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Araxiel

Please change journal entry requirement(destinations unknown)

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Posted (edited)

If you share your account with 2 friends in other timezones and summon there with priest, tag 20 points (tagging still works you're not doing it right if you're not getting points) then summon back to boat you can do the goal in a few months with like 5 minutes spent per rift. that's only part of the problem and doing 100 rifts isn't long time commitment to the game, its long time commitment to RIFTS. majority of the goals let you choose what you want to do they don't force you to do one thing, and the ones that do are usually the ones people complain about (fishing, archeology, cast a rite, 70 prayer, rifts). for the improve tool/weapon/armor, they don't give you one item to imp, you can choose any from that group, the meditation path one isn't "get level 4/9 in knowledge, its 4/9 in any of them, you can choose your skill to get 99 in, you don't have to kill a certain unique, or a certain mob, or do a certain type of mission, you can choose any from that group. with rifts, you have to do the time locked rifts, you can't do rift camps, you can't go to jackal and do the camps there, there's no choice. Pretty much all the goals bar like 10 of them are things that you're going to eventually do over time not grind out, but If you don't like rifts you're either going to spend over an IRL week of time to getting this one goal done and burn out or give up on the journal completely. Comparing time spent in one goal vs another isn't a fair comparison when one is just normally playing the game and the other is time actively spent on one activity that you have to go out of your way for.

Edited by Oblivionnreaver
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Posted (edited)

Obviously I even overlooked how easy one can circumvent the obstacles to do the rift goal. So everything boils down to "don't like rifts".

 

So where is the difference to not liking massacring ten thousands of harmless creatures? I loathe killing farm animals as much as others may loathe rifts, and get deadly bored and disgusted by killing small mobs like cats and gobs. And am a lousy cook, and not extremely fond of missions (except for SB and karma) much less for having to grind fishing to 70 to get the damned 75kgh fish.

 

That said, what I like the goals for, already did with the old personal goals, is that they motivate (not force, that is silly) to do things ingame one would never have done without them. I learnt a lot due to the "useless" stuff I had to do for achieving the goals.

 

Edited by Ekcin

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Posted (edited)

how many of those things are time locked, require you to travel to other servers for 7/8 of their possible spawns, require a group to do, are borderline impossible on chaos and epic due to low participation with same spawn rates as freedom servers, and take hours per 1% of the goal assuming you're not cheesing the hell out of them

 

don't like rifts isn't even the biggest contender for reasons why 100 rifts sucks

Edited by Oblivionnreaver
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18 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

Obviously I even overlooked how easy one can circumvent the obstacles to do the rift goal. So everything boils down to "don't like rifts".

 

If when you say it boils down to not liking rifts, you really meant not liking locking your journal completion to multiple actual real life years of time if you don't dedicate your life in unhealthy ways to one single game and ignore that life and responsibilities outside wurm exists in the first place all because the task requires something that is at fixed times out of your control entirely, then yeah, I guess you've hit the nail on the head there old sport

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As to "time locked", every community event is. In fact Wurm has few community events, and it is questionable whether that is good. All community events "require a group to do".

 

Granted, Epic is a problem, Chaos not so much as there are arguably few Chaosers who do not cross to Freedom, also "other servers" quite frequently for a couple of reasons (mainly saving spoils, and selling guard towers and kingdom stuff). But yes, less easy than for Freedomers for sure.

 

But though, I am sure most priests do their praying goal on Epic, and it is still at least as much time to waste as is doing rifts, and absolutely zero fun (ok for me and all I know, but I don't rule out that someone has fun with). So cluster switch for goals is in no way unusual, and Epicers may consider a Freedom character to do the rift stuff, not perfect, sure. Btw., if anybody would have called for a rift team on Desertion, I would certainly have considered to go there, at least if someone would lend me something better than my noob gear there (or even I might have thought of crafting something better for myself).

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Then just increase it to 200 rifts so more people can burn out and quit the game. Why go half measures then? * Sarcasm *

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, elentari said:

Then just increase it to 200 rifts so more people can burn out and quit the game. Why go half measures then? * Sarcasm *

And where is the difference to pray to level 90,  cast 5 global spells, catch a 100kg fish, kill 50000 creatures, learn 750 cooking recipes, complete 500 mission, get a skill to 100 etc. ?

 

As I said, I am not opposing considerations to reduce or even drop the goal. Only I criticize the reasons given for. They are fairly unconvincing.

Edited by Ekcin

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Posted (edited)

The main reasons are of timegating and the number itself. 

 

It forces people into a certain narrow window to do rifts, which honestly is one of the most annoying game design aspects of mmos. "Do x action between 18:00 and 20:00 for super rewards". But only between that timeframe.

 

As for your example, except the global spells one, all of them are soloable really. You can do them in your own time at your own pace. But rifts? It implies modelling your patterns to something the game decides when it happens. Not to mention the insane number of hours needed to complete it. It's 12.5 days for christ's sake on top of other goals that can burn out players. 12 days for an entire journal goal. Not a chapter. But 1 goal. 300 RL hours dedicated to just that goal.

 

Do you not think it is a bit insane to impose that sacrifice vs. a reward that's semi-useful and a cape that many have equated to "a lazy design" ? This issue with rifts is that the reward in itself isn't all that tantalizing.  There's a huge imbalance here between time invested and final reward. I hope they find a better mechanic to complete that goal.

Edited by elentari
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If you do not deem it worth the reward, just drop it. The " most annoying game design aspect" is what makes a mmo a mmo, id est a game where you interact with others which includes paying attention to their time frames and time zones.

 

It is perfectly ok to resort to solipsism and hermitism in a sandbox game. But it is overblown to expect to get every reward from aspects of the game based on cooperative tasks.

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Posted (edited)

I just do not enjoy rifts nothing against them just to long and always way out of my time zone. I get their appeal not asking them to be changed I have no interest in ruining cart man's fun. Just unfortunate as I will never have that journal done not because it's hard just because times and lack of interest. An alternative to certain goals would be neat. Shouldn't remove it as people have been grinding towards it but possibly close 100 rifts OR {insert something here}

Edited by user

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I just want to say to all those in favor of this change thank you. This particular goal has had me very concerned for a while as I am approaching destinations unknown being unlocked and am already over 50% done with imp 100K times and around 30% done with perform 500K actions (according to the achievement window). Those didn't even register as an issue for me, really just the rifts. Hopefully the dev team is hearing us on this one.

 

Also Ekcin I just want to reiterate for the third time now. I never said few weeks/months to complete destinations unknown, I said a year. Which is a long time to commit to one game for the vast majority of gamers in the world. Granted I have been playing this game off and on since my junior year in highschool which was 2006. From being a bright eyed starter leaving newtown to build his 1x1 shack with his buddies to the devastation of wurmaggedon to G2 and starting fresh all over again with random people cause all of my RL friends quit. I have had times where I would burn out but always returned. Clearly Wurm and I have a love hate relationship but I'm coming up on 14 years with her and will still be here til the end.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, user said:

I just do not enjoy rifts nothing against them just to long and always way out of my time zone. I get their appeal not asking them to be changed I have interest in ruining cart man's fun. Just unfortunate as I will never have that journal done not because it's hard just because times and lack of interest. An alternative to certain goals would be neat. Shouldn't remove it as people have been grinding towards it but possibly close 100 rifts OR {insert something here}

 

I think this one is a sound proposal, not only for the 100 rifts goal but for quite a number of others, like the 250 missions, the 20k creatures killed, the 75kg fish in road less traveled etc. It would be a good idea to have to reach, say 12 of 13 or 14 goals not all of them so have the chance to waive one or two of the most loathed.

 

5 hours ago, Araxiel said:

Also Ekcin I just want to reiterate for the third time now. I never said few weeks/months to complete destinations unknown, I said a year. Which is a long time to commit to one game for the vast majority of gamers in the world.

 

Having DestUnk done in a year is close to impossible, and rifts are not the reason. Also I do not see a real need in having a certain goal reached within a year, only that it is possible, which is certainly the case for the 100 rifts goal. In fact, the 120 titles will take ways over a year, at least for normal players. I am playing 2.25 years now, quite intensely, and still am at 106, the 99 skill also not reached yet. The latter may have been possible ways earlier, the further certainly not without insane effort even for me. So if it takes way longer than a year to get Destinations Unknown done altogether, why should that be an issue for the rifts goal?

Edited by Ekcin
typo

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2 hours ago, Ekcin said:

Having DestUnk done in a year is close to impossible, and rifts are not the reason. Also I do not see a real need in having a certain goal reached within a year, only that it is possible, which is certainly the case for the 100 rifts goal. In fact, the 120 titles will take ways over a year, at least for normal players. I am playing 2.25 years now, quite intensely, and still am at 106, the 99 skill also not reached yet. The latter may have been possible ways earlier, the further certainly not without insane effort even for me. So if it takes way longer than a year to get Destinations Unknown done altogether, why should that be an issue for the rifts goal?

Don't think anyone here suggest to dumb down the goals, make the journal completed in under a month and stuff like that, It's a suggesting that kind of goal is not resonable. Feel free to suggest a harder not time framed goal. I understand if changed could possible leads to empty rifts, but would be a feedback to consider

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46 minutes ago, Tor said:

Don't think anyone here suggest to dumb down the goals, make the journal completed in under a month and stuff like that, It's a suggesting that kind of goal is not resonable. Feel free to suggest a harder not time framed goal. I understand if changed could possible leads to empty rifts, but would be a feedback to consider

You got that one point right that indeed rifts, together with global spells for priest goals, are the only goals requiring community cooperation.  The implementation of both had the benefit to boost participation, and it would be a damaging regress to withdraw either of them. Whether or not a reduction of the number of rifts to participate would be sensible is another question. 

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if you need a journal to get people to go to a rift that sounds like rifts aren't enjoyable and people are avoiding them 😅

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5 hours ago, Ekcin said:

And where is the difference to pray to level 90,  cast 5 global spells, catch a 100kg fish, kill 50000 creatures, learn 750 cooking recipes, complete 500 mission, get a skill to 100 etc. ?

 

As I said, I am not opposing considerations to reduce or even drop the goal. Only I criticize the reasons given for. They are fairly unconvincing.

They're only unconvincing because you want to not understand why people would hate this goal, and so far just about every single comment about it has been right.

It's out of place, it's timegated moreso than anything else in the game, you cannot proactively work on it in your own time, it doesn't really introduce a new concept to the journal since runes appear in it much earlier and for people who want to finish the journal and want the cape while also working during the week, it's going to take multiple years to complete and that's if you're super sweating going to rifts

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Posted (edited)

I understand quite well why especially veteran players who have no problems with the 120 titles, not to mention the 99 skill, long have hundreds of thousand imps and actions etc., are used to solo nearly everything ingame, are annoyed to have to mix with the plebs and have to go to ordinary rifts. Practically all of the newer players I met during my few years on wurm liked them, though granted, not all liked travelling. And I see the time constraints and indeed, the devs may consider whether 100 rifts is over the top or not. I cannot say that I was much hindered to do that goal, but the problems for Epic, and to some extent Chaos, are not to deny. It were a shame though to remove that goal altogether.

 

Edit: The most reasonable proposal so far, btw., was that by "user", to have one or two "excess goals" at least in the last two chapters, allowing to waive one or two one seriously dislikes. That, or a reduction of the number of rifts to do.

Edited by Ekcin
typo/grammar

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Posted (edited)

Two pages fiercely defending the goal refusing to see that most people cant fit in the box and now you are suddenly fine with the option to forego the goal completely? Seems like arguing for the sake of arguing.

I enjoyed rifts far more before the addition of all the new stupid ai, more often than not i harvest nothing at the end and only attend because of the journal the few times it actually fits my zone.

Edited by SmeJack
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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, SmeJack said:

Two pages fiercely defending the goal refusing to see that most people cant fit in the box and now you are suddenly fine with the option to forego the goal completely? Seems like arguing for the sake of arguing.

I enjoyed rifts far more before the addition of all the new stupid ai, more often than not i harvest nothing at the end and only attend because of the journal the few times it actually fits my zone.

 

In fact "fiercely" defending the arguably only community based goal in the journal (for non priests). And I see that a few people as forum addict as me are arguing against. And granted, if the devs find that the goal should be removed, I would still regret it but so what. The real data, how many people achieved the goal in which time, rest with the team, not us. And that is  the base to decide, not just some rants pro and con by those who write a lot anyway. I in fact wanted to contribute with arguments against a removal (about a reduction I cannot tell due to lack of data to decide).

 

And still I think my arguments are not that bad. I would be curious how many have come even close to accomplishing 120 titles, or imp 100k times. 250 missions prolly yes for the long term players, I reckon I shall have to travel for that goal too, but so what. Not to forget the 75kg fish for those who have not idled their fishing skill to 70 and above with the old system.

 

If the 100 rifts can be done and have been done by most within the time frame for 120 titles, 100k imp, 500k actions etc. there is not much reason to change or remove the goal. If a significant number of players lags badly behind with the rift goal due to time constraints though they are nicely in time with actions, imps, titles, and fishing, it would indicate that the goal should be changed. Otherwise it would be a shame to nerf incentives to participate in that community action based goal.

 

Edit: And btw.. all disagreement notwithstanding I love the way this debate is staying civilized and argument based.

Edited by Ekcin

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I feel like the point just... doesn't reach certain people.  Let me try another way... I'd be perfectly fine with the 100 rift goal if you could do 100 rifts at your own time.

Someone that can play only a few hours a day can progress all of those other things, the titles the imps the actions you say, because they can actually do it.  What they physically cannot do is a rift when the game physically prevents them because it places their ability to participate when they are physically unable to do it.  This is the problem.  I've been going to rifts that are an option for me to go to since before this journal even came out and I'm still like 40 rifts to go or something while everything else is done.

 

Like just add instanced rifts that are invite only or something so you can do it with your friends or make it public, remove all rewards from rift points and resources or put a limit on them if there's a fear of abuse.  Just something so we can get this goal done without having to forego sleep or real life responsibilities or god forbid doing something else other than wurm.

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5 hours ago, Ekcin said:

I understand quite well why especially veteran players who have no problems with the 120 titles

Worked on in your own time, not timegated, it's at your leisure

5 hours ago, Ekcin said:

not to mention the 99 skill

Worked on in your own time, not timegated, it's at your leisure

5 hours ago, Ekcin said:

long have hundreds of thousand imps and actions etc

Worked on in your own time, not timegated, it's at your leisure, gained in the process of doing other things anyway

 

5 hours ago, Ekcin said:

are annoyed to have to mix with the plebs and have to go to ordinary rifts

1) Nobody here is playing a power card but you, nobody is saying they're annoyed to have to deal with other people. You're making this up to fit your own argument.

Stop. Nobody will take you seriously doing that.

2) what's a non-ordinary rift?

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, MrGARY said:

I feel like the point just... doesn't reach certain people.  Let me try another way... I'd be perfectly fine with the 100 rift goal if you could do 100 rifts at your own time.

Someone that can play only a few hours a day can progress all of those other things, the titles the imps the actions you say, because they can actually do it.  What they physically cannot do is a rift when the game physically prevents them because it places their ability to participate when they are physically unable to do it.  This is the problem.  I've been going to rifts that are an option for me to go to since before this journal even came out and I'm still like 40 rifts to go or something while everything else is done.

 

Like just add instanced rifts that are invite only or something so you can do it with your friends or make it public, remove all rewards from rift points and resources or put a limit on them if there's a fear of abuse.  Just something so we can get this goal done without having to forego sleep or real life responsibilities or god forbid doing something else other than wurm.

 

Hmm. I feel like I really need to defend Ekcin's point here a bit. (in case I have understood it correct, at least, but I think a lot of people are missing his point). 100 rifts is not the only time-gated goal you can't do by yourself. Personally I'm not concerned about the Rift goal, I can do it eventually. The times differ so over long period of time it can be done (frankly, if I really wanted, it would be already done, there's been enough opportunities, I just didn't take them all for various reasons.) The one's I can't do SOLO (at least in reasonable time) ALSO include 250 mission goal * and wear enchanted scale armor (armor you can buy and/or borrow, sure, but try doing it literally solo, just to back up the claims of journal should be able to be completed on your own...but if simply paying your way to finish journal is a thing, I guess we can suggest to put token-of-journal-finishing in the mark shop?). 250 missions at least on Xanadu does not depend on what you do solo. It depends on what is available when you are playing. Easy missions are done fast and close-to-impossible ones linger. Log in at wrong time and you are out of luck. Sounds pretty much like complaints about Rifts to me. I've been playing this game a lot and always participated on missions that were possible to do when online. Still not done with whole 250 of it. Maybe I've been online at wrong times or such? Of course I could also travel to smaller servers to see what missions there are and finish it that way. But wouldn't that be the same thing as people complaining Rifts's not being there right when they want to play?

 

20000 creatures killed. Mm. well. If you live in northern Xan or one of smaller servers, just leave your char (equipped well enough) outside for hours and come back for creature count. Southern Xan, try the same and for few hours you've had one cow look at your mighty fighting monster and walk away. Things are just not equal everywhere. For good or bad.

 

* Of course literally, missions can be done solo, but practically it's not only up to what I do when I play: it depends on other people too, since you are never the only person that can do missions. Most of time these ritual and give x-item to avatar or kill x-traitor missions just hang there until they expire and easier missions appear - And these easy missions get done in minutes or couple hours, so if you were not online at the time, you are out of luck or you can go hunt for that one traitor monster on Xanadu. Good luck finding it. And for anyone who claims Rift is too random time and too random location should agree these missions are also impossible to do. At least I hope so, for some consistency. 

 

To sum it up: If there will be changes to 100 rift (btw I'd be fine with lowering the number as well) there should be similar changes for other things too. At least if anything should be doable solo, in somewhat similar time.

 

 

Edited by Nestangol
typo

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1 hour ago, Nestangol said:

To sum it up: If there will be changes to 100 rift (btw I'd be fine with lowering the number as well) there should be similar changes for other things too. At least if anything should be doable solo, in somewhat similar time.

I'd like to see 250 missions lowered a little bit given how terrible missions can still be, but otherwise I'm kinda eh. I'd like to see one fishing goal yeeted since it's silly to have it three times, but otherwise whatever.

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We can say that in theory rifts will rotate through and be available in every time zone but that actually isn't true in practical terms. Rifts in "off" time zones that aren't accessible to those in europe and the americas tend to not close in a reasonable amount of time and wind up cycling back to the beginnging of one of those two time zones anyway.

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I never thought i'd see one of our late-night discord rants posted on the forums...
  But yes, the other issue is that the starting times for most of the rifts.  Being that they either start in the middle of the afternoon on a weekday or the middle of the night. But in reality, I'm unsure if there is anyway to orchestrate a particular time that will work for a majority of people.  It's just getting a little old having to set alarm clocks for 2am.

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