Ownership documents

[TheTrickster 2,284]

This is something I originally posted in the discussion of my Lost and Found suggestion, but I realized that although related this is a separate suggestion.

 

Title or ownership documents of some sort could be useful.  Instead of having to physically move stuff between people and fiddle with permissions and/or keys, one could trade the "Certificate of Title".  If you trade P2P then the buyer gets the certificate and all permissions are transferred to them along with ownership.  If it is low value stuff, like a dodgy small cart, you could sell the title at a token and the cart would go where all such sales go.

 

For crates etc this could even be a bill of lading of some sort, whereby you "lock" the crate with an updated title, showing what it contains (and maybe even its location).  Once you create a bill of lading, you must have it in inventory to work with the container, add or remove items or move the crate.  You could show a copy (like a chat window copy paste) to demonstrate contents, and simply mail the bill to a buyer COD.  Once you have mailed it, you have no permissions for the container or its contents unless the buyer sends it back.  Once they have it, they can simply collect the container with the bill in their inventory.  No fiddling with permissions, locks, etc.  It would be like sending a key but simpler for the player to manage and more informative all round.  Bills could be "opened" as an action on the container whenever a player decides to trade with it and "closed" as well as an action on the container WITH the bill.  I have not yet done any trading, so I have not experienced the mechanics, but I would figure this would be simpler than the stuff I have read about handling trading of big of bulky items. 

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

They used to have paper writs for deed property. I can't recall now if it was at one time for houses, too, long ago. So many things have changed. They were actually a complete pain, and this  "fiddling with permissions" system they have now instead is a huge improvement.    If you want to trade a cart or a boat or a house, you can now do in through the MANAGE permissions without needed to sort through dozens  of "writ" papers.  You even can do this "COD" if you have one party send a "bill" through the mail  (woodscraps are common for this) then the seller can change ownership in the Permissions management panels.  It's a huge huge improvement over what they used to have. Nobody wants to have their inventory cluttered with "papers" any more. Or keys, or tokens. We did that once, and it sucked. 

 

edit:  I double checked and yeah we used to have them for houses, as well as for deeds. Trust me, they were really no fun. You were always searching through your pack and all containers looking for the right one, and you could never "drop" a backpack or any container that had a writ in it (although you could trade them in the trading window).  No one who has ever played under both systems, would ever want to go back.

 

https://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/Historical:Writ_of_Ownership

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by Brash_Endeavors

[Wargasm 1,927]

Yes, there were writs for houses too.

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

Also while being "undroppable" (but still tradeable) was in itself a royal pain in the arse, that was certainly better than if they were in fact droppable, meaning you could accidentally lose ownership to a full caravel or  a house full of valuables such as dragon armor or enchanted weapons, if you happened to lose or misplace the writ or even just die with it on a lootable/decayable corpse that you could not recover. I've had more than a few of those over the years.

 

I am pretty sure the GM team  would be the very first to oppose an introduction to droppable (ie mailable) writs granting ownership to the possessor. 

 

The current "Permissions System" is one of the greatest achievements ever of the dev team.

 

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by Brash_Endeavors

[TheTrickster 2,284]

Meh.  Just because something wasn't done right doesn't mean the solution is to not do it all.  

 

The in-game tech level is very low, although has a fiddly level of DIY tech building needed for everything.  For example you can't even grow grass from seed without being able to mine ore and refine iron to make an anvil to allow more mined ore to be refined into iron to make nails to make a tool to create thatches.  In real life, all you need is the seed and a stick.  By contrast, permissions management is very much a computer-age model.  Why it is tolerated by people who are happy grind through the almost-fractal primitive tech to do anything else is a bit baffling.

 

You have mentioned items being undroppable but still tradeable, so it is technically feasible to have something similar that works.  These would not exist for everything, but only for items that one has decided to trade/ship.  They could even have expiry dates, and the item simply reverts to its "undocumented" state if the document expires.  

 

Maybe just a bill of sale, then.  Every owned object has its ownership data, so every owner should have accessible data on their possessions that are not held in inventory.  Make them tradeable via trade window or "mailable" but what actually gets traded/mailed is the bill of sale.  The new owner accesses the item with the bill in hand and the bill is gone and ownership transfers.

 

I guess if what is in place now works, then it works and if it ain't broke don't fix it.  I have little experience in the game, so I am just lobbing ideas that occur to me, ignorant of whether they have already been tried and found wanting.

 

 

Edited January 8, 2020 by TheTrickster
'object' not 'document'

[Kyugg 3]

I like this idea. I think though instead of adding something like writs again it should be a one time use item that transfers ownership.

 

It would be immersive in my opinion to be able to use a reed pen with ink (or dye) on a sheet of paper to create a “Proof of Ownership” or something like that.

 
That way merchants could sell permissions that were written on a sheet of paper for something like a cart but once you use it you just become the owner and the “Proof of Ownership” goes away.

Edited January 6, 2020 by Kyugg
Tried to word it better.

[Beretel 60]

The idea of being able to make a document (at your own impetus) to transfer ownership is a nice one.  It's nothing like the old writs of ownership.

 

JS

[TheTrickster 2,284]

bump

[atazs 965]

I preffered the writ system IMO. It was much better for large villages and managing a lot of houses, people simply traded you their writs and that was that. Now you have to individually catch them online, ask them to fiddle around with the permissions etc...

 

+1

[Platyna 521]

There can, as well, function both of the systems - an owner could write an ownership paper, and while it exist, we pass permissions with it (only one allowed at a time), and any owner can then destroy the paper, so the "old" system functions again. 

[TheTrickster 2,284]

For me a major downside of the permission management to facilitate transfers is that the permission system is an information age technological  intrusion into dark-age technology setting.  What I had proposed is in fact less complexity than the current system.

 

Proposed - 

1. right-click a locked/owned item
2. select "create transfer doc" (or something)
3. trade that.

Current -

1. right click a locked/owned item
2. select manage
3. set the new permission/ownership, probably by typing or copy/pasting the buyer's name
4. select something else to trade
5. trade that

Even if you place the creation of the document under manage, it is still simpler because there is no need to specify the buyer at that point and you don't have to trade something else.  It means the actual trade/transfer is ONE transaction, the change of ownership and the exchange of payment happen in the same transaction.  It is both simpler and more secure.

 

It would also allow selling bulk materials, vehicles, even buildings and animals, through merchants.   The potential for whole new areas of economic activity open up.  There are other threads about carriages and drivers for hire.  This proposal here wouldn't provide the driver but could handle hire of vehicles and horses through a merchant - buy the things, use the things, sell them back when done.  An enterprising Wurmian could set up a pair of merchants, one at a port and another inland, and visitors who sail in could hire horses, carts, wagons etc while they are there to make it easier to get around.  Likewise merchants in different ports, hiring out boats for travel.  You pay full price to purchase, so if you never return it who cares, but you can return it for a partial refund, the difference being the hire charge.  

 

 

[TheTrickster 2,284]

On 6/23/2020 at 12:30 AM, Platyna said:

There can, as well, function both of the systems - an owner could write an ownership paper, and while it exist, we pass permissions with it (only one allowed at a time), and any owner can then destroy the paper, so the "old" system functions again. 

 

Yep, that is pretty much how I see this. The paper is created to trade the item, and the recipient would simply use the paper on the item to claim it and destroy the paper, or possibly just trade the paper if they don't intend to keep or use the item.

[Katrat 2,296]

+1 to anything that makes perms less of an inconvenience! 

[TheTrickster 2,284]

bump

[Darnok 201]

What about weight of that document? Since I made deed it bothers me that piece of paper weights as much as some metal tools...

[TheTrickster 2,284]

10 hours ago, Darnok said:

What about weight of that document? Since I made deed it bothers me that piece of paper weights as much as some metal tools...

 

I would expect it to be negligible, something like 0.01kg.  That's what a paper sheet weights, and I don't see why this should be more.

[Darnok 201]

5 hours ago, TheTrickster said:

 

I would expect it to be negligible, something like 0.01kg.  That's what a paper sheet weights, and I don't see why this should be more.

 

0.20kg now?

[TheTrickster 2,284]

Bump.

 

This has come up again.

 

Also, I have done more trading since the OP and can see how cumbersome the current non-system is.

[TheTrickster 2,284]

Talk of trading and travel reminded me of this, so time for a necro-bump.

 

This is something to make trading of vehicles etc simpler and easier.  An enterprising individual could even use it for a hire business.

[Sheffie 1,120]

It seems to me that it would be far safer to trade a pile of silver for a "ship's bill of sale" than the current system, where there is nothing in theory to stop the seller from just sailing away if the money is paid first— or the buyer, if ownership is transferred first.