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Eyesgood

What Is Wrong With Wurm?

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Just to chime in here; I've previously had posts removed without explanation, and then a snarky comment when I reposted assuming it was an error at my end.  Not the most professional experience, and not an isolated one judging from the vitriol here.

 

Set up an automated system where (if a post is removed) the remover ticks a box saying which part of the ToS was breached.  The poster gets an automated PM telling them their post has been removed with the boxes ticked listed.

 

Players get feedback on why things were removed(behavioural correction), there is a paper trail to track mods abusing powers (transparency), and everyone wins.

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1 hour ago, crimsonearth said:

 

I see wagoners so rarely, but was on Xanadu the other day and saw one trundling past and went racing after it just to see if it'd let me hop on the back seat of the wagon (because I think hitch-hiking a lift would be a really fun and in-keeping way to travel, and I wondered if it was already implemented). Much as I think that *would* be a nice thing to be able to do, though, that only works if you don't mind too much where you go, since the wagon could be going anywhere by whatever highway route.

 

The idea was to be able to make a wagon go from one station to the other much like as if you were sending a crate (which costs 1c as well), so that the starting point would be a wagoner station, or even a wagoner container at a waypoint, and the destination like in the wagoner container dialog.

 

I wondered, too whether one can hop onto a wagoner's wagon seat already, but do not think so. It might make the wagoner chat more useful if they would announce a tour and invite passengers to their previously scheduled tour. That would be a more random journey then.

Edited by Ekcin
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1 hour ago, Etherdrifter said:

Just to chime in here; I've previously had posts removed without explanation, and then a snarky comment when I reposted assuming it was an error at my end.  Not the most professional experience, and not an isolated one judging from the vitriol here.

 

Set up an automated system where (if a post is removed) the remover ticks a box saying which part of the ToS was breached.  The poster gets an automated PM telling them their post has been removed with the boxes ticked listed.

 

Players get feedback on why things were removed(behavioural correction), there is a paper trail to track mods abusing powers (transparency), and everyone wins.

This has been suggested before atleast 7 times so far that i know of once by myself but its to much work they wont put it in

Which brings me to a point i want to raise this here is my honest to god opinion and not an attempt at "creating drama" or "bashing a gm/staff member for the fun of it" so take it as it is

In my opinion the reason wurm has gone from its 10k active accounts and 2k+ online players to 200-300 average comes down to a few things
1. The attitude the staff have from the low level ca's to the top level devs and rolf, A lot of the attitude they show of time and time again is "we are just milking a dead cow that has dried up for every penny and are doing as little as possible to preserve its corpse so that we can keep getting milk from it"  they are lazy, they ######, they complain, they treat people unfairly if they dont like you, they lie straight up to your face time and time again even when you call them out, they refuse to do what is best for wurm and would rather be part of their little special gentlemans club then realize "hey maybe it is time to take a step back focus on myself and train a replacement or train extra help to help me on my job as i cant do it alone anymore" they refuse to do this they will decline devs who apply people who can be amazing help, They push away brilliant idea's, They will beat out any form of innovation just for the sake of feeling more powerful.
2. The gaming scene is changing we have gone by the times where the older generation would sit down after work and grind in uo or rs or wurm or other games like it where muds where dominant where most games looked worse then wurm did at its start, We have gone into the era where building games are engaging gone away from collecting 20 bricks and 20 mortar to make a wall and just 5 stone or 10 building materials, We have gone from having to be great at learning a course in racing games to learning how to get infinite nitro in the latest racing games.
We went from big open map long paced fps combat to 3-4 shots your dead and you never saw the guy in the first place, We went from browser games being fun and engaging to p2w infested mobile "games"

The world has changed but wurm hasnt the devs are trying to work with the mindset of 10 years ago where joe the 34 year old manager at walmart would come home at 6pm have dinner do some chores jump on wurm at 7pm and play until midnight-1am and run 3-4 toons and the general population is now of here is Bob working 2 jobs getting paid ###### wanting to come home after dealing with annoying soccer moms all day and just wants to vent frustration be it in a simple building game where he can relax or a fast paced shooter or maybe race around beautiful landscapes

Bob has no desire at all to get home and jump on his 3rd job called wurm online and that is what this game is now job for years i have played this since early beta days and its always been a job to me when i was younger when ever i had free time id be on tf2 or wurm id be pulling 12-14 hour days in wurm day in day out every weekend just to be on just to slowly grind away at my place all alone never really grinding points but just building deed after deed.
Then years later i made more and more alts and i wasted more and more money on this game and for what? A digital number that never will quite reach 100 or a deed like macoofers which can only really be done if you play wurm like you play eve?

The amount of people who want to play wurm in the style of wurm online is really low young gamers dont want to play a game that will require countless hours to just become "decent" they got friends they got new games they got school and uni and collage and loved ones, The older generation of now 30-40-50 year olds have kids wifes husbands jobs mortgages other family dreams you name it

No longer is wurm the kind of game that will pull 10k+ people as the game is out of touch with the general gaming population

Look at the game ancestor the humankind odyssey its got a 5.5 score out of 205 user reviews a 64 metascore from 70 "critics" its got a dev going banana's at people giving it bad reviews now all of us here at wurm slavetrade online we would most likely love this game and give it a 8-9 out of 10 but the general population does not like this kind of game with its grind to play but get punished for grinding setup

Now look at my friend pedro a silly simple quick bullet hell shooter its simple quick easy to play(really hard to master) 8.0 user score 81 metascore and somewhere between 500k to 1m owners on steam

The market is flooded with quick to jump in hard to master games that you can play for a hour or 2 a day and you wont be punished for taking a week or a month or 6 break now you might go but what about sandbox games well we have a similar comparison there too
Kenshi a game that is a diamond in the rough(something wurm once was) but its dated graphics and rather harsh learning curve(and after that it feels empty) make a lot of people not give it a 2nd chance or a chance at all after watching a video or 2
Then on the other side we got games like rust and 7dtd or planet zoo or terraria all games that are easy to jump in play for a bit engaging from beginning to the end and have something for the casual and hardcore player

Wurm on the other hand only has something for the hardcore player(yes even you guys who consider yourself casual now days you stuck around for years so you are one too) really as 1 a skill system that promotes long gaming sessions 2 a skill increase "p2w" mechanic called sleep bonus the quotations are because although we can get it from beds and spells main way we get it is dev screwups or sleep powder that we buy and 3 everything in the game is slow and if something fast is found it is nerved

Lets take the crafting and improving system of wurm its indepth its amazing a lot of us love it(i hate imping) but there is a mayor flaw in its design a new player with no understanding is screwed as no good help resources are there to guide him or her for starters and even after that oh you want to make a cart? well here is a shopping list now go to the nearest ikea and enjoy shopping for parts
The improving system is a carpel tunnel syndrome creation system that promotes botting or paying people who dont care about their long term wrist health
Lets take a look at 7dtd originally it had a crafting system where we had to spam create the same item to raise a skill this lead to people just turtling in a indestructible self sufficient base logging off after 5-10 min of gameplay a day because they are waiting for their trees to grow so that they can gather logs for wood for mallet spam to grind that crafting skill
This was then changed to being able to combine 2 of the same kind to increase quality and later on(as it is now) changed to a skill perk system where everything gives you xp towards a level and perks put into skills raise the quality of a item and they did away with 800ql level and went to 6 with quality and durability seperate
Next to that they expanded weapon crafting with guns and vehicles being modular in the sense that if you have mods that add in 50000 scopes your sniper rifle can have 1 of those 50k scopes and you can swap it on the fly for something else
That new skill system caused an uproar when announced but after the initial anger was over people actually loved it and enjoyed it a lot more

The devs of 7dtd see something that is wrong in their game and see something that is causing players to leave and quit and decide to change what is needed to fix that black hole that is sucking away players
The devs of wurm see something that is wrong in their game and see something that is causing players to leave and quit and decide to "hey lets throw a new map/server at it that will fix it" or "hey lets promise to make these changes but never do it"

You can see where 1 dev team is looking for the best of their game vs their vision and the other is being stubborn refusing to change and adapt and like i read a while back "You can choose to change with the times, take advantage of new opportunities in your industry and grow your business. Or you can fight the changes, refuse to adapt, and watch your business likely perish." And that is exactly what wurm is doing fight change and refuse to adapt


I love this game i spend more then half my life almost on and off playing wurm i have invested thousands of bucks into it and it saddens me that the devs go "herp derp i dont wanna do this 10 second fix" or "Ya we will promise you that but we wont actually ever do it" 
I look at the wurm dev team and i see a group of people who is more concerned about keeping their idea's in place their strict opinions then a group of people who want to watch their game grow and improve and survive another 10+ years
Look at factorio's dev team they pull off the impossible and are passionate about it and even take in account idiotic decisions just for the fun of their internal testing builds they put more content in 1 update then the wurm dev team does in a year(and updates happen often)
Look at rimworld tynan and piotr and ben are pulling off something amazing and tynan did most of it himself beforehand sure tynan is a bit like rolf at times but he still strives for great things for his game the current wurm dev team just doesnt


When i look at the wurm dev team i see a bunch of guys who would rather say "I am to busy to work on this project sorry" then go "Ya sure il work on it" and then try to make time and be passionate about it and actually get something out at a reasonable pace

Sorry but the current team looks more like a ragtag bunch of server admins for a dead game then head devs in charge of developing the game this isnt just aimed at 1 person or whatever(and thus not bashing an individual dev) this is just how i see it
You guys and girls? have promised us countless things and have given us hundreds of reasons and thousands of delays over the years and lately? its all we hear is excuse this promise that halfas attempt here and there never anything concrete
Even when we all yell at you guys to change and get better and you seem to be doing it within 2 months you are right back to your old selves again and to that i have but 1 thing to say

Maybe look at why you are a wurm staff member and look at maybe someone else could do it better or maybe you could do it better if you got some help and invite that help in, Stop being so stubborn and hateful and trying to suppress anger as all it does is spread to others and lead to more and more people leaving instead call out ask for help

You have this community that sticks around even now still(most games would have died before reaching this bad) so ask for help instead of keeping things secret and hidden and refusing to take on more help put up job offerings for volunteers make dev positions that have the prospect of part time pay or contract pay in the future if they show good work, And dont be afraid as every group here has a story about that 1 certain person they know who is a dev who applied who got denied or ignored no matter what group you are part of we all got the same story but dont be afraid  to let that newbie shine

If a person steps forward who shows great promise dont push him away mold him or her where needed show them what area's need filling and see if they can fill those spots sure you will have people like sindusk who are great at their job but really opinionated and want to push for things that just dont work with wurm but again look at his work yes he didnt do it alone but thats not a reason to pull the rug from out of under him
He did a great job with what little time he had on the team no matter how many heads he butted with now imagine if you had not declined some of the ones you did you might have had a few more sindusk skill like(if not better) people over the years do some amazing things
But again dont be afraid to ask for talent and let talent step forward grow your ranks on every aspect its not a bad thing to have a 35 man volunteer dev team that has a dedicated project manager who's sole task is to make sure the staff are doing their job and reaching deadlines even if that pm checks in once a week for a hour or 2-3 even if that pm is someone passionate from the community and gets paid in prem time and sb with some extra cash if big projects are delivered to standard and on time
Imagine having a proper structure to your team that is clear and well defined and easy for you and for the community to understand and have a place where people with talent can apply and try to help out where they can
And dont give me that bs of "training a dev takes 6+ months" kinda crap as its not the case at all if a person cant contribute within a few days time they are clearly in over their head its why we have a 90 day trail period where its the new guys task to get familiar with everything and be integrated by the end of it with the assumption that you the new guy are doing your job great by the end of week 1 with little help needed at odd times

Like seriously the smarts and talent is out there but you guys have been to busy on keeping it a gentlemans club and shielding each other from anger from the community where as you should have been focusing on growing the game and growing the team
Hiring a full time dev is expensive yes here in new zealand the rate is on average 29.11 nzd an hour or 75716 a year, Now a dev like that could be assigned on a contract basis where they get given project after project and get paid on time spend on them and product delivered and thus they would see it as a side job and you wont pay out of the behind for it and wurm will benefit from having 1 proper java developer that you can throw at things next to your volunteer team

Anyway going back to the start the 2 main things that are causing wurm's decline are as followed and simple
1. the team is out of touch and refuses to change
2. the gaming community as a whole has shifted away from games like wurm so a lot of players wont like it thus your potential market is small so you really have to try hard to get your name out there(but we arent allowed to help and do so)

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I suggested a carriage idea for the wagoner system. Would be a simple solution, but it fell on deaf ears.

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On 12/8/2019 at 1:43 PM, Eyesgood said:

Sometimes I wonder what would have happened with Wurm had Rolf decided NOT to jack the price of premium way back when.  I know back in 2009 when I started playing, I distinctly remember thinking how awesome it was that I can pay 5 Euro a toon and be able to have more than one so I could experience both crafting and priesting. That was back in the day when $9.95 a month subs were commonplace.   I would venture to say there would be more than 295 in Wurm today had Rolf not done that, which would translate into more income for CC and more players populating the lands of Wurm.  But we will never know now...  They way of almost every game today is to go free-to-play and have a shop for non-pay-to-win items.  CC has neither.  I suggest a NEW MONETARY MODEL for Wurm.  I don't care what it is, so long as it makes Wurm more attractive to new and existing players and more affordable.

 

So ten years ago it was 5 Euro, now it's 8. And you want it be been even less or at least the same as ten years ago? I'm assuming you also want updates and new content and bugfixes, made by devs who have time to give to Wurm on servers that have to be paid for? Do you expect everyone to work for free, just because you don't want to pay $3-4 more a month than you did ten years ago? Has your rent not gone up in ten years? Your salary? The price of food? It has for the rest of the world, including the devs, too. 

 

We have "free" Wurm--WU. That's where people can play who don't want the WO experience or who want control of their own servers, that they have to pay for. 

We can all be sad that prices are higher than ten years ago, but I'd rather support the game I play. That means paying for the subscription to keep at least some paid staff and the servers running. 

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15 minutes ago, NeeNee said:

 

So ten years ago it was 5 Euro, now it's 8. And you want it be been even less or at least the same as ten years ago? I'm assuming you also want updates and new content and bugfixes, made by devs who have time to give to Wurm on servers that have to be paid for? Do you expect everyone to work for free, just because you don't want to pay $3-4 more a month than you did ten years ago? Has your rent not gone up in ten years? Your salary? The price of food? It has for the rest of the world, including the devs, too. 

 

It's not 8 though. It's 8 per toon. You want to play seriously, you need to pay for 2+ toons, plus some more to either have or contribute to a deed. Depending on what you get exactly and how much you can commit at once, you're looking at EUR 15 to EUR 20 per month for average play. That doesn't compare favorably.

 

15 minutes ago, NeeNee said:

We have "free" Wurm--WU. That's where people can play who don't want the WO experience or who want control of their own servers, that they have to pay for. 

We can all be sad that prices are higher than ten years ago, but I'd rather support the game I play. That means paying for the subscription to keep at least some paid staff and the servers running. 

 

You and me supporting it isn't enough. If we want the staff paid and servers running we need other people to support as well. And that's where the financial model comes in. The most expensive monthly fee based MMOs out there are about $15 / EUR 13 a month. That includes a few very big ones, with good marketing departments and financial analysts, who likely have a reasonable idea what they're doing. And that generally gets you the whole game, which one toon in Wurm isn't. That's the price the market as a whole is okay with, and even then only barely - subscription based games as a whole are getting rarer. If Wurm is significantly above that, which at EUR 15 to EUR 20 it is, that's something that needs looking at.

 

 

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Toxic players who hate the game and each other. Toxic players who expend a great deal of effort and money to exploit and screw over as many other players as possible. Toxic players who justify their terrible behavior by saying they have nothing better to do.

 

If you feel attacked by this post, you should probably examine yourself and your behavior.

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1 hour ago, Angelklaine said:

I suggested a carriage idea for the wagoner system. Would be a simple solution, but it fell on deaf ears.

Automatic travel has many potential issues from desync, combat, issues with wagoners getting stuck, disconnections and all such things. 

 

It's not falling on deaf ears, just because it's not in doesn't mean we didn't read your suggestion or consider it. 

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5 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

Automatic travel has many potential issues from desync, combat, issues with wagoners getting stuck, disconnections and all such things. 

 

It's not falling on deaf ears, just because it's not in doesn't mean we didn't read your suggestion or consider it. 

 

Can you give us an example of when suggestions/complaints/etc weren't ignored and were actually addressed? And no, you can't list minor bugs. Only criticisms and ideas concerning mechanics and ideas many people in the community have been begging for since 2010.

Edited by Huntar

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23 minutes ago, Lisimba said:

 

It's not 8 though. It's 8 per toon. You want to play seriously, you need to pay for 2+ toons, plus some more to either have or contribute to a deed. Depending on what you get exactly and how much you can commit at once, you're looking at EUR 15 to EUR 20 per month for average play. That doesn't compare favorably.

 

 

You and me supporting it isn't enough. If we want the staff paid and servers running we need other people to support as well. And that's where the financial model comes in. The most expensive monthly fee based MMOs out there are about $15 / EUR 13 a month. That includes a few very big ones, with good marketing departments and financial analysts, who likely have a reasonable idea what they're doing. And that generally gets you the whole game, which one toon in Wurm isn't. That's the price the market as a whole is okay with, and even then only barely - subscription based games as a whole are getting rarer. If Wurm is significantly above that, which at EUR 15 to EUR 20 it is, that's something that needs looking at.

 

 

Except people asking for 2009 prices are not planning on supporting the game more. They want more toons at the same cost, or less and to sell more silver for real world money. It's completely shady. And it's not required to have more than one toon. You can make up reasons why it is, but it's not. If you can't afford to play more than one, then don't play more than one, instead of demanding Wurm subsidize your hobby. 

 

And as far as games that cost $15 a month go-you might be able to have more than one character, but you can't play both or train both without paying extra, so that argument makes no sense. 

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1 minute ago, NeeNee said:

Except people asking for 2009 prices are not planning on supporting the game more. They want more toons at the same cost, or less and to sell more silver for real world money. It's completely shady.

 

It's not about having current players support the game more, they of course wouldn't. It's about having more people total support it. Even if Wurm gets less money per player, if more people pay, the total amount of money coming in is higher. And in the end that's what really matters if you want staff paid and servers running.

 

1 minute ago, NeeNee said:

 

And it's not required to have more than one toon. You can make up reasons why it is, but it's not.

 

While it is not *mandatory* to have more than one toon, if you only have one toon you're basically playing chess with only half the pieces. It's unrealistic to expect that. If you don't have a priest you're missing out on being able to do magic, and if you only have a priest you're missing out on most of the rest of the game. Just look at how many players have multiple toons.

 

1 minute ago, NeeNee said:

 

If you can't afford to play more than one, then don't play more than one, instead of demanding Wurm subsidize your hobby. 

 

I'm more worried that people just go play something else entirely.

 

1 minute ago, NeeNee said:

And as far as games that cost $15 a month go-you might be able to have more than one character, but you can't play both or train both without paying extra, so that argument makes no sense. 

 

It's what you realistically pay to play the game. It's what people will have in mind when considering whether to stop a subscription, or whether to stop another game and come back and take up playing Wurm again. It's this number that Wurm competes with.

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49 minutes ago, NeeNee said:

instead of demanding Wurm subsidize your hobby. 

 

Ah, but I reckon we should subsidize Wurm despite the massive shortcomings we see in it? That's what your first post ending in "you gotta pay up, hun" awfully sounds like. And considering it sustains a failing business that can already not pay all of its staff, that's pretty appropiate to say.  Eyesgood wagered that it could have more people stuck around, and as Lisimba reiterated, this results in more overall financial support. We don't need your condescending anti consumer rhetoric thinly veiled as an economics 101 to figure out that it needs money to continue.

 Nobody here has a functioning crystal ball to know wether Eyesgood's wager would have come true, but we're not blind to the fact that current modus operandi is failing, so spitballing alternative routes is the best we can do.

Or at least give honest feedback to what would make the game worth the money. Because ultimately it's not our responsibility to make the maintenance and development financially feasible. You may be fine with CCAB running like a charity and a business at the same time, but that's a (quite frankly low) standard that most people won't adhere to and just play something more worth their while.

 

Staff is already not being fully paid in the current status quo that you defend. Practically it sounds like you're the one expecting them to work for free, if you want things to continue as they are.

Edited by Flubb
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1 hour ago, Retrograde said:

Automatic travel has many potential issues from desync, combat, issues with wagoners getting stuck, disconnections and all such things. 

 

It's not falling on deaf ears, just because it's not in doesn't mean we didn't read your suggestion or consider it. 

I understand and agree that it is a system that needs to be developed, just like every other system you've said over the years that cannot be done and then its done overnight by a dev. I.e. Libila on Freedom.

 

The idea of a suggestion is that they require development. Here we are presented with a problem and a suggestion has been given, and frankly we don't want to hear how hard it is to do because that's the point of development.

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2 hours ago, NeeNee said:

 

So ten years ago it was 5 Euro, now it's 8. And you want it be been even less or at least the same as ten years ago? I'm assuming you also want updates and new content and bugfixes, made by devs who have time to give to Wurm on servers that have to be paid for? Do you expect everyone to work for free, just because you don't want to pay $3-4 more a month than you did ten years ago? Has your rent not gone up in ten years? Your salary? The price of food? It has for the rest of the world, including the devs, too. 

 

We have "free" Wurm--WU. That's where people can play who don't want the WO experience or who want control of their own servers, that they have to pay for. 

We can all be sad that prices are higher than ten years ago, but I'd rather support the game I play. That means paying for the subscription to keep at least some paid staff and the servers running. 

 

10 years ago the average MMO sub was around $15 (14.95) and you got multiple toons.  Today most MMO subs are ZERO COST or $10 (9.95) and even more toons. 

10 years ago Wurm was 5EU for a single toon.  Today Wurm is 8EU for a single toon. 

 

See my point now?

Edited by Eyesgood
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11 minutes ago, Eyesgood said:

 

10 years ago the average MMO sub was around $15 (14.95) and you got multiple toons.  Today most MMO subs are ZERO COST or $10 (9.95) and even more toons. 

10 years ago Wurm was 5EU for a single toon.  Today Wurm is 8EU for a single toon. 

 

See my point now?

I don't know a single "good" MMO that is free to play where the free to play extends to more than we have in Wurm, basically a "have a sniff and pay if you like it", they all have limits that make it pretty much pointless to play free.

Then again "good" may be in the eye of the beholder, but I don't think it takes many words to see a quality difference.

I won't denie that there is maybe one or two unicorns out there that are good and free to play without any restrictions, but thats not the majority I believe.

 

I have no idea what Wurm could change, but making it cheaper is a one way adventure - what if it doesn't bring back more people to make up for the loss?

It is easy for us to say "they have to  do this or the game dies!", it's a whole different story for the person who makes the call.

It takes way more changes to make a difference I fear and I don't see the sub price as being THE game changer,

right now it would only cater towards people running a ton of toons to make a RL "profit".

 

Imho for the sake of the argument they could just introduce a regular MMO Account System then instead of making the sub cheaper.

You pay one Account and can make X number of characters on said account, but you can not log them in at the same time.

 

However, I am sure then we have people screaming that it is still impossible to play cause they can't soul call their other char or tend to the fields the same time their other char hogs the forge, reasons to complain will be found.

The most obvious thing that comes to mind - if they introduced such a Account System, people would probably want to merge some of their chars into one account and while it sounds fine - it also shrink CCs income and is no gurantee for more people to sub to the game to make up for it and somehow I think this would take a lot of dev time to implement properly.

 

The only thing I can agree with what has been said is that there is a steady and obvious decline and if nothing is done it wont change until the counter hits zero, but as said... I have no idea what to change, it will probably be a experiment and I don't envie CC for having to figure out which vials to mix and levers to flick.

 

Or maybe we just have to accept the fact that the game at it's core with the grind is just... to niché for todays "norms".

But if they change core mechanics or things that the loyal players like or worked on for years and suddenly you can get 99 skill in whatever skill in weeks instead of years... I am sure anyone can see were that is going.

 

Kinda sucks to stand on the side and only be able to watch and not having a single meaningful idea to contribute that could be the holy grail. :(

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1 hour ago, Eyesgood said:

 

10 years ago the average MMO sub was around $15 (14.95) and you got multiple toons.  Today most MMO subs are ZERO COST or $10 (9.95) and even more toons. 

10 years ago Wurm was 5EU for a single toon.  Today Wurm is 8EU for a single toon. 

 

See my point now?

I am on the fence with you about this. Your average subscription-based mmo, which is the payment model of Wurm, is $15 a month. Wurm is ~18 every 2 months with a nearly non existent cash shop. That leaves it on the subscription model of $9 a month in comparison. FFXI is about the same level, just as old and with the same cash shop limitations, so its a good comparison. Their price structure as per last time I checked was $12.95 a month plus $1 per extra character you wish to make. Granted, you can get more characters for a dollar, but they are nowhere near as useful to have as another character in Wurm. All this should be taken into consideration. A character in Wurm is nowhere near the same as a character anywhere else. Put a priest on the same account and you kill their value.

 

38 minutes ago, Milkdrop said:

I don't know a single "good" MMO that is free to play where the free to play extends to more than we have in Wurm, basically a "have a sniff and pay if you like it", they all have limits that make it pretty much pointless to play free.

Then again "good" may be in the eye of the beholder, but I don't think it takes many words to see a quality difference.

I won't denie that there is maybe one or two unicorns out there that are good and free to play without any restrictions, but thats not the majority I believe.

 

I have no idea what Wurm could change, but making it cheaper is a one way adventure - what if it doesn't bring back more people to make up for the loss?

It is easy for us to say "they have to  do this or the game dies!", it's a whole different story for the person who makes the call.

It takes way more changes to make a difference I fear and I don't see the sub price as being THE game changer,

right now it would only cater towards people running a ton of toons to make a RL "profit".

 

Imho for the sake of the argument they could just introduce a regular MMO Account System then instead of making the sub cheaper.

You pay one Account and can make X number of characters on said account, but you can not log them in at the same time.

 

However, I am sure then we have people screaming that it is still impossible to play cause they can't soul call their other char or tend to the fields the same time their other char hogs the forge, reasons to complain will be found.

The most obvious thing that comes to mind - if they introduced such a Account System, people would probably want to merge some of their chars into one account and while it sounds fine - it also shrink CCs income and is no gurantee for more people to sub to the game to make up for it and somehow I think this would take a lot of dev time to implement properly.

 

The only thing I can agree with what has been said is that there is a steady and obvious decline and if nothing is done it wont change until the counter hits zero, but as said... I have no idea what to change, it will probably be a experiment and I don't envie CC for having to figure out which vials to mix and levers to flick.

 

Or maybe we just have to accept the fact that the game at it's core with the grind is just... to niché for todays "norms".

But if they change core mechanics or things that the loyal players like or worked on for years and suddenly you can get 99 skill in whatever skill in weeks instead of years... I am sure anyone can see were that is going.

 

Kinda sucks to stand on the side and only be able to watch and not having a single meaningful idea to contribute that could be the holy grail.

There are more, better games out there with buy to play models. For example GuildWars has a buy to play system: You pay once and play forever. The cash shop is out there and kinda integral so its hard to use as an example. On the other hand, Archeage Unchained is buy to play 100% and you cannot pay for convenience. The whole cash shop is completely cosmetic, and you cannot even gift things bought with cash to infuse gold into your character. Other than illegal rmt, there is no way to take an edge. There is not even a subscription you could pay for.

 

Both arguments have their merits, but have to be weighted carefully. CCAB is a private for profit company and the moment the game stops being profitable they will can it. No if or buts about it.

 

Personally I think an account system with multiple characters would be viable here. A system similar to what EVE has is an option, where training applies to a single character at a time unless you buy a multi character training thing. In here it could be applied as a multi-prem at a rate of 16e / month for your main and 8e per month for an alt. Otherwise you would need to swap the prem between your two characters, limited by perhaps a cooldown. Maybe you need to wait 24 hours or longer before you can switch prem again.

 

To make this profitable you'd need to introduce a cash shop, mainly because there will be a loss in revenue from priest subscriptions. This cash shop could be limited to certain convenience items (Golden mirrors, cosmetic gear, certain decorations such as vehicle banners or ship sail crests, water tiles, gale potions, etc.) that would boost game revenue.

 

All in all both have solid arguments, we just need to find a happy medium.

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56 minutes ago, Milkdrop said:

Imho for the sake of the argument they could just introduce a regular MMO Account System then instead of making the sub cheaper.

You pay one Account and can make X number of characters on said account, but you can not log them in at the same time.

I would be all over that choice.  If Wurm offered a 10EU a month sub but allowed for 2-3 toons but not allow them to log in at the same time, I think that would be splendid!

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2 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

I understand and agree that it is a system that needs to be developed, just like every other system you've said over the years that cannot be done and then its done overnight by a dev. I.e. Libila on Freedom.

 

The idea of a suggestion is that they require development. Here we are presented with a problem and a suggestion has been given, and frankly we don't want to hear how hard it is to do because that's the point of development.

It's not about cannot be done, and if I've used that language then I apologise. 

 

It's more about the focus and priority and direction at the time of speaking There are a ton of wonderful suggestions, and I spend a considerable amount of time passing them on for review, but it's not always possible to put them in. We have our focus and our goal and we are working as a team towards that.

 

I've been scouring the suggestions board for trait suggestions for a dev to have as much information pending beginning work on the animal husbandry system as possible. The timeframe on this? No clue, it's not even started, could be short turnaround, could be months, could wind up put on the backburner to do more PvP work for the Steam launch. 

 

Hopefully it does come, and we hope a good many of the suggestions come in, I'd like at least a "snap to" direction thing, if not an automatic ride at least focus on using the highway system to make travelling easier. 

 

3 hours ago, Huntar said:

 

Can you give us an example of when suggestions/complaints/etc weren't ignored and were actually addressed? And no, you can't list minor bugs. Only criticisms and ideas concerning mechanics and ideas many people in the community have been begging for since 2010.

There's a lot. 

Affinity complaints led to the new affinity systems

Requests for libila to be added on freedom were fulfilled. 

A ton of things balanced, adjusted or outright crapped before launch because of feedback have happened too

Would it be helpful to add an "implemented" tag on suggestions that wind up in the game? And what about scenarios where something LIKE that is implemented? (i.e. requests to remove all book decay being implemented as no page decay)

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Wurm operates on a specific hierarchy of meaning, with a driving spirit behind it. By my estimations this isnt very well actualized anymore and there may be a lack of understanding on why this worked to start with. Layered on this is that there's a huge variety of complex systems that dont have clear explanation and an extremely non-intuitive method of player interaction. If you're a new player and you put a shovel in your hands you cant dig with it, and just what the hell is that about? As an example. Then, you have this crushing difficulty of effectively invincible monsters practically everywhere and the game is unassailable. I suggest those with sense address the game with the following hierarchical structure:

 

Tier 1:

Conquer the chaos and natural entropy of the world. Roads, towers, mines, passes, wolves and other mundane monsters threatening to the weakest most plentiful, with deadlier stronger monsters regionally a threat. Reshape the land, make your most basic mark. Forage for food and stay hydrated, heal your wounds.

 

Tier 2:

Thrive by building farms, mining resources, crafting clothes and weapons and armor. Tame the wildlife and become masters of the wild, construct a house.

 

Tier 3:

Form a community, pool your resources and help each other live in a higher standard of wealth. Enact trade with other communities leveraged against the wilds of the game world and the breadth of travel. A complex economy akin to early medieval takes place.

 

Tier 5:

War and combat. Fight your rivals, fight those who are mean or sadistic, fight the weak or the divided. Defend or menace those who cant protect themselves, or ply for salvation from a stronger group. 

 

Tier 6: Adventure in this complex world, encounter communities and groups living in this framework and become a master of the systems. Leverage geography, personal skill or a pure strength of spirit to go forth and explore in search of opportunities or experiences. 

 

This is what makes wurm unique. A system of systems, building on and adding to each other with meaning and complexity, with avenues that are primarily down to the ability of the player to find and exploit advantages and weaknesses, and to compete in a cutthroat social dynamic, or a symbiotic community in the same stroke. A game where you can in one day deliver a load of bulk goods to a far flung outpost, and load your friends up on a mission of espionage and subterfuge. 

 

It has been entirely misunderstood and mistreated, and has been abused and neutered. It is a carefully constructed fragile system, and its soul is gone. I do not have faith that this can be won again by this development team, and its scope of issues may be of such a breadth that this final terminal population plunge is a spiral the game cannot recover from. Either by neglect or by agitation, those who cared are now jaded and bitter, those who care may not have the eyes to see what is plainly in front of them, and the rest have been purged.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Retrograde said:

It's not about cannot be done, and if I've used that language then I apologise. 

 

It's more about the focus and priority and direction at the time of speaking There are a ton of wonderful suggestions, and I spend a considerable amount of time passing them on for review, but it's not always possible to put them in. We have our focus and our goal and we are working as a team towards that.

 

I've been scouring the suggestions board for trait suggestions for a dev to have as much information pending beginning work on the animal husbandry system as possible. The timeframe on this? No clue, it's not even started, could be short turnaround, could be months, could wind up put on the backburner to do more PvP work for the Steam launch. 

 

Hopefully it does come, and we hope a good many of the suggestions come in, I'd like at least a "snap to" direction thing, if not an automatic ride at least focus on using the highway system to make travelling easier. 

I get that. I understand Steam is the priority right now. But here is the thing, you guys will be touting steam for the most part of half a year to a year and then release it, and then work one one specific thing for the most part of the second half of the year and release it. And that's your development schedule. So a whole year goes by and what will we get? A couple new colored flower pots, cave farming (different shape flowerpot) and a hitching post. And nothing else. The current playerbase has no use for a steam release as we are already playing. The steam release does nothing for our population, our servers, our enjoyment. All it does is more revenue for the company, so it taking the majority of the development does nothing for the current playerbase.

 

Things WE want: New UI, Bugfixes, advertising, Golden Mirrors, new systems, new content... 

 

Things devs are working on: Steam release that does nothing for us.

 

Content. Content is big. Everyone has touted a new hunting server for years on end. Instead you gave us a half baked temporary server we cant even farm or skill up at because the skill transfer is mediocre, with literally nothing at the end of the grind to look forward to. Even that Stronghold was half baked. A team of 10 chaos players can do much better in a week without developer tools. Devs have dev tools and months to come up with that. You could had released a server the size of deliverance that you cant drop deeds in and with x10 the mob respawn rate, would had taken you 1/1000 of the dev hours it took you to do Jackal, and everyone would had been immensely happier. Hell, you can probably do that right now in an hour.

 

Listen to your players, bud. Players know what they want and they have been telling you for years. Its definetely falling on deaf ears and it shows when you release stuff like Jackal, which seems more like my character ate too many sleep powders than anything resembling an adventure.

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50 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

I get that. I understand Steam is the priority right now. But here is the thing, you guys will be touting steam for the most part of half a year to a year and then release it, and then work one one specific thing for the most part of the second half of the year and release it. And that's your development schedule. So a whole year goes by and what will we get? A couple new colored flower pots, cave farming (different shape flowerpot) and a hitching post. And nothing else. The current playerbase has no use for a steam release as we are already playing. The steam release does nothing for our population, our servers, our enjoyment. All it does is more revenue for the company, so it taking the majority of the development does nothing for the current playerbase.

 

Things WE want: New UI, Bugfixes, advertising, Golden Mirrors, new systems, new content... 

 

Things devs are working on: Steam release that does nothing for us.

 

Content. Content is big. Everyone has touted a new hunting server for years on end. Instead you gave us a half baked temporary server we cant even farm or skill up at because the skill transfer is mediocre, with literally nothing at the end of the grind to look forward to. Even that Stronghold was half baked. A team of 10 chaos players can do much better in a week without developer tools. Devs have dev tools and months to come up with that. You could had released a server the size of deliverance that you cant drop deeds in and with x10 the mob respawn rate, would had taken you 1/1000 of the dev hours it took you to do Jackal, and everyone would had been immensely happier. Hell, you can probably do that right now in an hour.

 

Listen to your players, bud. Players know what they want and they have been telling you for years. Its definetely falling on deaf ears and it shows when you release stuff like Jackal, which seems more like my character ate too many sleep powders than anything resembling an adventure.

Okay so there's a few things here:

50 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

A couple new colored flower pots, cave farming (different shape flowerpot) and a hitching post. And nothing else.

Dismissing cave farming (which is a hugely requested feature for a long time) as "just a different shape flowerpot) is trivialising the amount of dev work involved and the players keen to see it coming. It also overlooks everything else discussed:

Sail furling (a long requested suggestion again) 

Smoother movement (A huge QoL thing) 

UI (showcased in several VI's)

Combat system improvements (Discussed at length in many streams)

Loyalty system overhaul (mentioned on forums and discussed in streams) 

Bugfixes (always ongoing) 

 

Steam is the goal, but don't get us wrong, we could launch wurm on Steam tomorrow, there's nothing stopping us. What we are doing is improving all facets of Wurm with polish before dumping additional content in, which again will be coming prior to the Steam update most likely)

 

50 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

Content. Content is big. Everyone has touted a new hunting server for years on end. Instead you gave us a half baked temporary server we cant even farm or skill up at because the skill transfer is mediocre, with literally nothing at the end of the grind to look forward to. Even that Stronghold was half baked. A team of 10 chaos players can do much better in a week without developer tools. Devs have dev tools and months to come up with that. You could had released a server the size of deliverance that you cant drop deeds in and with x10 the mob respawn rate, would had taken you 1/1000 of the dev hours it took you to do Jackal, and everyone would had been immensely happier. Hell, you can probably do that right now in an hou

I understand you just don't like jackal, that's fine, I'm not going to try convince you otherwise because it's pointless. What you are missing in your dislike is the opportunities it offers. Adding another server with mobs to run around and kill adds nothing at all, limiting deeds doesnt even add much complexity, and most players don't even bother hunting because combat offers little point. 

 

What jackal does offer is tactical combat, a purpose for adventuring and fighting, and also rewards for doing so. In your dismissal of it you overlooked the awesome group of people who are having the time of their lives on it because it provides PvE incentives to work together against common enemies and achieve goals. 

 

Yes the stronghold is ugly, it's a series of walls that break and spawn rifts, it's simple in its design but we arent looking for a hugely defended deed that requires PvP raiding. 

 

Round 1 of Jackal had issues, I'd say the skill system and transfer struggled in its execution and  expectancies, but you are stomping your feed demanding something when Jackal has the seeds to be all of that. Combat that's actually challenging, rewards for fighting, common goals without promoting any competition, instead rewarding cooperation. 

 

It also gives us a platform to mix things up, maybe next round will be full skill crossing and regular skill rates, maybe priests will be disabled, maybe only bandages will heal or mobs will be tougher. It's challenge for PvE, and we intend on each round being vastly different.

 

Wanting a server with just 10x more mobs and no deeds is boring, think bigger.

 

P.S. if you want a hunting server just come to Pristine and don't deed:

H3IVs3N.jpg

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

Dismissing cave farming (which is a hugely requested feature for a long time) as "just a different shape flowerpot) is trivialising the amount of dev work involved and the players keen to see it coming. It also overlooks everything else discussed:

Sail furling (a long requested suggestion again) 

Smoother movement (A huge QoL thing) 

UI (showcased in several VI's)

Combat system improvements (Discussed at length in many streams)

Loyalty system overhaul (mentioned on forums and discussed in streams) 

Bugfixes (always ongoing) 

 

Steam is the goal, but don't get us wrong, we could launch wurm on Steam tomorrow, there's nothing stopping us. What we are doing is improving all facets of Wurm with polish before dumping additional content in, which again will be coming prior to the Steam update most likely)

 

You're missing the point. Promises are not reality. You can -say- you're working on all these nice things, but until they are released they don't count. So you cannot use them as an example of what has been done because it is not done yet. Its good to know something is being worked on, but Golden Mirrors and the cash shop has been in development for years, and still nothing.

 

28 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

I understand you just don't like jackal, that's fine, I'm not going to try convince you otherwise because it's pointless. What you are missing in your dislike is the opportunities it offers. Adding another server with mobs to run around and kill adds nothing at all, limiting deeds doesnt even add much complexity, and most players don't even bother hunting because combat offers little point. 

 

What jackal does offer is tactical combat, a purpose for adventuring and fighting, and also rewards for doing so. In your dismissal of it you overlooked the awesome group of people who are having the time of their lives on it because it provides PvE incentives to work together against common enemies and achieve goals. 

 

Yes the stronghold is ugly, it's a series of walls that break and spawn rifts, it's simple in its design but we arent looking for a hugely defended deed that requires PvP raiding. 

 

Round 1 of Jackal had issues, I'd say the skill system and transfer struggled in its execution and  expectancies, but you are stomping your feed demanding something when Jackal has the seeds to be all of that. Combat that's actually challenging, rewards for fighting, common goals without promoting any competition, instead rewarding cooperation. 

 

It also gives us a platform to mix things up, maybe next round will be full skill crossing and regular skill rates, maybe priests will be disabled, maybe only bandages will heal or mobs will be tougher. It's challenge for PvE, and we intend on each round being vastly different.

 

Wanting a server with just 10x more mobs and no deeds is boring, think bigger.

qDMRtgY.png

I am sure those 5 people playing on Jackal right now are having a blast and are the unbiased example of the success of the server. 

 

This is the problem. You cover your eyes and pretend everything is all right. You refuse to admit that a population of 5 a couple months after release on the newest and most hyped server is a total failure. You look at this as a success and tout it as such. And as long as you continue to be this blind to the reality and this tone deaf to your community, you will not get ahead.

 

It isn't me who you need to convince about the greatness of this endeavor. Its the other 188 people that are logged in right now and the millions of potential players not playing the game. Of the 7.53 billion people in this planet today, only 5 are playing Jackal right now. Jackal has less people than any other server. Its not a success.

Edited by Angelklaine
Fixing a rather offensive typo.
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9 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

I am sure those 5 people playing on Jackal right now are having a blast and are the unbiased example of the success of the server. 

 

The stronghold doesn't open for a few more days. Most beacons are found. 

 

It's been good but now it's a waiting game. 

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45 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

The stronghold doesn't open for a few more days. Most beacons are found. 

 

It's been good but now it's a waiting game. 

Sorry but this sounds like an excuse its been a steady low player count since the first time skill transfer was added heck a week before that actually from 1 day to the next we saw a pop drop from 200+ to 50 average after skill transfer down to 10-15 sometimes a bit more but most of the time its low as hell

It is not a success if there is only a high player count during specific peaks it would be a success if the player count was high period

As for hunting server ya no we dont need it with the way animals are now on every server we got plenty to hunt(come to cele if you dont believe me)
Also a price drop on its own wont really do much id rather have more different things i could purchase first things that are worthwhile and once that becomes a steady income then drop the price of prem potentially or make prem purchase more worth it ingame and keep the price the same for example while prem 1s is paid to upkeep instantly so anyone living with a 1s a month deed gets free upkeep im sure that would shut up those few who complain about wurm being "too expensive"

Anyway i have a question referral system when? we used to have one and it was scrapped as "no one used it" was the attitude but i wouldnt mind slapping a referral link here and there while talking about wurm on random posts(like i do from time to time) or as forum signatures ;) it would also be a great way to measure where your new players come from and who is actively helping spread the word

Oh oh another more funny question when can we get the feature of holding our beloved signs in our hands and have the text be readable? ;)

Edited by wipeout

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I previously advocated for a hunter server, and I have been able to travel much more since then, my views have changed.

 

There are mobs EVERYWHERE.  The smaller islands have significant concentrations.  There is 250 hunter mobs for every online player on Indy on average - higher during low times.  I would be numb after 250.  My gear would be shot.

 

I might just suck as a hunter, but I cannot reliably hunt for particular beasts.  Its a crapshoot.  Sometimes I LIKE that... there I am... gutting a croc... oh hai troll... where the hell did you come from?!

 

I have camped out a corpse to see it they actually did attract some predators.  Maybe I am not being patient enough... but really why wait... just keep moving - they are everywhere.

 

If I hunt deer... check the woods, check the water, check a few inches of grasslands, check the tundra... nata.

 

Goblins are cute.  Heard they attack in groups?  That would be a new experience. (I AM happy the spawn rates have gone up on them).

 

I can regularly find crocs in the desert, and all manner of hell creatures.  Reasonable enough. I keep expecting to see more at waters edge, or near marshes.

One time I sailed up on a manmade island... approx. 50x50... some 30 crocs were on it.  Was fun.  There was deed loot there!

 

I can reliably find cows, and unicorns in the woods.

 

Spiders, spiders, every where.

 

I only want to see more wild horses when I am walking.  Other than that.. they make sense to not find too easily.

 

Sheep and bison... these seem reasonable to me.  I can reliably expect to find them on a steppe - unless it is overrun with the burning ones, or crocs.  Clear them out... come back in a day or so... sometimes less = sheep and sometimes bison.

 

I presume the healing resistance changes are affecting my hunting experience now.  Definitely have to think it out before diving in on some heavier hitters.  Before that, I could just barrel roll right through a cluster of whatever without much pre-thought.  Either that or some other stats have been adjusted I am unaware of.

 

TLDR;

Maybe I just suck as a hunter and it has all gone over my head.

I don't want a hunter server, I want the animals to behave differently.  I want to learn HOW an animal behaves, and hunt it.  I hunt this one for sport, this one because it has the tastiest hooves this side of the Inner Sea, this one I run from and hope to survive.  I don't want to have a sword fight with a pig -- I'd rather just slaughter it.  I keep expecting other docile animals to escape while I am killing its friend, but they wait in line instead.  Now, I accept this is not a hunting simulation - so, I do appreciate that it has to be faked instead.

 

But, as it is, it just doesn't FEEL right.  I would not like a hunting server if the experience is the same.

 

 

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