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14 minutes ago, wipeout said:

Was the whole "steam will not allow for RMT on the new steam servers" thing said by steam or something that was researched and come to a conclusion to? I am asking this because like just above there are games that do have it so my guess is that if steam gave an answer then was the question asked properly setup

It's said by Steam and is in the Steam distribution TOS, it's not something we came up with by ourselves, and it's not guesswork. Exchanging digital items for real currency and vice versa being disallowed by Steam is a fact.

 

I won't engage in any grey area discussions for obvious reasons, but a discussion on what people think about RMT in Wurm in general (non Steam) is more than welcome, and how acceptable would be removing it altogether. While I think it could be beneficial for the game overall, it's definitely been a large part of Wurm for a long while, and one that does impact a lot of people.

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If you do end up having to separate WO and new SteamWO or make too many changes to the SteamWO version of the game where the servers can't be joined in the future then hook us up with a 1 time character and skill transfer.  We keep the same name and skill levels without any math conversions since no need for it.  We continuing skilling with whatever the new system is going forward.

 

That would be a great answer for us older players that want to try out or move over to Steam without having to start completely over.  If not immediately then open transfers after 1-3 months after releasing it.

 

No RMT would probably keep a balance between new PvP/Freedom servers.

Edited by nicedreams
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winter look nice now...

 

12 hours ago, Retrograde said:

My next allowed break is in another 4 years. 

so you are procrastinating for like 3 years from now?

 



 

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1 minute ago, nicedreams said:

If you do end up having to separate WO and new SteamWO or make too many changes to the SteamWO version of the game where the servers can't be joined in the future then hook us up with a 1 time character and skill transfer.  We keep the same name and skill levels without any math conversions since no need for it.  We continuing skilling with whatever the new system is going forward.

 

That would be a great answer for us older players that want to try out or move over to Steam without having to start completely over.  If not immediately then open transfers after 1-3 months after releasing it.

dont think will be skill transfer, because veterans will ruin the economy like is on WO

 

3 minutes ago, Samool said:

It's said by Steam and is in the Steam distribution TOS, it's not something we came up with by ourselves, and it's not guesswork. Exchanging digital items for real currency and vice versa being disallowed by Steam is a fact.

 

I won't engage in any grey area discussions for obvious reasons, but a discussion on what people think about RMT in Wurm in general (non Steam) is more than welcome, and how acceptable would be removing it altogether. While I think it could be beneficial for the game overall, it's definitely been a large part of Wurm for a long while, and one that does impact a lot of people.

even if both merge, RMT transactions will be there even if not logs involved...

 

 

3 minutes ago, nicedreams said:

If you do end up having to separate WO and new SteamWO or make too many changes to the SteamWO version of the game where the servers can't be joined in the future then hook us up with a 1 time character and skill transfer.  We keep the same name and skill levels without any math conversions since no need for it.  We continuing skilling with whatever the new system is going forward.

 

That would be a great answer for us older players that want to try out or move over to Steam without having to start completely over.  If not immediately then open transfers after 1-3 months after releasing it.

hell no, veterans will ruin steam wo economy how they ruined wo...

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Just now, Samool said:

It's said by Steam and is in the Steam distribution TOS, it's not something we came up with by ourselves, and it's not guesswork. Exchanging digital items for real currency and vice versa being disallowed by Steam is a fact.

 

I won't engage in any grey area discussions for obvious reasons, but a discussion on what people think about RMT in Wurm in general (non Steam) is more than welcome, and how acceptable would be removing it altogether. While I think it could be beneficial for the game overall, it's definitely been a large part of Wurm for a long while, and one that does impact a lot of people.

Well thank you for the clarification that steam did say that to the wurm team(I hope that is what you meant with it ❤️

As for wurms case in my opinion it should be allowed as it is currently on everything as even if you ban a part of it people will still do it and in the end all that will happen is that person 2 is out of money and account where as person 1 who sold said thing has made money
Now those who play wurm to make a living off it to me thats just to far but alas not something we can do much about
If anything i wish there was a marketplace that is just a place for people to buy and sell stuff(no magical transportation of goods) by posting listings and seeing average prices it would stop some scummy rmt's from happening as well and even out the value of stuff

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54 minutes ago, tamat said:

dont think will be skill transfer, because veterans will ruin the economy like is on WO

 

even if both merge, RMT transactions will be there even if not logs involved...

 

 

hell no, veterans will ruin steam wo economy how they ruined wo...

 

I figure in 3 months veterans can do that to the economy anyways.

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16 minutes ago, nicedreams said:

 

I figure in 3 months veterans can do that to the economy anyways.

when archeology was added the first 90 title wasnt in less than week?

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Let's, once again, run the numbers.  I'll let people decide which one benefits the game more in the long run.

 

With RMT

50s get sold by CC to  Player A... CC gets its $75.  CC has $75.

Player buys 50k bricks from player B.  CC has $75.

Player B sells the the 50s to player C for $50.  CC has $75, player B has $50.

Player C buys 50k dirt from player D.  CC has $75.

Player D sells the 50s to player E for $50.  CC has $75, Players B and D have $50 each.

Player E buys 50s worth of tools from player F.  CC has $75.

Player F sells the 50s for $50 to player G.  CC has $75, Players B, D, and F have $50 each.

The same 50s circulate through a limited number of hands, CC only made money off those silvers once for development and advertising.  In short, CC has $75 to develop the game and advertise.  Yes, some of that silver may go into upkeep instead, in which case CC would STILL have $75 and BDF would have $40 each.  Same---friggin---difference.

 

Without RMT

50s get sold by CC to  Player A... CC gets its $75.  CC has $75.

Player A buys 50k bricks from player B.  CC has $75.

Player B sells the the 50s to player C for $50 has 50s to expand/buy ingame goods.  CC has $75, player B has more stuff.

Player C buys 50s off CC to buy 50k dirt from player D.  CC has $150

Player D sells the 50s to player E for $50 spends 50s like B.  CC has $150, Players B and D more stuff.

Player E buys 50s off CC to buy 50s worth of tools from player F.  CC has $225

Player F sells the 50s for $50 to player G also uses his silver on stuff.  CC has $225, Players B, D, and F 50s of stuff/land each.

Players B, D, and F have used their ingame earnings to expand their deeds (more upkeep income for CC, more bling for them) and/or purchased stuff from other players not listed here which means cash *flowing* in the *economy*, CC now has $225 instead of $75 to spend on development and advertising.  At this point, players could even get to a point where they can try to coax CC into lowering 50s to $50, and CC would still have twice the amount of money from this fictitious example than it would have had with RMT (That is to say $150 vs $75).

 

Sooooooooo the benefit of a few silver re-sellers vs the benefit of the company that runs and develops the whole game for the whole player population.

 

I say swive RMT.

"It would ruin wurm because with-RMT BDF would leave!!!!!!!!" .... mmmmmmmeeh, they weren't generating income for CC and ACEG would find someone else to buy their bricks, dirts, and tools from anyways, namely non-RMT BDF's.

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1 minute ago, tamat said:

when archeology was added the first 90 title wasnt in less than week?

2nd day or first if i recall correctly

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Surely everyone will just create a new account for Steam Wurm and just sell the account later?

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1 minute ago, Asciana said:

Surely everyone will just create a new account for Steam Wurm and just sell the account later?

One would need to create new steam accounts if they link steam id to account id on steam wo but thats just 1 extra step towards something like that 

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19 minutes ago, Mordraug said:

Let's, once again, run the numbers.  I'll let people decide which one benefits the game more in the long run.

 

With RMT

50s get sold by CC to  Player A... CC gets its $75.  CC has $75.

Player buys 50k bricks from player B.  CC has $75.

Player B sells the the 50s to player C for $50.  CC has $75, player B has $50.

Player C buys 50k dirt from player D.  CC has $75.

Player D sells the 50s to player E for $50.  CC has $75, Players B and D have $50 each.

Player E buys 50s worth of tools from player F.  CC has $75.

Player F sells the 50s for $50 to player G.  CC has $75, Players B, D, and F have $50 each.

The same 50s circulate through a limited number of hands, CC only made money off those silvers once for development and advertising.  In short, CC has $75 to develop the game and advertise.  Yes, some of that silver may go into upkeep instead, in which case CC would STILL have $75 and BDF would have $40 each.  Same---friggin---difference.

 

Without RMT

50s get sold by CC to  Player A... CC gets its $75.  CC has $75.

Player A buys 50k bricks from player B.  CC has $75.

Player B sells the the 50s to player C for $50 has 50s to expand/buy ingame goods.  CC has $75, player B has more stuff.

Player C buys 50s off CC to buy 50k dirt from player D.  CC has $150

Player D sells the 50s to player E for $50 spends 50s like B.  CC has $150, Players B and D more stuff.

Player E buys 50s off CC to buy 50s worth of tools from player F.  CC has $225

Player F sells the 50s for $50 to player G also uses his silver on stuff.  CC has $225, Players B, D, and F 50s of stuff/land each.

Players B, D, and F have used their ingame earnings to expand their deeds (more upkeep income for CC, more bling for them) and/or purchased stuff from other players not listed here which means cash *flowing* in the *economy*, CC now has $225 instead of $75 to spend on development and advertising.  At this point, players could even get to a point where they can try to coax CC into lowering 50s to $50, and CC would still have twice the amount of money from this fictitious example than it would have had with RMT (That is to say $150 vs $75).

 

Sooooooooo the benefit of a few silver re-sellers vs the benefit of the company that runs and develops the whole game for the whole player population.

 

I say swive RMT.

"It would ruin wurm because with-RMT BDF would leave!!!!!!!!" .... mmmmmmmeeh, they weren't generating income for CC and ACEG would find someone else to buy their bricks, dirts, and tools from anyways, namely non-RMT BDF's.

i ll would buy bricks for 1s/1k from you...

also your numbers are based in wo and steam wo will have the same prices, but doubt about that, will need wait until (if) released and see what happens



You forgot the most important thing, with RMT accounts cant be sold or share, bought steam allow share...

Edited by tamat

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I like it.. as long it's annoying enough to hide doing all that.. some till just move to wo and play there instead, open up their wallets and become their ultimate wallet-warrior version.. able to buy anything that have a price tag and have fun doing it..

Aren't games about that?

 

I don't give a .... if somebody have 50 or 1000 xmas gifts or 12-floor building, maybe I wont like being unable to build such but who's got time to plan an extra floor and decorate that...

 

Game is not pay2win but at the same time it's a sub game.. and almost anything is possible to be bought one way or another.. making cash the one unique currency to get you almost everything in wurm, which DOES NOT mean that you can't have a blast playing with less or no pocket change to spend on things in the game.

 

Not planning to go to steam.. for sure.. what starts to bother me is .. the newly forming barrier or wall that's being build up, and that reminds me of the initial plan to eventually merge servers in the future... I do not see how that is going to happen if steam does not like rmts and wo here have such, what does all that mean than for the one or other side.. will there be just one side eventually and how will all that look?

 

Transaction logs are cute but in the end players/traders will just use alts and bank money.. suicide, go to tokens to pull money, pay, get what you want, summon back, take/drop money instead of trading and so on.. none of that is by default being tracked.. and that's just the unpolished ways to do it in the game... most of this will be in discord official pms, finally reddit life or steam pms etc.. fun times ahead.. logs and alert/event matching will save a lot of time and eyeball movement, but still is going to require a person or few doing the tracking.

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2 hours ago, Samool said:

It's said by Steam and is in the Steam distribution TOS, it's not something we came up with by ourselves, and it's not guesswork. Exchanging digital items for real currency and vice versa being disallowed by Steam is a fact.

 

I was wondering about this myself and had a look around. So for anyone else who is curious: I think the Steam Subscriber Agreement covers this.

 

Part 2.G:

Quote

You are entitled to use the Content and Services for your own personal use, but you are not entitled to: (i) sell, grant a security interest in or transfer reproductions of the Content and Services to other parties in any way, nor to rent, lease or license the Content and Services to others without the prior written consent of Valve, except to the extent expressly permitted elsewhere in this Agreement (including any Subscription Terms or Rules of Use);

 

So no RMT of "Content and Services" unless exceptions that I don't think we have.

 

The definition of Contents and Services is in 1.B:

Quote

As a Subscriber you may obtain access to certain services, software and content available to Subscribers. The Steam client software and any other software, content, and updates you download or access via Steam, including but not limited to Valve or third-party video games and in-game content, software associated with Hardware and any virtual items you trade, sell or purchase in a Steam Subscription Marketplace are referred to in this Agreement as "Content and Services;"

 

Things in Wurm would fall under in-game content and so would probably count as "Content and Services". It mentions virtual items directly too but the sentence implies it's only talking about virtual items that go on the marketplace so that wouldn't directly apply to Wurm. Still, no RMT of any in-game content.

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I think, the real issue isn't paying for virtual currency; it's more the resale of it.

 

Honestly?  Just ban the resale of it for real world cash, problem solved.  Account sales?  Ban them.

 

Who actually loses at this point?  Accounts on the old cluster will be worthless anyway if it is essentially sunset; and there will be no way to "make bank" if the servers are dead.

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abandon ogwo

move onto steam wo

problems solved

 

even if you retain 30% of the current playerbase over that transition you're still probably in the green, comparatively to the amount that is currently playing and considered a "good figure"

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1 minute ago, platinumteef said:

abandon ogwo

move onto steam wo

problems solved

even if you retain 30% of the current playerbase over that transition you're still probably in the green, comparatively to the amount that is currently playing and considered a "good figure"

Stupid idea. Ruin your current business and hope for better elsewhere. Even if "only" 50% of the recent subs and upkeep are lost, it would kill Wurm.

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9 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

Stupid idea. Ruin your current business and hope for better elsewhere. Even if "only" 50% of the recent subs and upkeep are lost, it would kill Wurm.

 

Total Players: 243 / 5900

 

middle of the day

drops to nearly below 100 and most people are running a minimum of two accounts at a time

 

is it REALLY ruining it? or are you just upset because you can't read graphs or charts

 

I remember when I used to laugh because my toons were upwards of 10% of a server at times, now im nearly 5% of the entire game every single night.

Edited by platinumteef

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I believe the following would be the best solution:

  • Go ahead with the "Steam" implementation with RMT restrictions in effect. No more sales of accounts, silver or items.
  • Continue with the existing "Freedom" servers without RMT restrictions. Sales of accounts, silver or items are allowed.

The existing "Freedom" servers are not connected to, financed, integrated/run with "Steam" and are not within Steam's jurisdiction. I would strongly disagree with "Steam" dictating that you remove all RMT from both sides.


In this way, people who believe in RMT can transition to "Steam" and people who believe in "Freedom" can move to, well, "Freedom" servers.

 

Edited by Neville
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Account sales are cancer, and it's what ruined WO.

 

Unable or illegal to sell accounts would be the best thing to happen to this game in a long time. 

Edited by atazs
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I'm just over here glad that Retro didn't bring any new texture designs back from Aussie with him.  My deed is nearly finished for once in my 5 yrs.

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1 minute ago, atazs said:

Account sales are cancer, and it's what ruined WO.

 

Unable or illegal to sell accounts would be the best thing to happen to this game in a long time. 

 

Then move to "Steam". There would be no RMT there and if that's your belief, that's your place to play. Leave my sandbox alone.

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I gotta ask, it's been months since the Steam announcement and who knows how long you have been planning it before, and yet you make it sound like you guys STILL DONT KNOW anything and dont even intend to find out?! 

 

This is going to be a huge mess, mark my words. 

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4 minutes ago, Neville said:

 

Then move to "Steam". There would be no RMT there and if that's your belief, that's your place to play. Leave my sandbox alone.

I haven't touched WO since 2014 been playing Unlimited since it came out, so don't worry about me. 

I had over 250+ days ingame played on WO, way before you even heard about this game my friend 

Edited by atazs
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38 minutes ago, wipeout said:

Well thank you for the clarification that steam did say that to the wurm team(I hope that is what you meant with it ❤️

As for wurms case in my opinion it should be allowed as it is currently on everything as even if you ban a part of it people will still do it and in the end all that will happen is that person 2 is out of money and account where as person 1 who sold said thing has made money
Now those who play wurm to make a living off it to me thats just to far but alas not something we can do much about
If anything i wish there was a marketplace that is just a place for people to buy and sell stuff(no magical transportation of goods) by posting listings and seeing average prices it would stop some scummy rmt's from happening as well and even out the value of stuff

 

Steam doesn't allow RMT and that includes EVE Online. This also includes CS:GO because all money is handled through the steam wallet. I contacted Steam a while ago specifically about this issue if Wurm were to come to steam: Steam Support Response

 

The whole policy revolves around cash flow going into Steam and not coming out. For example, if people could sell their games in their library to other people, then Steam would lose out on a sale from the store. If you buy a skin on CS:GO, you get Steam Wallet money from the other person which cannot be extracted to real world money (unless you break terms, which does happen). You can use it to buy other games on their platform, but nowhere else - this keeps the money in the Steam ecosystem.

 

In the case of Wurm, you can add a method to buy silver in-game, then allow people to use that silver to purchase items from other player. Cash flow goes through steam -> game/player, and cannot be reversed. This would include allowing players to purchase silver directly from other players using real money.

 

All that aside, we can bring it back to EVE Online. Basically the policy is that they don't allow RMT. You can buy PLEX and sell it for player ISK in game. You can also use ISK to buy in-game PLEX, but it's not allowed to turn that PLEX into real world money. It's against terms to do RMT in EVE, and they can ban you for it. However, the difference is if they will ban you for it. Their enforcement of RMT rules is lax and they only do as much as they need to. I imagine that the same will apply to the Steam release of Wurm. They will have to outline that it would be against the rules to do real world trading. They wouldn't allow players to post WTS and WTB threads here on the forums. However, they probably will not enforce it with a heavy hand even when the rule is in place.

 

So what's the best case scenario? The existing servers get connected to Steam and the terms change to support that. Forum WTB/WTS threads all get archived and a new forum is presented with new rules that align to only trading for in-game currency. The only time that the rules are enforced is if someone breaking them causes problems (such as fraud).

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