Change or remove KoS in PvE

[Ekcin 2,407]

Some time ago already I suggested remediation of KoS abuse and exploits in PvE. Recently a new variant of KoS abuse emerged when a player used it as a suicide bot spamming death tab.

 

While this was more boring and stupid than harmful, other, more serious abuses remain. To restrict KoS somewhat, the option is given either to use KoS as a mayor, or use the highway system, but not both. Toxic players circumvent that restriction by using alts for multiple KoS on the same server. Also, KoS can be declared while the attacker just unprems and leaves as long as the agroing deed does not fall.

 

Further on, KoS allows that guards of a guard tower on deed or in perimeter aggro the KoS'd target as well, not only templars. That is highly problematic for a couple of reasons.

- First, tower guards are free of charge for the attacker except deed upkeep.

- Second, other than templars, tower guards neither respect fences, gates, or locks, not even houses.

- Third, tower guards attack horses under certain circumstances. While guards are fairly weak for an experienced player, they will kill horses fast.

- Fourth, tower guards also kill pets on deed. A mayor of a KoS aggroed deed cannot hold any pet.

 

All those abilities make senses in PvP, as guard towers there are part of deed and kingdom defense systems. Not only enemy guards but (to my knowledge) also hostile towers can be attacked there. In PvE, guard towers are a common good for defense of all players against hostile mobs. There is no point that they can be "privatized" and abused for molestation.

 

There is practically no way for the attacked to fight back. Sure, templars and guards can be killed easily, but that is waste of time and useless attrition of equipment.

 

Possible solutions are:

 

 - Allow the attacking deeds to be treated like in PvP, citizens be killed, enclosures of any kind be lockpicked and bashed, houses be destroyed, items stolen, and the token be drained once all templars are dead.

-  Remove KoS on Freedom altogether.

 

Less radical solutions were:

 

- Disallow more than 1 KoS per player and server. In KoS declaration, a box had to be checked e.g. "[x] I confirm that no other account played by me has declared KoS on this server".

- Disallow KoS when any alt is connected to the highway system (checkbox similar as above, punishment on offenses in both cases ban of violating accounts).

- Allow only actually premed mayors to uphold KoS. On premium end, all KoS must end too.

- End KoS after 28 days of mayor being logged out on the server.

- Exclude guard towers from KoS on PvE. Alternatively put a price on every tower guard killed or dying (even from natural causes). 5c per guard would be reasonable.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Ekcin
addendum/typo

[Polojordan 128]

-1

 

I've had a few people molesting my deed, just looking for anything not planted or secured so they could steal it. They would come to the deed almost weekly, but KoS put an end to that.

 

If you get put on KoS you have to manually be placed on the list and more then likely you pissed someone off.

 

Simple solution, if your needing to travel through the deed, would be to go around.

[Ekcin 2,407]

So you need non premed alts to declare KoS? You need Freedom guard towers because you are too avaricious to pay templars? You need multiple alts to plant deeds at the perimeter and in the daily ways of your "enemy"?

 

And about your pathetic suspicions, the one which made me experience KoS abuse was a toxic casual player who tried to steal from me and destroy projects around my deed, and was pissed when he was hindered, also vandalizing my trees and plantantions around my deed. And he is gone since about a year but left his abusive deeds for a long time.

 

Those are my personal experiences which I did not want to be mentioned here, but people like you with dirty suspicions made it necessary. And btw., I do not understand how people can steal on your deed. Set your permissions accordingly. KoS would not help you from any experienced player to drop by and kill your templars, and continue taking what you did not secure.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Ekcin

[Finnn 3,303]

I'd report the ****** for harassment if somebody puts 1 or 2/3/4 sh.... deeds around me with kos... and not even bother to watch a gm warning them to clean up   before a softban takes place...

 

idk the case... didn't read the OP, just the title... but that should be unacceptable behavior.

[Ekcin 2,407]

Well, I did not want to bother GM with my problems. They were surmountable or sustainable with patience, resilience, and awesome support of friends and allies so the experience was not so bad altogether.

 

In fact, I learnt a lot that way about KoS and guard tower mechanics I had not known before. My conclusion was and is that KoS on PvE is absolute rubbish as it is. Contrary to the implausible assertions  and tales of Polojordan KoS does not help a deed owner to hold anyone but absolute newbies away, and cannot provide any protection beyond deed permissions. I was always able to roam every KoS'd area, and do there whatever deed and perimeter permissions allowed (not that I were eager to). Killing templars and guards is no fun as it does not give any fight skill, but it is not hard either. I hated killing tower guards as I considered them - roleplaywise - friends and allies from our Freedom kingdom usually, and it is an outrage to be attacked from towers you so often repaired and improved. It is a perfect griefing tool though.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Ekcin

[Eobersig 1,006]

6 hours ago, Ekcin said:

- Allow only actually premed mayors to uphold KoS. On premium end, all KoS must end too.

- End KoS after 28 days of mayor being logged out on the server.

 

+1 to these two suggestions. Won't completely prevent KoS abuse but goes a long way to reduce abuse of the mechanic.

[CreZ 284]

1 hour ago, Ekcin said:

Contrary to the implausible assertions  and tales of Polojordan KoS does not help a deed owner to hold anyone but absolute newbies away, and cannot provide any protection beyond deed permissions.

 

I'm far less concerned about keepign away people with the skill to kill a guard. By that point they should know enough to recognize and respect deed boundaries or else they are doing whatever they do intentionally. The main thing KoS does is provide a clear and persistent message that someone is not welcome. It's not about killing them its about keeping them away up to and including their death. Its not like its at all difficult to avoid trespassing on people's deeds in the first place so I don't see any reason to nerf the only tool we have for warning people away. This is especially important with people who don't play 24/7 and when dealing with a player from another timezone. New players are historically fond of showing up, looking around for 45 minutes and deciding there is no one active in the area then proceeding to set up a camp inside a deed perimeter while only playing for 30 minutes a day and not being reachable by forums or in game mail to ask them to move on.

[Ekcin 2,407]

58 minutes ago, CreZ said:

..

Its not like its at all difficult to avoid trespassing on people's deeds in the first place so I don't see any reason to nerf the only tool we have for warning people away. This is especially important with people who don't play 24/7 and when dealing with a player from another timezone.

So if you want to preserve KoS as a noob scarecrow, why then those pointless polemics against the proposal as by Polojordan? Why not reading the proposal and commenting on which parts are acceptable and which not?

 

Friends told me, with a good laughter, how they got KoS'd by noobs due to a joke in kingdom chat, and those fools even believed to be able to hold somebody off that way. Their choice. If you see KoS as a noob scarecrow, ok. What do you have against preventing multiple KoS through alts then, against "besiegeing" others' deeds by crap deeds?  What against preventing guard tower abuse? Just saving the coins for a templar? And need to be unpremmed, logged off for months, keeping KoS aktive indefinitely though?

 

And frankly, how many real new players do we have that pose a threat to established deed owners? Actually, a player treated that way, even if s/he misbehaved, may hold grudges, and not stay a newbie all times. If such harrassment - deserved or not - did not drive her or him off Wurm altogether, some retaliation may loom once they are grown up enough to kick back. 

 

Among normal, non toxic players, conflicts may almost always be remediated by talking, in bad cases with mediation by staff. KoS is at best worthless, at worst aggravating.

[Etherdrifter 2,518]

9 hours ago, Ekcin said:

Possible solutions are:

 

(a)- Allow the attacking deeds to be treated like in PvP, citizens be killed, enclosures of any kind be lockpicked and bashed, houses be destroyed, items stolen, and the token be drained once all templars are dead.

(b)-  Remove KoS on Freedom altogether.

 

Less radical solutions were:

 

(c)- Disallow more than 1 KoS per player and server. In KoS declaration, a box had to be checked e.g. "[x] I confirm that no other account played by me has declared KoS on this server".

(d)- Disallow KoS when any alt is connected to the highway system (checkbox similar as above, punishment on offenses in both cases ban of violating accounts).

(e)- Allow only actually premed mayors to uphold KoS. On premium end, all KoS must end too.

(f)- End KoS after 28 days of mayor being logged out on the server.

(g)- Exclude guard towers from KoS on PvE. Alternatively put a price on every tower guard killed or dying (even from natural causes). 5c per guard would be reasonable.

 

(a) - No, this is definitely not acceptable.  It punishes KoS actions and essentially forbids them on PvE

(b) - No, KoS serves a very useful purpose of keeping griefers away from your home.

(c) - No, this just places too many circumventions in place

(d) - No, this means having a deed on a highway is opening yourself up to griefers (which you are much more likely to encounter).  However, a KoS could not kick in if a traveller is on a highway passing through a deed (sort of a safe zone on tiles containing a catseye).  The moment you step off though, it becomes active and stays active for at least 30 mins.

(e) - No, sorry, we all take holidays and this would penalise that.

(g) - No, sorry, if I spend time building a tower, I think I've a right to protection.  Taxing it would punish players who build towers, and preventing guards from joining in would definitely not help.

 

 

 

54 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

Among normal, non toxic players, conflicts may almost always be remediated by talking, in bad cases with mediation by staff. KoS is at best worthless, at worst aggravating.

 

This point, however, is an important one.

 

It either argues that we need to strengthen what KoS does, for example just have it inflict continual damage to the target after 5 mins on deed or in perimeter (enough to pass through the largest of deeds on a highway), or remove it all together (which demands another mechanic for the scenario of "keep off my land you ######", as there are some wurmians out there who are just toxic).

Edited February 26, 2020 by Etherdrifter

[Ekcin 2,407]

29 minutes ago, Etherdrifter said:

If I understand you right, you defend the abuse of alts to declare multiple KoS on one server. Also, you seem either not to have understood KoS, or defend the abuse of alt deeds for highway connected deeds (which themselves cannot declare KoS by game mechanics). 

 

And I do not see what is "penalized" when you cannot keep up KoS when absent for longer time. You seem to want a robot to harrass other people.

 

The ridiculous thing is that nobody with a serious grudge can be held off by KoS. She would, if necessary, train up FS a bit (it takes not much to kill a guard or templar), then do to your perimeter to her or his liking, and that especially when you are absent.

 

KoS is rather a tool to create griefers as it is a griefing tool itself. While I refrained from any aggressive action against the harassing deeds of the molester, I can confirm that every time passing a KoS area and getting the molesting messages alon makes angry, especially when you cannot avoid it. Personally, I did nothing of what I could have done, perfectly inside the rules, just to avoid escalation. There would be a lot of things which could have been done to make the life of a harrasser miserable, yet I did not want to sink on his level. But if you incite such wars you should be prepared that uncomfortable stuff may happen.

 

29 minutes ago, Etherdrifter said:

(g) - No, sorry, if I spend time building a tower, I think I've a right to protection.  Taxing it would punish players who build towers, and preventing guards from joining in would definitely not help.

 

Most guard towers are not built by actual deed owners, but existed previously. I built 5 towers in our area alone (before the journal goal) , none on my own deed, and repaired and maintained many more.  I would resent if anybody abuses them to harass other players. These guards must not be free of charge for a KoS declarer. Either they should be paid like templars, maybe at a lower rate, or not used altogether.

 

29 minutes ago, Etherdrifter said:

This point, however, is an important one.

 

It either argues that we need to strengthen what KoS does, for example just have it inflict continual damage to the target after 5 mins on deed or in perimeter (enough to pass through the largest of deeds on a highway), or remove it all together (which demands another mechanic for the scenario of "keep off my land you ######", as there are some wurmians out there who are just toxic).

 

Indeed, I consider declaring KoS a toxic behaviour. If you haven't enemies before, you certainly have after. Except maybe these clueless noobs who declared KoS on a veteran player who jokingly said in Kingdom "I shall come and raid your place", he was just amused.

[Shrimpiie 3,665]

Short and simple, KoS is not griefing or toxic behavior in the slightest. If someone doesn't want a player to enter the land that THEY pay for, then it is entirely their right to prevent that without the unnecessary restriction of needing to ring in the deed with fences. Players don't have a "right" to be on every deed in Wurm, they have a "privilege" and that privilege can be revoked for whatever reason the mayor deems necessary.

 

The recent incident was honestly the first time I have ever seen or heard of this specific situation occurring, I had no clue you could even KoS yourself, but future incidents can quite easily be handled as necessary depending on frequency.

 

-1 to any changes to the current system, it is more than fine as it is.

[Etherdrifter 2,518]

17 hours ago, Ekcin said:

If I understand you right, you defend the abuse of alts to declare multiple KoS on one server. Also, you seem either not to have understood KoS, or defend the abuse of alt deeds for highway connected deeds (which themselves cannot declare KoS by game mechanics). 

 

And I do not see what is "penalized" when you cannot keep up KoS when absent for longer time. You seem to want a robot to harrass other people.

 

The ridiculous thing is that nobody with a serious grudge can be held off by KoS. She would, if necessary, train up FS a bit (it takes not much to kill a guard or templar), then do to your perimeter to her or his liking, and that especially when you are absent.

 

KoS is rather a tool to create griefers as it is a griefing tool itself. While I refrained from any aggressive action against the harassing deeds of the molester, I can confirm that every time passing a KoS area and getting the molesting messages alon makes angry, especially when you cannot avoid it. Personally, I did nothing of what I could have done, perfectly inside the rules, just to avoid escalation. There would be a lot of things which could have been done to make the life of a harrasser miserable, yet I did not want to sink on his level. But if you incite such wars you should be prepared that uncomfortable stuff may happen.

 

Straw man argument

 

You're implying a cause that doesn't exist, if you believe a KoS deed was created for griefing purposes, get a GM involved.  That is what they are there for.

 

 

17 hours ago, Ekcin said:

Most guard towers are not built by actual deed owners, but existed previously. I built 5 towers in our area alone (before the journal goal) , none on my own deed, and repaired and maintained many more.  I would resent if anybody abuses them to harass other players. These guards must not be free of charge for a KoS declarer. Either they should be paid like templars, maybe at a lower rate, or not used altogether.

 

Some build them, some don't easy fix.  If you made the tower, or someone on your deed did, the guards take part.  Simple fix really.

 

17 hours ago, Ekcin said:

Indeed, I consider declaring KoS a toxic behaviour. If you haven't enemies before, you certainly have after. Except maybe these clueless noobs who declared KoS on a veteran player who jokingly said in Kingdom "I shall come and raid your place", he was just amused.

 

I've KoSed someone and it worked very well to keep them out of my area, or at least it did when everyone in my alliance joined in to do it.

 

A single player KoSing a bad player, isn't going to do much, and it really shouldn't.  However, a large number of people all considering the same person a bad player?  Well....  That can really have an impact, especially if joined with a trade embargo and other penalties.


Of course, a simler solution to this all crossed my mind.  KoS a player, and nothing happens.  Except, when they enter the deed a counter is incremented on their account, and they are given a visisble warning.

Once a player has a certain number of such flags against them, a GM is automatically notified and the matter is investigated (is it a grief deed, is it a player continually trespassing, is it just a player using a highway through a deed they are KoSed on).

From there the GM either shadow de-activates the KoS (so it has no effect for that deed, even though the player who placed it sees it as being in effect), or the GMs have evidence of harrassment and the offending player gets a ban with the KoSer notified of this, or if no evidence is in place the GM's click a "wait" button and if 2x the threshold is crossed then repeat till one form of resolution comes into play.

[Ekcin 2,407]

Thanks for the answer. I still do not really see an impact if a player really is "a bad player". I doubt I shall ever get into a situation where anybody but a psycho would KoS me as a person. And I doubt there are psycho alliances on Wurm. So I cannot comment on that.

 

The griefing occurs when a deed is planted next to your perimeter, and maybe others into your daily ways. I think most deeds are vulnerable to such kind of attack. Together with a guard tower they constitute a powerful harrassment tool. And it is cheap: 2s for a 1 time prem alt, max 9,5s for a 45x43 sized  deed (which would block much of one side of any small and middle sized deed), 13.05s for one year automatic harassment, no need to play Wurm during that time.

 

I experienced that "straw man argument". Now "prove" that the sole or main purpose was to grief you. How do you prove an intention?

 

 

[atazs 965]

On 2/26/2020 at 6:15 PM, Ekcin said:

Well, I did not want to bother GM with my problems.

Well, there is your issue. 

You come here, trying to change a massive part of the game that affects everyone playing, simply because you didnt want to bother the people who are there, and are possibly paid for to enforce and look into these things. 

 

-1 

Edited February 27, 2020 by atazs

[Ekcin 2,407]

You are spreading accusations without any knowledge of the issues. It is not that I did not speak with friends who are part of the support team. It is simply as I stated above: try to prove intentions. I described how such a harrassment works. And there is nothing directly against the rules in it, only it harms those who are victim of such attacks. And if the offender flatly denies that he has the intention of harassment, or even logs off leaving the KoS in place, the GM team cannot do a lot.

 

And it is ridiculous and pathetic to call that KoS stuff, especially the circumvention of the rules concerning highway connection and KoS "a massive part of the game". It is self delusional that KoS really abhors "bad players". If it abhors them it is a strong indication that they are not that "bad".

[Polojordan 128]

I think there might have been some confusion about what i posted before.

 

I don't know you or anything about you. The comments i made were off of my own experiences and nothing else.

 

What I was trying to say previously is that there is a use for KoS. I like how the mechanic for KoS works and i would keep it as is

[Ekcin 2,407]

Thanks for the clarification. I politely disagree to your point in so far as there may be some use for KoS, but still I fail to see a justification for KoS by makeshift alts, even basic accounts and unpremed, multiple KoS circumventing the highway restriction, and lasting KoS even when not online for months or even years etc. Also I consider planting KoS deeds as abusive, only the malevolent intention to be hard if impossible to prove.

 

In a game banning botting, such a harrassment bot is simply out of place. As a PvP feature in PvP environments it makes sense, though.

[CreZ 284]

1 hour ago, Ekcin said:

I fail to see a justification for KoS by makeshift alts

 

I have mutliple small deeds as part of my alliance which is essentially one deed complex but spread out and with a body of water in the middle. Even on the "main" deeds the mayors are mayor alts out of habits picked up from the nuisance of being unable to do things because you took your character to another server and it happened to be the deed holder. Should I be limited to putting a KoS on only one part of my area? Given that all the mayors are "makeshift alts" should I be prevented form any KoS at all?

 

I can see a clear case for griefing in the idea of someone founding a deed right next to you (full stop right there as griefing in my book...) and putting a KoS on you. Even more so if they never play. To me that ought to raise some flags to a game master who investigates it. Much like dropping a dirt or cutting a tree to claim a unique shows that you were there first I think the age of a deed and the speed with which a KoS is applied should be pretty obvious.

 

This edge, maybe even corner, case should not be the incentive to deny the rest of us our ability to KoS people we don't want present on our deeded lands. Doubly so when there are channels with which one could appeal the perceieved griefing.

[Etherdrifter 2,518]

20 hours ago, Ekcin said:

I experienced that "straw man argument". Now "prove" that the sole or main purpose was to grief you. How do you prove an intention?

 

The KoS deeds?  Pretty easy to check deed creation dates, and KoS instantiation dates.

[Finnn 3,303]

1 hour ago, Etherdrifter said:

 

The KoS deeds?  Pretty easy to check deed creation dates, and KoS instantiation dates.

Are we suggesting sql check and gm slap for the mechanic abusers 😲, or general penalty for such behavior?