pixels with their pixels.

 

3 hours ago, elentari said:

 

Personally I'd buff up uniques, make them bigger and have them work more like bosses in other games. Can't pen them, loot is character bound (aka you have to earn it, no more buying end game content), which btw is the approach all decent MMO's have. NO one should be able to buy end game content.

 

One of the best features of Wurm is that you can become so good/efficient at something that you don't need to be good/efficient in other fields and thus can purchase them. Being able to grind your money maker and then purchase dragon is just as much as an achievable goal is attending enough slayings to have a set crafted . For example - I make bulk building materials really fast and efficiently, and can bring in a few silver (On good days right after a fresh equipment imp I can bring in roughly 8s) a day on a weekend (Before quarantine and once its completely gone - which is in my area now, I work 6 days a week, 10-12 hours a day - I am not someone that can be on Wurm all day.) By doing so, I am able to afford high QL enchanted armour and weapons that enables me access to this end game content, or if I felt like it, just grind enough to outright purchase the armour itself. That is one of the beauties of Wurm, by forcing character bound loot, you would lock Wurm back into another weekly RNG based MMO like all the others where you can be stuck for months to years at a time without actually improving your characters armour...and if dragon was locked behind character bound loot, then I assume good weapons would be too..and why not high ql materials while we're at it? 

 

3 hours ago, elentari said:

 

Oh and here's my last argument. "Group X", "Group Y" & "Group Z" dedicate their time to pen uniques kill them and set their price for me if I want to buy scales. I'm basically at the mercy of a small monopoly just so I can experience this wonderful set of armour other people have worked towards denying it to others. Sorry. I'm just tired of the same self-serving arguments that "people should spend time and effort" when it mostly comes down to greed really.

 

Ya know, I am sounding like a broken record here, but wanting to enjoy the armour other people have worked hard for without working hard for it yourself kinda sounds greedy.

 

 

3 hours ago, elentari said:

 

Wurm Online's demographic is still made by working people mostly aged 24 and up. It's not made of teens or kids spending their daddy's credit card on items like other games out there. People play on their limited free time. Content should be made available for all, not just select groups of people who dedicate themselves to gating uniques to others.

 

I feel you so much on this post. I am for sure one of them, most of my week is dominated by work and long public transportation time (that vision impaired life.) 
However, I disagree that the content is not currently available to all. I believe it is available to everyone. I also wouldn't consider those doing private slaying as 'gating'. Have you tried joining a slaying team, or making your own? I might not even need you to answer that judging by your opinion.

 

 

3 hours ago, elentari said:

 

As for the argument "but there are random public slayings all the time". Oh yeah, cool. I see an army of 200 alts just so I can get 0.01 kg of scales. Just 1000 more dragons and I'll be able to afford my own set that way.

 

I am surprised you didn't like this. - I remember having to do the same Mythic raid 49 weeks in a row and never even received the trinket I was after for the entire span of the raid and expansions lifetime on WoW. Hell, it's been 14 years and Ashes of Alar still hasn't dropped for me and I try that 10 times a week and have done for 12 years. Receiving 0.01kg of scales for showing up is at least a guarantee of getting -something- unlike the MMO you've referenced twice so far. 

 

 

3 hours ago, elentari said:

Good game design is done by earning items/content on your own free time and NOT if you are lucky enough to experience it.

100% agree here Elentari. And you can earn that by either making enough silver to buy it, or forming a private slaying party and joining in on the fun yourself :)

 

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12 hours ago, Madnath said:

I want to watch 100 accounts without even 50 fight skill to bumrush a dragon and get absolutely nae nae'd into the sky

 

NTbjSYx.jpg

 

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3 hours ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

the notification was removed like a year ago, you dont get told when uniques spawn

Kind of shows how little the people complaining actually know really

 

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15 hours ago, Blazecraze said:

why do we see community mods/staff in the Niarja list of players killing the private slays?

Well that's going to be a fun can of worms.

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3 minutes ago, Etherdrifter said:

Well that's going to be a fun can of worms.

I don't think it's even a can of worms. Like it or not, mods and staff are players too, and if it's an intended feature, they're more than welcome to use and take part in it.

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1 hour ago, Madnath said:

I don't think it's even a can of worms. Like it or not, mods and staff are players too, and if it's an intended feature, they're more than welcome to use and take part in it.

To be honest, when they are the ones that set the rules regarding it, its pretty shady how they have doubled down on private slaying rulemaking in a way that most benefits their selected few. Something something conflict of interest.

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1 hour ago, Angelklaine said:

To be honest, when they are the ones that set the rules regarding it, its pretty shady how they have doubled down on private slaying rulemaking in a way that most benefits their selected few. Something something conflict of interest.

Not at all. There was already lots of drama and issues in regards to how uniques are "claimed" and rules on how it should be done were already long overdue.

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On 5/27/2020 at 1:47 AM, Madnath said:

These two posts have changed my outlook on this.

Sack off penning, I want to watch 100 accounts without even 50 fight skill to bumrush a dragon and get absolutely nae nae'd into the sky Team Rocket style because they have 0 idea on what to do, how to do it and the lack of skill or communication to do so

And that's exactly what's not the issue,  any of those 100 toons gonna be naed by a troll anyways and that's fine, who cares

Are you going to kill the dragon then, with your madskillz and communication at 50 fs? Penning and waiting for the boyz to grow up is not really a rocket science

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37 minutes ago, Tor said:

And that's exactly what's not the issue,  any of those 100 toons gonna be naed by a troll anyways and that's fine, who cares

Are you going to kill the dragon then, with your madskillz and communication at 50 fs? Penning and waiting for the boyz to grow up is not really a rocket science

But the idea of penning and letting grown up accounts is exactly what these people hate lol

 

Or rather, the idea that they just want to sit on deed and be spoonfed their endgame content.

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1 minute ago, Madnath said:

But the idea of penning and letting grown up accounts is exactly what these people hate lol

 

Or rather, the idea that they just want to sit on deed and be spoonfed their endgame content.

Oh yeah, i was kinda off topic, in context of the "fresh" new server steam experience

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5 hours ago, Madnath said:

Not at all. There was already lots of drama and issues in regards to how uniques are "claimed" and rules on how it should be done were already long overdue.

 

1 hour ago, Madnath said:

But the idea of penning and letting grown up accounts is exactly what these people hate lol

 

Or rather, the idea that they just want to sit on deed and be spoonfed their endgame content.

I have no problem with people hunting them getting their fair reward in the current system. But that is precisely the problem. Hunting uniques, although fun for them, is not the same as penning them. You get a chance to participate in this activity once ever ~2 weeks give or take? That means only a single group can claim/benefit from it. 

 

Imagine if there's 5 separate groups going for the same unique in the same server. People spend hours running around looking for said unique every day. THen one group finds it. Everyone else? Well they got to wait until next one spawns which can take quite a while. Assuming each group gets an unique each in turn, we're talking about once a month you get to participate in end game content.

 

That's BS. No ifs or buts about it. Before people were able to at least get -something- for their trouble when another group claimed it by just being in local. Now not even that. Now if you were not able to pen them, then everyone could participate. But then that would take away from hunting in the first place.

 

I get it, I know its a terrible situation for everyone involved. But the issue is you HAVE to be on these groups to obtain end game gear. This shouldn't be the case. The solution? Add more ways to obtain said gear, such as having lesser, but more frequently spawned monsters drop, or items given through valeri missions or something of the like, that allows even those who can't hunt uniques participate and get these desired items.

 

But the manner in which that rule was implemented and how quickly it happened becuase there were staff involved? Yeah it left me scratching my beard.

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21 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

But the manner in which that rule was implemented and how quickly it happened becuase there were staff involved? Yeah it left me scratching my beard.

I can get where you're coming from for sure, and you're one of the few not trying to demonise people in the groups or actually hunting or penning, so I respect that.

But this staff stuff is weird. Staff in these unique kills are not new. There was actual drama right before the rule was made, and even more before it. Staff being at slays is easily not a factor into the rule being made most likely lol.

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3 hours ago, Madnath said:

I can get where you're coming from for sure, and you're one of the few not trying to demonise people in the groups or actually hunting or penning, so I respect that.

But this staff stuff is weird. Staff in these unique kills are not new. There was actual drama right before the rule was made, and even more before it. Staff being at slays is easily not a factor into the rule being made most likely lol.

Oh I have nothing against the people who pen uniques. Hell, if I came across an unique, I'd pen it myself and make full use of the current status quo. I don't even blame staff members from doing so. Its everyone's game and these volunteers have as much right to the uniques as anyone else. I don't have an issue with any single individual. 

My gripe is against the system itself. The current system for uniques is very lopsided and makes the whole market easily controllable. Currently there is absolutely no way to obtain a Slime of Uttacha in a reasonable way other than hunting uniques. Furthermore it makes it so no one other than a very select few can participate on literally the only end game activity in the freedom servers. I haven't been to an unique slaying  since last year, and in my 4+ years of playng Wurm, and have been to a total of 6 unique slayings in my entire Wurm career, not counting the ones on Chaos (kingdom slayings)

f2647bae389b20cf22d382aac02ab27a.png

Now about my comment on conflict of interest. We've had a way of doing uniques for years upon years, and there's always been confict between those involved as long as I remember. But it wasn't until there was that one disagreement between the two hunting groups, one which has staff members in it, that a decision was made to completely exclude the entire community from private hunts. Group pens a dragon? You better leave local quickly or get banned. Now, I know why they made the rule, and it almost makes sense, except that instead of making the event more accessible to everyone (a good move) they decided to restrict it even futher upon penalty of ban. I am sorry but I will never reconcile with that fact.

 

Make uniques unable to be penned, or allow the items to be aquired in other ways (perhaps ways that require more effort or take more time?). But please, don't restrict and lock the community out of these things. Its heartbreaking.

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46 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

But it wasn't until there was that one disagreement between the two hunting groups, one which has staff members in it, that a decision was made to completely exclude the entire community from private hunts

Most of the times when changes are introduced is when some of the staff pull the shorter end or a secret and not reported bug went public, it's all good otherwise

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