Some love for weaponless fighting- Monk gloves and shoes, and other monk styled attire for weaponless fighting path

[Thalius 246]

I have a new priest alt that I am wanting to train up for weaponless fighting, just for the fun of it- turn him into a shaman-monk fighter of sorts. 

 

There have been suggestions for adding brass knuckles and other fist type weapons into the game, but it sounds odd to me to equip a monk fighter with such things.  It would be very nice to be able to enchant his fists though, so I had the thought of suggesting monk gloves which could add enchants to weaponless fighting when using hands in combat, but without adding any direct damage bonus to weaponless fighting via adding fist weapons.  I want enchanted hands for use in combat- but without any actual weapons being used. 

 

I want a character that depends entirely on bare hand and feet fighting, body strength and size, enchants, meditation skills and priest abilities.  Adding gloves and shoes as a means of providing a way to enchant a monk's weapons (hands and feet) without adding any actual weapons would be a nice addition to weaponless fighting.
 

And while we are at it- a monk style outfit is in order.  It would be better than walking around pant-less, and allow for enchanted clothing. Weaponless fighting is challenging enough as it without removing clothing and thus enchant options for those wanting to pursue that path. 

I'd suggest adding the following:

• cotton cloth monk shirt and pants,
• leather monk gloves as weapons that provide some fist protection in combat but that can only be enchanted with weapon enchants and that cannot be equipped while wearing any hand or forearm related armor items other than monk bracings.
• Leather monk shoes/slippers that add an agility bonus to weaponless fighting, especially when using feet in combat.
• leather monk forearm bracings to protect the forearms in weaponless combat.

 

Monk shirt/pants/shoes/bracings should all be enchant-able as armor items.  Monk gloves could receive weapon enchants but still provide some protection to hands in combat.

 

I would suggest that wearing any armor higher than leather on any other part of the body gives increased damage protection but with some negative stats to weaponless fighting ability as it would hamper agility.  Leather on any part of the body keeps stats fairly neutral, and monk attire (made only of cotton cloth and leather monk forearm bracings) adds some bonuses to weaponless style fighting.  Anything other than monk attire on the legs removes option to use feet in battle.

 

Give us the option to train up true monk characters in Wurm.  We have some decent meditation and deity paths to follow to allow for the creation of such characters, now we need to be able to dress and train them up to fight like monks as well, and clothing/armor options in Wurm are limiting the ability to take a character in that direction.

Humbly but hopefully submitted for consideration...
~TH~
Chief Hermit of Hermitage

Edited just now by Thalius

[Thalius 246]

Other option would be to not add monk gloves at all and keep fists bare, but add leather bracings as weapons that could add combat related enchants to fists.

 

A monk's fists and arms would be the most vulnerable to damage in that case, and I'd imagine a character following such a path would have to be pretty good at healing.

[CreZ 284]

https://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/Bearpaws

Not exactly what you're asking for but at the same time it is

[Thalius 246]

18 minutes ago, CreZ said:

https://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/Bearpaws

Not exactly what you're asking for but at the same time it is

Right. One of the things one would use in weaponless combat arsenal.  I was under the impression it was temporary though. Is this permanent when cast on someone?

Still, gloves or bracings that could be enchanted would allow a player to be able to inflict elemental damage and such in weaponless combat- something that can't be done right now to my knowledge.  My suggestion does not see gloves or bracings as adding combat damage like bearpaws would. They would allow for enchanting fists with various elemental or other bonuses as can be done with other weapons, as may be deemed appropriate.

[Cipacadrinho 390]

Asking for weaponless fighting to be viable is not realistic because that means it would remove the need for the hardest to grind skill in game: weaponsmithing 

 

Sure they could buff it a bit so you could kill a bear with your bare hands in 3-4 hits if that  would make people happier but it can't ever be actually on par with weapon skills on damage.

 

I guess they could tweak the damage weapons take based on the mobs you are hitting: flesh and hide mobs should cause less dmg on a weapon compared to a turtle etc so that people will have more use out of their weapon especially if they have to buy imps for it.

 

And there are less damage runes and can have decent repair skill to lose less and less quality on the weapon on repair but why grind those when is easier to ask for fists with weapon enchants?:)

 

Another compromise would be to  have weaponless fighting damage scale based on that toon's weaponsmithing skill so this way people will still have to grind weaponsmithing  if they want to be efficient with it. How about this ideea?

 

So do all the things the OP suggested but set the base damage to 1 and then add +1 for every 10 weaponsmithing skill that toon has so it could end up with 11 base which is pretty good considering that huge axe does 12?

 

Is the OP gonna agreee to this suggestion? No? why? cuz weaponsmithing grind cuh

 

 

[Thalius 246]

16 minutes ago, Cipacadrinho said:

Asking for weaponless fighting to be viable is not realistic because that means it would remove the need for the hardest to grind skill in game: weaponsmithing 

 

Sure they could buff it a bit so you could kill a bear with your bare hands in 3-4 hits if that  would make people happier but it can't ever be actually on par with weapon skills on damage.

 

I guess they could tweak the damage weapons take based on the mobs you are hitting: flesh and hide mobs should cause less dmg on a weapon compared to a turtle etc so that people will have more use out of their weapon especially if they have to buy imps for it.

 

And there are less damage runes and can have decent repair skill to lose less and less quality on the weapon on repair but why grind those when is easier to ask for fists with weapon enchants?:)

 

Another compromise would be to  have weaponless fighting damage scale based on that toon's weaponsmithing skill so this way people will still have to grind weaponsmithing  if they want to be efficient with it. How about this ideea?

 

So do all the things the OP suggested but set the base damage to 1 and then add +1 for every 10 weaponsmithing skill that toon has so it could end up with 11 base which is pretty good considering that huge axe does 12?

 

Is the OP gonna agreee to this suggestion? No? why? cuz weaponsmithing grind cuh

 

 

?????

My ability to smith a weapon has nothing to do with my ability to use a weapon in combat.  The two are not related in the least, so I don't understand why you feel any combat ability of any kind should be tied to weapon smithing skill level at all.

Also, I'm never expecting to kill a bear or anything large in four or five hits. I imagine a weaponless fight to be a bit of a longer term brawl, honestly.  Weaponless fighting is harder and more challenging, and should remain so.  There is room for some more depth to it though.

[Cipacadrinho 390]

7 minutes ago, Thalius said:

?????

My ability to smith a weapon has nothing to do with my ability to use a weapon in combat.  The two are not related in the least, so I don't understand why you feel any combat ability of any kind should be tied to weapon smithing skill level at all.

Also, I'm never expecting to kill a bear or anything large in four or five hits. I imagine a weaponless fight to be a bit of a longer term brawl, honestly.  Weaponless fighting is harder and more challenging, and should remain so.  There is room for some more depth to it though.

 

 

You missed my point: because your suggestion will not require the use of the hardest skill in the game to grind: weaponsmithing is a bad suggestion so i thought of a way to not circumvent the need for it.

 

Also suggesting that you dont want weaponless fighting to be competitive it means you want the devs to spend time coding a system that makes something useless into something mediocre and only a few niche players might try it but even they will have to switch to weapons when having to do rifts or uniques or any kind of tough mob.
 

 

[Thalius 246]

43 minutes ago, Cipacadrinho said:

 

 

You missed my point: because your suggestion will not require the use of the hardest skill in the game to grind: weaponsmithing is a bad suggestion so i thought of a way to not circumvent the need for it.

 

Also suggesting that you dont want weaponless fighting to be competitive it means you want the devs to spend time coding a system that makes something useless into something mediocre and only a few niche players might try it but even they will have to switch to weapons when having to do rifts or uniques or any kind of tough mob.
 

 

I honestly don't see any coherent logic behind your desire to trash the op. Just sounds like you don't want anyone to be able to do anything combat-wise in the game without having to come to a weaponsmith for a weapon. 

 

Options are good in the game, and weaponless fighting is a thing.  The idea behind my suggestion is to bring weaponless fighting to a place where it is a viable, albeit hardest combat path to follow in the game if you want to reach a level where you can take on rift mobs and such. 

 

Without any changes, I don't get the impression that weaponless fighting ever could allow a player to even begin to think of bare handedly taking on a rift event much less a unique.  You seem perfectly fine with that, and aggressively opposed to any suggestion that might give an option to go about things such as I've laid out.  I find it odd that you think that allowing such a thing would be a threat to weaponsmithing. 

 

The challenge to build a character that uses spell, enchant and mediation skills together with weaponless fighting in a way that allows a monk type character to go toe to toe with the toughest mobs in the game would be a rewarding challenge to take on.

[Cipacadrinho 390]

 

Weaponsmithing is the hardest because the devs decided it should be.

 

If you really want weaponless fighthing then find a way to be implemented without removing the need for core well estabilished skills.

 

I did that for  you in my reply and  you are welcome.

 

They can never set the precedent of adding something that would remove the need for a core well estabilished skill.

 

Because then people will suggest stuff that will remove the need for other skills and expect them to be implemented.

 

 

 

 

 

[Thalius 246]

44 minutes ago, Cipacadrinho said:

 

Weaponsmithing is the hardest because the devs decided it should be.

 

If you really want weaponless fighthing then find a way to be implemented without removing the need for core well estabilished skills.

 

I did that for  you in my reply and  you are welcome.

 

They can never set the precedent of adding something that would remove the need for a core well estabilished skill.

 

Because then people will suggest stuff that will remove the need for other skills and expect them to be implemented.

 

 

 

 

 

I feel like you are playing around with me on this.

Weaponless fighting already exists. It is a thing. None of the mechanics I've suggested are new. They all exist. 

 

All I am suggesting is clothing and gear (gloves or braces) that are tailored to weaponless fighting role which would allow any players (niche play style though it may be), to take advantage of role appropriate combat enchants that already exist in the game.

I have to walk around with no pants on in order to kick creatures in combat once weaponless fight skill is high enough? Seriously?  It looks like at some point in the past the devs made a way for a niche group of players that wanted to fight weaponlessly to be able to do so, and gave a nod toward the need for agility in weaponless fighting by requiring the removal of pants, but never really rounded out what weaponless fighting should look like in the world of Wurm.  I was already wanting to figure out how to take my priest in that direction weeks ago once I decided I was going to own and train up a priest.  Oblivion's kinuckleduster suggestion got me thinking more about all this and so I've put some thoughts out there on the subject.

Throwing out the idea of adding a few small clothing items that offer no real advantage other than allowing enchants to be used in weaponless fighting simply on the basis of your feeling that all players, even the small niche group that would enjoy weaponless fighting, should have to go through a weaponsmith or grind the skill themselves in order to do WEAPONLESS combat in the game seems poor logic on this subject to me.

Besides, honestly, the vast majority of players would never go the difficult weaponless fighting route anyway, and certainly not just so they could avoid dealing with a weaponsmith.

[Cipacadrinho 390]

4 hours ago, Thalius said:

Throwing out the idea of adding a few small clothing items that offer no real advantage other than allowing enchants to be used in weaponless fighting simply on the basis of your feeling that all players, even the small niche group that would enjoy weaponless fighting, should have to go through a weaponsmith or grind the skill themselves in order to do WEAPONLESS combat in the game seems poor logic on this subject to me.

 

9 hours ago, Thalius said:

I want a character that depends entirely on bare hand and feet fighting, body strength and size, enchants, meditation skills and priest abilities.  Adding gloves and shoes as a means of providing a way to enchant a monk's weapons (hands and feet) without adding any actual weapons would be a nice addition to weaponless fighting.

 

Okay so you can play as a priest, that has not being able to imp it's biggest downside, and have him use weaponless fighting so he has no need for a weaponsmith ever?

 

What hapends when my weaponlesss priest monk meets your normal toon on a pvp server? If i win i get to loot all your gear right? Weapon armor set etc but if you win you get to loot what? My rope and cloth monk thong? 

 

But other than that you are all good right? You just respawn and are ready to go your weapon cannot be lost or looted no matter if you die in pve or pvp.

 

So you want all that to happen but have the nerve to claim i have poor logic 

 

Ok let me give you one last piece of advice: stop making suggestions thinking just from your point of view, is ok if it starts that way but then think of ways to make your suggestion be good for everybody else or at the very least neutral to some

because then  you would have a chance to actually have your suggestion go thru.

 

Now let's see if you have the common sense to accept constructive criticism.

[Thalius 246]

I'll try to play along with this a bit.

If I chose to take my priest monk fighter guy to a pvp server and get killed, that is on me. I lose all of his gear which would include his enchanted clothing/monk armor stuff, jewelry and anything else I had on him along with skill loss.  I'm sorry none of that would probably be any real value to you unless you could find another monk fighter character that was interested in buying it from you- maybe even me if I found it valuable enough to buy back from you.

I'll say again that weaponless fighting is already a thing, and there are a few players that have made that a fighting style for them.  Heck, you can equip enchanted frying pans as weapons in weaponless fighting and go have fun with them.  No weaponsmith needed there.  My suggestion in the OP simply allows a weaponless fighter to go around wearing pants and fight using enchants while bare handed (wearing fighting gloves or bracers), and not having to equip frying pans or some other odd thing.

I must admit, beating a hellhound to death while duel wielding frying pans does sound fun....

I still want my legit shaman monk fighter though.  If I ever did decide to take him to try him out on a pvp server, I'll be sure to carry a couple enchanted frying pans as loot for you, should I bump into you and you kill me.

[Cipacadrinho 390]

1 hour ago, Thalius said:

I'll say again that weaponless fighting is already a thing, and there are a few players that have made that a fighting style for them.  Heck, you can equip enchanted frying pans as weapons in weaponless fighting and go have fun with them.  No weaponsmith needed there.  My suggestion in the OP simply allows a weaponless fighter to go around wearing pants and fight using enchants while bare handed (wearing fighting gloves or bracers), and not having to equip frying pans or some other odd thing.

 

So you are basicly saying what you are asking for is already in the game?

 

Just need the ability to enchant hands? 

 

Hey i would like to be able to be a priest but not have any penalties.

 

What do you think about that?

 

I mean is already in the game champions can do it right?

 

Sure there are some downsides like it is now for weaponless fighting where you cannot enchant your fists or whatever but since you claim is a good suggestion to put that in since people will use it then i say people will defo want to make their 1 character both a priest and a crafter so my suggestion is valid right?  I bet the devs never ever thought of that 😂

 

Anything in Wurm has an upside and a downside  this is at the core of the game desing but your suggestion improves weaponless fighting by alot while having no downsides so make an actual well thought suggestion or dont expect to be taken seriously, not by me, but by the people that actually develop the game.

 

 

[Flubb 773]

12 hours ago, Thalius said:

I honestly don't see any coherent logic behind your desire to trash the op.

Don't waste your time looking for it. He operates on projection, sophistry and cherry picking.

If this were to be applied consistently, archery is circumventing weaponsmithing and able to kill most mobs even more than a slightly more in depth and better WF would be, but nevermind that.

 

I don't know how good WF is, but if it's basically useless I see no reason it shouldn't be buffed a bit. I wouldn't even mind if a chuck norris level character would be able to take on a troll.

Wasn't there a guy who got it to 100? Let him wrestle a dragon, the man deserved it.

[Cipacadrinho 390]

2 hours ago, Flubb said:

Don't waste your time looking for it. He operates on projection, sophistry and cherry picking.

If this were to be applied consistently, archery is circumventing weaponsmithing and able to kill most mobs even more than a slightly more in depth and better WF would be, but nevermind that.

 

I don't know how good WF is, but if it's basically useless I see no reason it shouldn't be buffed a bit. I wouldn't even mind if a chuck norris level character would be able to take on a troll.

Wasn't there a guy who got it to 100? Let him wrestle a dragon, the man deserved it.

 

Archery requires Bowyery (bow) + Fletching(hq arrow), Cloth Tailoring(hq string) and Farming (hq wemp) so it's 4  skills and you have 3 types of bows to choose from all with upsides and downsides.

 

All 3 bow types have a separate skill that needs to be grinded.

 

You have to carry the arrows on you which means added weight you have to retrieve and repair said arrows and you have to re-imp them.

 

Arrows can break alltogether too and have to make new ones and you also have to carry spare strings with you because the bow string can break at any moment.

 

Then you have the night time where your shots have increased difficulty, give more skill because of it but still is a downside when needing to kill stuff.

 

Sure you can buy bows and arrows as items or  re-imps  same as  you can buy weapons and weapons imps.

 

Having a guy wearing a diaper slapping stuff with no downsides is nowhere near good game design and his ideea is doomed because he is incapable of seeing the big picture and only thinks of stuff that would suit him.

 

Already told him: have weponless damage scale based on the toon's weaponsmithing skill.  Is not ideal but is the best compromise. Someone that wanted a WF build would say: ok... all others have to work for their fighting prowes as long as i get what i want is cool.

 

This way he still needs it but only has to grind it as skill does not have to repair and re-imp his weapons so is better still. Does not have to lose any weapons on death in pve of pvp either how is that good? Others would have to re-imp and recast weapons the hero diaper guy just respawns and thats it fists are still on him with enchants ready to go.

 

Can roll a Fo priest with oakshell and giant strength and literally not need any weapons or armor just favor but, hey, need buff on WF overall because  gotta circumvent taht weaponsmithing cuh

 

You should both be able to know and understand these things about Wurm by now, i would love a viable WF build myself too but not one that has literally no downsides like he is suggesting and he does not do it because he is not aware but because still: ... uhm....  gotta circumvent taht weaponsmithing cuh

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2020 by Cipacadrinho

[Oblivionnreaver 5,174]

15 hours ago, Cipacadrinho said:

Asking for weaponless fighting to be viable is not realistic because that means it would remove the need for the hardest to grind skill in game: weaponsmithing 

crowbars are blacksmithing and they're equivalent to a small maul in combat with better parrying, you can already get around needing WS.

[Cipacadrinho 390]

4 minutes ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

crowbars are blacksmithing and they're equivalent to a small maul in combat with better parrying, you can already get around needing WS.

 

That is correct but is it intended?

[Thalius 246]

8 hours ago, Cipacadrinho said:

So you are basicly saying what you are asking for is already in the game?

 

No, not exactly.  The mechanics are in place for what I'm suggesting, they just don't fit together well for weaponless fighting. 

Monk pants and bracers or gloves as weapons so we can use enchants in bare handed, weaponless fighting without using misc odd items.  Monk shoes as well to complete the look, if it would not be too much trouble. If we had that, then all the existing mechanics could be used to round out a character such as I've suggested.

Also, I just found out that bearpaws is a temporary (25min) buff to weaponless fighting when a Fo priest casts it on you- it is not a permanent benefit nor even an enchantment that degrades over time with use.  It is pretty much only good for specific combat situations when you have a Fo priest nearby to cast it on you and recast it when it wears off.  This only reinforces my suggestion that some tweaking be done to provide a few small gear items to allow weaponless fighters access to combat enchants.

[elentari 2,660]

Or just have knuckledusters, ironshod or spiked gloves, steel tipped boots, etc that can be improved using Weaponsmithing since they would act as weapons.

Usage? Ex. have an option to put spikes on your leather gloves. You still have to use LW to improve the gloves. But you use WS to imp the spikes. That would require coding an option to add/remove weapon addition to an armor piece, but I do think it's quite doable. Or put steel tips on your plate boots.

 

That way we have the best of both worlds. You can fight and grind weaponless fighting and also requiring weaponsmithing as a skill for them.

Bearpaws is just another spell that acts more like a high end requirement for a skill that should not have one. You fight unarmed. That's it.

Should I have a Fo friend trail me around the woods every 20 mins to buff me? Think that'd be pleasant for him , or should I go to this deed and only hunt around his perimeter? What if he's offline? I could list a lot of situations that just add to more dreary activities for something that should be straightforward.

 

 

Edited March 3, 2020 by elentari

[Cipacadrinho 390]

4 minutes ago, elentari said:

Or just have knuckledusters, ironshod or spiked gloves, steel tipped boots, etc that can be improved using Weaponsmithing since they would act as weapons.

Usage? Ex. have an option to put spikes on your leather gloves. You still have to use LW to improve the gloves. But you use WS to imp the spikes. That would require coding an option to add/remove weapon addition to an armor piece, but I do think it's quite doable. Or put steel tips on your plate boots.

 

That way we have the best of both worlds. You can fight and grind weaponless fighting and also requiring weaponsmithing as a skill for them.

Bearpaws is just another spell that acts more like a high end requirement for a skill that should not have one. You fight unarmed. That's it.

Should I have a Fo friend trail me around the woods every 20 mins to buff me? Think that'd be pleasant for him , or should I go to this deed and only hunt around his perimeter? What if he's offline? I could list a lot of situations that just add to more dreary activities for something that should be straightforward.

 

As long as there is an upside and a downside i think a suggestion fits in the Wurm's core so your suggestion is good but the problem remains the same: there are people that want viable weaponless fighting without any downside.

 

Bearpaws and Oakshell are not ment to be followed by a Fo priest friend to cast them on you they are ment to make you roll a Fo priest and not have to use Weapons or Armor just favor.

 

That would be painfull at low chan because you would land short timers but for a medium+ Fo priest could be viable in pve making him a weaponless fighting beast with no need to repair or buy gear and the lack of LT is offset by the 3x single healing spells and 1x aoe heal spell that Fo has.

 

But all of those cost favor and could be dispelled in pvp so there are significant downsides to have it work with the Wurm philosophy.

 

The problem is that  you and me are the only people that came with some proposals of downsides the OP and others just want a crafter that can fight without needing weapons but still have no downsides.

 

[Flubb 773]

As long as an equivalent weapon based build in terms of skill and equipment quality is significantly better, I think that'd be downside enough.

Not that I'd go for a monk build or WF in general, by the way. Just don't see the harm in making an alternative playstyle somewhat more viable (but not as viable as standard combat equipment)

[Thalius 246]

As things are now, weaponless fighting has nothing but downsides. I like the challenge that provides, but would like a way for some enchants to be able to be used in weaponless fighting; Elemental and status related enchants in particular.  The OP simply asks for a few items to be added to the game that allow for this.  There is no real buff to weaponless fighting itself in the OP with regard to direct damage- a players ability to inflict physical damage would be entirely dependent on grinding body strength, as it should be, with spells and enchants as support features.  Cotton cloth monk pants would not add much protection, but would allow for some form of enchanted armor on the legs while still being able to kick opponents.  Footwear should play into weaponless fighting as I don't see kicking very efficiently with heavy armor on one's feet.  You can do it if you want, but there should be some penalty to agility/success in landing a hit with feet when wearing armor on the feet..

The OP would also leave the hands unarmored, and leather monk bracers would leave the forearms protected by leather armor at best.  There are still PLENTY of downsides to weaponless fighting in the OP I've put forward, I'm simply asking for access to basic enchants and gear appropriate to the fighting path.  I want my shaman monk character to be able to punch a bear in the head with a flaming fist, or poison a troll with venomous hands, or pummel a lava spider with icy fists.  The OP wants no additional direct damage added to weaponless fighting by adding fist related weapons.

If adding fist related weapons that increase damage and allow enchants to weaponless fighting gets us there then so be it, but it will no longer be weaponless fighting.  A new class of weaponry would need to be created with a related skill set.  That is certainly a much larger suggestion and more work for the devs than what I have put forth for consideration.

Edited March 3, 2020 by Thalius

[Cipacadrinho 390]

16 hours ago, Thalius said:

I like the challenge that provides, but would like a way for some enchants to be able to be used in weaponless fighting

 

Few problems:

 

- you cannot lose your weapons in pve or pvp ever and don't need to repair them.

- you cannot shatter the hands while casting so can just spam untill you get 105 on everything

- people could dispel/cast on hands for channeling grind depending on the spells they get, bye bye need for serryl jewelry.

 

Find a fix for that and im up for it

 

If weaponsmithing scaling damage is not something you want how about make it so that you take hands damage when punching making you need to heal more often?

Edited March 4, 2020 by Cipacadrinho

[CreZ 284]

Did you even read the OP?

[Flubb 773]

9 minutes ago, CreZ said:

Did you even read the OP?

Ironically his very own words from another thread explain his behaviour perfectly.

On 1/16/2020 at 1:05 PM, Cipacadrinho said:

Why read when you can ball park what you think the other person might mean to say based on your own intelectual capabilities then proceed to explain to the person how wrong they are

 

 

My only real contention with the OP is wether it's worth the implementation effort for such a niche combat style that would ultimtely be less viable than classical combat and therefore have less appeal. I don't mean to discredit OP in their wishes but it seems very specific, almost like it wants a third class of character.

Would just allowing weapon enchantments on gloves without specialized gear seem like a reasonable shortcut? And a general penalty to WF based on armor class like archery?

 

If Meditation were thrown into the mix somehow because it's pretty monk related as OP states, it opens up paths that are fun to think about and might make it reasonable to actually make it equivalent to weapon based builds as Meditation isn't exactly easy to grind, either.