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Actuarius

Crop rotation - And more Crop sinks

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Why not have a mineral depletion system for farm land?  Slowly replaced over time or through fertilizer. Crop rotation would be a thing.  Might be good to affect results for Forage/Botanize as well.   Multiple different minerals could be depleted.  Perhaps adding these minerals and vitamins to prepared foods too - vitamin / mineral deficiency anyone?  Scurvy? Other Diseases? They didn't call the English Limeys for no reason. 

Meat sinks.  WAY too much meat in the game.  Thoughts on wild animals not dropping meat, or at min, reducing considerably?  Boosting meat from farmed animals

 

I'm also not keen on what the animal consumption rates for food are..   Perhaps this could be increased making more sinks for food items?  Animal death - shouldn't animals die a bit.. more?  The care for dynamic keeping animals alive - why is this in place?.  Should this be changed? 

 

Preface:  Noodling about the economy and lack of sinks.  Maybe this isn't what the majority of Wurmians want for their game, and if that's the case, that's cool :)    I assume because I want it, that most others do to.  Is anyone against such ideas, and if so whats the reasoning? Not attacking, just curious.  Different folks, different strokes tis all.  Looking for ways to boost work needed.  Lets reduce Newb unemployment rates.

 

 

Edited by Actuarius

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No - if I want corn of garlic.. I want them for a reason.. potatoes wont do the same, it's how game works.. that's why people farm wemp/garlic/corn or w/e and just that.. because there's a reason to go for 1 thing they need or want to use/sell

Not planning to be a pig farmer to make bacon pizzas.. multiply that by ... variety of meats.. and wild meats are quite some variety to quit for no replacement/reason/.

 

no - if I need a horse today.. because last one died for the LULz.. I need it today.. tomorrow I'll still need that new horse.. guess what.. I need to wait around a month to get it.. if I plan to do it on my own so.. hell no to more creature deaths

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This will work for crops if there was a benefit to changing them... rather than just flat reducing and pissing off everybody for no reason... but than if you get 5-10 more yield per tile by rotating crops... market is going to stock up even more with time.

Creatures.. are broken as they are.. breeding new horse gives you a -1/0 or 1 new horse in what was it 7 or 9 days to 14 days ? than you have to wait for it to grow up..... terrible mechanic with that IRL days waiting

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Thanks for the feedback.  It's taking me a bit but.. perhaps my idea of fun just isn't the same for the majority of Wurm's player base.  My perspective is mine alone and that of a new player:  Very little interaction between older players needing newer players for anything.  I'm guessing most deeds are few in number don't need to recruit new players for any economic, or survival reason.  The amount of survival and/or economic pressure to work as a group is.. Well I'm not finding it.  Maybe why Jackal is enticing to many.  

 

This is important to know, as future development should surely cater to the majority, and not the minority.  I really need to ponder more on how much personal time I want to invest into a game that may not be going in the same direction where my interests would lie.  And this is completely ok;  I am just having a hard time figuring out what that direction actually is for Wurm.

 

Cheers!

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If you're new.. you'll do it on your own.. or buy from older/well stocked player/, than you'll become a older player.. and have the same issues.. no reason to trade with other FARMERS...........

 

sell to people who can't be bothered to farm, but need farmed products, being raw or processed, ropes, squares, sugar, veggies.. 

 

It's not that hard to find a cook who won't bother farming and will be buying 5-10-15,000 of variety of veggies to use.

 

No economic pressure.. I do not play on the market for example.

 

I guess... if the many are happy.. you'll have less angry faces to look at or listen to.. like with underground farming feature.. makes no sense.. but, I think somebody combined hitching pole and such underground farm plot.. making great underground grazing place for your mount if you have a deed/house in a cave.(unsure if that actually work, but read something like that.. hope it does...)

Conveniences let you be a bit more care-free, wurm is mostly casual once you deed up.. you get the freedom what to do with your time, there are action packed games and games where you can chill.. I'd call pve wurm the latter and that is a good thing.

 

If you like the game but can't figure how to spend your time in it.. maybe try to join one of the open villages, some deeds look for new people to join them.. you'll get to do either whatever you want to do, or could share common projects/goals being buildings, terraforming, tunneling, market shenanigans etc..

 

I started with shipbuilding -> needed better wood/cutting;  had low ql tools -> started blacksmithing -> needed better ql iron -> eventually this gets you bored.. you start some armorsmithing/weaponsmithing/branch out the carpentry skills if you want a wagon(45 fine carpentry) etc... depends what you want to be able to do, or do in general. For me the skill grinds only allow me to do what I want/need when I need it for myself or somebody I'd like to help.

If marketing your skills or time interests you.. you can relatively quickly get 1 skill to 90.. than you'll have faster action timers, better success rate, etc.. maybe need a tool or few with WoA/BoTD and to be high ql.. but you'll me a master of some craft.. and able to print out some "junk" items; everybody goes the same path. You do not have to be 10-20-30x skilled at 90 level.. it have never been this easy to grind.. if that's your plan.. you could easily reach that goal also in fraction of the time it took other people.

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27 minutes ago, Finnn said:

If you're new.. you'll do it on your own.. or buy from older/well stocked player/, than you'll become a older player.. and have the same issues.. no reason to trade with other FARMERS...........

 

sell to people who can't be bothered to farm, but need farmed products, being raw or processed, ropes, squares, sugar, veggies.. 

 

It's not that hard to find a cook who won't bother farming and will be buying 5-10-15,000 of variety of veggies to use.

 

No economic pressure.. I do not play on the market for example.

 

I guess... if the many are happy.. you'll have less angry faces to look at or listen to.. like with underground farming feature.. makes no sense.. but, I think somebody combined hitching pole and such underground farm plot.. making great underground grazing place for your mount if you have a deed/house in a cave.(unsure if that actually work, but read something like that.. hope it does...)

Conveniences let you be a bit more care-free, wurm is mostly casual once you deed up.. you get the freedom what to do with your time, there are action packed games and games where you can chill.. I'd call pve wurm the latter and that is a good thing.

 

If you like the game but can't figure how to spend your time in it.. maybe try to join one of the open villages, some deeds look for new people to join them.. you'll get to do either whatever you want to do, or could share common projects/goals being buildings, terraforming, tunneling, market shenanigans etc..

 

I started with shipbuilding -> needed better wood/cutting;  had low ql tools -> started blacksmithing -> needed better ql iron -> eventually this gets you bored.. you start some armorsmithing/weaponsmithing/branch out the carpentry skills if you want a wagon(45 fine carpentry) etc... depends what you want to be able to do, or do in general. For me the skill grinds only allow me to do what I want/need when I need it for myself or somebody I'd like to help.

If marketing your skills or time interests you.. you can relatively quickly get 1 skill to 90.. than you'll have faster action timers, better success rate, etc.. maybe need a tool or few with WoA/BoTD and to be high ql.. but you'll me a master of some craft.. and able to print out some "junk" items; everybody goes the same path. You do not have to be 10-20-30x skilled at 90 level.. it have never been this easy to grind.. if that's your plan.. you could easily reach that goal also in fraction of the time it took other people.

One option not mentioned is the middle man - the flipper, the transporter, the fixer. That's the sort of role I tend to gravitate to, and I'm scratching my head as to why this hasn't emerged in this sandbox, yet so prevalent in others. This could also be a result of the low influx of new players,  and the only players left are like yourself - chill pve Wurm players content to build on their deed.  Somewhat sad this isn't the case but perhaps Wurm's just not the game I thought it was.  Or more importantly - is not going to be.  

 

Cheers Finn, appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions.  Its been a pleasure.

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One half-filled fsb will sustain multiple people for IRL years.

There is no need to grow crops reguarly.

It feels a bit weird.

 

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Having spent the past 13years with an organic farmer/gardener, and composting, I'd still like to be able to put manure on my fields to make it feel more realistic.

I remember in my early days I thought seasons mattered also.

I'd like to see that aswell, having to feed the animals during the five days of winter.

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Had a long really long chatt with Tish ages ago about this. Back when she worked with changing permission.

If we still had her with us she maybe had started to work with changing farming.

She wanted us only to be able to grow difrent crops on difrent times and nothing on winter at all.

I told her me and many else would have bad thoughts about it. And I hoped that she never made it happed.

Today I still hope non make it happend.

Dont change whats not broken, there is work to do (im sure) on other stuff that need it instead.

 

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To clarify a point - while this post is about a specific idea - crop rotation, and more item sinks regarding food, ultimately, I'd like to see more consumption requiring more production.  There is very little point in producing anything in the game.  Technically, you don't need to eat anything but foraged material to keep from dying going hungry.  It perplexes me why there is all this great horizontal breadth surrounding farming, but no use for all the different items produced.  Wurm..  seems to have all this potential for a great life simulator and chooses to end up as a handyman's fantasy paradise - buildings and roads everywhere yet no one to live in them.

 

Its almost as if..  No one wants to be required to do anything in the game - they want everything as an option - eating, feeding animals, sleeping, fighting, building, fishing, are all options - everything being an option results in no economy of purpose - no reason to produce for others.   The  immersion, at-least for me, is broken once this is realized.  I would state, for new players coming into the game, if you would like to make Bavarian villages with ornaments and roads leading to others of like, join up.  If you want purpose to live in the world other then to look at things, then, well, you might never find it.

 

This isn't necessarily a bad thing - I'm more surprised that many (if not most?) want it to be this way.  As long as the game caters to its majority I suppose its functioning as intended. It might just be, however, the games remaining majority directing the game is a minority in the gaming/sandbox community.  Under-stably those who reply to a forum post may not be the majority - I suppose some sort of randomized poling would be needed to identify what the majority wants.

 

Regardless - What Wurm has so far is "fun"  or atleast has been fun.  But its somewhat of a blue pill paradise - requiring imagination only to drive your motivation.  

Edited by Actuarius
dying strike through

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More consumption would be good... 

If I make food, it decays too fast, and so I don't even bother making it... just 'refresh' myself occasionally.  If I could make larger quantities that wouldn't decay before I ate them, even if it used significantly more materials, I'd be ok with that.

 

JS

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17 hours ago, griper said:

One half-filled fsb will sustain multiple people for IRL years.

There is no need to grow crops reguarly.

It feels a bit weird.

Higher ql food ingredients and better cooking skill.. will result better cooked food, feeding more and faster with less of it's size.. lasting you for even longer...
Depends how much you farm, storage is pretty big if you count the smaller on volume bits in it.. While sugar beets takes a ton of space.. or certain fish types.. could easily fill up an fsb.. compared to else stored thousands of crops...

I do not mind pushing myself for week/s-month to get certain crop count that feels right to last me for a while.. the reason I do it is to NOT do it later or constantly...

Before bsb/fsb/crates used to lose -5% volume every month, which just demotivates you from hoarding, or motivates you to sell faster.. else you just lose your time and work with time.. The more you have.. the more you lose.. 'fun'..

Almost sure whoever feels this is fun could just ditch a fsb/bsb/crate offdeed and watch it's content fade.. 5% volume a month..

 

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Crates and Bulk storage almost feels like I am cheating at the game.  I was ecstatic once I discovered how they worked, and grinded the body strength just to load.  I live off-deed in a cart crammed into a ship.  I make me some billy goat gruff and seal it in a barrel.  I can eat for weeks off one barrel.  I voluntarily live under the threat of decay.  It is how I play, but completely understand that is not how most others play.  This is my sandbox.

 

Relative to crops, mining ore is difficult.  Digging out a hole in a mountain, searching for the vein you want, discerning the quality, then extraction and transportation.  A lot skills involved, and generally a good deal of effort.  The finished metals industry is second probably only to rare finds/drops, and enchanting.  The effort seems reasonable in that regard, and generally we all accept this!  Grinding crops/cooking is much less demanding in comparison, and can be completed with less tools, and danger.  It is also one of the first things many players begin doing, and wonder... how can I sell this?

 

We accept that certain harvestables are only available at certain times (maple syrup, fruits, nuts), and even only through lucky finds (rice, cocoa).  We even have grapes that only grow in certain hemispheres!  But these products are for niche markets.  If I understand correctly, certain trees prefer certain biomes, and likewise certain creatures.  It is quite difficult to discern that.  EVERY tree is everywhere... even all types of creatures seems everywhere - except perhaps for whatever one you are looking for.

 

I have tried to theorize what would happen if you made on-deed farms produce more than off-deed.  QL based on skill and tending.  Or if you allowed certain crops to produce more in "season" but less (not none) in off season.  Or simply had an expiration of several seasons to bulk storage of ALL raw goods.

 

What I keep coming back to... is that SO many other systems would have to change (village sacc, cooking and grinding cooking, etc), and even separating production crops like cotton and wemp, or else you hamstring too many players at once.  I really enjoy the theory of virtual economics, but I believe we are so far deep in certain systems - that even small changes to some of them might be catastrophic.

 

add-

As far as the middle-man goes, again this me making ###### up, it probably has to do with frequency of sales.   If it is more profitable for me to continue producing - then I pay someone else to deliver.   If I get a sale once every few weeks - bet I am closing that sale myself!

Edited by Arishok
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I don't think any established farmer would be overjoyed at the prospect of seasonal crops.  Basically, it's less convenient.  They could not fill customers' large request orders promptly.  They'd also grumble at crop rotation.  Again, it's inconvenient, and customers won't understand and don't like to be kept waiting.  Some customers have been known to order 10, 20, 30 or even 50k of their chosen crop(s) at a time, and don't generally like to wait more than a week.

 

If these ideas were implemented, of course the established farmer would adapt, and would be in the best position to adapt, but the newer player might not.

 

Imagine yourself as a new player - simply by chance and poor timing - starting the game in autumn and finding that none of your foraged crops will grow?  You won't have had all spring and summer to build up a supply of food to get you or your animals through your first winter. 

 

Imagine placing your first deed - a big moment - only to find it is already mineral depleted land and useless without spending out on fertiliser.

 

I'm not ruling out your interesting ideas, you show a genuine passion for the game.  We do however, have to think about the kinds of players these ideas would impact upon the most.   Someone would have to put in a number of fail-safe and warning systems so that new players did not starve in their first week, or naively pay out for useless land.

 

Caring for animals is one of the big draws in this game - a LOT of players play only for, or mostly for, this element of the game, and it attracts a certain kind of reliable PvE player, who will happily keep paying their deeds' upkeeps to see all their animals every day.  I have known players completely quit the game and let their deed disband because their one favourite animal died.  If we cannot empathise with this kind of player, then we're basically writing off a main core of players who are probably keeping the PvE servers running.

 

I would love to hear more of your ideas, as we need this kind of creative input.  For every idea there will be counter-arguments, and there needs to be.  We need a continual ideas exchange in order to find a balance of new experiences within the context of the existing one.

 

Edited by Muse
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