Retrograde

The Future of RMT in Wurm and Price Reductions

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1 hour ago, Ekcin said:

 

I recall you posted this already. It is not correct though. As also mentioned already, the issues with currency are more complex. The only ways to create ingame currency are emissions by the company over the kingdom coffers, and buying ingame money from the shop. All silver bought from players is already in circulation, or, more exactly, in player possession. 

 

Generally, a currency system consists of money produced, money in thesauri, and money in circulation. The amount of circulating quantity is highly variable as it is the product of transaction speed and circulating quantity. In game, money is continuously destroyed/recollected by the company through trader sales such as contracts, orbs etc., upkeep, and ingame premium purchase. 

 

In the RMT system, silver sales from shop marked the marginal cost of silver acquistion. Such sales were the only fully reliable and for practical purpose infinite source of fulfilling silver demand, and everybody needing larger amounts of silver fast or just needed it at once used them. RMT silver sales just reactivated thesauri. Whether or not the demise of RMT silver purchase will increase company revenue has still to be seen. On implementation of the RMT removal there has been a 37.5% price cut for silver sale from the shop. It is doubtful that the additional demand for ingame silver after player to player silver sales being gone will make up for.

 

Reason for RMT removal was not scratching more money out of a dwindling player base but complying with Valve's terms.

 

 

Your assesment is well thought out but wrong. The problem is that there are two facts you left out from the RMT analysis.

 

1) Traders. Traders were a significant influx of silver into the game that did not result in the generation of revenue for the company. There were countless of traders left over from over nearly 15 years of the existence of Wild who were often tapped by a small number of people. Considering my Trader on Chaos made me about 13 silver each time it was refilled (iirc) and considering I know at least one person who had secured 13 traders, I can tell you with great certainty that this means a monthly loss in revenue of over 250e each month from the company. Now that was from a single player alone. Imagine how much was lost if we count every single trader drained in the game?

 

2) Whales. In most games that have some form of premium currency there are players who don't have the time or patience to do the grind necesary to acquire the materials or do the labor they need for their projects. So they buy silver. Now if RMT is allowed, those who have the time, patience (or bots) to do the grind will trade labor for silver (or milk Traders as mentioned above) and then sell that silver to the whales since they can always afford to undercut the company. This can result in a net loss for the company, since as you pointed out above they are only selling silver already in circulation, part of it that was never even paid for in the first place.

 

Since the decision and changes that came from banning RMT I did my first silver purchase from the Wurm Shop after 2 years or more of having bought exclusively from other players. The system works, and saying revenue was not the reason is misleading at best.

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17 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

Your assesment is well thought out but wrong. The problem is that there are two facts you left out from the RMT analysis.

 

1) Traders. Traders were a significant influx of silver into the game that did not result in the generation of revenue for the company. ..

2) Whales. In most games that have some form of premium currency there are players who don't have the time or patience to do the grind ..

 

Since the decision and changes that came from banning RMT I did my first silver purchase from the Wurm Shop after 2 years or more of having bought exclusively from other players. The system works, and saying revenue was not the reason is misleading at best.

 

About the last statement: Can't tell about you of course, but I bought ingame silver only twice, both times through the shop. Reason was that the amounts were not high, and the players I would have trusted had already sold their silver, so saving a few euro was no issue. 

 

As to traders: I did not comment on player owned traders as I did never bother about them (and did not fully understand the system)  because they do not exist on Xanadu. But what I know is 1. that a trader cost 50s and 2. it was claimed in the forums that a trader did pay the investment only after two years or so so that the generation of new purchasing power would be moderate. And as I understood the system, trader revenue was only a share of the turnover made by traders, so that, again, money was redistributed, not created. I am certain about that with public traders on Xanadu.

 

And the "whales":, ok. Of course there are players who spend more, more ingame silver as well as real world money. But would they all have bought from players, and continued to spend on upkeep, contracts, maybe items like orbs etc. as well,  there should not be any silver left in the economy unless the company would "helicopter" some. Because ingame silver is constantly withdrawn from the economy, mostly as described, to some extent too by players leaving forever with silver on the bank.

 

I did not cover the question whether the RMT removal will create net revenue for the company. I contradicted that it would do the way the previous poster had described. To know about whether revenue will rise, one had to know the proportion of player2player vs. shop silver trade as well as the gross amount. Only then one could answer the question whether increased silver turnover in the shop will make up for price reduction.

 

That said, I want to stress that I approve the decision to get rid of RMT, albeit with some fears concerning black market intruders from outside. RMT kept crime off Wurm. Other problems may arise with privacy issues, in particular due to the ban of account transfer. But that is a different story.

 

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1 hour ago, Ekcin said:

As to traders: I did not comment on player owned traders as I did never bother about them (and did not fully understand the system)  because they do not exist on Xanadu. But what I know is 1. that a trader cost 50s and 2. it was claimed in the forums that a trader did pay the investment only after two years or so so that the generation of new purchasing power would be moderate. And as I understood the system, trader revenue was only a share of the turnover made by traders, so that, again, money was redistributed, not created. I am certain about that with public traders on Xanadu.

This is mostly false. As I explained above, I could pull at least 12-13s from the trader each cycle. Each cycle last roughly about a month. It takes roughly 5 months for that trader to pay itself off. Granted this was on Chaos, which arguably they payouts were better due to deed upkeep, but I am not sure about that. But the most important part is that none of the current owners paid for these traders. Since traders (until the recent update) were permanent, they would change hands over the years. I never paid a single silver for my trader, but I milked it dutifully each month and dumped the money in upkeep or used it to purchase deed materials.

 

And no, their money doesn't come from purchases done at that trader. That is partially false. It may come from purchases, sure, but traders have a formula that as long as a certain ratio of purchase to sale was maintained, the system would refill its silver from the coffers each cycle. So I would buy about a silver or two on items from the trader and then sell it jewelry ending up with 12-13 silver profit every cycle. Traders generate silver that is not otherwise purchased from the Wurm Shop (or rather, they did.).

 

1 hour ago, Ekcin said:

And the "whales":, ok. Of course there are players who spend more, more ingame silver as well as real world money. But would they all have bought from players, and continued to spend on upkeep, contracts, maybe items like orbs etc. as well,  there should not be any silver left in the economy unless the company would "helicopter" some. Because ingame silver is constantly withdrawn from the economy, mostly as described, to some extent too by players leaving forever with silver on the bank.

This is also not accurate. Lets use me as an example since I do consider myself a whale.

 

Today I decide I want to build a deed. I need a total of 18k bricks, 18k mortar and about 10k extra stuff. So lets say its a total of 50 silver because my regular seller gives me a discount. 

 

So I contact my other bud Silvertrader and buy 50s from him. 50s for 50e. Then I contact Mr. Bulkmonster and place my order. A few days later Bulkmonster delivers and I begin building my deed.

 

Bulkmonster takes my 50s and he buys enough raw materials to replenish his stock and more from Silvertrader, who happens to gather basic resources to sell (rock, clay, sand, etc). Now the 50s I bought are back on the hands of Silvertrader to be sold to me again at a future date.

 

This silver never enters a silver sink because it is simply circulating from player to player to pay for goods, services and products.  This added to silver produced from store sales, traders, foraging, hunting, etc creates a surplus that is not being removed sufficiently fast by normal game mechanics. The game doesn't have enough silver sinks to make a difference (Sleep powders are sold by players waaay cheaper than the traders and deeds are simply not enough, as a year of upkeep costs about the same or less a trader can produce in a month on Chaos.)

 

By removing trader's ability to produce silver and reducing prices helps to increase this silver sink to remove silver from circulation, so this is expected to create a demand for silver, thus prompting people to buy more. And since RMT is no longer allowed, these people have no option but go to the Wurm Shop for their silver. Profit!

 

 

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1 hour ago, Angelklaine said:

And no, their money doesn't come from purchases done at that trader. That is partially false. It may come from purchases, sure, but traders have a formula that as long as a certain ratio of purchase to sale was maintained, the system would refill its silver from the coffers each cycle. So I would buy about a silver or two on items from the trader and then sell it jewelry ending up with 12-13 silver profit every cycle. Traders generate silver that is not otherwise purchased from the Wurm Shop (or rather, they did.).

 

Traders don't generate it though. Like you say, it comes from the (king's) coffers. That's not an infinite source, the game actually does the accounting on it. Deed upkeep fills the king's coffers, and refilling a trader empties it, as does finding a coin when foraging/botanizing and burying corpses.

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1 hour ago, Lisimba said:

 

Traders don't generate it though. Like you say, it comes from the (king's) coffers. That's not an infinite source, the game actually does the accounting on it. Deed upkeep fills the king's coffers, and refilling a trader empties it, as does finding a coin when foraging/botanizing and burying corpses.

Yes but its like reducing the amount that gets removed by the silver sinks in place. Its a coin that was removed from circulation being brought back into the commerce. This coin was already used and instead of being removed is going back out, reducing the need for players to purchase it from the cash shop.

 

The effect on the economy is the same.

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5 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

Considering my Trader on Chaos made me about 13 silver each time it was refilled (iirc) and considering I know at least one person who had secured 13 traders, I can tell you with great certainty that this means a monthly loss in revenue of over 250e each month from the company. Now that was from a single player alone. Imagine how much was lost if we count every single trader drained in the game?

 

That's extremely far from a baseline to count for all traders in the game.  For many years, my trader on desertion would give me on average 50c-2s, there was even a time it didn't gain any money for months.  Our trader on Independence is even worse, the payout was so bad that the 20% upkeep reduction is so much better.  When we had 4 traders on elevation to help pay for the capital deed with all these land bonuses and what not, we would have gotten more than 10s.. with them all combined.  The times when most traders would give 10+s a month regularly are times when most current players hadn't even found wurm yet.

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If my memory serves me correctly there is a percentage of all money in the kings coffers that is removed from the game. The kings coffers silver comes from upkeep and I think the 10% taken from merchant sales. While a lot of people say that the traders money is free money it had to have been purchased at one point . Its more like recycled and 10% thrown out of the game each time its recycled back in the coffers because I would image a large amount of that trader money was added right back in to pay for that persons upkeep.

 

What I find extremely humorous  is the amount of people on here who are so worried about code club not making a profit because those traders were robbing Rolf blind and his kids was gonna have to go to school barefoot because he couldn't afford to buy them shoes. Yet no one complains or has 20 threads about token sales, money for foraging, killing, etc...…….

 

Its the same damn money being freely given away and you don't even have to buy something expensive from the cash shop to get it. Given the amounts people have posted on here they get from their trader I myself have regularly made more than that just killing mobs. Its not uncommon to get a silver coin from hunting or foraging although 5 and 20 copper seems to be the most common for me but they add up fast.

 

If trader money was sending Rolf to the poor house shouldn't this money being hemorrhaged out also be doing the same. Since no one complains about this it makes me doubt their concern over Code Club profits was the real issue regarding trader draining complaints.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, MrGARY said:

 

That's extremely far from a baseline to count for all traders in the game.  For many years, my trader on desertion would give me on average 50c-2s, there was even a time it didn't gain any money for months.  Our trader on Independence is even worse, the payout was so bad that the 20% upkeep reduction is so much better.  When we had 4 traders on elevation to help pay for the capital deed with all these land bonuses and what not, we would have gotten more than 10s.. with them all combined.  The times when most traders would give 10+s a month regularly are times when most current players hadn't even found wurm yet.

My statement on traders was not a guess. This is the trader at Antioch when I was with The Crusaders. I stated it was in Chaos which at that time had a lot of money going in from upkeeps and things like res stones and shaker orbs. That might be why, I am not sure of the mechanics. But what I am sure of is I was draining about 12s every month from that trader which was enough to pay for full upkeep, deed mats and even the occasional res stone.

 

Now about other servers? No idea. Never tapped a Trader on Freedom, which I made clear above.

Edited by Angelklaine

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1 hour ago, Evilvision said:

If trader money was sending Rolf to the poor house shouldn't this money being hemorrhaged out also be doing the same. Since no one complains about this it makes me doubt their concern over Code Club profits was the real issue regarding trader draining complaints.

No complaints bud. Its just an explanation as to why the Trader and RMT change was instituted and how these changes were made to bump the company's bottom line, instead of being a change made purely because of Steam rules. I don't think people really care where their money ends up.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

My statement on traders was not a guess. This is the trader at Antioch when I was with The Crusaders. I stated it was in Chaos which at that time had a lot of money going in from upkeeps and things like res stones and shaker orbs. That might be why, I am not sure of the mechanics. But what I am sure of is I was draining about 12s every month from that trader which was enough to pay for full upkeep, deed mats and even the occasional res stone.

 

Now about other servers? No idea. Never tapped a Trader on Freedom, which I made clear above.

on pvp servers upkeep from your deeds and whatnot only go to your own kingdoms traders, so like, if crusaders were spending a gold in upkeep a month, you're probably seeing 50s or so split across all traders in the kingdom. pve it's split between everyones traders. compared to pve where there's more deeds but a much higher ratio of traders to deeds, most servers were in the range of 1-6s a month, with deli being the lowest and cele/indy being the highest from personal experience.

Edited by Oblivionnreaver
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37 minutes ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

on pvp servers upkeep from your deeds and whatnot only go to your own kingdoms traders, so like, if crusaders were spending a gold in upkeep a month, you're probably seeing 50s or so split across all traders in the kingdom. pve it's split between everyones traders. compared to pve where there's more deeds but a much higher ratio of traders to deeds, most servers were in the range of 1-6s a month, with deli being the lowest and cele/indy being the highest from personal experience.

Well that would explain it. Thanks for the clarification!

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31 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

No complaints bud. Its just an explanation as to why the Trader and RMT change was instituted and how these changes were made to bump the company's bottom line, instead of being a change made purely because of Steam rules. I don't think people really care where their money ends up.

 

Yeah I am not so much even talking about what people have even said about traders here in this thread. I myself have never approved of RMT and Traders. I have said many times how I feel RMT specifically account sales was bad for the game. I did eventually get a trader myself you know if they aren't gonna remove them I might as well take advantage of it also. Not that I can say I made a crap ton off it but it did pay itself off and made extra since I had it a while. Once again I am fine with trader changes also.

 

I am just pointing out the fact that people complained hard about the traders taking money from the game then the first fix was to take some of the money away from the traders and add coins from hunting , foraging etc etc. This all comes from the same pool. Now the latest fix traders no longer pays out. Now all of the money in the pool goes out to hunting, foraging etc etc. So how has it changing the bottom line when it still all being handed out only the method has changed.

 

While once again I am happy with new RMT changes they are just like 15 years too late being added. I just wanted to point it out since no one else will that all I have learned from the whole trader thing is passing out money to select people with traders hurts the bottom line but handing it out to everyone doesn't. logical right.

 

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1 hour ago, Angelklaine said:

No complaints bud. Its just an explanation as to why the Trader and RMT change was instituted and how these changes were made to bump the company's bottom line, instead of being a change made purely because of Steam rules. I don't think people really care where their money ends up.

 

 Sure you have your answer by now, but traders on Freedom payed jack and ###### for years since the forage for coin was introduced to the game, I cant speak for Chaos but they never payed that well on freedom even before the changes, most that complained never bought one from the game. 

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I might actually buy one now for my Xanadu deed since there no longer is a need to hide it.

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On 3/9/2020 at 9:18 PM, Evilvision said:

I  am just pointing out the fact that people complained hard about the traders taking money from the game then the first fix was to take some of the money away from the traders and add coins from hunting , foraging etc etc. This all comes from the same pool. Now the latest fix traders no longer pays out. Now all of the money in the pool goes out to hunting, foraging etc etc. So how has it changing the bottom line when it still all being handed out only the method has changed.

The pool used to be split xx amount for the sell/moi and xx amount for traders. I suspect that the xx amount for sell/moi has not changed. That they just took out the trader precent and did not make it so the moi system has a larger chunk. 

 

Or at least that's my guess. It wouldn't make sense to give it all to the moi/sell system. If your trying to remove/cut down on game generated coin.

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45 minutes ago, Ohana said:

The pool used to be split xx amount for the sell/moi and xx amount for traders. I suspect that the xx amount for sell/moi has not changed. That they just took out the trader precent and did not make it so the moi system has a larger chunk. 

 

Or at least that's my guess. It wouldn't make sense to give it all to the moi/sell system. If your trying to remove/cut down on game generated coin.

 

From what I know about the mechanics it's not split beforehand. Coins from hunting/foraging/etc come directly out of the king's coffers, and if those are empty you just don't get anything. The money that went to traders also came out of the king's coffers whenever a redistribution happened, so with traders no longer getting money, that coin just stays in the king's coffers and is available to be had via other routes.

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Nah it was different pools. Ohana is right

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49 minutes ago, Lisimba said:

The money that went to traders also came out of the king's coffers whenever a redistribution happened, so with traders no longer getting money, that coin just stays in the king's coffers and is available to be had via other routes.

 

Rolf stated when he added the others option that the traders had a dedicated portion of the kingdom funds allocated to them, so logically with that portion and dedicated pool removed, all should go to the others options... unless they were secretely changed as well.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Odynn said:

 

Rolf stated when he added the others option that the traders had a dedicated portion of the kingdom funds allocated to them, so logically with that portion and dedicated pool removed, all should go to the others options... unless they were secretely changed as well.

This was already discussed here. They already said it will be unaffected.

 

Specifically here:

 

It is two separate pools. Looks like coins from foraging/hunting do not come from Kingdom funds.

Edited by Angelklaine
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Posted (edited)
On 3/10/2020 at 4:40 AM, Angelklaine said:

This is mostly false. As I explained above, I could pull at least 12-13s from the trader each cycle. Each cycle last roughly about a month. It takes roughly 5 months for that trader to pay itself off. Granted this was on Chaos, which arguably they payouts were better due to deed upkeep, but I am not sure about that. But the most important part is that none of the current owners paid for these traders. Since traders (until the recent update) were permanent, they would change hands over the years. I never paid a single silver for my trader, but I milked it dutifully each month and dumped the money in upkeep or used it to purchase deed materials.

 

And no, their money doesn't come from purchases done at that trader. That is partially false. It may come from purchases, sure, but traders have a formula that as long as a certain ratio of purchase to sale was maintained, the system would refill its silver from the coffers each cycle. So I would buy about a silver or two on items from the trader and then sell it jewelry ending up with 12-13 silver profit every cycle. Traders generate silver that is not otherwise purchased from the Wurm Shop (or rather, they did.).

 

  

On 3/10/2020 at 1:53 AM, Angelklaine said:

considering I know at least one person who had secured 13 traders

 

Could be wrong but have a feeling you are referring to me. Whilst it's all rather irrelevant as it's all been changed now just some info from my point of view:

 

You absolutely cannot say because you got X amount of silver from one trader all of the others would get the same, I'm not sure on the exact mechanics but having more people in the local area of a trader absolutely increased the payout, my assumption is when distribution was triggered ie "an envoy to the king" event message the payout would be greater if someone was nearby at the time.

 

I had about 30 traders - my most profitable ones were close to Kyara and literally printed silver all day long, some of them spat out 50s/month on a regular basis - ones close to highways were decent if you were lucky you got 5 silver. Ones in the woods were absolutely worthless, they were fine before trader mechanics were tweaked but afterwards you could get 20 copper after a whole month sometimes and I guarantee you no one else touched them for that time. I no doubt lost money on the traders I put down in remote locations

 

90% of these traders were paid for out of pocket. You can't simply take over abandoned traders and manage more than 10 of them without it becoming a full time job, the way to do it was to line them all up so they were exactly 50 tiles apart in strategic locations so you could hit them all in an afternoon, you can't spend half a day running around the map - that's madness especially considering the required repairs to off deed structures. 

 

Also if a village disbanded and a trader was a citizen of the village (which they were automatically) they would disappear when the deed disbanded, the only traders which stuck around were ones that had been kicked out of the village and if the village was left to rot chances are they didn't have that foresight. 

 

Over 2 years my average was approximately 5 silver per trader but that was boosted massively due to the ones near Kyara. 

Edited by Gavin
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