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Account Sales : Set an end date

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End account sales / email transfers after a certain publicly announced time frame.

 

They are not good for the financial or economic health of wurm. Account sales will need to be forgone in the event of a steam WO merger anyway. 

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As much as I would LOVE to see this.... it aint going to happen.  People will fire sale their accounts in fear of being left holding the bag.

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In a way i like the idea of banning account sales but also see the nice side of being able to sell your toon after investing alot of time into them. The strange thing about account sales to me is knowing that toon then finding out a completely new person owns it and leaves you wondering who and if a new friendship starts or its just plain weird trying to make a new friendship based off a toon name.

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2 minutes ago, ArthurHawkwing said:

also see the nice side of being able to sell your toon after investing alot of time into them.

 

If you want to make money, go get a job... stop playing video games.

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43 minutes ago, nygen said:

End account sales / email transfers after a certain publicly announced time frame.

 

They are not good for the financial or economic health of wurm. Account sales will need to be forgone in the event of a steam WO merger anyway. 

I do not get why this is a problem now... Where were you guys when epic accounts merged into freedom just to hail Mary sell and leave the game for good.. or sell the good bit of friend-account-family some have adopted during the years.. with others leaving the game.. cashing it all asap it was possible?

 

Not really a question.. Only part I wonder is.. with nobody to compete in any way.. why is it a problem now? Even more with the less than 1(half) year timer ticking down until the steam release and merging of the two sides making any sort of selling in wurm for cash bannable.

Spoiler

*why I say 1 or half a year.. I have a foggy memory of reading expectaton for steam around mid of 2020, could be any time as I do not recall an official date, don't put me on fire for that statement in other words.

 

IMO epic crossover made more damage to account's worth than anything ever have.. maybe not wurmageddon but.. that's the only 2 I can think of.

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With no possible expansion of the high end of things given the ql caps and mechanics, attrition or population growth (churn) are the only means of having a functional economy. Account sales prevent attrition and have lead to saturation of goods. Might as well get ahead of the curve and accelerate the bloodletting so the healing can begin. 

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1 hour ago, nygen said:

With no possible expansion of the high end of things given the ql caps and mechanics, attrition or population growth (churn) are the only means of having a functional economy. Account sales prevent attrition and have lead to saturation of goods. Might as well get ahead of the curve and accelerate the bloodletting so the healing can begin. 

Nope, it's the alts brah... what you can not do with 1 char, you can do better with 2 or 4 or ... you get the idea... 

 

It's true that 1 account adopted around being borrowed or sold could harm he economy but everybody here loves alts, and you can not fight that argument, wurmians just LOVE alts, end of story. There are a few layers around making something OP and economy killer, but over the years that have been taken as granted and eventually adopted as good practice. If you think selling accounts is one and only 'evil' you're a bit wrong.

I don't per say protect any of these practices, but to me seemed so amusing that this one somehow stands out for some and it's only 1 thing that people randomly hate lately.. just because few people have said it 2-3-5 times in forums over the past 1-2 months in comments... Besides that.. no other reason seem to point to this decision that only economy killer are the old accounts that never die or rest when owners go away for one or another reason.

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I think I can understand both sides of the same coin.

I have never sold an account and I have no intention to do it ever. That means I'm living on one side of the coin where I have some connection (emotional? reputational? Who cares) to the toons I play on. I have never bought a single toon either but to draw a clear picture I've been  "adopting" a few from friends leaving the game. Still those accounts I feel to just being under my tutelage (is that a valid English word?)

On the other side are who are the more rational folks who look at toons as assets - picture it just like large companies treat employees (nah not a communist here, I'm fine with it, employees sell their time and expertise on the market).

Both attitudes are valid in my view and hardly can be pulled to the same platform. I sometimes feel a bit confused when a well known character goes to a new owner, maybe it is where an improvement would be needed, the problem is I have no idea how to do that properly.

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2 hours ago, nygen said:

email transfers

 

I don't see why email transfer should be forbidden... I regularly change emails on my chars.

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9 minutes ago, Yldrania said:

 

I don't see why email transfer should be forbidden... I regularly change emails on my chars.

Yup - and would solve nothing, many of my alts are on email addresses that could be handed over with them as been made for the sole reason to manage them

Edited by Jaz
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2 hours ago, nygen said:

End account sales / email transfers after a certain publicly announced time frame.

 

They are not good for the financial or economic health of wurm. Account sales will need to be forgone in the event of a steam WO merger anyway. 

 

I disagree with your statement.  Over the years, I've seen veteran players quit and sell their avatars and the new owners pay premium to play them, which is great for the financial health of Wurm.  I've also known people who returned to the game and would only pay premium to play an established avatar because they did not want to re-grind a new avatar.  

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4 minutes ago, Galatyn said:

 

I disagree with your statement.  Over the years, I've seen veteran players quit and sell their avatars and the new owners pay premium to play them, which is great for the financial health of Wurm.  I've also known people who returned to the game and would only pay premium to play an established avatar because they did not want to re-grind a new avatar.  

That is ONE future problem wurm's about to face... grind's not for everybody.. and some of the whales/wallet-warriors(read people with cash but no time or patience..) who'd spend a lot of money on a character/gear or game itself.. 

These people are about to hit a brick wall when they see the grind in this game.. say 'Nope' and just turn around.. As there's no option to get in and be 'somebody' with abilities.

Other solution is to implement pay2win.. pay for x amount of skills.. or "STP" based purchases.. which is just going to turn part of existing players away... 

How do you solve such problem than?

 

Steam is pushing toward this little question.. eventually..

Do we have a solution for that day? IF this issue matters at all..

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worst idea ever. real money trade was as long as the wurm exist and disallowing it now would just upset and annoy most of the people.

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I bought an established pvp avatar and contributed to the economy by purchasing arrows from a player to increase archery, and also purchased special weapons to grind certain weapon skills.  If the original owner had not sold me the pvp avatar, it would have been lost revenue for CC since no premium purchases and for some of the player base who sold me the goods.

Edited by Galatyn
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How are they not good for the financial or economic health of Wurm?  Those who buy an account commonly have multiple toons premm'd at the same time. I know people who keep 10+ accounts prem'd at a time. 

 

Compare that to the guy who is in it to make money and simply converts the silver he makes back to real world cash. How is that helping Code Club? How many people don't pay a cent to the shop and merely use what they make in game to pay their premium and deed upkeep? Not that there is anything wrong with that, that is by design.

 

I don't think the market is monopolized, there are just too few players to buy everything that is produced.

 

If you want a bigger piece of the pie, grow the pie larger. I know, with the upcoming Steam release, that's not a likely scenario.

 

 

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Very good counterarguments from folks here. My economic opinion aside, I feel its best to have a finite date, rather than have it sprung upon us. Perhaps when the WO numbers decrease below self sustainability or the devs decide its time to allow the huddled masses of steam-buns to cross over in to the old lands.

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2 hours ago, Skatyna said:

worst idea ever. real money trade was as long as the wurm exist and disallowing it now would just upset and annoy most of the people.

That is happening either way.. all sorts of direct trading from silver to irl money is banned on steam... and will happen within half-1 year tops, under a year probably.. as steam release is main priority.. and to join this cluster into the steam bit.. some things need to change(read: removing rmt)

 

2 hours ago, Galatyn said:

I bought an established pvp avatar and contributed to the economy by purchasing arrows from a player to increase archery, and also purchased special weapons to grind certain weapon skills.  If the original owner had not sold me the pvp avatar, it would have been lost revenue for CC since no premium purchases and for some of the player base who sold me the goods.

mhm

 

1 hour ago, nygen said:

Very good counterarguments from folks here. My economic opinion aside, I feel its best to have a finite date, rather than have it sprung upon us. Perhaps when the WO numbers decrease below self sustainability or the devs decide its time to allow the huddled masses of steam-buns to cross over in to the old lands.

NO need for such date announcement yet, as it's in everybody's interest, players for whatever reasons to sell last bits of silver or accounts if they feel like it.. before the steam "bomb"; and CC's to not stress players additionally;

If it happens earlier.. it's in CC's ToS that things can change at any time.. early announcement will be good, but by no means, you're in position to require that here and now as it's partially in players' interest to keep it as it is as much as possible. Either way.. this is in suggestions thread.. gl with demands like this.

 

12 minutes ago, heiro said:

+1 i dont like account selling

I don't like golden mirrors, but you know what? Nobody cares, stuff happen, some ppl are happy either way.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Finnn said:

I don't like golden mirrors, but you know what? Nobody cares, stuff happen, some ppl are happy either way.

 

Yes it ruin the game so we are not happy and reverse it, if they ban account selling and you dont like that you know what, nobody cares cause the game will probably have more way to survive and ppl will be happy either way.

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4 minutes ago, Finnn said:

 

NO need for such date announcement yet, as it's in everybody's interest, players for whatever reasons to sell last bits of silver or accounts if they feel like it.. before the steam "bomb"; and CC's to not stress players additionally;

If it happens earlier.. it's in CC's ToS that things can change at any time.. early announcement will be good, but by no means, you're in position to require that here and now as it's partially in players' interest to keep it as it is as much as possible. Either way.. this is in suggestions thread.. gl with demands like this.

 

 

 

 

I see you like civil discussion about peoples opinions. 

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3 minutes ago, heiro said:

 

Yes it ruin the game so we are not happy and reverse it, if they ban account selling and you dont like that you know what, nobody cares cause the game will probably have more way to survive and ppl will be happy either way.

ATM it's tricky to piss off more people.. but you are free to believe whatever you wish.

No need to push anything, as this change IS HAPPENING SOON ANYWAY.

Literally no need to sharpen your pitchfork or light the torches, it's a paved road and game's literally STEAM-ing that way.

Chill, no need to prove anything, wurm's about to be rmt-free in few months.

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9 hours ago, Wargasm said:

As much as I would LOVE to see this.... it aint going to happen.  People will fire sale their accounts in fear of being left holding the bag.

You honestly never struck me as the type; maybe we do have something in common after all.  I tip my hat to you, as I had you pegged as someone only in it for what they could gain.  This has really made me re-think you as a player.

 

6 hours ago, Fineal said:

How are they not good for the financial or economic health of Wurm?

 

It might seem a little odd but take a moment and think.  There are two timelines here to consider.

1.  Someone buys a 70 skilled account; 10 new players who try wurm now have to hit 70 skill to compete with that player in the market; maybe one or two of them do, the rest quit.  Wurm has lost one player and gained 1--2.

2.  Accounts are not sold, the 70 skill character is retired; 10 new players who try wurm now have to hit 60 skill to compete; maybe two or three, or even four do (exponential cost rate), the rest quit.  Wurm has lost one player, and gained 2--3.

There is also the (tacit) argument that a player who buys a 70 skill toon is likely to leave sooner.  A new character spends 6 months getting to 70 to compete, whereas the bought character has already been paid for.

Economically speaking, in terms of player turnover, and ingame economic balance, the bought character causes horrific harm.  They offer a very low chance of long term net player gain.

 

6 hours ago, Galatyn said:

 

I disagree with your statement.  Over the years, I've seen veteran players quit and sell their avatars and the new owners pay premium to play them, which is great for the financial health of Wurm.  I've also known people who returned to the game and would only pay premium to play an established avatar because they did not want to re-grind a new avatar.  

I disagree here; nothing earned goes to the devs.  If you argue that "oh, but players who pay, play more toons", the counter is "yes, they do, but they also play them for less time because they reach saturation (endgame, "nothing to do") faster.

 

 

4 hours ago, Finnn said:

wurm's about to be rmt-free in few months.

For once, our predictions align.

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35 minutes ago, Etherdrifter said:
Spoiler

You honestly never struck me as the type; maybe we do have something in common after all.  I tip my hat to you, as I had you pegged as someone only in it for what they could gain.  This has really made me re-think you as a player.

 

It might seem a little odd but take a moment and think.  There are two timelines here to consider.

1.  Someone buys a 70 skilled account; 10 new players who try wurm now have to hit 70 skill to compete with that player in the market; maybe one or two of them do, the rest quit.  Wurm has lost one player and gained 1--2.

2.  Accounts are not sold, the 70 skill character is retired; 10 new players who try wurm now have to hit 60 skill to compete; maybe two or three, or even four do (exponential cost rate), the rest quit.  Wurm has lost one player, and gained 2--3.

There is also the (tacit) argument that a player who buys a 70 skill toon is likely to leave sooner.  A new character spends 6 months getting to 70 to compete, whereas the bought character has already been paid for.

Economically speaking, in terms of player turnover, and ingame economic balance, the bought character causes horrific harm.  They offer a very low chance of long term net player gain.

 

I disagree here; nothing earned goes to the devs.  If you argue that "oh, but players who pay, play more toons", the counter is "yes, they do, but they also play them for less time because they reach saturation (endgame, "nothing to do") faster.

 

 

For once, our predictions align.

 

 

Hm I'll disagree with the 1-2-5-10 or whatever 60-70 grinders as new players do not all go premium.. and these who do.. do not rush to get anything to 70 or 50 etc.. for some it's really slow paced game, while others could get 70 in a day..

 

Resold chars are used as helping wheels or workaround.. for the fatigue, also speeds up things when it comes to RL/in-game time.. and making bulk stuff to build with or sell..as you are able to simultaneously queue several actions at once.

Priest alts.. you mostly need for specific time.. fix a mine, do a few enchants.. than they go unpremmed if here's no work for them.. natural with sub model and cost per character.

 

I've seen a few names to come and go during the years.. who return and buy alt accounts and play for months/year.. than again go away and sell everything they do not need.. having silver for next return or selling that too and using the 'silver' irl until next return...

 

I don't see a 70-skilled char as a monster to scare anybody... as single skill.. you're able to get that in 1-2 days if you had enough sleep bonus, tools and knowledge, + wish for carpal tunnel adventure of ice bags and such..

 

Buying 70-skilled char.. I do not believe it's a sentence to quit soon after that... it's a toon as any other.. could be improved or remain at same skill for years, even if it's premmed for the whole time period.

 

Devs could have made sales to go through them long time ago.. and to take a cut of the trade... which was only going to make the buyer pay more.. or buyer/seller to share a bit of the income loss from such trading.

 

One of biggest issues with wurm's economy is the decision to not monetize simple things that have proven to work well for any other game.. and to insist on the prem model alone, which have only given wurm the - alts. Are alts good for the economy - no.. but they are good for the prem count and money coming to CC. It's literally the only thing that have been adopted as additional money maker.

Edited by Finnn
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25 minutes ago, Finnn said:

 

One of biggest issues with wurm's economy is the decision to not monetize simple things that have proven to work well for any other game.. and to insist on the prem model alone, which have only given wurm the - alts. Are alts good for the economy - no.. but they are good for the prem count and money coming to CC. It's literally the only thing that have been adopted as additional money maker.

 

This always baffled me. More money should hopefully in theory mean more development and advances.  Good point. 

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1 hour ago, Etherdrifter said:

I disagree here; nothing earned goes to the devs.  If you argue that "oh, but players who pay, play more toons", the counter is "yes, they do, but they also play them for less time because they reach saturation (endgame, "nothing to do") faster.

The devs got money from the subscription, deed upkeep, and whatnot purchased by the previous owner of the account while they were playing the game/grinding it. It's not like the accounts for sale suddenly appeared out of nowhere.

 

I'll give an example, an average account i bought a few months ago for 80 euro

[14:08:14] You entered through the portal to Wurm on Luck day, week 4 of the Bear's starfall, 1021. That's 4187 days, 10 hours and 38 minutes ago.
[14:08:14] You have played 402 days, 6 hours and 54 minutes.
[14:08:14] You have been premium a total of 42 months until Dec 2013.
[14:08:14] You have been premium a total of 53 months since Dec 2013.
[14:08:14] You have been premium consecutively for 0 months since Dec 2013.
[14:08:14] You have premium time until 27 Jan 2020 21:08:03 GMT

I think the devs have gotten a bit of money from those 95 months of premium, deed upkeep for that time, any silver purchased for trading, and whatnot in that time.

 

1 hour ago, Etherdrifter said:

1.  Someone buys a 70 skilled account; 10 new players who try wurm now have to hit 70 skill to compete with that player in the market; maybe one or two of them do, the rest quit.  Wurm has lost one player and gained 1--2.

If someone quit because they can't make money in the game, no love lost. Perhaps they should grind up their character themselves, like every character in the market has? It's easier than ever to grind to high skills with 90+ql and coc tools being insanely easy to get, skill grinding calculators being public from WU code, free sleep bonus out the ass nonstop from missions/buying premium/downtime/global spells. You can grind a skill to 90 atleast 5x faster, if not even faster than that, than someone in 2015 had due to the abundance of knowledge and gear.

 

 

As for actual suggestion, i'm on the fence about it. People will panic sale and quit the game if they think they won't be able to in the future (check out what happened to the WTS forums after the steam announcement if you don't believe me), Which will almost guarantee a reduced player count, with some of the remaining players happy that they picked up a good account for pennies, be hilarious if someone bought a 99+ everything account for cheap after the announcement and used it to sell items on the market, ey? 

Market impact? I don't think it'll have too much of an impact. Everyone that's interested in selling in the market already has an account or has grinded up their own account, so preventing selling accounts doesn't really help there, it just prevents people from buying an account to shortcut their way into competing with established traders. But like, most people have their weaponsmith and their platesmith and their casts guy and whatnot, and will always go to them instead of some account that was recently bought popping up in trade chat. It's a pretty funny thing to see, i get people telling me market is dead everything has no value etc, but i've never got a shortage of people messaging me about buying stuff, even when i'm not posting in trade chat lol. Account selling should have never been allowed in the first place, but taking it out over a decade later is just a "we got ours now piss off" to everyone that comes to the game after the change.

 

Personally i think there's many other problems with the market that people scapegoat account selling for, high level accounts being resold didn't really effect the market too much apart from the vyn enchants, they had more of an impact on pvp tbh. 1c mailing with no limits had more of a negative impact on the mid skill seller than account reselling did, coz you can just get an imp for cheaper and faster from some guy with 99 skill on a different server instead of your neighborhood smith

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