Arimus

Life Transfer - bring back challenge to PVE Combat

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I know that many current players may disagree, but with the steam release coming, it may make sense to re-evaluate the impact of Life Transfer on normal day to day pve. For the cost of an 80+ LT enchant, I can basically eliminate the challenge involved in any non-rift/non-unique pve single combat. I don't need high weapon skills, high ql weapons, or high armor (50 or 60ql works just fine). All I need is one good LT cast. The end result is that without the challenge, combat is much less exciting than it could be. One enchant should not have that much effect on combat. So many other skills have been structured such that you earn your way to higher skill levels and there are commensurate benefits. This is one of the large appeals to the game. However, LT bypasses this for basic PVE combat.

 

I'd bet that if some metrics were run comparing the enchants on player equipped weapons, we'd see that LT far surpasses any other major weapon enchant (as compared to BT, VN, RT, FB, FA, ED). For most players it just doesn't make sense to use anything else.

 

My opinion is that the game would be better off long term for daily PVE combat to be challenging at least until a player's fight and weapon skills reach high levels (where they could choose to focus mainly on rifts, scout camps, and uniques). With a lower impact of LT there could be a number of benefits: armor would play more of a role, shields might become more important, and other enchants would be more likely to be used.

 

Maybe it could still provide significant bonuses for rift mobs and uniques such that it works as is today, but work more like Essence Drain for normal mobs. 

 

This is definitely not a new idea. One older thread suggested having the healing be based on the wielder's healing skill: LT revamp The creator of this thread felt the same way in that LT has made combat way too easy for early levels.

 

Potential ways to address this issue that have come out of the discussion during this thread include:

- reducing the weight of cotton so that more of it can be carried to heal between fights (or maybe supporting the ability to create low weight bandages that give additional healing benefit when not in combat). 

- an increase in the effectiveness of first aid or speed of leveling so that the downtime between fights is reduced to a reasonable level (in the absence of LT or a scaled back version)

 

 

Edited by Arimus

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Nope.

-1

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No, If you don't like the way LT works, don't use it.

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I'd respectfully ask you not to pollute this thread with unhelpful responses. 

 

Retro's guide to suggestions/responses: Retro's guide to suggesting good and doing other stuff real good too.

Quote

First rule of commenting, this isn't a voting system. +1 does nothing, we do not tally up votes of pluses or minuses to weigh out ideas, it means nothing to us and distracts from the discussion. 

 

What we do look for is meaningful contribution, if you want to say you like an idea, like the main post, if you have thoughts, feelings, concerns, voices telling you things about it feel free to post those. A paragraph about why someone feels something may not be good for the game beats a million +1's because none of those explain why someone feels it would be good for the game or their play. 

 

The comments section should be for discussion about something, pros and cons, if you feel something won't be good for your play say so! We see a few "+1 but only if I can turn it off" which means "I don't actually want to use this and thus I have no reason to support it" if you say "this isn't something I would use because x" means we get a better idea of why people might not want to use it. 

 

Edited by Arimus
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The response wasn't unhelpful.  It was just simple disagreement with your request/suggestion.  I mirror KillerSpike's sentiments.  If PvE players wanted more challenge, they would choose not to use LT.  In fact, they could choose to only use Q50  weapons.  They could choose to use only cloth armor, etc.  We make a choice to gear up to the level we feel comfortable with.  Some make huge investments in getting the best of the best gear, to make PvE insignificant, specifically because they want to focus on building and teraforming projects, not worry about what is going to kill them next.

 

So no.  Leave LT right where it is.  I'd even rather have it easierr to cast, now that we are losing our Nahjo priests.

 

-1 and all that.

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I feel those responses are unhelpful. A helpful response in this forum has a reason attached to it. It doesn't include snide comments or condescension. It doesn't include ridiculous suggestions such as: "putting yourself at a disadvantage to make it more challenging." "Or if you don't like it you don't have to play." 

 

Let's discuss the suggestion rationally without the negative emotion.

 

You present a valid argument in that there are player costs associated with changing the balance of any of the enchants. Time and silver have gone into gearing up.  Any significant changes will impact that. So, while I was mainly thinking about the game design for the new Steam servers, the devs likely will not want to have multiple code branches so any change would probably affect both servers. (although if they could swing it, a separate branch with modified logic for the steam servers is probably not a bad idea)

 

You also mentioned that having the high level gear with the enchants allows you to essentially bypass combat so that you can work on building and terraforming. That is something that I hadn't even considered. That is a very helpful response.

 

I'd be interested in hearing any other reasons why it should or should not be changed (in addition to the already stated cost to players for those already having the enchant).

Edited by Arimus
adjustment

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imagine still using lt in current year

 

this post made by venom gang

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I can understand why a 'fighter' would enjoy the challenge of more difficult combat and of course would respect their wishes.

 

I am not a so-called fighter although I have built my fighting skills to well over 70 on my characters. For me, the LT gives me the ability to go out harvesting, pruning, mining and exploring with a little added security knowing that when attacked I have the ability to get rid of the threat or at least to stay alive whilst retreating.

 

So basically, whilst totally understanding the viewpoint of the thread owner, for me the security of an LT weapon / armour is something I enjoy.

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What exactly is the benefit of making everybody miserable and spending hours with a cotton ball sponging?

(getting 30-40 wounds with tiny amounts is already annoying enough to heal them... and LT only heals 1 at a time... + the nerf for cooldowns..)

Am I somehow missing kind of entertainment around that mechanic..  I don't get it...🙄

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1 hour ago, Arimus said:

I'd respectfully ask you not to pollute this thread with unhelpful responses. 

 

Retro's guide to suggestions/responses: Retro's guide to suggesting good and doing other stuff real good too.

 

 

Life Transfer makes fighting multiple mobs possible with less downtime between. More time fighting, less time right clicking on wounds and stuffing them full of cotton.

 

There is already healing resistance to keep it from super-stacking and making you invulnerable. While I see you don't like being told not to use it if you don't like it, I would also say don't try and take it away from everybody because you don't like it.

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I would suggest nogumps etc to freedom, or just stronger creatures otherwise.

 

LT is a bit cheat mode, but i rather have that than 20kg cotton with me that i have to apply every now and then. 

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17 minutes ago, Beanbag said:

 

Life Transfer makes fighting multiple mobs possible with less downtime between. More time fighting, less time right clicking on wounds and stuffing them full of cotton.

 

There is already healing resistance to keep it from super-stacking and making you invulnerable. While I see you don't like being told not to use it if you don't like it, I would also say don't try and take it away from everybody because you don't like it.

Correction.. you can NOT fight multiple mobs.. maybe with spells.. but not with any weapon.. afaik.. unless around priest mechanics somebody thought a bit of fun around metal could be added?

Don't think so.. old fighting is pretty sad to look at.. or the non-priest abilities...

 

LT is the only thing that lets you fight stuff.. without going in the safe corner and sponging yourself with cotton more than you spend to actually fight something...

Game have no other way to heal... cotton/healing cover(nobody uses the 2nd.. btw); there's no 2nd level of better fighting... only 2 enchants... lt/ed.. 

- no alchemy..

- no food.. giving you any benefit for healing, instant or over time... sad to look at... when it comes to fighting.... as else we get back in the sad sad little corner with the cotton ball.. again....

@Arimus

That is probably the reason many do not like your idea... not to mention... poison by bee hives or foggers(fog spiders) are a thing.... and rift mobs.. do their internal etc.. special wounds.. that only LT or lof/heal take care of....

and you suggest to just get rid of it.. because.. you do not feel it's 'entertaining' having something that literally is the only border from spending a lot of time staring at the screen and a loading bar of healing with cotton... 

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2 hours ago, Arimus said:

I'd respectfully ask you not to pollute this thread with unhelpful responses. 

 

But it is only pollution in your mind because he doesn't agree with you, right?

 

LT is quite necessary for new players to take on crocodiles, trolls, etc at low fight skill.  There isn't an endless field of wolves and wild cats for new players to kill to gain fight skill from, so there is going to be a mix of harder creatures to kill, making LT a vital part of success.  

 

You also fail to account for healing resistance, which DOES play a role in long engagements with multiple monsters.  If you're continually fighting and hitting stuff, you're continuously stacking that "buff", and it is going to reduce the amount of healing you get from LT for a longer and longer period of time.  

 

@FinnI think he meant slaying them one at a time with a weapon while "multiple" mobs are beating on you.

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I think this is a great discussion. A couple really good points have been made:

- LT provides security when engaging in activities when away from guard towers, deeds etc

- LT reduces downtime by not having to heal and wait in between fights

- LT reduces the need to carry so much heavy cotton.

 

I'd counter that almost all combat can be avoided while on a mount or cart. With decent horseshoes (not necessarily enchanted) and a 5 spd horse you can pretty much outrun anything. But with LT you don't have to avoid combat, you can just kill whatever is in your way with little risk. It's one thing if you've earned the weapon and fight skill to accomplish that, but another to be able to do it with just purchasing an enchant. I don't think the game is designed for completely risk free exploration without first earning skills to do so. So this argument kind of confirms the point that LT bypasses the need for earning combat skills. 

 

The next two arguments are really good ones. LT does a great job of reducing downtime between fights. Even if you first aid and treat wounds there is still a wait between mobs to heal to full. Perhaps a buff to first aid and a significant reduction in cotton weight would be an alternative. That way the downtime between fights would be lowered but you still have the risk during the actual combat. (I'm going to update the suggestion at the beginning of the thread to reflect this.)

 

@Finn, I did mention specifically that LT is needed for rift and unique mobs. As for poison there is farmer's salve that is designed for that purpose. And I'm not suggesting it be removed entirely, just scaled back.

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8 minutes ago, Finnn said:

Correction.. you can NOT fight multiple mobs.. maybe with spells.. but not with any weapon.. afaik.. unless around priest mechanics somebody thought a bit of fun around metal could be added?

Don't think so.. old fighting is pretty sad to look at.. or the non-priest abilities...

 

LT is the only thing that lets you fight stuff.. without going in the safe corner and sponging yourself with cotton more than you spend to actually fight something...

Game have no other way to heal... cotton/healing cover(nobody uses the 2nd.. btw); there's no 2nd level of better fighting... only 2 enchants... lt/ed.. 

- no alchemy..

- no food.. giving you any benefit for healing, instant or over time... sad to look at... when it comes to fighting.... as else we get back in the sad sad little corner with the cotton ball.. again....

@Arimus

That is probably the reason many do not like your idea... not to mention... poison by bee hives or foggers(fog spiders) are a thing.... and rift mobs.. do their internal etc.. special wounds.. that only LT or lof/heal take care of....

and you suggest to just get rid of it.. because.. you do not feel it's 'entertaining' having something that literally is the only border from spending a lot of time staring at the screen and a loading bar of healing with cotton... 

 

You can tank and be attacked by multiple mobs at once, while you can only strike back at one.

 

You truly bring whole new meaning to pedantic, and that is in no way a compliment.

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While I do agree there is very little non-optional "vE" to Mid/Late game Wurm, I don't think LT is the cause of that.


Early game, LT really does help people out.

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Don't forget that high power enchants became the norm, this was not always true more players coming with steam might renew the market (or not for all I know), lower power LT was and still is useful, I also believe it's healing power was nerfed at some point in the past months.

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11 minutes ago, Wargasm said:

 

But it is only pollution in your mind because he doesn't agree with you, right?

 

LT is quite necessary for new players to take on crocodiles, trolls, etc at low fight skill.  There isn't an endless field of wolves and wild cats for new players to kill to gain fight skill from, so there is going to be a mix of harder creatures to kill, making LT a vital part of success.  

 

You also fail to account for healing resistance, which DOES play a role in long engagements with multiple monsters.  If you're continually fighting and hitting stuff, you're continuously stacking that "buff", and it is going to reduce the amount of healing you get from LT for a longer and longer period of time.  

 

I think that is an unfair accusation Wargasm. I specifically quoted Retro's guidelines for responding to suggestions. Saying that you like or dislike a suggestion without backing it up is unhelpful at best. 

 

I'm going to argue that new players should never be able to take on trolls or crocodiles solo at low fight skill without the help of guards or another player. That is the exact point of the issue. 

 

With regard to healing resistance I can see that building up over a long period of time, but it doesn't really hamper you unless you are killing a lot of creatures at once. I really like the alternative of buffing first aid and maybe having special bandages that provide post fighting heals without healing resistance.

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I have 80 fight skill now and without LT I cant think of the hundreds of times i would have died, LT is handy, I can fight several spiders when harvesting and live. For new players I am sure it is invaluable, especially remembering how many times hell hounds killed me as a new player. I am not understanding why you are having an issue with LT. Have you tried Rifts, Jackal for more challenge? Try fighting a champ troll without LT and tell me how long you last. I screamed and ran to a guard tower haha.

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I have enjoyed reading all the responses, comments and suggestions for and against.

 

I would suggest that both camps have given perfectly valid reasons for their stance. This being so, does this not indicate that Wurm has got it mainly right and the use of LT (or not) should perhaps be left up to the individual. For example, I think player experience  is better progressing from cats through lions, bears and hounds up to crocs and trolls but if a player wants to spend a lot and equip themselves with top-of-the-range equipment and hit hard from the start then that is their choice.

 

In my opinion Wurm is a great game that gives a player the opportunity of making important choices every single day and the use of LT (or not) is simply a choice best left to the individual(s) concerned.

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Whilst I appreciate the need for some hazards in a survival game, for me monster fighting is just not the priority.  For me the challenge and reward is found largely in the things I want to build and achieve, and whilst I do understand that many get their kicks from killing - it's not for me.

 

I like to have LT just so I know there's a good chance I can make it from A to B.  My laptop disconnects a lot, usually at the most inappropriate moments, leaving me in game.  OK that's my fault maybe, but for the time being I live with it.  I would rather re-enter the game 5 minutes later to a pile of defeated mobs than a red screen, honestly.

 

This is why LT provides such a lifeline for those who wouldn't normally choose to stay around and fight, but find they have no choice.

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1 hour ago, Spolmit said:

The use of LT (or not) should perhaps be left up to the individual.

 

As with all the sweeping changes type threads: If you don't like it, don't use it. 

 

If you don't like "plot a course", sail the old way.  If you don't like mailboxes, go hand deliver stuff.  If you don't like the amount of protection some armor brings, don't wear it.  If you don't like horses outrunning spiders, walk.  If you don't like food not decaying, don't use a larder.  Of course we can add stacks more stuff here:  Sleep bonus.  Chopped veggies for favour.  Runes.  Imbues.  Higher quality of tools and stuff shortening timers.  Higher levels of people having more actions to queue.  Nesting containers to pack all your veggies.  Using lock ql to support what you put into bsbs.  Crates.  Crateracks. Animal transport crates. CoC. WOA.  Virtually any QoL or variation in play-style or lifestyle accommodation in the game could be up for someone somewhere thinking it is OP.

 

TL: DR - If you don't like being healed while you fight, don't use LT.  However, if others do like using it, leave them be.
 

Edited by Fairyshine
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2 hours ago, Wargasm said:

 

@FinnI think he meant slaying them one at a time with a weapon while "multiple" mobs are beating on you.

Got that, but since we never talk about the other mentioned... thought it's a good opportunity.. and grabbed it..

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The point of a suggestion is to offer up a recommendation or an improvement (as seen in the eyes of the suggester).  Then, ideally there is discussion as to the merit of the idea looking at the pros and cons. We aren't making any decisions. We are just offering up feedback for the Wurm team to hopefully take into consideration. Ultimately, they are going to review the feature/change in light of their vision and then balance it with how they believe it will be received both by the current players as well as the future players. (Not to mention evaluating the technical difficulty, downstream effects, testing, documentation, and scheduling).   

 

As for feedback and discussion, Muse's response is helpful and useful. A developer/product manager would read it and take it into consideration.

 

Fairyshine, your response is not very helpful. It doesn't add anything to the discussion. Introducing other items that are not under discussion is just a red herring argument. If you like Life Transfer as it is today, then please add to the discussion by offering your reasons why. Perhaps you feel that Life Transfer is fine as is and doesn't require any changes. That is certainly fine. It's your opinion and you should feel free to voice it. But a response of 'Don't use it if you don't like it' actually discourages suggestions. That could be applied to almost every suggestion. If you don't like suggestions then I'm not sure why you are in the suggestions forum.

 

I agree that people should play Wurm as they see fit within the allowed confines. For example, I don't kill non-aggressive animals. I only kill hostile mobs. It put me at a little disadvantage at the beginning, but I am ok with that as a personal choice. I wouldn't ever suggest that no one be able to kill non-aggressive mobs (the leather making industry would crumble).

 

However, my stance is that it takes away from the game for a newish player to get a Life Transfer weapon and be able to fight trolls without risk. It takes away from the achievement of working to get high fight and weapon skills. Instead, the player should have to run away and fight that troll at a later time when they have higher combat skills or run it to a guard. Then when they finally get that solo troll kill, it will be an achievement and they will feel good about their skills because they earned them.

 

Imagine if a priest could cast a spell on imping tools that allowed a newish player to imp a weapon to level 70 bypassing the requisite weapon smithing skills. The players would of course use it. They'd be crazy not to. That's why the game doesn't have that item and is why Life Transfer as it works today is currently too powerful. (Again this is my opinion.) 

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