Retrograde

The Future of RMT in Wurm and Price Reductions

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Is there a point to discuss any of this.. it was an announcement, not a poll for anybody's opinion.

I had an opinion but seemed pointless to share or comment on anything here.

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8 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

If the seller winds up with money that can use that silver for upkeep, premium, or other trades. 

 

I would agree with that if the market would be able to guarantee future sales but how many people are going to risk plokning a 250x250 deed, not knowing if they can pay the upkeep for it next month using ingame income alone? People who were willing to pay with real money, made those deeds already. People who are making money solely in game, will hardly risk having a big deed for a month and then not be able to support it because their sales went down for one reason or another.

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2 minutes ago, Finnn said:

Is there a point to discuss any of this..

 

so people can rant or cheer depending on their stance on the subject and really there is nothing anyone can do it has been decided and will not be changed no matter who cries about it.

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On 2/3/2020 at 4:51 AM, Retrograde said:

I knew you as the gem buyer before I met you, during your hiatus. 

 

Rest assured you can still buy silver, just not sell silver. Once it's bought it can be traded as any way it used to be, just not resold for cash. 

 

I appreciate that my reputation proceeds me. 😊

 

However, what I was trying to express is that I would buy gold and trinkets from other places, often at ~85% of the price of the store. Effectively allowing me to purchase an additional ~17s for the same amount of real life money.

This may seem inconsequential when you talk about 1g or even 5g, at one point I had 280+ ktql* in gems and valued them at 2c/ql (quick math works out to be 56+ gold) that 15% decrease would have meant significant amounts of silver not being in circulation.

It also allowed multiple people to be able to buy premium from the store (before you could do silver to prem time - I'm old school remember), the ability to buy premium time with silver is still one of the best things out there.

 

* Important note - some gems were bought at auction and were paid for below the standard price I paid and a few were gifted to me.

 

FWIW - I really wish I could have access to the PayPal logs from '08-'12, at one point I had 12 accounts premium and was buying gems (among other trinkets) at an alarming rate. It would certainly dwarf my previous post's spending numbers by a substantial amount. 

 

Lastly, please note, I am neither for/nor against this change, merely just expressing facts to consider for both sides.

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1 hour ago, Locath said:

 

I would agree with that if the market would be able to guarantee future sales but how many people are going to risk plokning a 250x250 deed, not knowing if they can pay the upkeep for it next month using ingame income alone? People who were willing to pay with real money, made those deeds already. People who are making money solely in game, will hardly risk having a big deed for a month and then not be able to support it because their sales went down for one reason or another.


They'll just have to downsize or recruit. There really isn't any reason for 1 person to have a deed that big...

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Why on earth would you want/need 250x250 deed? 😮 20x25 is more than enough for one player, expecially with well planned cave beneath it which effectively almost doubles that size.

never understood people with huge deeds tbh.

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13 minutes ago, kochinac said:

Why on earth would you want/need 250x250 deed? 😮 20x25 is more than enough for one player, expecially with well planned cave beneath it which effectively almost doubles that size.

never understood people with huge deeds tbh.

I guess the answer lies in that it just makes someone happy? You don't need to grind 90 beverages but some do.

 

Neccesity is really just one force governing markets and actions. Some people just like to do certain things * shrugs *.

 

I do agree on the size personally, but I wouldn't judge someone for having a huge deed spanning 3 locals :)

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10 minutes ago, elentari said:

I guess the answer lies in that it just makes someone happy? You don't need to grind 90 beverages but some do.

 

If it makes them happy, why shouldn't it after the rmt changes? A 250x250 (more exactly 249x249 or 251x251) deed would have costed 1250 (1251,1249) silver on creation and 125s (125.1, 124.9) silver upkeep. Does that really come from traders every month? If it comes from silver purchase, new silver prices from shop are fairly equal to traditional rmt silver trade. 

 

Quote

Neccesity is really just one force governing markets and actions. Some people just like to do certain things * shrugs *.

I do agree on the size personally, but I wouldn't judge someone for having a huge deed spanning 3 locals :)

 

No problem with somebody being happy with an oversized deed as long as it is not too close to a starter city (blocking newcomers from settling, exploring, foraging and harvesting). But it had to be paid for all times.

 

Edited by Ekcin
typo

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19 hours ago, Locath said:

 

I don't think it will boil down to geolocation. Just sharing IP with other players who clearly are not the owner. Probably doesn't matter where in the world or what specific IP is the toon connecting from but if it shares the IP with multiple other players who are never the same (a.k.a. my other characters, those would always share the IP, no matter where it's pointing to. Yours would connect from a separate IP to mine, always. Unless playing from a college campus maybe?). 

 

so if my accounts connect from IP xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx and yours are connecting from xxx.xxx.xxx.xxy but one of the characters connects from both, it's clearily shared. Rest of my toons won't connect from your IP unless i give you access to all of them just to populate your IP on all of them.

 

Still, we can share the toon, 2 or 3 people can. Problems come when the character follows the sun and is a character who connects along with my toons, yours, Retro's and 7 other people's and they each have a bunch of toons connecting from the same IP at the time, except that one toon is connecting from their IP, mine, yours and so on.

 

All that is already collected even by WU, probably to a bigger extent in WO, just a matter of automating the analysis/alerting.


And then we run into the issue of isp wide nat's where an isp has a grand total of 100 or 1000 ip's yet have 40-50k people behind it which again is also something a lot of isp's do so even if its just based on ip this will also be an issue or say university/school and such

There are a lot of reasons why having it just based on ip will be really bad :(

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Yes, that is why having it just based on ip is bad

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I don't understand this obsession with IPs. Absolutely nobody competent uses IPs beyond correlating other techniques and for tripping reauthentication.

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25 minutes ago, Batolemaeus said:

I don't understand this obsession with IPs. Absolutely nobody competent uses IPs beyond correlating other techniques and for tripping reauthentication.

 

Methinks they're trying to find loopholes or ways to convince CC to revert the RMT ruling (with a couple in the mix having legitimate concerns).  I mean, Wurm is the only game in the entire industry where not all the players have static IP's ^_^ 

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For anyone who has a spare 4hrs (lol) we covered off all of the new updates on our Wurm Wednesday stream on Twitch.

The good and bad aspects, the impacts and what needs to be done from here and what needs to be tweaked. 

 

Spoiler

 



Feedback and thoughts are welcome, cheers!

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15 hours ago, Toma said:

1.  You will still effectively able to buy bulk goods with real money.  The only difference for you here is that you buy from the wurm shop, not another player.  This is a price that is nearly the same as the existing price of silver from players before this change (1s =e) AND you get bonus loyalty marks which can be spent on goodies.  So now you can buy more stuff and from the official seller so no risk of scamming.  For buying bulk goods, this is an improvement.

You are forgetting one aspect. Many of the bulk sellers, like me, will quit. That will lead to lack of bulk goods on the market, which will in turn lead to increased prices or increased difficulty in finding what you need. Many of the people that wrote here believe that if they never involved themselves in the RMT aspect of the game, they will not be affected. In reality, these big changes will send a shock wake  throughout the entire economy of the game, no matter if you engaged in RMT or not. Ismira used to buy bulk goods from me (and probably other bulk sellers) and this is the best example how both seller and buyer will have to quit. As for scamming, i've done literally hundreds of trades and not once had any problem. The wurm community is indeed awsome regarding this aspect of fair trade.

Edited by Darkstorm
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17 minutes ago, Darkstorm said:

Many of the bulk sellers, like me, will quit. That will lead to lack of bulk goods on the market, which will in turn lead to increased prices or increased difficulty in finding what you need.

Or it will lead to new sellers that gets a piece of the cake.

 

Im glad they finally are doing something they believe will benefit them and the game as a whole.

This is not personal to anyone, but i truly believe that if 1, 2, 10 or 50 players quit the game for this, thats ok. I believe that Steam will bring several hundreds (maybe thousands) of new players into the game. Heck, WU have sold between 200.000 and 500.000 copies! Steam has a steady, big draft of new players trying out games.

Now if 2, 3, 11 or 51 new players stay after the 1, 2, 10 or 50 players leave, we have a growth in the now-declining player base.

 

Growth is good, and to be fair - it will lead to new sellers selling their bulk or whatever.

Now if you only sell goods to get RL cash, thats a real shame for you. You will lose your job (which at some companies is required to make more money for the company). If you however just enjoy the economic aspect of the game and do it for pure pleasure, you should reconcider and think about the advantage in knowledge you will have compared to all those noobs wanting your goods.

 

The people who runs this company wants to make money. The furtunate point, for us players, is that it also means they want more players. More players means a better economy. If you quit the game, you will just pass on the torch to another (or hopefully two) new player that sees the opportunity.

 

As i said, this was nothing personal to you, Darkstorm. I just wanted release some air. :)

Edited by Nordlys
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7 minutes ago, Nordlys said:

Now if you only sell goods to get RL cash, thats a real shame for you. If you however just enjoy the economic aspect of the game and do it for pure pleasure, you should reconcider and think about the advantage in knowledge you will have compared to all those noobs wanting your goods.

WO was the perfect combination for my play style. In every game i played, i loved to understand the economy, how to earn gold, how to spend it. WO gave me the option to exchange my work for some pocket money, which made it unique. But i also play the game like anyone else, i have a deed on which i build, terraform, i have farms, and forests and animals. The fact that i could make some cash with my extra time was just a bonus. 

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Generally, I like what the team is doing overall.  Making some bold moves.  Something had to give and glad to see some real stances on some issues.  
 

Hope it pays off in the long run. 
 

I never felt that RMT was much if an issue, but the point is that many players did.   By itself this would be change for change sake, but coupled with the many other changes - then this might positively affect some of the playerbase’s negative culture. 
 

I am rooting for this game, and fully support any DECISIONS and ACTIONS that are not just reactionary.   
 

Good luck.  

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1 hour ago, Nordlys said:

This is not personal to anyone, but i truly believe that if 1, 2, 10 or 50 players quit the game for this, thats ok. I believe that Steam will bring several hundreds (maybe thousands) of new players into the game.

 

In a game where everything is player made... loosing 50 or 100 of your original community due to a 180° change is bad... also Wurm retention is awful. Ask anyone who hosted new player academies or newbie friendly deeds how many stayed... the answer is less than 1%.

 

Killing the Wurm Online community (which is why some of us are still playing...) and dropping all updates on Wurm Unlimited is a really risky move. But hey, depending on the answers on traders, i might leave myself and won't bother anymore with any of this... so think what you want... it won't matters to me (and the dozens or so of players i personally know who already left the game).

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Personally I won't miss people constantly spamming the trade chats "Selling 2 gold. Selling 40 Silvers, etc." At its core, that's money that never went into CCAR due to it being an RMT trade and to another extent, money that probably never went back into wurm's economy. Some of that simply went into deed upkeep or valuable items such as tomes.

 

It's money that over time, if i'd just make a blind estimate, would be worth at least a few thousand euros , if not more. That's money that could have been used to fix bugs that people have been clamoring about for ages. Money that could have been used to add much needed updates in some instances.

 

But no. Making 20 $ on selling some silvers was more important than supporting a game that literally IS unique on the market. No other game exists at the moment that offers the breadth of possibilities like wurm.  But yeah...let's keep hearing the same old argument that RMT was "a good thing" in wurm. Let's hear how it's a "devastating" blow to the game. I'd write a few nasty editorials, but I'll censor myself.

 

2 hours ago, Darkstorm said:

You are forgetting one aspect. Many of the bulk sellers, like me, will quit. That will lead to lack of bulk goods on the market, which will in turn lead to increased prices or increased difficulty in finding what you need.

 

Man, the market is over saturated with goods due to lack of object decay. Even if half the wurm crafting population quit, there would still be a huge competition to sell things.

What do people do when a deed disbands? Neighbours go to it to salvage everything of value. Those are items that never leave the game. Bulk bricks, high ql tools with enchants, anything that can be sold is salvaged . Wurmians seldom waste anything. Isn't there a library of threads that talk about how wurm has no market sinks for goods?

 

We are if anything, probably the most practical lot of gamers out there. The wurm economy won't falter. If anything, any $ CCAR makes is a boon to us as well since the devs can actually invest to better the game for us in the long run.

 

I'll miss no one that glorified RMT over the years to their own personal gain and turned Wurm into their own little money scheme at the expense of the devs who could have used that money to ya know...develop the game?

 

 * Rant over. Sorry. Stressful work  day.  *

Edited by elentari
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First of all i have no opinion about RMT removing. I always bought silvers but never sold them for RM (as i only have something to spend on ingame :D), the only difference now for me is i will have to buy them from shop instead of players so not really a problem. Never bought account etc .. so i don't mind about removing it.

 

I have no problem of removing RMT from the game ... but my problem is the reason to remove it. There are multiple reasons but the main one seems  to be the compatibility for Steam.

 

Just want to give my opinion about this. Just before my returning here few months ago i was playing a new game, sandbox one (not full of content as wurm is but a very good one) was following and playing it from early stages, had many accounts, backed it and supported it a lot ... as a really fanboy.

 

Why ? Because from all sandbox MMO i played (and i tested many) this one was really original, hardcore, full loot PvP i was looking for etc ... it was a very good niche game i could have spent many years more.

 

Then (probably for economic reasons i can understand) they decided to release it on Steam. And it was the beginning of the end ...

 

To be more "Steam compatible" they changed things on the game, removed many originalities, making the game more ... "aseptic". They changed core mecanisms i was a fanboy of so just before Steam release i quitted (and i came back here :) ) and all the existing community left. Devs acted like "no worries thousands players will come with Steam" and they didn't really listened the veteran community there for a long time.

 

They released on Steam, got many players who played it like few weeks and then switched to another MMO. Couple months after the Steam hype they have got same player numbers than before Steam release ... but without the fanboy community and then numbers continued to drop down ... and now they are trying to put back things they changed before Steam to re-attract players they lost... and probably this game will disappear soon.

 

All that story to say that Wurm is a complex, hardcore but original game ... and this is why we like it. Changing things to make it more Steam compatible won't bring more players. Steam is not a miracle where you just have to put a niche game with few hundreds player and then \o/ POP \o/ million players everywhere !!!!

 

I don't say RMT was a core game mecanism, it brought maybe more problems than the originality it gives when you say to a friend "Hey ! In this game it's diffrent you can earn real money !!" but with player gods removing and other things which changed i just hope Devs are not thinking to turn Wurm into an aseptic MMO just to have thousands players on Steam and money income ... it's hopeless and you risk to loose all: originality and core community to have a Steam hype and then nothing more after....

 

PS: Sorry for my bad english and for the wall of text :)

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3 hours ago, Emoo said:

For anyone who has a spare 4hrs (lol) we covered off all of the new updates on our Wurm Wednesday stream on Twitch.
The good and bad aspects, the impacts and what needs to be done from here and what needs to be tweaked. 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Feedback and thoughts are welcome, cheers!

Good example why TL;DR video/summed up news.. is a must.... 4 hours are too much time to spare for random news 😴

"Podcasts" aren't for everybody😬

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http://prntscr.com/qy0czr

 

This is what the great changes coming to WO are already bringing to the game. And the changes are not even on yet. Trade channel is full of ads like that. I realize they are jokes (most of them anyway) but they should at least be moderated.

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24 minutes ago, Darkstorm said:

http://prntscr.com/qy0czr

 

This is what the great changes coming to WO are already bringing to the game. And the changes are not even on yet. Trade channel is full of ads like that. I realize they are jokes (most of them anyway) but they should at least be moderated.

If you ever feel moderation is required in public chat, the best way is to get the attention of a community assistant in the CA help channel. They can then escalate the issue so it can be dealt with.

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3 hours ago, shakys said:

If you ever feel moderation is required in public chat, the best way is to get the attention of a community assistant in the CA help channel. They can then escalate the issue so it can be dealt with.

We need more CAs to be honest. There is almost never one on when I play, and I play for 5-6 hours a night or more. We should be able to get more.

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Steam won't produce any more players, the game is 90% garbage.

One of the most redeeming attributes it had was everything you put in you could get something back later if need be. Things you bought for outrageous prices, like a scale set, 200 euro? Lol. Was ok because , well it still has a value in real money.. You could grind thinking hell at least I could sell the toon for something one day if i got bored so not a total utter waste of time spending 6 years of my life to get 100 in something usless. 

This is going to happen and its not a discussion I know , I'm not forseeing a  great success though.

Rmt being a stong point for the game , many more items and a regulated auction house would have been a better idea, with cc taking a cut from player sales. 

A shop selling useless wank, rolfs gnomes sold out in a few hours, imagine what a whole shop full of decorations, clothes, skins , banners, whatever would have made.

Its a shame, i have had much love for wurm over the years, never made a penny out of it, until now while selling up before the deadline. I really hope these ideas work for you, can't see it personally though.

 

Edited by LordLouis
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