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Patch Notes 09 MAR 20

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1 minute ago, Retrograde said:

No, it was not intentionally for the similar reason scale and drake can be imped with leather. Yes we should have addressed its status as a bug then. Doing so now does not mean it was an intentional feature though, an item losing zero quality from any repairing should not be considered intentional unless it specifically states "does not lose any quality when repaired" 

Bottom line same thing, it's probably going to be more expensive to maintain the moonmetal stuff now, then a drake/scale armor if you had to imp it with the original resource. So yeah, i would like to see a change like that too, now very much plausable and in line with current bug fixes and updates etc

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9 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

should not be considered intentional unless it specifically states "does not lose any quality when repaired" 

can we get something that does that

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Retrograde said:

 this bug is the result of timers being able to go below 2 seconds and thus skip the quality reduction step in the code.

 

And now it is 2 seconds even with 0,01 damage and everything above that is worse than before, i never got so much QL loss on high QL tools before and

i repair most of the time with very few damage.

Maybe go and play your own game from time to time outside of streams.

And i said a DAY before this so-called fix "i already got a bad feeling in my stomach when i think about what the dabblers will cause when they're dabbling with the repair-behavior to change this back".

 

Its nice that you concentrate on wringing as much money out of the steam release as you can, but maybe consider to put some work into the maintance of the playability of existing systems too.

 

 

Edited by Beewolf
truth hurts
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So basically instead of fixing the issue with the code, you offer a potential "solution" that creates more problems than it solves. One of the very reasons I skilled repair is that my timers would be as low as possible. I didn't want to spend 50 seconds repairing a cart, I wanted to spend 3-4 seconds. And I also wanted (just like every sane wurmian) to have as little ql loss as possible. Now why should people bother grinding high repair skills again?

 

What is the point of having 90 repair? What's the point of having 95 repair if my timer will always be 2 seconds for any item?  And the quality loss. I'm just wondering if this is just an artificial way of stretching out a game that's already insanely long in its timers compared to any grindy game in existence. More dmg on tools, repair nerf, spend more time re-imping items, repetition, repetition.

 

And the same argument that "anything under 2 second bypasses the repair rule" is similar to the bug where people once used a Mooring Rope (i think it was mooring)  to lead 4 animals at once instead of 4 individual ropes.. Well that got removed a few years ago after years of use. Then what happened? We got a halter rope addition that did the same thing. One step forward. One step back. We didn't move an inch.

On Epic, anything under 2 seconds also is treated as "1 second". Chop a veggie in 1.4 seconds and queue up 7 actions? It's not a 9.8 timer. It's a 7 second timer. 1 second for each action.

 

Decide how you want to treat timers once and for all and fix the code. As wurmians we got used to a lot of annoying bugs over the years. Paying customers shouldn't be your beta testers for steam.

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9 hours ago, Retrograde said:

Repairing was never meant to happen without SOME quality reduction, this bug is the result of timers being able to go below 2 seconds and thus skip the quality reduction step in the code. moonmetals and other metals that have damage reduction bonuses will still continue to reduce the quality loss on repairing.

 

Does the quality reduction itself now also act as if there's 2 seconds worth of damage on the tool, or does it scale with the actual damage repaired?

 

Example:

  • (1) I repair a tool when it gets to certain amount of damage. This would have been a half second timer, but is now two. I do this four times over the course of the day, and so there's two seconds worth of "real" repairing but I spend 8 seconds doing it.
  • (2) I wait with repairing until the tool gets enough damage that my timer would have been two seconds anyway. I then repair the tool, and so there's two seconds worth of "real" repairing and I spend two seconds doing it.

Is the damage reduction from repairs the same in both cases, or is it four times as large in scenario 1?

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4 hours ago, Tor said:

Bottom line same thing, it's probably going to be more expensive to maintain the moonmetal stuff now

I....don't really mind that. I've been kinda holding off conversation about repairing since I've been asked about it a few times, and I'll preface what I'm about to say with a massive bold text statement of

I've not actually tested this update with my addy staff or any moonmetal item yet

 

I don't really see stuff like this as a bad thing. In fact, this could be a great thing.

There was a lot of complaints about RMT stuff, like how dragon scale armour never left the game and how it became such a massive common site and how sad it was. I prefer moonmetal items going back to being a more vanity or high end item than before. I don't think any item should ever be /repair and lose 0QL each time/ because that is unbalanced as all ######. We're now going to be imping these tools more, rarity means more now, QL means more, repair skill means more now. This isn't a nerf to repair skill, it's an overall buff and removes a bit of a silly thing from the game.

 

This is really my premature opinion piece though, my rare pickaxe has been dropping QL but I've been hammering the ###### out of it, but it was also 93QL and I'm 99 repair so....

I'm hoping it doesn't totally shaft things like Seryll or addy though. I'm trying not to think of it very narrowly because it totally has the ability to totally shaft me and many others over.

 

Do people like MrGary have a point? Absolutely yes, especially after a conversation on stream of bandaid fixes not being a thing, where this very much seems like one in plain sight. I think the ideal for everyone would be to be rewarded with dilligence of keeping things low damage and repairing often. I think that being rewarded for keeping damage low should definately be a significant thing, to encourage looking after your gear and interacting with your inventory, things that aren't really a chore.

 

I think a lot of people are being very kneejerk, though I feel this is also a very heavyhanded fix on the dev part. Especially given people are now trying to figure out at what point they should repair an item to maximize the QL lost to damage repaired. I think that should never really be a thing, same as how higher cast power lowers your maximum cast ability on recast and same as imbues and runes being high on the cast order.

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First of all, I appreciate your post. Indeed there may be and prolly are good reasons to change the repair behaviour

 

11 minutes ago, Madnath said:

I think a lot of people are being very kneejerk, though I feel this is also a very heavyhanded fix on the dev part.

 

Both is true, the latter in particular. I agree that there may be good reasons that repair lowers ql, even at highest repair skill (maybe not 100 but then as a special reward for that achievement).

 

But I simply lack understanding about how paying customers are treated. Working and having worked in IT development, administration, and 2nd and 3rd level CS, I can only shake my head in disbelief about. The other case with silently tightening the rules for valrei items then just dropping a note about is similar. Maybe the reason is that gamers are not respected as customers, I don't know.

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A few quick clarifications:

  1. The repair bug was introduced with the metal properties update approximately two years ago. Moonmetal was never meant to have free infinite repairs with zero QL loss, and only did fairly recently as the result of this bug.
  2. The fix to the repair bug does not affect any repair actions, timers, or QL loss, except for when material (or now, Vynora worship) would have dropped it below 2 seconds.
  3. The way the repair code works, you still have the incentive to repair early and often, and to have high repair skill.

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12 minutes ago, Ostentatio said:
  • The fix to the repair bug does not affect any repair actions, timers, or QL loss, except for when material (or now, Vynora worship) would have dropped it below 2 seconds.
  • The way the repair code works, you still have the incentive to repair early and often, and to have high repair skill.

 

So to confirm, the quality loss during repairing is based on the actual damage repaired, and not on the time spent repairing?

 

Or in other words, having the timer at a minimum of two seconds does *not* mean the quality loss also has a minimum, based on how much loss it would have been if there was enough damage that the timer was really two seconds?

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Posted (edited)

The QL loss on high QL (90+) on IRON tools with small amounts of damage is now higher than before the patch.

I give a crap why or how you did that, its making high ql tool obsolete.

What part of that is so difficult to understand?

When its affected by certain MATERIALS or MECHANICS then fix the mechanics and don't dabble around with the TIMER which has obviously

effects you didn't had on your plan.

Well or just ignore it, but then admit you don't care at least.

 

Edited by Beewolf
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Repairing should just be reworked to make it less of a mess. Separate timer and ql loss completely.
 

Pick a point where mend is equivalent exactly to repairing (say 70 or 80 repair skill). Then have repair skill higher than that reduce ql less than mend curving to a certain point at very high skill level. 

 

Then have the timer calculated based on what you’re repairing, amount of damage, skill and any bonus.

 

Then have a linear repair of damage and reduction of ql as the timer progresses. Make it where it doesn’t matter when you repair it (i.e. effective ql of item isn’t factored into the repair at all). It would still be good to repair often since your tool would spend less time in a lower effective ql state. Repairing shouldn’t be such a painful decision on when to do it. 

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, Ostentatio said:

A few quick clarifications:

  1. The repair bug was introduced with the metal properties update approximately two years ago. Moonmetal was never meant to have free infinite repairs with zero QL loss, and only did fairly recently as the result of this bug.
  2. The fix to the repair bug does not affect any repair actions, timers, or QL loss, except for when material (or now, Vynora worship) would have dropped it below 2 seconds.
  3. The way the repair code works, you still have the incentive to repair early and often, and to have high repair skill

Scenario: yesterday killed troll, started with 0 dmg addy small axe, around 94.xx ql i think, don't remember how much dmg i had after fight but repaired right after fight and lost beetween 0.01 and 0.02 ql. Sorry don't remember exact numbers, will be quite happen to try to resimulate with iron, steel, and addy weapon (as you guys should do before releasing this patch). Point is if there is no significant difference in ql loss between those materials what's the point of moonmetals, and if ql loss is much higher on others just after ONE fight that isn't very pleasant experience and maintaining weapons for hunting is now huge chore to bother with... I don't mind to reimp moonmetal and steel weapons now and then but i excpect them to last quite a while before that, expecially with very high ql. Loosing 0.02 ql after each fight seems to much for me for 94ql addy weapon.

Edited by kochinac
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31 minutes ago, Beewolf said:

The QL loss on high QL (90+) on IRON tools with small amounts of damage is now higher than before the patch.

 

Just so that this gets said again and again and again until the devs fix this unintended side effect of "fixing" something that no one really cared about and most people never even knew off

Ql loss now compared to before patch is way higher on my shovel that i was using in the same amount of time it took to fill a wagon full of crates(always repair at 1 damage is what i do) every time i start i get my shovel imped to 90(in the process of being able to do this myself) but before a wagon full would result in nearly no loss to like 89 something(low 89) now 87 after 1 wagon or 3.6k dirt

You might say "oh its just 3 ql who cares" but the effort that is put in to imp a item to 90 or 95 does not equal how quick 3 ql is lost its like using newbie tools as they drop that fast so please for the sake of everyone's tool sets and sanity undo the "fix" go back test it more make sure its working as intended across all metal types and all sets of quality as right now it is broken and will destroy anyone's gear no matter what ql or metal type

Which i guess if you want to overload the few smiths we have with repair requests good job if you want people to quit playing until this is addressed good job both will happen so please just undo it take it back to the drawing board and sit down and fix it properly and please stop with these half fixes test things properly you have a test server put up test server patch notes 2 weeks before so that we know what to test for and there is a 2 week period where issues like this can be addressed properly so that it wont affect your paying customers their experience even more then some of the stuff you do already does

This in no means is an attempt at flame or trolling i am just frustrated i wanted to go mining with my supreme pick as it had just been imped up all nice to 98 so that i could destroy a vein or 3-4 before needing it imped again but at the rate its dropping quality i wont get through half a vein before its under 90 and it aint worth the money to get it imped at that rate so please just do undo it fix whats wrong and reapply after some more testing pretty please

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Any clarification how this affects repairing after failed improvements item which are beyond 99.99xx QL? At this point it doesnt even show proper QL mostly, not to mention how much ql is lost for repairs...

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1 hour ago, Lisimba said:

 

So to confirm, the quality loss during repairing is based on the actual damage repaired, and not on the time spent repairing?

 

Or in other words, having the timer at a minimum of two seconds does *not* mean the quality loss also has a minimum, based on how much loss it would have been if there was enough damage that the timer was really two seconds?

 

It's influenced by a number of factors, like damage to repair and repair skill. Timer doesn't look like it should cause much of a difference in the end, unless it's under 2 seconds, which is where the bug hits.

 

This bug was only possible when the material had a repair time modifier, like moonmetal, or with Vynora's new repair time bonus. In other words, this bug, and the recent bugfix, don't affect normal repair times at all, or QL lost.

 

There were no other changes to repair mechanics. Repairing an iron item, or any other non-bugged item, will result in the same QL loss it did before these changes.

 

39 minutes ago, Martynas5 said:

Any clarification how this affects repairing after failed improvements item which are beyond 99.99xx QL? At this point it doesnt even show proper QL mostly, not to mention how much ql is lost for repairs...

 

For example, there would be no change to this situation at all. If these items were iron (or another material with no repair time bonus), repairing them will work exactly the same as it did prior to the bugfix and the Vynora bonus being added.

 

This wasn't some sort of general repair nerf. Repairing an iron tool will work 100% the same as it did before Vynora got the bonus. If you're seeing a difference there, it's due to some normal random factors in the repair checks.

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29 minutes ago, Ostentatio said:

 

It's influenced by a number of factors, like damage to repair and repair skill. Timer doesn't look like it should cause much of a difference in the end, unless it's under 2 seconds, which is where the bug hits.

 

This bug was only possible when the material had a repair time modifier, like moonmetal, or with Vynora's new repair time bonus. In other words, this bug, and the recent bugfix, don't affect normal repair times at all, or QL lost.

 

There were no other changes to repair mechanics. Repairing an iron item, or any other non-bugged item, will result in the same QL loss it did before these changes.

  

 

For example, there would be no change to this situation at all. If these items were iron (or another material with no repair time bonus), repairing them will work exactly the same as it did prior to the bugfix and the Vynora bonus being added.

 

This wasn't some sort of general repair nerf. Repairing an iron tool will work 100% the same as it did before Vynora got the bonus. If you're seeing a difference there, it's due to some normal random factors in the repair checks.

You're wrong.

 

There is something clearly dorked in your code if this was the intent.

 

I repaired my 92ql rare shovel after digging about 600 dirt. I lost almost a full point of quality on it.

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23 minutes ago, ChampagneDragon said:

I repaired my 92ql rare shovel after digging about 600 dirt. I lost almost a full point of quality on it.

 

How much would it have lost before?

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Lisimba said:

 

I'm not seeing anything noticeably different with my (non moon metal) stuff. I didn't log how much quality things lost on repair though so it's hard to check for sure.

 

You see no difference although you didn't payed attention on ql loss?

wow... what a surprise.

Well i testet it on several different ql 90+ tools several times each with different amounts of damage, thats why i am writing here.

 

I don't guess like you, i don't say "it should be like that because we wrote that line of the code in that way",

i tested it ingame for quite some time.

 

What is the least i can expect from anybody who is trying to argue about a matter.

 

Just won't happen in this kindergarden.

Now i will forrrrrce myself to stop be here, before i puke on my keyboard.

 

 

 

Edited by Beewolf
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For most tools, you're going to have a 2s timer to repair. This means the repair skill check is done once, and like other skillchecks, can have highly variable results. It's entirely possible to see poor results on a repair, and better results other times. In other words, bad luck can easily cause you to lose much significantly more QL on one repair than another, even at the same damage and repair skill.

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3 minutes ago, Ostentatio said:

For most tools, you're going to have a 2s timer to repair. This means the repair skill check is done once, and like other skillchecks, can have highly variable results. It's entirely possible to see poor results on a repair, and better results other times. In other words, bad luck can easily cause you to lose much significantly more QL on one repair than another, even at the same damage and repair skill.

And you guys find this desirebale behavour. Wonderful.

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WTS Mend casts so RNG doesn’t wreck your moonmetal gear. 

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@Retrograde Is my assumption above correct?

Does the shortened action time for repairing mess up the skillgains that vynora followers/priests are getting for repairing items?

 

If so.. is there going to be a buff to address the issue?

The 7.5% time-shortening.. *CUTS skill bonus from all other skil-gain buffs that the game offers*

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50 minutes ago, Ostentatio said:

For most tools, you're going to have a 2s timer to repair. This means the repair skill check is done once, and like other skillchecks, can have highly variable results. It's entirely possible to see poor results on a repair, and better results other times. In other words, bad luck can easily cause you to lose much significantly more QL on one repair than another, even at the same damage and repair skill.

So it's all random on end?

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16 minutes ago, Finnn said:

@Retrograde Is my assumption above correct?

Does the shortened action time for repairing mess up the skillgains that vynora followers/priests are getting for repairing items?

 

If so.. is there going to be a buff to address the issue?

The 7.5% time-shortening.. *CUTS skill bonus from all other skil-gain buffs that the game offers*

you get 10% more skill as vyn

 

10 is a bigger number than 7 count it on your fingers if you wish, just dont cut any in half to count the .5

 

your assumption is not correct, also lol at you @ the non developer for info about how the game works

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