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Actuarius

What are the economic sinks and faucets for Wurm?

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I'll note I am new to Wurm, forgive me any ignorance.   I've been drinking from a firehouse learning the game system the last two weeks.  First off, I was attracted to the game due to its rewarding nature for hard work,  an economy where money is actually difficult to come by (limiting inflation), and the imaginative idea and dream of moving out of Hi Sec  "Freedom" into the Null Sec "Chaos" to claim a land of my own with 20 others in tow; or at least have the adventure of trying and dying.  I'm also a prior EVE player, hence my mention of low and hi sec, and my interest in the gaming economy of Wurm and how it works.  As I unravel the games economic engine, it leaves me with a few questions (or maybe concerns?).   The following statements/questions/observations are my own and I hope to garnish feedback, correcting my impressions if they are in error.

 

What drives destruction, which continually creates demand for items?  I've bought some hi level items from the Trade channel,  and in discussions with the sellers, I have discovered many of these items have existed for years.  They've never had to replace gear.  I'm also noticing that I continually improve my own gear as time goes on, never needing to purchase or create new gear.  Does nothing break permanently? Finally, a discussion with a Chaos vet had me surprised. Every piece of Drake armor created is still in the game.  They dont get destroyed, they just change hands (loot or death).

 

I hope I am wrong, but I believe the leading need to obtain new gear only comes from new players entering the game.  There is no destruction cycle creating demand.  Is this a correct assumption?  

 

The way I see it, only way gear leaves the game is if it happens to decay before it is looted by another player, or a player leaves the game, logging out to never return with good gear on them.

 

Where are the sinks in the games economy to maintain demand?

 

Cheers, thanks for any feedback.

    

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The main thing these days is that the silver that exists in the game is a quite steady amount, as players buy it from each other rather than from the store. This means that the amount of silver in the game is equal or decreasing, as players use it to pay for their deeds, deed upkeep, premium time and items from traders such as magic chests.

 

The demand on things is largely dependent on the players and their goals. The market is ever changing, as players go through phases of wanting items that are newly added to the game, rare items, higher quality items or things with nice aesthetics or enchants. The enchants and item market is maintained by a steady decrease in quality of both enchants and quality on any item that is in use. This means eventually you will need it improved, re-enchanted or replaced. The markets for food are driven by decay on the food and the desire and need of players to fill all of their bars. The bulk market is basically a reflection of peoples' laziness (sorry guys xD), as people want to build things but don't want to spend all the time making the materials for it. Guilty as charged, I also frequently buy there. If you ask me, there are many things that drive the market's economy both between players and to regulate the total amount of silver in the game.

 

Returning and new players, as well as the desire for new alts and projects, create a steady demand on certain things. There are always times the demand fluctuates based on different factors such as time of year, community events or game news/events, but in my opinion it regulates itself over time by replacing old demands or recreating old demands after a certain amount of time. I wouldn't worry about any cycles that create demand, as players are always pushing themselves and others to get their chars better, their equipment better, or their deeds bigger, better or more shiny. :) 

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Thanks!  There is definitely a basis for demand as you mention it, especially bulk materials for building.  Deeds that lapse do decay fairly fast allowing all the building supplies for buildings to be destroyed.  

 

How does coin come into the game (AKA the Faucets)?  Is it only coin purchased from the online store from the devs? Or does the game engine create coin from other in game methods?

 

Another note, I've discovered four ways to farm for coin in the game.  Regarding these methods, where does the money come from?  does it come from the games "Existing" supply of coin (from the King per se) or is it spontaneously created and added to the Wurms supply of coin?

1) Foraging/botanizing,

2) selling junk items for iron (occasional reward of rare coin from king here too),

3) burying corpses,

4) and praying.

 

Thanks in advance Wurmers.  I'm somewhat of a nerd on these things and enjoy discovering how the engine works.

 

Cheers

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From what I understand, the "King" has an actual bank account (the King's coffers). Money goes in there from upkeep and some other things like traders, and the sources you mention draw from this bank account, and in fact won't pay out if it's empty.

 

Coin purchased from the shop is created from thin air.

 

If someone pays for game time with silver, some of it goes to the King's coffers and some is destroyed.

 

There may be other ways to create or destroy coin, but on the whole the money seems to just circulate.

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All silver was either bought from the shop originally, or created by staff.  When a server is created, the devs generally pump a bit of new silver into the coffers, and there are events from time to time that reward new silver.  The coffers are per-server (the king's coffers), and silver paid for deed upkeep and some of the silver paid to traders when buying things goes into these coffers.  Coins from foraging etc and from selling to tokens comes from the coffers (so if they're empty, those activities don't produce coin).  The vast majority of coin recirculates around the market, as players sell it to each other, or use it to purchase things from each other.

 

There's very little destruction of non-consumables (like tools), although there is an ongoing need for repairs and improving of tools.  There's also an amount of upgrading (as players can afford better tools as they progress), and a tiny trickle of destruction as tools go away in the inventories of players who leave, or rot away on fallen deeds before someone loots them.

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51 minutes ago, Actuarius said:

What drives destruction, which continually creates demand for items?  I've bought some hi level items from the Trade channel,  and in discussions with the sellers, I have discovered many of these items have existed for years.  They've never had to replace gear.  I'm also noticing that I continually improve my own gear as time goes on, never needing to purchase or create new gear.  Does nothing break permanently? Finally, a discussion with a Chaos vet had me surprised. Every piece of Drake armor created is still in the game.  They dont get destroyed, they just change hands (loot or death).

 

I hope I am wrong, but I believe the leading need to obtain new gear only comes from new players entering the game.  There is no destruction cycle creating demand.  Is this a correct assumption?  

 

The way I see it, only way gear leaves the game is if it happens to decay before it is looted by another player, or a player leaves the game, logging out to never return with good gear on them.

 

Where are the sinks in the games economy to maintain demand?

 

Note that you don't need an outright destruction to maintain demand. Yldrania already pointed this out, everything wears down. And that's functionally equivalent for demand, just in an (in my opinion) nicer way.

 

Consider that you have a nice pickaxe, and it wears out and poofs. You now need the services of a blacksmith, plus iron (and some wood) as raw materials, to make you a new one.

 

Alternatively, you have a nice pickaxe and its quality level is starting to wear out. You now need the services of a blacksmith, plus iron as raw material, to have it improved again to high quality. Similar thing, but the demand is now for a service instead of a good.

 

Of course you can do both of these yourself if you want to, and most people are either a blacksmith themselves or have friends who are. You won't ever be able to get a monopoly on the blacksmithing market. But there is always blacksmithing work to be done, and if you are especially skilled at it you can charge money.

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33 minutes ago, Actuarius said:

Thanks!  There is definitely a basis for demand as you mention it, especially bulk materials for building.  Deeds that lapse do decay fairly fast allowing all the building supplies for buildings to be destroyed.  

 

How does coin come into the game (AKA the Faucets)?  Is it only coin purchased from the online store from the devs? Or does the game engine create coin from other in game methods?

 

Another note, I've discovered four ways to farm for coin in the game.  Regarding these methods, where does the money come from?  does it come from the games "Existing" supply of coin (from the King per se) or is it spontaneously created and added to the Wurms supply of coin?

1) Foraging/botanizing,

2) selling junk items for iron (occasional reward of rare coin from king here too),

3) burying corpses,

4) and praying.

 

Thanks in advance Wurmers.  I'm somewhat of a nerd on these things and enjoy discovering how the engine works.

 

Cheers

people drain traders, public or private ones (yeap, you can buy one and have it if other/s arent around)
coffers are divided into trader ones and rare coins...
some money go out of system other not, even also people trading items, accounts, services or real money for it

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On 10/30/2019 at 1:50 PM, Lisimba said:

Advantage of Xanadu, no trader draining.

 

 

Interesting.  Is there a separate "Kings coffer" per server?  Seems somewhat moot if one can carry coin or sell items to someone on another server.  So all the islands on the same cluster would be economically normalized.  Therefore, sounds like the restriction to farm Merchants on Xanadu is a limitation, not a benefit?

Edited by Actuarius
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Traders are usually drained, you cant tourism around public places for that.. but some probably use alts.. like for source spring farms

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Almost a separate topic - but it just dawned on me - are there any reasons to trade between Freedom Isles and Chaos?  I'd have to ponder some examples if there currently aren't any, but some reason for Chaos to need the Freedom isles and vice versa.  I'm thinking resources which aren't obtainable  on Chaos, and vice versa, creating a dependency for trade.  Maybe even some new game mechanics that encourage Freedom isles to support one kingdom or another on Chaos to achieve some benefit.  

 

Cheers again!

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31 minutes ago, Actuarius said:

are there any reasons to trade between Freedom Isles and Chaos? 

 

I am not an expert on the needs of PVP players, but I have observed the following:

 

The different Player Made Kingdoms on Chaos each produce a good many collectables, such as PMK-coloured wagons, flag and banners, which players on the PVE servers love to collect and invest in.  These items can only be made by PMK members and only on Chaos.  This appears to bring silver to the Chaos PMKs, which they can then spend how they wish. 

 

In return I have seen Chaos players buy priest favour, foodstuffs and other bulk materials (such as building materials) from the PVE servers - where presumably it might be more convenient, safer or cheaper to produce in large quantities, and I would think allows Chaos players to devote more of their time to reinforcing their defences or whatever they need to do.

 

Much of the trade is completed in person on the safe PVE servers for technical and security reasons, but this apparently does not hinder the flow of money between PVE and PVP and vice versa.

 

Happy to stand corrected, as I am just a humble PVE player :) 

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1 hour ago, Actuarius said:

 

 

Interesting.  Is there a separate "Kings coffer" per server?  Seems somewhat moot if one can carry coin or sell items to someone on another server.  So all the islands on the same cluster would be economical normalized.  Therefore, sounds like the restriction to farm Merchants on Xanadu is a limitation, not a benefit?

 

The coffers are separate per server, yeah. But without trader draining there is a much better chance that there's enough money in it to give you some when foraging/botanizing/etc.

 

And I'm okay with that. Trader draining is basically a (fairly boring) minigame available only to people rich enough to be able to hide a trader somewhere.

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36 minutes ago, Muse said:

Happy to stand corrected, as I am just a humble PVE player :) 

 

No such thing as a humble PVE player.  In every Carebear there is a raging tiger ready to extend claw to right some injustice.  

 

:)

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2 minutes ago, Lisimba said:

 

(...) Trader draining is basically a (fairly boring) minigame available only to people rich enough to be able to hide a trader somewhere.

 

I've read through this process and it sounds horrible. Not for the boringness, but the fact that its original intent by developers was to create more trade for everyone (allowing coin to flow).  Except, what always happens when cunning human nature gets involved, new and emergent game play arises exploiting the angles unseen.

 

I'm surprised this hasn't been removed and replaced.  I doubt its current exploited use is intended.

 

PS:  took me a while to figure out that personal merchants aren't traders and wont take items for coin.  I just thought everything was farmed already

 

Cheers

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19 minutes ago, Lisimba said:

 

The coffers are separate per server, yeah. But without trader draining there is a much better chance that there's enough money in it to give you some when foraging/botanizing/etc.

 

And I'm okay with that. Trader draining is basically a (fairly boring) minigame available only to people rich enough to be able to hide a trader somewhere.

you forgot the point that you can use an alt in every starting town, and dont need buy any trader, pay deed or prem...
moreover you can sell it for money outside of wurm

 

Edited by tamat

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1 minute ago, tamat said:

you forgot the point that you can use an alt in every starting town, and dont need buy any trader, pay deed or prem

 

Dear god - are you suggesting what I think..  Have an Alt in every starter down and login in right after reboot (or whenever the trader gets funded) then lock the trader window and drain the ba*tard?  Thats ingenious!  Very apparent now you mention it.  Thanks!  Now there will be 2000 alts logging in for 5 minutes racing to each trader, to lock the window first, then exploit the coffers.  

 

Emergent game play for sure but this is just horrible!  lol.  Laugh or cry?

 

Cheers,

 

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Just now, Actuarius said:

 

Dear god - are you suggesting what I think..  Have an Alt in every starter down and login in right after reboot (or whenever the trader gets funded) then lock the trader window and drain the ba*tard?  Thats ingenious!  Very apparent now you mention it.  Thanks!  Now there will be 2000 alts logging in for 5 minutes racing to each trader, to lock the window first, then exploit the coffers.  

 

Emergent game play for sure but this is just horrible!  lol.  Laugh or cry?

 

Cheers,

 

 

Ok.. this has been going on for years and I doubt every Wurmian does this.  A select few do I'm sure.  Some one out there is making a ton of Silver, then no doubt selling it for real money with this method.  I'm not exactly sure of the specifics of trading like this to drain coffers,, i.e. how much money can be drained typically?  But this would snowball.  Simply reinvest the money into buying more traders and farm them too.  I imagine if you had enough traders you could milk the entire system eventually and be the man on the top of the hill with all the money.

 

Am I off here?  whats to stop people from doing this?  If this is the case this is pure madness.  So, I hope I am wrong somewhere.  Even discussing it on an open forum feels like I'm doing something horribly wrong, like handing the keys to the castle to every joker who walks by.

 

Cheers,

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The effort probably no longer justifies the gains. At the moment the "time value" of silver gained in general in wurm is not favorable to exploitation. The RMT is more a pleasant feature for those who partake or are motivated by the thought of getting  nominal monetary gain from online efforts. 

 

I would certainly hope at this stage and state of the wurm economy there are not denizens actually trying to subside off of playing WO. 

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24 minutes ago, Actuarius said:

 

Ok.. this has been going on for years and I doubt every Wurmian does this.  A select few do I'm sure.  Some one out there is making a ton of Silver, then no doubt selling it for real money with this method.  I'm not exactly sure of the specifics of trading like this to drain coffers,, i.e. how much money can be drained typically?  But this would snowball.  Simply reinvest the money into buying more traders and farm them too.  I imagine if you had enough traders you could milk the entire system eventually and be the man on the top of the hill with all the money.

 

Am I off here?  whats to stop people from doing this?  If this is the case this is pure madness.  So, I hope I am wrong somewhere.  Even discussing it on an open forum feels like I'm doing something horribly wrong, like handing the keys to the castle to every joker who walks by.

 

Cheers,

 

Traders need to be 63 tiles away from other traders and while not strictly necessary you'd really want to place them on a deed you own. You also need to keep on making high value things to sell them, though that is probably feasible enough if you're established. Anyway, it's a pain in the arse to maintain multiple of them. And you don't get a monopoly, other people drain theirs at the same time, and the more traders there are, the less profit there is to be had per trader (the income part of the king's coffers doesn't change). So I imagine it settles around the point where they give just enough profit that the people involved don't yet decide to give up on the whole thing.

 

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15 minutes ago, nygen said:

The effort probably no longer justifies the gains. At the moment the "time value" of silver gained in general in wurm is not favorable to exploitation. The RMT is more a pleasant feature for those who partake or are motivated by the thought of getting  nominal monetary gain from online efforts. 

 

I would certainly hope at this stage and state of the wurm economy there are not denizens actually trying to subside off of playing WO. 

online effort? check mortar or drit for example, both value per thousando down, dirt is hafl that used to be, mortar down from 2.5s to 2s...
bricks started to down prices too...
many sellers so few buyers, just add people using alts vs who dont use them, and dont even need be prem for get the raw resources


 

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1 hour ago, Actuarius said:

 

Dear god - are you suggesting what I think..  Have an Alt in every starter down and login in right after reboot (or whenever the trader gets funded) then lock the trader window and drain the ba*tard?  Thats ingenious!  Very apparent now you mention it.  Thanks!  Now there will be 2000 alts logging in for 5 minutes racing to each trader, to lock the window first, then exploit the coffers.  

 

Emergent game play for sure but this is just horrible!  lol.  Laugh or cry?

 

Cheers,

 

Window of opportunity.. only until players report it, drama have started on the forums.. and there's a new tos rule.. against such sketchy practices that turn starting traders into useless npcs being locked 24/7 by 'bots'.

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1 hour ago, tamat said:

online effort? check mortar or drit for example, both value per thousando down, dirt is hafl that used to be, mortar down from 2.5s to 2s...
bricks started to down prices too...
many sellers so few buyers, just add people using alts vs who dont use them, and dont even need be prem for get the raw resources


 

Of course. Hence my saying I think playing for fun is more paramount than trying to earn real life quid at this point. 

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So, what if tools never had their quality reduced from use? What if enchants on items never lost their power from use? Wouldn't this be better for those players who purchased these items for what is in effect real $$$$ and thus makes the game more expensive to play? Why should silver coins be "money sinked" out of the game? Would it not be better for players to pay less to play the game then, rather than create a system as presently where these things wear down so other players must pay someone else to re-imp or re-enchant them?

 

Now out in that other world we mostly live in there is obsolescence built into items, which then creates profits for the manufactures of them and employment for others. New and improved designs also create a demand for those products with the same result as above. This is a real world "economy" out of necessity for people to be able to live. To attempt to design a game such as Wurm on this basis only makes it more expensive for players as there is otherwise no need to have this Wurm "economy" sustain anyone's ability to live in the outside world.

 

I would much rather that in Wurm items always kept their original quality and enchants kept their power than to have the current system that benefits those who improve and enchant these items. Why should the game be setup so that they can make $$$$ from other players. Remember we are talking about a RL expense here being added into the playing of this game. In contrast, players draining Traders or pursuing the various coin drop give-backs cost myself and other players nothing since they are taken for a portion of the game's profits based upon deed upkeep percentage.

 

Remember, some player will originally still have to create or enchant these tools and they will be purchased from them if the player is not able to do this them self. After that there is no real need to have these items degrade, other than the obvious desire of these producers to make more $$$$ by providing a further service that would otherwise not be needed. A game system that rewards other's greed(?) is perhaps not the best design to attempt to justify as a positive aspect of the game?

 

=Ayes=

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24 minutes ago, Ayes said:

Why should the game be setup so that they can make $$$$ from other players.

I kind of tend to my tools on my own... rest is just living with not the 104 casts all the time or having 100 imbue, supreme tools.

All that is possible.. but not at all that reasonable for a 'casual' gameplay.. all could use a good ql or enchant on their tool/weapon/armor for various reasons.. new players or just for the survivability or time saving sake;

24 minutes ago, Ayes said:

Remember, some player will originally still have to create or enchant these tools and they will be purchased from them if the player is not able to do this them self. After that there is no real need to have these items degrade, other than the obvious desire of these producers to make more $$$$ by providing a further service that would otherwise not be needed. A game system that rewards other's greed(?) is perhaps not the best design to attempt to justify as a positive aspect of the game?

Not entirely true.. nothing stops the player to become a priest and enchant on it's own or a grind up a skill and improve the tools/armor/weapons on it's own again.

 

Depends if you can or want to invest time on that.. or spending the money and having more fun other ways have more value for you.

 

Game's maybe oversaturated with goods or QL/skillsets have too little to offer, making only the silver/s.powder/moonmetal trades the only valuable exchange for the other services and gear.

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