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Batta

Mods vs. Coding advice

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I notice that often when someone asks for a mod, others give them coding advice instead -- how to tweak the code, or what to change in the databases.

"You don't need a mod; just do this!"

 

Please note that many times we're asking for a mod precisely because we aren't coders and don't know how to safely alter the databases in the ways suggested.

Sometimes we don't even understand what you're saying at all.

 

It would be awesome if you would consider offering an actual mod that we can put into our mods folder and configure, rather than offering coding advice.

Thanks for helping out the non-coders amongst us!  

 

.

Edited by Batta
(just fixing spelling)

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1 hour ago, Batta said:

I notice that often when someone asks for a mod, others give them coding advice instead -- how to tweak the code, or what to change in the databases.

"You don't need a mod; just do this!"

.

 

Those people are usually right. Why ask for stuff if you can get tools to make stuff yourself? Coding in a way isnt too hard if you can get your head around it thru trial and error, especially when you can get advice to straighten you back on track or get a starting point. After a bit of time you can already know the basics, what to look, what might do what etc and can make your own stuff. Its a skill that would benefit you irl too. Plus, most often people ask for a "specific" mod they have an idea themselves, such mods barely exist as other people who created them might have had slightly different idea. so in a sense you are just asking someone to do the job for you and provide you the mod. Jukken is wright, most mods require "adjusting" anyways..

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4 hours ago, Skatyna said:

Why ask for stuff if you can get tools to make stuff yourself?

I think you missed the rest of my post.  🙂

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I understand where you are coming from, but I think it mainly boils down to the sheer amount of time that is involved to write a mod for a specific function and then applying some general opinion of how much that mod will actually be used. There are some people who mod for one-off situations, and certainly when running your own server you have to take into account what people want that are playing on your server, but typically the requests section doesn't get looked at much because the requests are very niche and would only be used by lan servers or one person servers, or they require something new to be added graphically that doesn't exist in the game. Most coders are not graphic designers from my experience.

 

At any rate, I've only really written one mod of my own and distributed it freely to the public which is the VoteReward mod to give everyone a fair chance at being on the wurm-unlimited.com website. It did not seem right to me to make the mod and then not share it with everyone. However, there are mods that have been requested, in the form of suggestions on my server that I have written mods for, but there's not really a point in sharing them because it really only applies to the people on my server. 

 

Finally, when someone does not know how to code, they need every possible option configurable in the .properties file which can be as simple as one line or up to something like 1200 lines if you look at WyvernMods Configurable. Each of those lines in the .properties files corresponds to a variable in the actual code and then code has to be written to determine what has been written in the .properties file. For the majority of the mods on my server that I have written, I do not include these variables that can be changed in the .properties file, because it is faster and more efficient to just change them in IntelliJ and recompile the .jar file. 

 

When someone gives you the area of code you need to edit, it is under the assumption that you can create a mod, understand how to utilize javassist, and implement the correct hook in the right sequence. Often times, the person looks at the code and says nope, above my head, I'm not a coder. I was one of those people when I first started running my server. But in all fairness these mods are completely free, some have been stolen and reintroduced into Wurm Online who abandoned the WU project, and the time and effort of those who have contributed heavily; Bdew, Cuddles (Coldie), Sindusk, Governor, etc. are not receiving anything for spending a stupid amount of time writing these very robust mods other than:

A. Thanks!
B. It doesn't work for me =/
C. No feedback at all, just people downloading it, using it, and acting as though its their own custom content

 

I'm not saying that any of this applies to you, I am just explaining it from my perception and the reasons why I eventually said okay, I'll start reading up on Java and eventually getting to the point where I could write some mods. I am not in the same tier as those people, but those people helped me get to where I feel at least comfortable writing my own mods. I believe it was Coldie who even made a bit of a tutorial, on twitch that he posted on these forums where you could sort of see exactly what was being done when coding. Unfortunately it looks as though the video is gone for now.

 

 

 

I am also not advocating for paying for mods, I'm just stating that some of the requests that have gone unanswered generally aren't feasible without adding art assets into the game or would only benefit probably 2-10 people out of the remaining ~300-500 people that play the game: https://steamcharts.com/app/366220

Edited by Ayluin
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Thank you very much for this clear and understandable explanation, @Ayluin

I actually had no idea of any of this, so it's good to know.

 

I suppose I need to learn Java, but I'm not confident I'm going to be able to figure it out, lol. Before you said that, I didn't know whether it was Java, Javascript, IDE, sqlite, javassist, or what.  I don't know what these things are and don't know which ones matter to modding, so I didn't know where to even start.  I'll start with Java, since you mention it...though I don't understand any of the advice from the thread you quoted:

Quote

Java is the language, use your preferred IDE,

No idea what that means.

 

Quote

You can make some mods with Javascript and the script runner tool in ago's server mod launcher. One area that seems to be different with WU modding is using bytecode to make edits to Java Virtual Machine (JVM). A lot of mods tend to avoid the bytecode path as it is full of pitfalls. 

None of this has meaning for me, either.

 

Quote

You want to use maven(1) or gradle(2). Probably gradle would be better.

And so on, with words that mean nothing to me, lol.

 

Wouldn't it be great if there was a truly non-coder's instruction on what to go learn, precisely, without any non-standard English language terms used?  🙂   

Maybe if I can learn this, I'll write something for others who are willing to try but don't even understand the words they're hearing from those advising them.

 

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I got a mention, *feels good*

This is my own opinion but I believe a server should have someone who can make even simple mods 'working' on the server.

Making mods does take time and yeah it is something that someone should want to do, more likely to do it for people you interact with regularly on a server you help than make it for total strangers who as Ayluin said, use it and say nothing, use it and want things change, complain about parts that don't do what they want and on very very rare occasions say thank you 😃

 

Making mods isn't for everyone, so i won't agree that anyone can learn to make even a basic mod, just forgetting a little tiny ; at the end of 1 line could get a novice looking for hours as to why it doesn't work. I am at the stage atm where making a mod takes me very little time and effort but I then spend many hours testing it to make sure it doesn't break anything, which happens.

 

4 hours ago, Ayluin said:

Unfortunately it looks as though the video is gone for now.

Yeah I noticed twitch deleted that video, no idea why, took me an hour to make that hmm 10 minute video I think it was, all the planning and go over what i would do and when so it all flowed and made sense. Not sure if I will make another 1 tbh, need a better video capture software that I can set for whole screen and not just 1 process.

 

so long story short, imho, each server should try to get 1 person who can make even simple mods to 'work' for the server.

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3 hours ago, Cuddles said:

so long story short, imho, each server should try to get 1 person who can make even simple mods to 'work' for the server.

I can make existing mods work  🙂

I can also create and add new recipes, so that's some coding contribution, I suppose.

 

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