Eyesgood

What Is Wrong With Wurm?

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21 hours ago, Eyesgood said:

I know back in 2009 when I started playing, I distinctly remember thinking how awesome it was that I can pay 5 Euro a toon and be able to have more than one so I could experience both crafting and priesting. That was back in the day when $9.95 a month subs were commonplace.   I would venture to say there would be more than 295 in Wurm today had Rolf not done that, which would translate into more income for CC and more players populating the lands of Wurm.  But we will never know now...  They way of almost every game today is to go free-to-play and have a shop for non-pay-to-win items.  CC has neither.  I suggest a NEW MONETARY MODEL for Wurm.  I don't care what it is, so long as it makes Wurm more attractive to new and existing players and more affordable.

 

Something I wanted to mention - World of Warcraft, which is also still a sub game and probably the biggest fish in this pond out there, is EUR 12.99 monthly, or EUR 10.99 per month if you pay per half year. But for that price you get to have up to FIFTY toons. Used to be there was a separate, lower, cap per server (started at 10 and gradually increased to 18) but that was dropped. So you can now have fifty different characters, even on the same server. The only real tradeoff is that you can't log in more than one of them at the same time. Sure, very few people will actually have fifty toons, but many people will have at least one of each class (because different classes give considerably different gameplay, and even different quests), and at any rate you need at least six toons to cover all primary professions. And then you might also want toons on the other faction. What I'm getting at is, if you've played for a while, you can easily have ten or twenty *meaningfully different* toons, even if you only seriously play one or two at a time.

 

In Wurm, it's EUR 8.00 per month if you pay per two months, down to EUR 6.67 per month if you pay per year. Since regular and priest characters are very different, most people will have at least two accounts. Now you're at EUR 16.00 to EUR 13.34 a month. And you're still missing out on various priest spells. You need another two priest characters to cover all the bases, though you could of course prem only one of the priests at a time. But if you also want a deed you need still more money per month.

 

Yeah you can log in all your toons at once in Wurm but honestly this is not financially attractive. The typical subscription (main + priest toon) for Wurm is *more expensive* than the typical subscription for WoW, even if you buy Wurm per year and WoW per month, and even if you don't factor in having a deed. I still play Wurm because I'm having fun here right now and I've grown bored with WoW, but yeah the model needs to change.

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6 hours ago, nygen said:

OP brought up some good points, especially about saturation on the high end. Steam WO will go a long way towards remedying that.

 

Also, in terms of censorship, I see retro being pretty fair. If you whip your nethers out in front of the police, you can't cry  discrimination when they arrest you with cause. As far as I see the devs let constructive criticism and design complaints slide (albeit often it does not find a receptive ear).  Its personal attacks and toxicity that get moderated. 

Not always the case, which is a big deal of causing additional frustration when you're mad at something in the game, toa, decision, direction, etc, there's still no way to solve such cases.

The game is in no way open-developed and customers do not have much or any say what should happen(which some people do not understand, their delusion, which is ok), but some freedom about discussing metas should be FREE in some corner of the forums In My Opinion. Clearly badwords and talking bad stuff about staff/devs/players is a no-no, but discussing something or commenting freely should be ok.. which isn't.. always.

I've had 'politically'(tos)-correct posts which vanished... for example, never had a pm telling me to chill for a bit... because I just tickled the corner of x.y paragraph in the tos rules, that is not transparent, looks a bit more like selective/random moderation.

If we do not discuss metas... how and when are they going to be fixed?

 

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It's absolutely okay to talk about things you're mad about, I mean, look at this thread "what is wrong with Wurm?" 

 

The issue is some cross that line in their writing, they get too passionate and start to lean into dev/game bashing, which is against the rules. 

 

We are always more than happy to take part in this conversation, it's just important that doing so doesn't just lead to abuse being hurled at us from every angle. 

 

If you have issues within the game feel free to share them, if you have issues about the game feel free to share them. If you are angry about the game and just want to rage and yell, maybe I'll set up an anonymous google form so you can do just that. 

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We have been looking into potentially finding a way for premium to cover a small sized deed upkeep as well, we don't want it to be just silver or some way to gain extra silver out of it, but we'll see. 

 

Like dropping it straight into upkeep? Or a percentage reduction to it.

Edited by cccdfern

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5 hours ago, Arishok said:

- Where am I going?  There is no method to know if the a town in an area offers beds, food, imp service or anything else I might want.  No way to know but Hey Global.

 

It feels like you either dive right in to Chaos... or you struggle to get your feet on the ground in the Freedom Isles, and Chaos is just some far away death vacuum that no one plays at, but no one is confident to go.  I worked so hard at getting this one quality hammer!  I needs it! I cant loose it in Chaos.... what could a single player, or small group do in Chaos (reward) that is worth the risk of losing my cheap ass, yet hard earned gear?  I mean isn't that what Freedom isles is mostly made of? Single/Small Groups?

 

I think the conversations surrounding the identity crisis is where its at.  I can be a hunter - but I cant really.  I can be an innkeeper - but I cant really.  I can be a merchant and resale others goods, but I cant really.  I can be a soldier, but I cant really.  I can be a sailor, but I cant really.

 

That's a good idea for wurm map and pins, with a decent search for services and area-based search.. that could be golden... but.... game barely have players to utilize that.... maybe if steam goes viral... and somebody actually code such.... could even make 'legal' coins outside of the game despite the steam rmt ban.. this will be paying for ads to show on top and such....

 

Who the .... are you calling small or single??

About the hammer.. Thor have one, you can't have it.. live with that thought. For some people having their own normal/rare/supreme hammer is all they want.. and to have their name on it.. as creator.. or to just NOT having to make/buy another. With the system to create and maintain gear it makes sense to stick to some items of yours.. Why do the lazy weirdos @pvp have to take other's pixels? Greed? Sure.. play with the other greedy kids, no ty for that playstyle. Seems like the common choice to not play on pvp maps because of the affinitty/item/money loss;  on the other hand whoever felt like preferring such mode.. gambling of gear and money kept their thrill going - everybody's happy with what makes them happy. Can't blame the one or the other for their picks.

 

You can be whatever you prefer, as long it gives you enough to keep going, not talking about making coins btw.. but as long you get good at what you wanted. and making coins is important.. you'll also make it work. No clue what crisis you're talking about.

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, cccdfern said:

 

 

Like dropping it straight into upkeep? 

Yes, but also something that cannot be taken out too, It would allow us to be a bit more generous with it if we knew it wouldnt simply add silver into the economy too (discounted rates for purchasing deed upkeep silver vs other silver and such) 

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29 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

It's absolutely okay to talk about things you're mad about, I mean, look at this thread "what is wrong with Wurm?" 

 

The issue is some cross that line in their writing, they get too passionate and start to lean into dev/game bashing, which is against the rules. 

 

We are always more than happy to take part in this conversation, it's just important that doing so doesn't just lead to abuse being hurled at us from every angle. 

 

If you have issues within the game feel free to share them, if you have issues about the game feel free to share them. If you are angry about the game and just want to rage and yell, maybe I'll set up an anonymous google form so you can do just that. 

I can think about 3 topics which will instantly 'flag' my posts to be deleted, and it's just issues that are ongoing and never solved, so far once or twice I've talked or got close to comment on them - they've been deleted. I can assure you, no gm/dev bashing was involved.

I don't feel like asking questions during streams or on forums around these problems as they'll get ignored or deleted/hidden/etc. Non the less... ongoing problems...

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exactly what @Finnnsaid

 

also let me give you a hypothetical

lets assume a team member is taking the rules a little bit too serious, or misbehaving in any other way

lets just also assume that the player who realized went the proper way of reporting those issues, not just in one case

and then lets assume that the answer pretty much was "if you have a problem with it, dont let the door hit you on your way out!"

 

now apart from not getting the right response when reporting issues through the proper channels, arent we allowed to at least make them known?

would actually surprise me if it wasnt by the vast majority of people playing this game by now, even though you did a pretty good job of "hiding" it the last few months

 

i think if one or two guys keep posting the same dumb old stuff and complain about certain tactics the moderation team uses, you can be sure its just trolls

its more than just 1-2 people, wake up

 

btw what if, and i am only saying IF (pls no ban), you are just sitting there in your australian mansion, sipping fosters out of cocktail glasses and laughing your ass off that you got away with enforcing personal interests in the game you got hired for, while a kangaroo gives you a hot stone massage

Edited by Quicktor
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If you raise issues with the rules and you're told that your own interpretation is wrong, it's not a matter of "complain until someone agrees with you" 

 

You may feel that the rules were taken too seriously or that any moderation was unwarranted, that's why you take it to the head. If the head disagrees with you, then you need to accept that. 

 

3 minutes ago, Quicktor said:

btw what if, and i am only saying IF (pls no ban), you are just sitting there in your australian mansion, sipping fosters out of cocktail glasses and laughing your ass off that you got away with enforcing personal interests in the game you got hired for, while a kangaroo gives you a hot stone massage

But I'm in NZ now 

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22 minutes ago, Finnn said:

 

That's a good idea for wurm map and pins, with a decent search for services and area-based search.. that could be golden... but.... game barely have players to utilize that.... maybe if steam goes viral... and somebody actually code such.... could even make 'legal' coins outside of the game despite the steam rmt ban.. this will be paying for ads to show on top and such....

 

Who the .... are you calling small or single??

About the hammer.. Thor have one, you can't have it.. live with that thought. For some people having their own normal/rare/supreme hammer is all they want.. and to have their name on it.. as creator.. or to just NOT having to make/buy another. With the system to create and maintain gear it makes sense to stick to some items of yours.. Why do the lazy weirdos @pvp have to take other's pixels? Greed? Sure.. play with the other greedy kids, no ty for that playstyle. Seems like the common choice to not play on pvp maps because of the affinitty/item/money loss;  on the other hand whoever felt like preferring such mode.. gambling of gear and money kept their thrill going - everybody's happy with what makes them happy. Can't blame the one or the other for their picks.

 

You can be whatever you prefer, as long it gives you enough to keep going, not talking about making coins btw.. but as long you get good at what you wanted. and making coins is important.. you'll also make it work. No clue what crisis you're talking about.

 

 

 

I liked that.

 

The "crisis" is just an obscure reference to some comments others have made recently - not worded clearly on my part.  Just the concept of Wurm not exactly sure of what it wants to be.  We can be whatever we want, sure, that is what I am doing.  No plans on changing any of that.

 

First I wanted to be an inn-keeper and ply my guests with cold brew.  Playing with such a large group of rugged individualist - never really seemed to take off for me.  No place, except maybe sorta Havens Landing, drags people regularly through an area.  The players are so damned generous anyway! Free beds for all!  All is well.

 

Ok, maybe I will become a hunter! Get a cool hat and everything.  As much as I tried to make that work, I just drag myself across the map long enough and have crates of quality harvest.  Until I run in to a beast that hits back harder than I like.  I am bait, and my polearms the hook.  Cut, slice, head back to camp.  The only thing you really seem to hunt and seek are uniques.  That seems to have gotten... intense.

 

A REALLY awesome player recently climbed the whole cliff face of Maple Island to retrieve my corpse.  I carry everything, of course.  Everything.  All my awesome hammers, and saws, and mallets, and 3 axes, and... so on.  Bought most of them... was preparing to start over, but dude saved my ass.

 

But that is my point, really.  To bring the masses to PvP, I believe you bring PvP to the masses.  PURPOSE plus LESS/NO Loot loss.  There is room for fun, open loot, "I will mug your ass for everything you carry" PvP,  - AND - PvP for fun+purpose, that numbers matter more than skill - but you go back to your deed all safe and sound... with your hammer, and later I can ride down to ole billy bobs farm to look at his new foals.

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1 minute ago, Quicktor said:

hey, all i am saying is you must be doing a really good job

 

http://wurmonline.com/status-new/

What this discussion is for is areas people disagree with or feel could be improved. The ones hijacking it to argue about moderation are derailing from the purpose.

 

I've tried my best to explain the issues we face with moderation, and your various complaints, but in the end it feels like you believe that if you don't have the freedom to say whatever you like, then it's a lost cause. 

 

This is a private forum with rules we clearly outline, if you struggle to follow them I suggest you spend time brushing up on them. 

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15 minutes ago, Quicktor said:

exactly what @Finnnsaid

I'm sure we're thinking about 3 different things, well probably.. but pff.. if you have something on mind.. and I do.. I guess it opens a field of frustration that could be filled and improve the game somehow... but.. if we can't talk about it... how can we voice concerns about things we can not mention here?

 

What was that google form retro mentioned? and who's supposed to review them, how are such issues or questions going to be answered and processed? Will there be some feedback from staff/dev side for such?

Edited by Finnn

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I could possibly, depending on just how horrible the abuse in it is! Similar to sindusks weekly rage thread with a bit of prep too 

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25 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

If you raise issues with the rules and you're told that your own interpretation is wrong, it's not a matter of "complain until someone agrees with you" 

 

You may feel that the rules were taken too seriously or that any moderation was unwarranted, that's why you take it to the head. If the head disagrees with you, then you need to accept that. 

 

But I'm in NZ now 

You hardly can take anything that's gone... anywhere because it's gone.. you can't even analyze or prove anything, and saving posts in word/notepad/etc.. is just weird .. and proving the point that commenting on forums isn't more than a privilege, at which point other solutions emerge.

 

I'm not trying to be a smart ass, just pointing that if a customer or player can not even review the deleted/hidden post on it's own... it's hard to prove or report(ask for higher mod/gm to check what's up with the moderation; there's also no practice to reply even from anonymous mod account which tos paragraph the user have 'violated' or scratched upon)

 

Not steaming.. just pointing there's a bit of room for improvement to be 'transparent' as currently a lot seems like random actions by unknown people for unknown reasons, which brings frustration.. 

I try to leave a lot of bread crumbs in my posts but, it's hardly helping anybody, already talked in a post about same moderation issues few months ago without any reaction to that.

 

I doubt that turning the comments into suggestions will ease the process, it's only extra work that will be buried/fine this and maybe above line was a rant, I'll stop here/

 

I'm not talking about gradiator/gladys or whatever other nicknames are there.. I'm almost always talking in general as usual.

Edited by Finnn
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35 minutes ago, Arishok said:

I liked that.

 

The "crisis" is just an obscure reference to some comments others have made recently - not worded clearly on my part.  Just the concept of Wurm not exactly sure of what it wants to be.  We can be whatever we want, sure, that is what I am doing.  No plans on changing any of that.

 

First I wanted to be an inn-keeper and ply my guests with cold brew.  Playing with such a large group of rugged individualist - never really seemed to take off for me.  No place, except maybe sorta Havens Landing, drags people regularly through an area.  The players are so damned generous anyway! Free beds for all!  All is well.

 

Ok, maybe I will become a hunter! Get a cool hat and everything.  As much as I tried to make that work, I just drag myself across the map long enough and have crates of quality harvest.  Until I run in to a beast that hits back harder than I like.  I am bait, and my polearms the hook.  Cut, slice, head back to camp.  The only thing you really seem to hunt and seek are uniques.  That seems to have gotten... intense.

 

A REALLY awesome player recently climbed the whole cliff face of Maple Island to retrieve my corpse.  I carry everything, of course.  Everything.  All my awesome hammers, and saws, and mallets, and 3 axes, and... so on.  Bought most of them... was preparing to start over, but dude saved my ass.

 

But that is my point, really.  To bring the masses to PvP, I believe you bring PvP to the masses.  PURPOSE plus LESS/NO Loot loss.  There is room for fun, open loot, "I will mug your ass for everything you carry" PvP,  - AND - PvP for fun+purpose, that numbers matter more than skill - but you go back to your deed all safe and sound... with your hammer, and later I can ride down to ole billy bobs farm to look at his new foals.

I liked the part with 'I'm the bait, and my polearm's the hook......' sounds about right when it comes to hunting. About the uniques.. sorry no such in wurm.. certain names takes away all of the fun of that, wait, takes whole content in general and there are no uniques in wurm. Probably should have added "" to be politically correct, let me do that here as I believe the right place is here.."" (take it as a joke or not.. but I'm not joking, had to add "" to be polit.. you get it..)
My post's about to be moderated or deleted for mentioning that.. or be warned or banned.. but that's just 1 of the 3 topics we can not ever talk about.

Good luck with your illusions though.

 

Bringing pvp to pve-ers will make them move to WU, and WU modding with the crowdfunding will flourish. Mark my words, if for what ~15 years.. most of the players preferred to play on pve servers.. they must have some idea what they like...

About the no-loss... pvp-ers will either cry- wait they never cry.. so.. voodoo dolls of you will be made and terrible things are bound to happen to your soul.. yea.. PVP's charm for pvpers is the whole gamble and thrill to get somebody's something.. being items that take value/time/resource/money to make or get... and the actual token draining... or jackpot... killing and looting somebody with drake/scale armor making your day or week..

You'll hardly take such joy from somebody that lived with this for years... 

 

On the other hand.. you'll hardly make anybody like Thor to ever play on a pvp map.. so..

Lesson of the day is.. unless unthinkable happens,  or have a pve/light-pvp(no loss of any kind just player vs player kills)/full pvp with full loot.. things are going to be as they are.

 

PvP imo lacks PR to jebait people into trying it... and the whole baba-yaga thing with item-loss just scares new or older players to try it, since there's no save and load or .. reboot to your initial gear/affinities.. it's hard to ever try it; Unless you want other's pixels or crave a bit of gambling in wurm.. you'll never jump into it, unless you're done a rash decision... I guess.

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I've inquired about rebuilding/modelling a starter deed (Sloping Sands) for months now... And always fall on deaf ears. PM's are read, nothing is ever set-up. Even said to a select few that it would be a good way to keep me active- no response. 

 

Sorry to say- I know the Dev team is small and busy, but if someone offers free help (and was even going to supply materials myself), please don't brush it off...

 

 

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1 minute ago, Allenkey said:

I've inquired about rebuilding/modelling a starter deed (Sloping Sands) for months now... And always fall on deaf ears. PM's are read, nothing is ever set-up. Even said to a select few that it would be a good way to keep me active- no response. 

 

Sorry to say- I know the Dev team is small and busy, but if someone offers free help (and was even going to supply materials myself), please don't brush it off...

 

 

I did say I was going to be opening it as a design a deed competition. Sorry for not answering your PM! But expect that comp soon. 

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1 hour ago, Retrograde said:

What this discussion is for is areas people disagree with or feel could be improved. The ones hijacking it to argue about moderation are derailing from the purpose.

 

I've tried my best to explain the issues we face with moderation, and your various complaints, but in the end it feels like you believe that if you don't have the freedom to say whatever you like, then it's a lost cause. 

 

This is a private forum with rules we clearly outline, if you struggle to follow them I suggest you spend time brushing up on them. 

The issue is your rules are up for interpretation by staff and often applied in a very lopsided manner. People get banned for reasons such as "toxic player" or "noth worth dealing with" when they have broken no rule. And yes, I do understand you may not like what someone says, and that perhaps it may offend you, but if you carter to everyone who was offended, then you'll run out of players. 

 

Which is precisely what is happening. 

 

I have stopped to play actively and moved on because nearly all people I played with (friends and foes alike) have been banned, and those who havent have left because our mutual players have been banned. 

 

A forum is a place where people go to share their opinions and sentiments. We have people here who have played for over a decade, and have literally been forced out of the game because they hold different views.

 

I know you won't understand this and you will shake your fist at the sky about how the naysayers should be eradicated, but look at your numbers, my man. They are going anywhere but up. We've dropped below 300 players on at the same time, with our largest server not even hitting 100 people, and some having no players at all. Hell, even Jackal, which is our most recent and hyped server, has single digit numbers. I cannot fathom how you can justify this and tell yourself this is okay.

 

I was thinking of coming back fulltime, but why? All my close friends (and I really mean all) are either banned or quit, and we have less people than we've had in a long time. There are no pvp servers to speak of, and my closest neighbor is probably an hour sail away. An mmo without players. And the worst thing of it all is I cant even say all those banned people had it coming.

 

I can only look forward to the steam launch and hope that perhaps something will change. But we all know it wont.

 

 

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Why there is no advertising? Even if this game is niche and only 0.00001% of players actually stays and plays, its better than nothing. Advertise for the fosters sake. No excuses, just do it. Ty.

 

Also when i last commented the payment model, i was only thinking about my experience since i play only with 1 account, 2 accounts are 32euros per two months... And we mostly need 2 accounts, main and priest. Thats a bit too expensive, reason why i dont keep 2 accounts because i cant justify the cost for actual playing time which both accounts require. For 1 account i can justify it because i can focus 100% on the grinding. 

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It was explained by Retrolf recently that they have tried both broad and targeted advertising and its simply not been financially viable.

 

I'll add the source link when I find it.

 

Edit, Could've sworn it was a post by Rolf, my mistake, was Retro and covers this.

 

Edited by cccdfern
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20 minutes ago, cccdfern said:

It was explained by Rolf recently that they have tried both broad and targeted advertising and its simply not been financially viable.

I'll add the source link when I find it.

I agree to that point that advertising is expensive and probably does not pay. But: I already pointed out that even smaller games get more attention in the outside world. Wurm is one of the very few 3D video games available on all three Windows, Mac, and Linux architectures. Granted that Linuxers can use Steam to get more 3D games working, but honestly, compared to native clients, Steam is ###### (honestly, I believe that Steam is ###### anyway, and would not use it - been there - , but that is my opinion). But there are computer magazines and portals, Linux oriented mags and portals, game oriented games and portals. Have press releases ever been tried, or getting some reviews or articles about Wurm? I never saw one.

And I do not know how a game could make it into Linux distro game sections. Steam managed to get there, there antediluvial 32bit libraries notwithstanding.

 

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One thing about the mobility discussion: I think that the practical impossibility for newbies to move around a lot (other than suiciding) is a major reason that so many leave after short time. Summon soul addressed that issue to some extent for more experienced players, so do karma and meditation teleport, yet they are not so much of a help for new players. There have been a lot of proposals, of which I consider portals between different starter towns (if any) quite sensible and viable, but that too is a fairly limited service, bee it free or for a charge.

 

A possibility would be using the wagoner system for personal travel. For that, it would be good to create an additional seat right beside the wagon driver so that 2 persons can travel along with the driver, they should stay embarked even when logged off no different from ship passengers on the same server. Players could then order a wagoner ticket from one wagoner post to any other, for say, 1copper. They could then choose to  stay online and watch the journey, or just log out, being dropped at the end of the journey. 

 

While this would be slower than instant teleport, it would still be a way to travel, and breaking the effective curfey for newbies. It should be possible, too, maybe for an additional fee, to hitch a mount (up to 2 depending on the number of passengers) to the wagon (technically lead by the wagon driver, as long as the player is on the wagon as passenger). This would allow players to jump off at some point of the journey, lead, and ride their mount.

Edited by Ekcin
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39 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

A possibility would be using the wagoner system for personal travel. For that, it would be good to create an additional seat right beside the wagon driver so that 2 persons can travel along with the driver, they should stay embarked even when logged off no different from ship passengers on the same server. Players could then order a wagoner ticket from one wagoner post to any other, for say, 1copper. They could then choose to  stay online and watch the journey, or just log out, being dropped at the end of the journey. 

 

I see wagoners so rarely, but was on Xanadu the other day and saw one trundling past and went racing after it just to see if it'd let me hop on the back seat of the wagon (because I think hitch-hiking a lift would be a really fun and in-keeping way to travel, and I wondered if it was already implemented). Much as I think that *would* be a nice thing to be able to do, though, that only works if you don't mind too much where you go, since the wagon could be going anywhere by whatever highway route.

I do think some kind of NPC stagecoach option at starter settlements would be nice (maybe as a bolt-on to the pre-existing wagoner service so recruiting villages on the highway system could be a destination too). You pay a few coins into the coffers, and in exchange you get transport to another wagoner station/starter town, even if you don't yet have in game friends or the body strength to have a horse or cart.

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