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Lisimba

Repair quality loss variability

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I figured I'd gather some data on this since there was a lot of discussion going on about repairs and I got curious. The other thread got locked though so I'm putting it here.

 

I'm mining sandstone with a relatively low quality pickaxe for the dual purpose of skilling and getting a vein out of the way. I'm mining exactly 100 shards each time, then repair. My repair skill is currently about 51.22. So far the repair timer is exactly 2.0 seconds so I assume the amount of quality lost represents one tick.

 

Key: start quality, damage taken, quality left after repairing that damage, amount of quality lost, amount of quality lost per point of damage repaired.

19.76 ql, 2.12 damage, 19.66 ql, lost 0.10 ql, or ~0.04717 ql per damage.
19.66 ql, 2.16 damage, 19.60 ql, lost 0.06 ql, or ~0.02778 ql per damage.
19.60 ql, 2.20 damage, 19.44 ql, lost 0.16 ql, or ~0.07273 ql per damage.
19.44 ql, 2.20 damage, 19.42 ql, lost 0.02 ql, or ~0.00909 ql per damage.
19.42 ql, 2.19 damage, 19.30 ql, lost 0.12 ql, or ~0.05479 ql per damage.

19.30 ql, 2.20 damage, 19.17 ql, lost 0.13 ql, or ~0.05909 ql per damage.

 

Findings:

  • The amount of damage taken varies a little but is quite consistent. I would expect it to go up over time as the quality of the tool decreases, but that trend isn't really visible here yet.
  • The amount of quality lost to a single repair tick varies quite considerably. So far the difference is a factor of 8 for (coincidentally) the same amount of damage repaired.

 

It seems that, depending on if you get lucky or unlucky ticks, you may get several times more damage from one try to the other just by pure chance.

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And now we just need tests to be done with high ql tools as what little i have done so far(ill do some more later and write it all up once i get my pickaxe up to 95 again and il also test it on wu after that and compare) the quality loss on high ql IRON tools does seem to be higher based on what i have done so far so once i have done some more il either edit this post or make a new one

On a side note if you are skilling mining would you be so kind as to put up your mining/pickaxe skill as ql 20 pickaxe on sadstone(yes on purpose) isnt really the best for skilling purposes

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Well, i suppose they will still tell you that "the code is right" and mock your testing as "anecdotal knowledge you've gained over one day".

I mean why try something out, if the numbers are all here, its so easy.

 

Btw, i found sadstone with a skiller pickaxe as not so bad at 80+ish miningskill.

Its at least a nice alternative if you don't have/don't want to waste silver/gold veins.

 

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1 hour ago, Beewolf said:

Btw, i found sadstone with a skiller pickaxe as not so bad at 80+ish miningskill.

Its at least a nice alternative if you don't have/don't want to waste silver/gold veins.

Define skiller? at 80 skill mining sadstone is best done with a pickaxe at max ql of 48 highest change of a skill tick between 44 and 47 and viable to as low as 32ql any lower and you miss out on skill tick chances at say 12 ql you have a 43ish% chance to get a skill tick compared to 52-53% at 45

Anyway from the short test i did on both wo and wu(running a 1x server for speed) with mimicked skills between the 2 and as much the same as possible low ql iron tools act mostly the same its just insanely high ql that seem to be affected more then normal

All test where done with a pickaxes and shovels
repair skill 54.60
misc items 88.80
pickaxe 98.89
mining 98.64
Both vynora and in vyn domain

Mined till 1 damage on 5 pickaxes in wo and set damage to 1 in wu
All tools where set to 85 ql no enchants on any

End result
45 21

WO
i5R6Z0f.png

WU
4HpGaAh.png


It does appear to be lower based on these 5 i did with exact skills and stuff but i will see how my next vein i eat goes(saterday) if the quality drops noticeably on my supreme pick when compared to last weekend then i will share that too but going off this "short" test (300-320 shards mined per pickaxe on wo) it does seem to be lower then what it was atleast in wu

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, wipeout said:

Define skiller? at 80 skill mining sadstone is best done with a pickaxe at max ql of 48 highest change of a skill tick between 44 and 47 and viable to as low as 32ql any lower and you miss out on skill tick chances at say 12 ql you have a 43ish% chance to get a skill tick compared to 52-53% at 45
 

 

That is good to know indeed.

I just skilled mining for some hours recently, after i didn't touched it for ages and used my ancient ql 13-15 skiller pickaxe.

I was still glad to be able to punch sadstone and don't have to touch my last (utmost) goldvein or my rare silver ones.

Edited by Beewolf

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Posted (edited)

They have said that repair timers were capped earlier on 2 sec anyway.

 

But I remember, that when I was repairing batch of items (like 8 at once), with low damage, then progress bars were just very fast, like blitz, one after another.

Now I repair batch of items and see those 2 sec timers, difference is very noticeable.

 

Btw my repairing skill is over 92.

Edited by Wilczan

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6 minutes ago, Wilczan said:

They have said that repair timers were capped earlier on 2 sec anyway.

 

But I remember, that when I was repairing batch of items (like 8 at once), with low damage, then progress bars were just very fast, like blitz, one after another.

Now I repair batch of items and see those 2 sec timers, difference is very noticeable.

 

Btw my repairing skill is over 92.

And because that timer is now a set 2 seconds min vs under 2 seconds at high repair and tool skill the chance of 1 or 2 ticks to ql loss happening is higher on iron which leads to more quality loss at a faster rate then before to the point where repairing low damage can actually be harmful to how long a tool remains high ql vs it being a near instant at say 0.35 damage at high high skill on repair being almost instant thus the chance of a ql loss tick happening was way lower

This is why a few are upset and annoyed(and quite a few more ingame that dont really post much on the forums) as we all notice the longer timers(which is fine) but we all notice the higher tick rate in ql loss happening vs before so people's habits of repairing at 1 damage or at 2 and what not need to be changed now to fit that 2 sec timer vs 0.3 or 0.6 sec timers you had before as we will get those ql loss ticks regardless of 0.01 damage or 1 damage so you might repair 0.02 damage and suffer a 0.03 loss yet you might repair a 1 damage and loose 0.12 or you might be unlucky and loose 0.31 or something silly like my tests showed 
And people might say "oh its just 0.31 its nothing bad" but if 300 items=0.31 loss and that takes me 18 or so minutes to reach i can now loose 1 ql per hour give or take on 3.5 second timers now a supreme pick for me has a 2.7 second timer  and sure will take way longer to reach 1 damage but the repair will still be similar

In short
Iron tools take a lot of damage compared to steel
repair timer is set at 2 sec min
2 second timer means more chances of repair ticks happening then before
ql loss is increased due to higher tick rate of repair ticks due to longer timers
ql loss on tools in long sessions will be higher


That is the issue that people are going on about sure you can say well switch to steel or get it imped but a non rare ql 85 takes 1ql per hour loss at 98 mining if unlucky so say we are always unlucky i imp my pickaxe to 95 its gonna start out with 0.8 loss going up to 1ql loss at 85 so going off that if a vein has 7k in it i would have lost 7.5ql on a pickaxe a bit more then that if i start off at 95 (This is just done roughly and probably wrong but i will check this out more how much actually is lost on saturday)
But if that holds up blacksmiths are going to have a lot more business for people who mine a lot like me do and next to that will make it nearly impossible to sustain 20+ hour long mining sessions with 1 pickaxe

Not sure if repair timers increase will affect enchant drop(i know usage timers does but not sure about repair anymore but i think it did)


But hey in the end of the day if it turns out correct that longer repair timers=way bigger long term quality loss then previously it just means more reason for me to burn myself out of wurm by grinding my bs to 97 so that i can atleast imp my pickaxe to 95 in a reasonable time 😕 but thats wurm for ya 

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11 hours ago, wipeout said:

On a side note if you are skilling mining would you be so kind as to put up your mining/pickaxe skill as ql 20 pickaxe on sadstone(yes on purpose) isnt really the best for skilling purposes

 

Mining 99.794273, pickaxe 99.912781. Sandstone with a 15-30 ql pickaxe is pretty much optimal. Sandstone has a bit higher difficulty than gold which in turn is higher than silver, and there's a lot of sandstone while it has relatively limited use, so burning a bunch of veins on skilling isn't a problem.

 

1 hour ago, Wilczan said:

They have said that repair timers were capped earlier on 2 sec anyway.

 

But I remember, that when I was repairing batch of items (like 8 at once), with low damage, then progress bars were just very fast, like blitz, one after another.

Now I repair batch of items and see those 2 sec timers, difference is very noticeable.

 

Yeah, I remember that too. Can anyone check how it is in Wurm Unlimited?

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4 hours ago, wipeout said:

And because that timer is now a set 2 seconds min vs under 2 seconds at high repair and tool skill the chance of 1 or 2 ticks to ql loss happening is higher on iron which leads to more quality loss at a faster rate then before to the point where repairing low damage can actually be harmful to how long a tool remains high ql vs it being a near instant at say 0.35 damage at high high skill on repair being almost instant thus the chance of a ql loss tick happening was way lower

You do know your math..

Add to that.. the fact that many playing this game will repair sooner than later(annoyed by the yellow damage text on items.. or that effective QL causes the tool to lose more QL(as it's actual QL is lower).

4 hours ago, wipeout said:

But hey in the end of the day if it turns out correct that longer repair timers=way bigger long term quality loss then previously it just means more reason for me to burn myself out of wurm by grinding my bs to 97 so that i can atleast imp my pickaxe to 95 in a reasonable time 😕 but thats wurm for ya 

I WISH I had your optimism.. I see something else, pointless pitfalls time dumping your energy and time into fixing the wrong results of a dummy mechanic;

repairing often and maintaining stuff you care about is now is worse than not caring for it.. as much¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Posted (edited)

As i wrote and got deleted several times, they will insist that "the code is right" and give a damn.

 

It is logical that the 2 seconds repair timer is causing more damage tics and therefore more damage.

The longer the timer, the more tics, that is a basic mechanic of wurm.

That we had the 2 seconds time on every repair is simply not true, and if its deleted 5 more times.

 

I am not playing this since a couple of months and make up funny stories.

In fact i prefer to play silently in my home deeds and stay away from this forum, for good reasons as i see atm.

 

Edited by Beewolf

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Let's call moonmetal/steel bonuses "special metal" bonuses. What are these special metal bonuses? - Less damage taken on use and a slight modifier to the repair time of an item. (Fun fact - bronze also reduces repair time by a small amount!)

 

As for how repairing works:

1) Timer is created.

2) Every second, the quality is updated based on repair skill and the repair rune.

3) At the end of the action (the last second), damage is set to 0.

 

When you start the action, a timer is created. Before the change, the timer was clamped to 2 seconds while taking the repair skill into account, and then modified by the special metal bonus and then, most recently, by the Vynora bonus. This resulted in a timer that dropped below two seconds. Now the timer is clamped to 2 seconds after the modifiers are applied.

 

The repair action has two parts - one that checks for a second of action timer tick, which updates the quality of the item, and one that detects the end of the action (or the last second), which sets the damage to zero. Due to the timer being less than two seconds, the quality update was never happening for these items. The result being a free repair without quality loss.

 

The effective result of clamping the repair to 2 seconds is that the quality loss will always tick once, with the final second being used for the damage update. The damage update technically happens regardless of how much time is left on an action - so even sub-second timers would result in the damage being reset to 0.

 

So what about quality loss? Well this is based on two things as mentioned above: Repair skill and the repair rune. It has never used the special metal bonus to calculate quality loss. Therefore it was never a bonus to have special metals reduce the quality loss of a repair tick. The bonus there is, as mentioned above, in reduced damage on use.

 

That's the way the system works. I just spent my lunch break combing over it line-by-line to make sure my explanation was accurate to the code.

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42 minutes ago, Keenan said:

blah blah blah weird developer things blah

 

That's the way the system works. I just spent my lunch break combing over it line-by-line to make sure my explanation was accurate to the code.

You left out the important parts... What was for lunch?

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55 minutes ago, Keenan said:

Before the change, the timer was clamped to 2 seconds while taking the repair skill into account,

 

56 minutes ago, Keenan said:

This resulted in a timer that dropped below two seconds.

 

So it's a nerf, especially for people that grinded repairing.

Also lowering QOL.

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3 minutes ago, Wilczan said:

 

 

So it's a nerf, especially for people that grinded repairing.

Also lowering QOL.

 

Real talk:

You can call it what you think it is, but that doesn't make it what you think it is, Wilczan :)

 

It's a bug fix. It affects special metals only. That's what it is. Any other interpretation is in error. Quite simple really.

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1 hour ago, Keenan said:

 

 That's what it is. Any other interpretation is in error. Quite simple really.

 

 

Only in your bubble.

 

But yea, no need for discussion.

 

One can't argue with a wall.

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3 hours ago, Keenan said:

Let's call moonmetal/steel bonuses "special metal" bonuses. What are these special metal bonuses? - Less damage taken on use and a slight modifier to the repair time of an item. (Fun fact - bronze also reduces repair time by a small amount!)

 

As for how repairing works:

1) Timer is created.

2) Every second, the quality is updated based on repair skill and the repair rune.

3) At the end of the action (the last second), damage is set to 0.

 

When you start the action, a timer is created. Before the change, the timer was clamped to 2 seconds while taking the repair skill into account, and then modified by the special metal bonus and then, most recently, by the Vynora bonus. This resulted in a timer that dropped below two seconds. Now the timer is clamped to 2 seconds after the modifiers are applied.

 

The repair action has two parts - one that checks for a second of action timer tick, which updates the quality of the item, and one that detects the end of the action (or the last second), which sets the damage to zero. Due to the timer being less than two seconds, the quality update was never happening for these items. The result being a free repair without quality loss.

 

The effective result of clamping the repair to 2 seconds is that the quality loss will always tick once, with the final second being used for the damage update. The damage update technically happens regardless of how much time is left on an action - so even sub-second timers would result in the damage being reset to 0.

 

So what about quality loss? Well this is based on two things as mentioned above: Repair skill and the repair rune. It has never used the special metal bonus to calculate quality loss. Therefore it was never a bonus to have special metals reduce the quality loss of a repair tick. The bonus there is, as mentioned above, in reduced damage on use.

 

That's the way the system works. I just spent my lunch break combing over it line-by-line to make sure my explanation was accurate to the code.

That is all nice and all but our issue isnt with moon metal like has been stated before it is with iron tools and their increased quality loss now due to a forced 2 seconds min timer fixing the bug so that mm take an actual ql loss thats nice and all but that isnt the case with iron now and this whole "oh we are reading the code and the code says this" do we really have to remind you(sorry if this sounds like bashing but it really isnt) that we have a thing called wogic and this is wurm online where even digging at 2 slope at one point in time had a chance to randomly kill you? just because the code says how something happens doesnt mean that in reality the code is working as intended 😕

You say that the quality loss tick will always tick once but this is a lie go repair a lot of 0.01 damage items and you will see that quite a few of them will not suffer a ql loss or bigger ones i managed to do it at 0.47-0.55 and still not get a ql loss twice so far yet i have also gained 2 or even more ticks of ql loss at higher damage values(while still at the 2 sec min timer)
So sure the code "says" that that is how it is working but you apply wogic and suddenly that is not how it is working clearly from what is shown in the small test sample i did and what i and others see on our tools(quite a few of us are picky on our tool ql)

So im sorry that we come across as "bad" people who cause topics to get locked and posts to get hidden and sound like jerks but when you can notice a sudden change like that while playing you know something is off just like you can tell if 1 of your car's tires needs to be filled up with air again because its just ever so slightly off balance you know it due to you being used to it being a certain way so just like that when you see the ql after an update to "fix" repair suddenly drop about 30-40% faster then before you know something unintended is happening and some of us are trying to bring that to light but all we get back from the devs is a rude stance of "code says its working so this is how its supposed to be" like why that stance on this topic? when if we the players took that stance on other bugs we would receive ingame or forum bans or both 

Maybe the code is 100% fine for repair but thanks to wogic and it being affected somewhere else it still causes an unintended side effect who knows all we can do is try and bring it to light in hopes someone will be nice and kind enough to have a bigger look then just a lunch break worth of time(not saying it wasnt worth doing it) to see why a group of players started to complain about this suddenly

To me personally it just feels off quality on IRON tools is dropping faster then before the update and to me and others that have spoken about it themselves in alliance chat and elsewhere on their own(without bringing up the topic first) it seems like something is off so we want to bring attention to it besides that if it means more repair skill and more imping needed to be done so be it if you guys wont fix this for 3-4 years but it will still bug veteran players who are used to before(and more will probably complain in time)

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1 minute ago, wipeout said:

That is all nice and all but our issue isnt with moon metal like has been stated before it is with iron tools and their increased quality loss now due to a forced 2 seconds min timer fixing the bug so that mm take an actual ql loss thats nice and all but that isnt the case with iron now and this whole "oh we are reading the code and the code says this" do we really have to remind you(sorry if this sounds like bashing but it really isnt) that we have a thing called wogic and this is wurm online where even digging at 2 slope at one point in time had a chance to randomly kill you? just because the code says how something happens doesnt mean that in reality the code is working as intended 😕

You say that the quality loss tick will always tick once but this is a lie go repair a lot of 0.01 damage items and you will see that quite a few of them will not suffer a ql loss or bigger ones i managed to do it at 0.47-0.55 and still not get a ql loss twice so far yet i have also gained 2 or even more ticks of ql loss at higher damage values(while still at the 2 sec min timer)
So sure the code "says" that that is how it is working but you apply wogic and suddenly that is not how it is working clearly from what is shown in the small test sample i did and what i and others see on our tools(quite a few of us are picky on our tool ql)

So im sorry that we come across as "bad" people who cause topics to get locked and posts to get hidden and sound like jerks but when you can notice a sudden change like that while playing you know something is off just like you can tell if 1 of your car's tires needs to be filled up with air again because its just ever so slightly off balance you know it due to you being used to it being a certain way so just like that when you see the ql after an update to "fix" repair suddenly drop about 30-40% faster then before you know something unintended is happening and some of us are trying to bring that to light but all we get back from the devs is a rude stance of "code says its working so this is how its supposed to be" like why that stance on this topic? when if we the players took that stance on other bugs we would receive ingame or forum bans or both 

Maybe the code is 100% fine for repair but thanks to wogic and it being affected somewhere else it still causes an unintended side effect who knows all we can do is try and bring it to light in hopes someone will be nice and kind enough to have a bigger look then just a lunch break worth of time(not saying it wasnt worth doing it) to see why a group of players started to complain about this suddenly

To me personally it just feels off quality on IRON tools is dropping faster then before the update and to me and others that have spoken about it themselves in alliance chat and elsewhere on their own(without bringing up the topic first) it seems like something is off so we want to bring attention to it besides that if it means more repair skill and more imping needed to be done so be it if you guys wont fix this for 3-4 years but it will still bug veteran players who are used to before(and more will probably complain in time)

 

The bug did not affect iron items. Repairing iron items hasn't been changed at all. I cannot stress this enough.

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2 minutes ago, wipeout said:

That is all nice and all but our issue isnt with moon metal like has been stated before it is with iron tools and their increased quality loss now due to a forced 2 seconds min timer fixing the bug so that mm take an actual ql loss thats nice and all but that isnt the case with iron now and this whole "oh we are reading the code and the code says this" do we really have to remind you(sorry if this sounds like bashing but it really isnt) that we have a thing called wogic and this is wurm online where even digging at 2 slope at one point in time had a chance to randomly kill you? just because the code says how something happens doesnt mean that in reality the code is working as intended 😕

You say that the quality loss tick will always tick once but this is a lie go repair a lot of 0.01 damage items and you will see that quite a few of them will not suffer a ql loss or bigger ones i managed to do it at 0.47-0.55 and still not get a ql loss twice so far yet i have also gained 2 or even more ticks of ql loss at higher damage values(while still at the 2 sec min timer)
So sure the code "says" that that is how it is working but you apply wogic and suddenly that is not how it is working clearly from what is shown in the small test sample i did and what i and others see on our tools(quite a few of us are picky on our tool ql)

So im sorry that we come across as "bad" people who cause topics to get locked and posts to get hidden and sound like jerks but when you can notice a sudden change like that while playing you know something is off just like you can tell if 1 of your car's tires needs to be filled up with air again because its just ever so slightly off balance you know it due to you being used to it being a certain way so just like that when you see the ql after an update to "fix" repair suddenly drop about 30-40% faster then before you know something unintended is happening and some of us are trying to bring that to light but all we get back from the devs is a rude stance of "code says its working so this is how its supposed to be" like why that stance on this topic? when if we the players took that stance on other bugs we would receive ingame or forum bans or both 

Maybe the code is 100% fine for repair but thanks to wogic and it being affected somewhere else it still causes an unintended side effect who knows all we can do is try and bring it to light in hopes someone will be nice and kind enough to have a bigger look then just a lunch break worth of time(not saying it wasnt worth doing it) to see why a group of players started to complain about this suddenly

To me personally it just feels off quality on IRON tools is dropping faster then before the update and to me and others that have spoken about it themselves in alliance chat and elsewhere on their own(without bringing up the topic first) it seems like something is off so we want to bring attention to it besides that if it means more repair skill and more imping needed to be done so be it if you guys wont fix this for 3-4 years but it will still bug veteran players who are used to before(and more will probably complain in time)

 

You're just wrong. Sorry. :) There's really nothing else to discuss on this. Move on? Sounds good.

 

Basically, what I'm saying is it's in the imagination of the people experiencing this. I won't sugar-coat anything. I think this is enough response from us. You call us a wall, but the pot is definitely calling the kettle black on this one. Unfortunately it hurts credibility when it comes to reviewing suggestions...

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Posted (edited)

I wondered if repair ticks took into account the amount of damage they actually repair as this would matter if you repair early and often. So I did an experiment.

 

I started with two freshly made pickaxes, both 6.73 quality. I chose low quality so any changes would be more visible. I mined 100 shards of sandstone with each of them, making sure to only start one action at once so as to avoid differences in timers due to stamina drain. I repaired pickaxe A after every single mining action, and I repaired pickaxe B once after mining all 100 shards. I also recorded quality and damage during the process.

 

Findings:

  • My repair timers were 2 seconds in all cases. This implies pickaxe A spent 200 seconds being repaired, receiving 100 ticks of damage. And pickaxe B spent 2 seconds being repaired, receiving 1 tick of damage.
  • Pickaxe A received 0.07 damage after each mining action. I suspect this is a rounded value, which implies the actual damage was somewhere between 0.065 and 0.075 per action, and so the total damage received by pickaxe A is between 6.5 and 7.5.
  • Pickaxe B had a total of 6.90 damage at the end. So A and B probably received pretty close to the same amount of total damage.
  • Pickaxe A lost 0.01 quality every 6 to 11 mining+repair actions. I suspect it lost a little quality every single action, and this is a rounded value too. The total quality lost is 0.11, bringing it to 6.62.
  • Pickaxe B lost 0.07 quality, ending up at 6.66.

Conclusions:

  • While pickaxe A lost more quality, the variability per repair tick is large enough that it's easily within the range of the quality lost by pickaxe B. If the random roll went a little different it could have lost the same amount as B, or less. It's reasonable to think the expected values of both random processes are probably pretty much the same, although more evidence would be useful.
  • Most interesting though, the amount of quality loss caused by repair ticks definitely takes into account the amount of damage repaired. If this was not the case and one tick of repairing just did one tick of damage quality loss, pickaxe A should have taken about two orders of magnitude more damage quality loss than pickaxe B.
  • This implies you can repair early and often, and won't lose extra quality because of it.
  • In addition, repairing smaller amounts more often means you roll a random number more often, which averages out extremes. You might get some bad luck rolls, some good luck rolls, some average luck rolls, and together they just average. On the other hand if you repair a large amount once in a while, that entire amount might be done by a bad roll. Or a good one.

 

 

Edited by Lisimba

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7 minutes ago, wipeout said:

You say that the quality loss tick will always tick once but this is a lie go repair a lot of 0.01 damage items and you will see that quite a few of them will not suffer a ql loss or bigger ones i managed to do it at 0.47-0.55 and still not get a ql loss twice so far yet i have also gained 2 or even more ticks of ql loss at higher damage values(while still at the 2 sec min timer)

 

They probably did lose quality, just so little the value still rounded to the same two decimals.

 

Mouse over gear in your character window, for some reason quality there is shown with four decimals. For example I have a chain gauntlet that's listed as 79.7197 quality there. But when I put that in my inventory it's listed as 79.72 quality. If a repair action took it from 79.7197 to 79.7193 it'd still show up as 79.72 in the inventory.

 

I suppose the game keeps track of quality with whatever the precision of a floating point number is, the rounding is just an user interface thing.

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Ostentatio said:

 

The bug did not affect iron items. Repairing iron items hasn't been changed at all. I cannot stress this enough.

 

21 minutes ago, Keenan said:

 

You're just wrong. Sorry. :) There's really nothing else to discuss on this. Move on? Sounds good.


All that i am trying to do is bring to light something multiple people have talked about since the update some who i know always took care of their tools(imp at set times repair at set times being really stingy about damage) and they also said they noticed something being off so i post it up i show what little tests i have done to try and bring some proof to the table and voice my opinion on it but in return the development team is quick to ignore posts and reply with content to try and annoy and aggravate players into posting replies that break the rules so that their stuff can be hidden or players muted

Anyway bugs and wogic make things happen weirdly in wurm we have had bugs that even devs and rolf said are part of the game get fixed over time because a new set of eyes believes they are a bug and it gets fixed i dont see anything wrong with that really the update itself was a good one but hey if the players say "we notice a change" and the devs say "there is nothing wrong" then so be it i guess we will see then

Either way @Keenanwe where asked to make a topic elsewhere to discuss it by samool so that is what we are doing here trying to talk about what we the players see as happening and trying to gather proof to show it either is a thing or not a thing at all so now with dev input done and you guys being 100% sure its not a thing can we just be left up to our own to figure this out as part of the fun of testing things is being proven wrong with data delivered to show why and stuff like this isnt bad right?

Anyway sorry if this annoys you guys thats not the intention at all we are just talking about something sharing test results hoping to come to a conclusion on a topic so please share test results if you guys want to join in as you guys have the tools to do so and your input in that way would be much appreciated as end of the day what we all gain out of this as players is a bigger understanding on how repair itself works in general so lets all leave the emotions and snarky comments at the door and just focus on data and tests as it will help us all better understand it

Again sorry if it annoys either of you 2 that was never my intention

 

 

 

 

  

13 minutes ago, Lisimba said:

 

They probably did lose quality, just so little the value still rounded to the same two decimals.

 

Mouse over gear in your character window, for some reason quality there is shown with four decimals. For example I have a chain gauntlet that's listed as 79.7197 quality there. But when I put that in my inventory it's listed as 79.72 quality. If a repair action took it from 79.7197 to 79.7193 it'd still show up as 79.72 in the inventory.

 

I suppose the game keeps track of quality with whatever the precision of a floating point number is, the rounding is just an user interface thing.

Guess i will have to do every test while equipping every pickaxe again il do that later today and see what comes out i never bothered to check that part of it so ya ql loss might just be that small at low damage it wont fully register in the inventory itself

Edited by wipeout

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21 minutes ago, wipeout said:

All that i am trying to do is bring to light something multiple people have talked about since the update some who i know always took care of their tools(imp at set times repair at set times being really stingy about damage) and they also said they noticed something being off so i post it up i show what little tests i have done to try and bring some proof to the table and voice my opinion on it

 

I haven't really noticed any difference, I'm just curious how it actually works. I was also a bit worried repair tick quality loss wouldn't scale with damage repaired but the experiment I did earlier settled that.

 

That said, if we're to prove any difference, we need actual hard data. Just a feeling that something is off is enough of a reason to look at things but it's not proof in any way. It is very common for people to think something is off simply because they started looking at it. Humans are *bad* with numbers, and with remembering things. Instead, what we'd need is something like a video recording of a session from before the update where someone did X actions and then repaired, and it showing the quality loss. Then replicate that and see if you get a different result now. And of course the result must be outside the range you'd get just from randomness.

 

I have a bunch more data for the first post in this thread, I'll add that some time later. But two of the new lines are:

 

18.41 ql, 2.32 damage, 18.22 ql, lost 0.19 ql
18.22 ql, 2.32 damage, 18.20 ql, lost 0.02 ql

 

Apparently it can vary by that much. If you got a 0.02 ql loss last you remembered before the update, and then a 0.19 ql loss after the update, you'd think something was going fishy, and reasonably so. But really these lines were from the same play session and happened right next to each other. I just got a really bad roll followed by a really good roll.

 

21 minutes ago, wipeout said:

but in return the development team is quick to ignore posts and reply with content to try and annoy and aggravate players into posting replies that break the rules so that their stuff can be hidden or players muted

 

I don't think that's fair. They really did look at it, and I don't think they're trying to aggravate anyone.

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"there was a problem with short repair timers not letting an item decrease quality when repairing, so to fix it we increased repair timers, but don't worry, that won't change anything except the few materials people were abusing the short timers on".

 

Wogic 101.

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2 minutes ago, Lisimba said:

That said, if we're to prove any difference, we need actual hard data. Just a feeling that something is off is enough of a reason to look at things but it's not proof in any way. It is very common for people to think something is off simply because they started looking at it. Humans are *bad* with numbers, and with remembering things. Instead, what we'd need is something like a video recording of a session from before the update where someone did X actions and then repaired, and it showing the quality loss. Then replicate that and see if you get a different result now. And of course the result must be outside the range you'd get just from randomness.

Which is why i did 300 actions give or take to get to 1 damage on a bunch of pickaxes in both wo and wu(with action speed set to 1) with and posted my pictures of my small test which i shall do again and equip every pickaxe to note all damage values that we can see and probably do it with more pickaxes when i have the time again either today or saterday
Just sad our only comparison point now is wu which isnt that reliable anymore of a comparison

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1 hour ago, wipeout said:

Again sorry if it annoys either of you 2 that was never my intention

 

What's annoying is that I've poured over this code, and you and Beewolf here are acting as if we're covering something up. Why would we?

 

The code was (pseudo to avoid pasting actual source) (note it's 20.0 because it's tenth of seconds):

time = Math.max(20.0, long equation here taking repair skill, damage, and difficulty into account)
time *= MetalBonus * DeityBonus

And it became:

time = Math.max(20.0, long equation blah blah * MetalBonus * DeityBonus)

That's it. And I checked the metal bonus code, it returns 1 for iron - which means it does absolutely nothing to the time. The deity bonus is the same, if you're not Vynora it returns 1. Otherwise it returns less than 1 which reduces the timer.

 

There's absolutely no other changes to the repair code this update. It cannot affect iron... at all. There's no possible way. So what you have to be seeing is just the RNG of repair. Period.

 

So please put this to rest. There's literally nothing else I can show you outside of actual source code to prove that this update is precisely what it says on the tin.

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