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Retrograde

The Future of RMT in Wurm and Price Reductions

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RMT has been hurting Wurm for years ...People trapping Dragons for years to make a killing selling their deed. People making small trader 1 X 1 house deeds all over to generate cash. People harassing other traders in chats. Hundreds of Zombie accounts that never die and get resold, which confuse's other people's Deed permission's.

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7 hours ago, Finnn said:

I NEED a content WIN.. to win me again to play the game.. but lately the only thing that keeps me around are the people I know from wurm, rather than the content or changes happening or about to.

 

This hits a big nerve with me for some reason.

 

Content. I know people keep saying Wurm is a sandbox game and thus players provide the content but.. After a while you kinda see there is very little content to do after the first few months. Rifts get stale. Pvp is ... I am not going to touch that subject there's 1000 forum threads explaining why it's dead. If you build a big deed you get burned out. Grinding smth like 90 WS also burns you out.

 

And it's not about end game content. It's just having something that can re-bind us as a community . Freedom psychologically enforces a lot of isolationism. If pvp servers have 1 alliance per server or kingdom usually, every freedom server has 30 alliances made up of 2-3 deeds. Perhaps we've strayed apart as a community over the years. And players adding content to the game such as Impalongs , well. That is quite straining on people. I know Shrimpiie hosted quite a few beautiful impalongs but he's just one guy (and those that helped him of course, it's not a 1 man show :D )

 

Perhaps something big and extreme so that people can really achieve together to make Wurm fun again.

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Dunno. Wurm I think has yet to reach its full potential.  Many things just feel...half - done.

Edited by elentari
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1 hour ago, elentari said:

 

This hits a big nerve with me for some reason.

 

Content. I know people keep saying Wurm is a sandbox game and thus players provide the content but.. After a while you kinda see there is very little content to do after the first few months. Rifts get stale. Pvp is ... I am not going to touch that subject there's 1000 forum threads explaining why it's dead. If you build a big deed you get burned out. Grinding smth like 90 WS also burns you out.

 

And it's not about end game content. It's just having something that can re-bind us as a community . Freedom psychologically enforces a lot of isolationism. If pvp servers have 1 alliance per server or kingdom usually, every freedom server has 30 alliances made up of 2-3 deeds. Perhaps we've strayed apart as a community over the years. And players adding content to the game such as Impalongs , well. That is quite straining on people. I know Shrimpiie hosted quite a few beautiful impalongs but he's just one guy (and those that helped him of course, it's not a 1 man show :D )

 

Perhaps something big and extreme so that people can really achieve together to make Wurm fun again.

I feel opposite to this. I mean, I still think that theres as much content as single person wants to. It's still depending on every single one of us, on our imagination, personalities.

 

Thing is, that in my case I lost my main content in last year after all the changes. Not everything, but has left for me is pretty much what you mentioned. Building and grinding. Both these things never were up to my interests.

 

But I was always creating my own lore, using imagination to fit my Wurm story to my interests. I never wanted to follow things that are common, things that everyone can get, like said grinding and skills.

 

I was interested in collecting rare items, hunting real unique stuff like challenge rewards when there were only few of them. Or unique items made by gms or other relicts. This is the first thing they broke for me. Allowing firstly, creating masks on regular servers, then adding even challenge helmets and statuettes into gift boxes. Now it become worthless again.

 

Or when I noticed that I can in fact become a first Xanadu winner in old Personal Goal system. So I set it up as my purpose, that I was following and finally i did manage to achieve it.

 

Few weeks later personal goals were changed in a way that every alt and his dog could easily achieve once again- just the same reward. And of course, 2 or 3 goals needed changing because were bugged and impossible to do. But only these 2 -3 not all.

 

They also did change uniques hunting. Many people were putting lots of time and efforts into hunting uniques. But no, devs did change it for the sake of people that are too lazy to go out of deed or pick up the glove and try to compete.

 

Player gods, removed. Only because devs can't balance 10 npcs. 10 npcs described by, how many factors? 3-4 characterisrics? And spell lists made of 20 spells? Really? I can inagine, that I'd be pissed too if I'd actually try to reach this goal also.

 

And I could list even further but its pointless.

 

The only great thing, that Wurm has made in last years was Seris Trauser Hunt. This was one of the best events I have seen in games. And I was literally obsessed with it. I had a purpose in a way that i exactly need to. And it doesnt matter that I didn managed to accomplish hunt on time, Xallo was first. He was better, so he deserved this armor. I ended up with nothing, but it doesnt matter, because for few months I had a purpose and goal to achieve, to keep me here. 

 

If Id only hear, that there will be more events like this, I'd stay certainly for another 10 years. But if we have to play in a way, where everyone has everything and everything is supposed for everyone regardless of little efforts... its not my world.

 

Of course many people enjoy building, crafting grinding and sitting in deed. And they have their content. But if they dont want to go for treasure hunt, unique hunt or sonetging else, why should they get it in other way? Just like me, who wont have a nice building if i wont manage to force myself to actually build it.

 

Byt content is in game. Even for people who lived for RMT. I bet many of them, instead of RM will now adjust to hoard gold coins. Question is, if everyone will be happy with content that is still in game? Certainly not. By making happy some people, were upseting others and so it goes on.

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Pretty sure everyone believe's that Priest's in their current form is broken, as they need more utility abilities to be worth the cost in not being a crafter . Player God's was one huge mistake by Rolf mainly to address the above by random rng; 

 

In-general PVE and Unique's do need some attention as few people are attracted to that aspect of the game

 

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On 2/5/2020 at 3:18 PM, Nordlys said:

This is not personal to anyone, but i truly believe that if 1, 2, 10 or 50 players quit the game for this, thats ok. I believe that Steam will bring several hundreds (maybe thousands) of new players into the game. Heck, WU have sold between 200.000 and 500.000 copies!

 

Yes and those thousands when they hear that CC has abandoned the existing single-purchase version to instead push their subscription + p2w cash shop "online" version instead they will be ecstatic to just rush right over to play it 🤣

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23 minutes ago, bdew said:

 

Yes and those thousands when they hear that CC has abandoned the existing single-purchase version to instead push their subscription + p2w cash shop "online" version instead they will be ecstatic to just rush right over to play it 🤣

I'm really not sure why you say its p2w.

 

P2W is ability to buy accounts, for instance, or high end gear for cash.

 

Subscription isnt P2W.

 

You can technically surround your area which you want deeded with a wall and never deed it on PVE.

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1 minute ago, nekoexmachina said:

Subscription isnt P2W.

 

Buying silver is.

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The only p2w aspect in the game is buying stuff for PvP. That is quite the only context where you can win vs. another player or group a people.

 

Outside of pvp, silvers are just "pay for convenience". Don't want to grind Wep smithing? Buy a 90 ql longsword with enchants.

Don't want to breed horses? Buy them.

Don't want to dig for clay? Pay someone to dig for you.

Etc.

 

But on freedom there is no proverbial "win". If you'd delete all pvp servers right now, p2w wouldn't even be an argument. You don't even need to deed really to keep stuff safe on freedom servers.

And the market on freedom for "pay for convenience" is player governed in the end. And if you're an enterprising individual you don't even need to pay in silvers. You can simply message a priest and ask him something like "Hey, can I do a few chores for you in exchange for some casts? Maybe repair some walls, dig some dirt, chop some veggies, etc. ?" 

 

Years ago on Epic I used to make platesets for people and I gave em a choice by either paying a couple of silvers or do some chores for me if they couldn't afford it. Ex: help mine some materials such as tin. The beauty of the wurm market is offering people options on how to acquire stuff. Without RMT you still have options.

 

Pay2win games exclusively bar you from getting good items/skills/stats if you don't shell out hundreds of $. They create an artificial ceiling of progress that can only be overcome with RL money.

 

A pay to win example that doesn't exist in wurm (and i hope it never does) would be limiting players to acquire a drake set armor only through the cash shop. You can't buy it from other people, you can't craft it, can only imp or repair. But that doesn't exist in wurm and it's an amazing thing these days for an MMO.

 

Wurm? Other than your subscription, you don't really have to pay for anything in game. Your skills aren't limited to 2 professions like wow. You don't need to deed. You don't really need dragon scale armor. You don't really need supreme horse gear or tomes to kill a bear.

 

CCAR doesn't throw an ad in your face every sounding like " Buy the seasonal promo pack for only 59.99$ to get the exclusive one time offer on Fantastic Serryl Underwear" or "Buy 100 silvers now for only xyz $ and be eligible ( % chance) to win a random gift satchel (loot boox ) with every purchase!" . Most crappy chinese knock off mmos do that.

Wurm at least gives players more freedom than probably any other MMO out there.

 

Edited by elentari
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1 hour ago, elentari said:

The only p2w aspect in the game is buying stuff for PvP. That is quite the only context where you can win vs. another player or group a people.

 

Outside of pvp, silvers are just "pay for convenience". Don't want to grind Wep smithing? Buy a 90 ql longsword with enchants.

Don't want to breed horses? Buy them.

Don't want to dig for clay? Pay someone to dig for you.

Etc.

 

But on freedom there is no proverbial "win". If you'd delete all pvp servers right now, p2w wouldn't even be an argument. You don't even need to deed really to keep stuff safe on freedom servers.

And the market on freedom for "pay for convenience" is player governed in the end. And if you're an enterprising individual you don't even need to pay in silvers. You can simply message a priest and ask him something like "Hey, can I do a few chores for you in exchange for some casts? Maybe repair some walls, dig some dirt, chop some veggies, etc. ?" 

I'd have to disagree,

 

Just one example of p2w on pve servers below with the RMT:

 

Player A & B both want to start a trading business in game. Player A is hard at work grinding and skilling up. Player B bought a high level toon with a few alts.  Player A can set his price at 1s per 1k and have 10k made in 1 week. Player B can set price to 50c per 1k and have 10 done in 1 day. Player C comes a long and want to start building as soon as possible a new wing on his build. Whom do you think player C buy's good from Player B, because he/she wanted to get started right away and it was cheaper as a bonus.

 

Another example,

Player A has one chr, and player B has 6 chrs. Same scenario as above with out the high level toon. (With out RMT, but with just straight buying toons with RM from  CC)

 

It's all in how you interpret p2w these day's in video gaming. It's better if you put p2w on a 1-10 slider. Ask the question how p2w is X game. But to out right say there is no p2w in an game these days is laughable. 

 

 

In closing, Player A lost his/her business, While Player B kept his/her business. So a clear win/lose here proven with RM. 

 

FYI there have been players that have left for this reason in the game. They wanted to start something. Use what they made to pay for their upkeep. But could not so they quit.

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2 hours ago, elentari said:

silvers are just "pay for convenience. Buy a 90 ql longsword with enchants.

 

That's literally pay 2 win.

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13 minutes ago, bdew said:

 

That's literally pay 2 win.

 

define win. You're buying an item which makes you more powerful, but what does that help you win? Sure, in PvP you are entirely right if it wasn't so dead, but in PvE? What win condition is there in PvE?

Edited by Ecrir

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I would argue the definition of your reasoning here.

 

It's not exactly pay to win , more like player that pays RL money (that's an investment that needs a return in game with RMT involved) to dedicate himself to corner the market. But player B in your argument has to invest RL money to buy those accounts first , assuming he hasn't grinded them himself. THat's still money he must make back to break even.

 

But I do get your point tbh on how the market can be affected by such behaviour, although it is an astounding simulation of RL economics. 

 

But what is the "win" definition in this case? Money, in your example. Player B invests RL money to make money in game, to sell via RMT means.


I guess we need an operational definition of "win" in Wurm since it's a very abstract term to use, and it depends from game to game.  Better gear can be earned for non-payers. Again, just like real life, if I want a carpenter to make a bed for me and I don't have money for it, I could theoretically work for him doing menial jobs (sweeping the floor, cutting wood, polishing surfaces, get him lunch, etc.)  until he builds the bed.

 

So thus I chose to use the phrase "pay for convenience" not necesarily win. The question is, is Wurm, as game design actually prohibiting you from acquiring items without paying CCAR 100s of euros or whatever? Some f2p mmos out there reserve the best items in game for paying players. You have zero chance at getting them as a freemium player. 

 

Guess we need to agree that clasifies as "win" in Wurm.

 

Note , terms such as "Win" and "Lose" only function in a competitive environment. But what does "win" mean outside of it? No sarcasm implied, I just want to have a consensus for terms that have been highly controversial in gaming for many years.

 

One of the fundamental aspects of wurm is that you can pretty much get to a point, through hard earned playtime of getting everything you need without using silvers or RL money. You can trade skills. You can help people and be helped in return.

Edited by elentari
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8 minutes ago, bdew said:

 

That's literally pay 2 win.

The strictest definition of pay2win refers to only situation were you MUST make a purchase in the microtransaction shop to achieve the best gear.  This would be like if they started selling bound gear at a rarity level higher than fantastic in the store.  You wouldn't be able to purchase it for silver as it's bound.  You would have to buy from the shop to have optimal gear.  And even if this was allowed it's still a pve sandbox.  What does it matter if someone imps at little faster or digs faster than you.

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2 minutes ago, Toma said:

The strictest definition of pay2win refers to only situation were you MUST make a purchase in the microtransaction shop to achieve the best gear.

 

That's cow poop. Paying money for anything that gives you an advantage is pay2win. This includes a 90ql super enchanted sword, a scale set, a huge deed that you wouldn't be able to afford with the money you make in game, or a stack of sleeping powders to make your skilling go 100% faster than for someone that didn't fork out out the money for it.

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37 minutes ago, bdew said:

That's literally pay 2 win.

in any way wurm became significantly less p2w with account trade gone.

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22 minutes ago, bdew said:

 

That's cow poop. Paying money for anything that gives you an advantage is pay2win. This includes a 90ql super enchanted sword, a scale set, a huge deed that you wouldn't be able to afford with the money you make in game, or a stack of sleeping powders to make your skilling go 100% faster than for someone that didn't fork out out the money for it.

This is a much looser definition of pay to win that pretty much renders every single mmo in the world as p2w.  You can argue it, but it's kind of a fruitless discussion as you're just suggesting that the game makes no money, expecially since cosmetics aren't really a thing.

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I don't get the p2w debate, the only thing that changes is you can not buy silver anymore from players.

Otherwise it's the same game, you could buy silver before and now just the dealer changed for most of the sales and the new dealer even adjusted the price per silver to the old player value soo... nothing changed but that all silver sale revenue is going straight to the game devs which is good imho.

 

So why all of a sudden the "wah wah pay to win" outrage?

Imho it's just disgruntled people pi***** on the game for no real reason, could have made a own thread about it years ago if it upsets them so much.

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53 minutes ago, Milkdrop said:

I don't get the p2w debate, the only thing that changes is you can not buy silver anymore from players.

Otherwise it's the same game, you could buy silver before and now just the dealer changed for most of the sales and the new dealer even adjusted the price per silver to the old player value soo... nothing changed but that all silver sale revenue is going straight to the game devs which is good imho.

 

So why all of a sudden the "wah wah pay to win" outrage?

Imho it's just disgruntled people pi***** on the game for no real reason, could have made a own thread about it years ago if it upsets them so much.

Not just silver.  There's no RMT at all. no items or toons, land, ext...

 

Personally I'm all for the removal of RMT, either way p2w is in the game in one form or an other, there is no debating this. And i too dont get why they try to debate it. But either way. if you going to put forth money for something. I would rather put forth money to the company, rather then the player. Seeing the company is developing the game not the player.

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1 hour ago, bdew said:

 

That's cow poop. Paying money for anything that gives you an advantage is pay2win. This includes a 90ql super enchanted sword, a scale set, a huge deed that you wouldn't be able to afford with the money you make in game, or a stack of sleeping powders to make your skilling go 100% faster than for someone that didn't fork out out the money for it.

Then what about those WU servers where you buy items for real money? Sklotopolis, etc...

At least in WO you buy silver which has a wide variety of uses and you can also earn it ingame without paying real money

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1 hour ago, Toma said:

This is a much looser definition of pay to win that pretty much renders every single mmo in the world as p2w.  You can argue it, but it's kind of a fruitless discussion as you're just suggesting that the game makes no money, expecially since cosmetics aren't really a thing.

Not sure if you were around a long long time ago, when gamer's could buy a game out right and play with no p2w mechanics, But then along cam a horse :P Lets see who remember this day ;) 

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i think the thing some people forget is that everything in wurm so far had value, between my lands, traders and (old) account values, i was probably around 4k € worth... this was one of wurm differences amongst all the others games on the market... now that value is magically going to 0€... and that despite the original reassurances that nothing would change, no further nerfs would come to the traders, yadda yadda...

 

If you think investing time and money in a game where it kept it's real value and suddenly loose all of it is fun... just make a stash of equivalent money and burn it away and see if you get the same feeling.

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6 minutes ago, Odynn said:

i think the thing some people forget is that everything in wurm so far had value, between my lands, traders and (old) account values, i was probably around 4k € worth... this was one of wurm differences amongst all the others games on the market... now that value is magically going to 0€... and that despite the original reassurances that nothing would change, no further nerfs would come to the traders, yadda yadda...

 

If you think investing time and money in a game where it kept it's real value and suddenly loose all of it is fun... just make a stash of equivalent money and burn it away and see if you get the same feeling.

 

Honestly, I feel somewhat sorry for those people but then again they have only themself to blame for "investing" into a game to begin with and then believing this would never change.

The community has been moaning about a steady decline of pupulace since how long? Ahh... years I guess, we are far from the numbers we had when Wurm hit "release" status.

 

That people invest into a obviously declining system and think that what they put into it will retain it's value is almost like gambling the stock market, just the stock market is sometimes less transparent or not as easy to understand as the situation we have here.

How many times have longstanding things (Fountainpans to name one) be changed, "values" been destroyed, in the name of the greater good for the game.

Sorry, to think they would not someday remove RMT is a bit naive. /hug

 

They have to do something to keep things going and they are trying to do their best I think (hope).

Without Steam and those changes Wurm may have been gone in a few years time more, maybe it will be gone either way... we don't know but such is life.

 

I threw a lot of money at the game as well, easily around 2k EUR over the years, but every cent I put into the game was to support the game / be able to play and this was done with my "toy around" money, a monthly stash of money I hold (or piles up if there is nothing to throw it at) just for entertainment - I put it into whatever brings me joy and with that I have to accept once it is spent it is gone forever.

 

If you want something that retains value, I guess buy gold bars?

I don't know, I am not a financial advisor of sorts - but "investing" money you hold dear and eventually want "back" by whatever means... anything is better than a game for that. :(

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4 minutes ago, Toma said:

Video games are not investments 

Curse you for cutting in line while I was busy writing up my wall of text! ;)

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