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Actuarius

How come Player Driven Transport services never took off?

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Quite curious on this.  I know with Wagoneers the ability to do so has been ripped out of any aspiring transporter.  I'm assuming the Wagoneers came about because no one ever created such a shipping service for bulk goods?  Why is that?  What were the hurdles?  Certainly some sort of game mechanic could be developed to keep people from ripping each other off. (Insurance or Escrow accounts?)

 

Also. Mailing items..  Why is that here?  Isn't it more "Wurmy" to get out and travel to a market?  

 

These game mechanics seem to reinforce the hermit lifestyle.  Never a need to leave your Deed.

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Selph had a delivery business in 2017 and several people thought it was a good idea. His ideas can be found here:

 

Your point about mailing items is interesting. It is very easy for those with businesses and those buyers who want 'instant' trades but as you intimated it can reinforce a 'hermit' mentality. I also play on a WU server where the owner quite deliberately prevents the mailing of items for this reason. If a player wants to buy or sell then they have to travel or meet at some mid-point. We have also had many auctions that creates community interaction as well as having some market days. I would suggest to you that the main difference is that the server is promoted as 'light role-play' and the players usually enjoy the boisterous interaction whereas Wurm has to cater to all types. 

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I read Selph's thread.  No mention as to why he closed shop.  What WU server is this you speak?

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The server is Mystic Highlands- I just did not want to advertise in a non-WU section unless asked directly!

 

It has its own thread in the PvE Wurm Unlimited section of this forum.

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In WU there are also mods that some people use to generate trade. So merchants that buy your products, others that make things for you to purchase.

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3 hours ago, Actuarius said:

Quite curious on this.  I know with Wagoneers the ability to do so has been ripped out of any aspiring transporter.  I'm assuming the Wagoneers came about because no one ever created such a shipping service for bulk goods?  Why is that?  What were the hurdles?  Certainly some sort of game mechanic could be developed to keep people from ripping each other off. (Insurance or Escrow accounts?)

 

Also. Mailing items..  Why is that here?  Isn't it more "Wurmy" to get out and travel to a market?  

 

These game mechanics seem to reinforce the hermit lifestyle.  Never a need to leave your Deed.

problem is no have or not service, problem is almost everybody have boats/carts/wagons but nobody want leave the deed for trade, also there is the alts making many things at same time (like finish 1k bricks in like 3hs), also most deliver are "free" and who charge lost the sold because is cheaper find somebody else who made it for free.
Probably moving lots of players/alts could be a interesting thing but can easily fixed adding the feature to wagoner and/or passeger wagon

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Why do you think priest teleportation is unreliable?

People.

You need them at the right time and place where it's convenient for you.. unless you're willing to pay for half the trip you had planned... The other thing .. today you find XXXX guy, tomorrow it's YYYY girl and both teleport you to different locations.. it's extra work to figure your location and path to where you wanted to go, time time time.. all that time could be spend playing the game, instead of solving problems you shouldn't have fallen into in the first place.

 

As for delivery jobs.. there have been a few people doing that before.. even before the creature crates mostly deliveries were done to shore line.. rarely inland if that required sailing.. as wagons take quite some space in boats.. and than you need mounts to pull them and not to get killed by troll/hound pack while you deliver in maybe.. unknown parts of the map for you.. again you need community map and to rely on it to find your destination, how much do you charge for your time doing all this? could be 30min or half a day adventure with good or bad ending. #RNG

 

With creature crates.. it's still a lot of work to load a wagon, 4x creature crates?!?!?!?!, and crates with the goods you're supposed to deliver.. a bit of a stretch with same issues above.

 

That's where highway system comes... it mostly kills the off-server trades in bulk, but they still happen, it's carefree to receive your goods on your server by a person from same server using the wagoner.. convenience.. qol.. call it however you want..

 

Mailing system used to charge .10 silver per sent item, now it's 0.01; before it was a bit more convenient/cheaper/ to go to a market and buy items there.. than spend on wurm pigeons.

Markets are... another time dump, filtering on your own through all the merchants and items on them.. different QL/enchants/rarities/imbues.. etc.. compared to... having a crafter/priest to call and ask for specific ql, enchant directly.. and using the mailing system to keep everybody happy.

 

Some deals on merchants are a living robbery.. well both ways.. cheap or expensive compared to 'regular' pricing, if you feel lucky, you can always go and lurk around merchants to find such 'gem' offers.

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On 11/25/2019 at 7:46 PM, Finnn said:

Why do you think priest teleportation is unreliable?

People.

You need them at the right time and place where it's convenient for you.. unless you're willing to pay for half the trip you had planned... The other thing .. today you find XXXX guy, tomorrow it's YYYY girl and both teleport you to different locations.. it's extra work to figure your location and path to where you wanted to go, time time time.. all that time could be spend playing the game, instead of solving problems you shouldn't have fallen into in the first place.

 

As for delivery jobs.. there have been a few people doing that before.. even before the creature crates mostly deliveries were done to shore line.. rarely inland if that required sailing.. as wagons take quite some space in boats.. and than you need mounts to pull them and not to get killed by troll/hound pack while you deliver in maybe.. unknown parts of the map for you.. again you need community map and to rely on it to find your destination, how much do you charge for your time doing all this? could be 30min or half a day adventure with good or bad ending. #RNG

 

With creature crates.. it's still a lot of work to load a wagon, 4x creature crates?!?!?!?!, and crates with the goods you're supposed to deliver.. a bit of a stretch with same issues above.

 

That's where highway system comes... it mostly kills the off-server trades in bulk, but they still happen, it's carefree to receive your goods on your server by a person from same server using the wagoner.. convenience.. qol.. call it however you want..

 

Mailing system used to charge .10 silver per sent item, now it's 0.01; before it was a bit more convenient/cheaper/ to go to a market and buy items there.. than spend on wurm pigeons.

Markets are... another time dump, filtering on your own through all the merchants and items on them.. different QL/enchants/rarities/imbues.. etc.. compared to... having a crafter/priest to call and ask for specific ql, enchant directly.. and using the mailing system to keep everybody happy.

 

Some deals on merchants are a living robbery.. well both ways.. cheap or expensive compared to 'regular' pricing, if you feel lucky, you can always go and lurk around merchants to find such 'gem' offers.

remember the guys selling teleport for 1s each on indy event (to get the dragonfang thing)

 

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"lovely" pay what 13 euro to get a virtual indy tiny table rock?

Could have been on the web shop instead to help the game.

Or we could have given a chance the idea for alliance teleports but no, that sounds so much better right, gg, well enjoy what you voted/asked for🤔

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There are a few throughout the years who did delivery services some even had their threads up on the forum quite often near the top they where actively used even today there are still a few around and they advertise their services from time to time and they deliver to every server everywhere its just with such low pop count it is rare that services like that are needed now days :(

The thing is the few who are around they only do big orders as there is no sense going to the middle of xanadu for 10k mats but they will go to the middle of xan to deliver 50+k of mats

Edited by wipeout

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17 hours ago, Finnn said:

Or we could have given a chance the idea for alliance teleports but no, that sounds so much better right, gg, well enjoy what you voted/asked for🤔

We definitely could have, but no-one wanted it because it was brokenly overpowered.

 

The order size really is the driving factor; no-one wants to earn 10c for 2 hours work when they could be selling their own bulk in that time for 10x the price.

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I live on an island, the Wagoneer system is irrelevant to me. Usually when I buy stuff it's out of convenience. Like if I need bulk materials and dont want to spend my limited free time on them then I'll just buy them, with delivery included. The people doing the delivery by boat usually use an alt for that, so they can still do something productive with their main. In those cases there is no real advantage to using a third party for the transportation.

 

As for mailbox pricing. Several times I've simply made a new alt, spawned it at a marketplace, had it mail an item to my main for whatever amount of silver I need and then I buy stuff with said alt, invite alt to my village, teleport him home (works without the invite, using my priest, as well) and transfer the stuff. Remove the mailing part and I'll just buy the necessary silver from the shop directly and dump whatever is left into deed upkeep at the end. Either way I'm not spending my limited free time going to a market, and even if I did it would be with an alt using one of my boats.

 

So for me it's a matter of time. I'd rather spend it doing something fun, travel by boat is not that.

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12 minutes ago, Ecrir said:

I live on an island, the Wagoneer system is irrelevant to me. Usually when I buy stuff it's out of convenience. Like if I need bulk materials and dont want to spend my limited free time on them then I'll just buy them, with delivery included. The people doing the delivery by boat usually use an alt for that, so they can still do something productive with their main. In those cases there is no real advantage to using a third party for the transportation.

 

As for mailbox pricing. Several times I've simply made a new alt, spawned it at a marketplace, had it mail an item to my main for whatever amount of silver I need and then I buy stuff with said alt, invite alt to my village, teleport him home (works without the invite, using my priest, as well) and transfer the stuff. Remove the mailing part and I'll just buy the necessary silver from the shop directly and dump whatever is left into deed upkeep at the end. Either way I'm not spending my limited free time going to a market, and even if I did it would be with an alt using one of my boats.

 

So for me it's a matter of time. I'd rather spend it doing something fun, travel by boat is not that.

build a freaking bridge to mainlaind and get access to highway (?)

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3 hours ago, tamat said:

build a freaking bridge to mainland and get access to highway (?)

Let's say I'm a fan of that way of putting it together.

 

Bridges last quite long if they are used... I think it's similar to road rules.. actually unsure how they take damage and how fast it happens .. but seems like if they are not forgotten and used ~often.. they simply take no damage.. unless I've missed hordes of bridge maintenance people repairing the main bridge-path projects somehow...

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4 hours ago, Ecrir said:

I live on an island, the Wagoneer system is irrelevant to me. Usually when I buy stuff it's out of convenience. Like if I need bulk materials and dont want to spend my limited free time on them then I'll just buy them, with delivery included. The people doing the delivery by boat usually use an alt for that, so they can still do something productive with their main. In those cases there is no real advantage to using a third party for the transportation.

 

As for mailbox pricing. Several times I've simply made a new alt, spawned it at a marketplace, had it mail an item to my main for whatever amount of silver I need and then I buy stuff with said alt, invite alt to my village, teleport him home (works without the invite, using my priest, as well) and transfer the stuff. Remove the mailing part and I'll just buy the necessary silver from the shop directly and dump whatever is left into deed upkeep at the end. Either way I'm not spending my limited free time going to a market, and even if I did it would be with an alt using one of my boats.

 

So for me it's a matter of time. I'd rather spend it doing something fun, travel by boat is not that.

Don't take this personal i just wanna offer view from another side to your post. Sailing by boat and delivery also not fun for people who sell ;) I often get annoyed by people who excpect to have 1k bricks for lower price delivered to center of Xana like it's nothing...The thing where buyers assume delivery is on seller by default in any circumstances is what ofputs me from sales most of the time, i usually never deliver under 5s and even that is not worth my time to do it :)

To the OP exactly for same reasons both you and me have as seller and buyer i'am all for all types of automations and lessening comunication and logistic needed for trading aka ingame auction houses

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4 hours ago, tamat said:

build a freaking bridge to mainlaind and get access to highway (?)

 

There already are two, one is one tile wide, the other 3 tiles wide but used buildings as supports (now with collapsed roofs). Even then both roads eventually end up at a mountain, with a 1 tile wide cave going up (with a lot of turns in it). There's no way I'll be able to realistically get that to work.

 

2 minutes ago, kochinac said:

Don't take this personal i just wanna offer view from another side to your post. Sailing by boat and delivery also not fun for people who sell ;) I often get annoyed by people who excpect to have 1k bricks for lower price delivered to center of Xana like it's nothing...The thing where buyers assume delivery is on seller by default in any circumstances is what ofputs me from sales most of the time, i usually never deliver under 5s and even that is not worth my time to do it :)

To the OP exactly for same reasons both you and me have as seller and buyer i'am all for all types of automations and lessening comunication and logistic needed for trading aka ingame auction houses

 

I totally agree with you there. When I buy in bulk I generally order 1-3 full Knarrs worth of large crates at a time. Most of which is usually dirt, when I need something else (like 1k bricks) I add it to one of my occasional bulk dirt orders. Buying just a few crates of stuff is indeed a waste of time and I wouldn't expect anybody to go out of their way to deliver that. I wish there was a Wagoner alternative that worked by sea, perhaps even cross server.

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4 hours ago, Ecrir said:

I live on an island, the Wagoneer system is irrelevant to me. Usually when I buy stuff it's out of convenience. Like if I need bulk materials and dont want to spend my limited free time on them then I'll just buy them, with delivery included. The people doing the delivery by boat usually use an alt for that, so they can still do something productive with their main. In those cases there is no real advantage to using a third party for the transportation.

 

As for mailbox pricing. Several times I've simply made a new alt, spawned it at a marketplace, had it mail an item to my main for whatever amount of silver I need and then I buy stuff with said alt, invite alt to my village, teleport him home (works without the invite, using my priest, as well) and transfer the stuff. Remove the mailing part and I'll just buy the necessary silver from the shop directly and dump whatever is left into deed upkeep at the end. Either way I'm not spending my limited free time going to a market, and even if I did it would be with an alt using one of my boats.

 

So for me it's a matter of time. I'd rather spend it doing something fun, travel by boat is not that.

 

It makes sense, now, why any market hubs (Club Market, Freedom Market) emerge and sustain themselves near Spawn areas.  What wasn't apparent until now - with your post - was why this emerged.   One-Time Alt-Spawns for existing players can be used to transfer goods to location.  This is cheaper then using a Priest teleport too I presume.  Making a new ALT costs nothing for a player.  I've also identified several other very important (and non-logical ) needs for alts.  Off-Line non decay storage and increasing the 5 copper limit per hour token selling is but two.

 

Why emergent behavior emerges - almost always a result of some meta-game angle that isn't logical.  After playing this game for ~2 months its becoming more and more apparent that multiple Alt spawning and use is a key to (?winning?) the economic game. 

 

Making a mental note here for anyone stumbling across this thread;  you need to separate the notion the character in game represents you.  Not doing so is a mental hurdle for many (including me).  Toons in this game are tools - used by players to reach an end goal.  If you tie yourself to the idea a specific Main character is you in the game, it will restrict your ability to maximize the environment.   This includes purchasing/trading toons in game that have high skills in certain areas.

 

It doesn't mean you are forced to play the sandbox by using multiple toons - but if you wish to play for any economic advantage, in production and logistics (delivering goods) it is a necessity.  I'm also pondering the importance here for the pvp side.  Advanced pvp toons are vehicles for fighting, but not good vehicles for economy (imping, cutting, mining, paving etc. priest restrictions..).  If you truly want to start a new kingdom on Chaos, I presume you'll need some of these vehicles to survive.  I am not sure it is viable to start a new deed on the pvp side with newer toons only.  As I learn more I'll revise my thoughts on the matter, but this is definitely enlightening. Toons <> players.

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Ecrir said:

I wish there was a Wagoner alternative that worked by sea, perhaps even cross server.


uh.   Yeah I would easily haul goods from one island to another for some ching.  Would even get a bigger ship.   I like to sail and explore. I don't enjoy spamming 1k of items.   I load and unload animals so often it isn't even a chore.  Grabbed two bison last week from Xanadu headed to a new settlement on indy for some imp work.  Traded a barrel of stew for some iron.  I enjoy that ######.  Would enjoy hauling goods, relocating people, or capturing critters.  Now that I finally realized passengers don't get stam drain - I can skill too.   - I would even hunt uniques for a finders fee.  

 

18 minutes ago, Actuarius said:

Why emergent behavior emerges - almost always a result of some meta-game angle that isn't logical.  After playing this game for ~2 months its becoming more and more apparent that multiple Alt spawning and use is a key to (?winning?) the economic game. 

 

Making a mental note here for anyone stumbling across this thread;  you need to separate the notion the character in game represents you.  Not doing so is a mental hurdle for many (including me).  Toons in this game are tools - used by players to reach an end goal.  If you tie yourself to the idea a specific Main character is you in the game, it will restrict your ability to maximize the environment.   This includes purchasing/trading toons in game that have high skills in certain areas.


PvP aside, no one is “beating” me at this game.  There is nothing I “need” in this game but plenty I want.  I pay for others time - thats not a loss to me.  I concede your point if you are playing a purely economic sandbox - too many ways around to implement truly competitive markets.  
 

Devs hands are full throwing in new items that also stimulate the player base and the markets that don't also break the sandbox.  

Edited by Arishok
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24 minutes ago, kochinac said:

Don't take this personal i just wanna offer view from another side to your post. Sailing by boat and delivery also not fun for people who sell ;) I often get annoyed by people who excpect to have 1k bricks for lower price delivered to center of Xana like it's nothing...The thing where buyers assume delivery is on seller by default in any circumstances is what ofputs me from sales most of the time, i usually never deliver under 5s and even that is not worth my time to do it :)

To the OP exactly for same reasons both you and me have as seller and buyer i'am all for all types of automation and lessening communication and logistic needed for trading aka ingame auction houses

I agree -sellers don't want to spend precious time traveling to deliver and buyers - the same - for buying.  Its.. the perfect opportunity for a middleman service to develop, but it never did.  In EVE middleman services for transporting goods emerged in several ways and is a great way to make money.  In wurm..  it just never materialized and instead developers added game mechanics to remove the time it took to transport goods.  And other mechanics were found to exploit: Alts one-time village teleport use.  

 

There are other possible factors why it didn't emerge - partly because one can just "make" the items themselves in Wurm, and it may be that making 2000 bricks takes less time (and skills you up) then spending time traveling to get the bricks from someone else.  Here's the problem statement.  Travel time in Wurm is time lost skilling/grinding.  Raising ones skill-ticks is a higher motivator then traveling. Traveling almost feels like a waste of one's time.  I'm not saying this is a bad thing, its just a thing.  I just hadn't grasped all the motivators (and de-motivators) in Wurm's mechanics that emerged some behaviors but not others.

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34 minutes ago, Arishok said:


uh.   Yeah I would easily haul goods from one island to another for some ching.  Would even get a bigger ship.   I like to sail and explore. I don't enjoy spamming 1k of items.   I load and unload animals so often it isn't even a chore.  Grabbed two bison last week from Xanadu headed to a new settlement on indy for some imp work.  Traded a barrel of stew for some iron.  I enjoy that ######.  Would enjoy hauling goods, relocating people, or capturing critters.  Now that I finally realized passengers don't get stam drain - I can skill too.   - I would even hunt uniques for a finders fee.  

 

Glad to hear this - I would enjoy this aspect to.

 

34 minutes ago, Arishok said:

PvP aside, no one is “beating” me at this game.  There is nothing I “need” in this game but plenty I want.  I pay for others time - thats not a loss to me.  I concede your point if you are playing a purely economic sandbox - too many ways around to implement truly competitive markets.  

 

Agree on all points.  

 

34 minutes ago, Arishok said:

Devs hands are full throwing in new items that also stimulate the player base and the markets that don't also break the sandbox.  

 

This is definitely a thing, only certain development battles can be fought.  Limited time, limited people, and all that jazz.  Noting, however, that MMOs should evolve over time.  Existing Metas need to change, ever so slightly, and new metas introduced altering the environment in such a matter it changes and forces adaptation (which.. should be fun? Understanding that sometimes devs get it wrong and will need to alter course, all apart of the evolving sandbox experience). 

 

My lack of understanding here - what the game of Wurm wants to become - an economic trading simulator?  A survival game in a harsh environment?  A building simulator?  A kingdom vs kingdom pvp arena?   It is a sandbox -  but  - it almost seems like separate sandboxes are emerging to satisfy these different play-styles  - Vs - One unified sandbox with all the play-styles interacting with mechanics constructed that integrate them.  EDIT: I'm biased, I want them all under one roof - and I understand its hard to pull off well.

 

Just thoughts.  I'm probably off, but like a broken clock I could hit the mark up to two times per day.

Edited by Actuarius
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4 minutes ago, Actuarius said:

My lack of understanding here - what the game of Wurm wants to become - an economic trading simulator?  A survival game in a harsh environment?  A building simulator?  A kingdom vs kingdom pvp arena?   It is a sandbox -  but  - it almost seems like separate sandboxes are emerging to satsify these different play-styles  - Vs - One unified sandbox with all the play-styles interacting with mechanics constructed that integrate them.  


Bingo - all the parts that make it a great game are too disparate.   Segregated.   
 

then you throw in epic and jackal - further segregation - but is what players seemed to have asked for in one iteration or another.   
 

Most suggestions  I have seen to bring these elements together suffer from NIMBY from many vocal players.   

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23 hours ago, Actuarius said:

 

Off-Line non decay storage and increasing the 5 copper limit per hour token selling is but two.

 

Why emergent behavior emerges - almost always a result of some meta-game angle that isn't logical.

 

 

Pretty spot on, though in the case of storage alts I don't think it's a meta-game angle that isn't logical. This behavior generally happens because decay on deeds isn't fun. For example people don't want tools they have to have decayed by the time they need them, and some tools you really only need once every few months for something obscure. The only alternatives for decay free storage for some items are magic chests, alts are far cheaper and can store way more items. There's also the bank at the token, but that only fits 5 slots so it's nowhere near enough either.

 

So the problem here is more demand for decay free on deed storage that the devs haven't acted upon. Over the years some of it has  been met with Bulk Storage Bins and the like, for raw materials, but tools have never really been addressed besides by the inadequate magic chests, which are too small for some items and honestly way too expensive for what they do (and I still  own two large ones). Plenty of MMOs solve this by selling more bank slots! Like, add a one time usage item to the Trader for silver, for example 1s, which gives that character 2 extra bank slots. Then put the max bank slots that an account can have  at 100, or even higher if there are no technical limitations, and watch people spend their silver.

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We're moving from transporter-jobs to alts multiplication to actions to overcome fatigue and RL time, zero-decay and copper per hour strategies here? wow😱

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