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Samool

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16 hours ago, Ekcin said:

even the faster breeding of horses, most probably (which I felt quite pathetic)

 

There's a lot of things I too find pathetic, many stem from your attitude and while I didn't participate in the Elevation reset due to a lack of care for the proposed changes or ability to see a positive direction coming from them - faster horse breeding was certainly not one of them. Having horses in pvp is a must and they die first and fastest in battle, not having them cripples your chances to participate so if you find people wanting to engage in pvp pathetic then I'm not really sure how much weight the rest of your complaining holds.

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13 hours ago, Mordraug said:

 

If SteW (what I just decided to call Steam Wurm), with the extra QoL and new maps became popular enough, there'd be the option of keeping it separate and calling OGWO "Wurm Classic", a place where the Doctrines of Wurm are followed to the letter while SteW'ers have all the fun.

 

All the fun?! No plz. 99% of fun for SteamWO, fine, I can live with that. But at least 1% of fun for us? Let's be reasonable here :D

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Personally, I won't be moving to WOS.  Starting again has 0 appeal to me, and playing on a dead world even less.

 

This, I suspect, will be a prevailing attitude among most WO players.  If Jackal is anything to go by, the thrill of a fresh start is short lived in most of them.

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9 hours ago, SmeJack said:

 

There's a lot of things I too find pathetic, many stem from your attitude and while I didn't participate in the Elevation reset due to a lack of care for the proposed changes or ability to see a positive direction coming from them - faster horse breeding was certainly not one of them. Having horses in pvp is a must and they die first and fastest in battle, not having them cripples your chances to participate so if you find people wanting to engage in pvp pathetic then I'm not really sure how much weight the rest of your complaining holds.

This horse affair is somewhat symptomatic for the dogmatism and narrow-mindedness of at least part of the long standing PvP players on Wurm, to my impression.

 

It is true and matter of fact, that mounted combat has significant advantages over infantry fight, and there is few if any to counter it (not sure about halberds which would be a classic from military history, archery would be another one though mounted archers enjoy the same advantages). Therefore, and because horses are a feeble target, killing the opponent's horses is a primary tactic in combat, resulting in tremendous  waste of mountable and hitchable livestock.

 

This would usually cause tactical and strategic considerations such as limiting animal losses, trying to target the opponents' resources, thinking about tactics hindering overly mobile combat giving infantry better chances. Instead the old fashioned wasteful tactics are not only stubbornly defended, but even faster breeding required (and granted) to relieve from the pain of rethinking old ways and taking logistics in account. 

 

It is a sideshow, granted, but the fervent reactions did not really wonder me. And the willingness to dismiss any other aspect of my criticism on the excuses that I am dead wrong here (which ofc is possible) is just another variation of the same attitude.

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its pretty easy to make statements like that when you dont pvp but having a medieval glue factory is pretty much required coz walking sucks, and is even encouraged by mechanics even before the breed change, ratio for animals on deed is 5 in pvp compared to pve's 15 so you can have 3x the horses in your glue factory

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2 hours ago, Etherdrifter said:

Personally, I won't be moving to WOS.  Starting again has 0 appeal to me, and playing on a dead world even less.

 

This, I suspect, will be a prevailing attitude among most WO players.  If Jackal is anything to go by, the thrill of a fresh start is short lived in most of them.

 

Tbh I don't think the dev team wants WO people to shift over to steam, that wouldn't change income or population at all.

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21 hours ago, Rhianna said:

new players want untouched land. Not this overly terraformed lands with old decaying buildings, fences etc. I for one would only start playing WO again if a new server comes up. I don't mind starting anew but I'm not a precious spoilt brat (Elkins words) that cannot see that we are at such a low pop that something big is needed, you put older vets in among st the newbs and the whole thing will fall flat on its face. I don't think they have a choice but to try something drastic......

And that "something big" that's needed, that "drastic" change you think it will save Wurm is what, exactly? Adding new separate servers? As if they didn't do it before. May I remind you Pristine and Release used to be separate servers and you had to start over from scratch with a new avatar? You think that helped the game growing its playerbase in a way worth mentioning? Not at all; I was there day one, I know what exactly happened: those new separate servers had a peak in the first 2 months and that was all. When the first 2-months subscription was ended, many new players left Wurm (because they got bored, they didn't like the slow pace of the game, or whatnot). The total Wurm population quickly dropped down, more or less to the same level it used to be before introducing new servers. Those new servers ended up being populated mostly by alts created there from veterans, plus some new players who remained. The whole experiment was such a "drastic" change that they had to merge those 2 servers in the Freedom cluster after a few months they introduced them. The party was over, and guess what, NOTHING changed, other that we had two more low-populated servers.

 

16 hours ago, Mordraug said:

 

Bullet points?  BULLET POINTS! 

 

  • People like the wilderness feel. Unless you go into deep Xanadu, ain't no such thing.  Old terraforms, fences, roads all over.
  • People like coastal.  Good luck on an old server, specially if you wanted a blank slate.
  • Clean rock layer.  If the surface is a wasteland of old deeds, it's no better underground and newbies don't know the first thing about mining warnings.  Don't wanna lose them on day 2.
  • New players can be DESTRUCTIVE in their innocence, which would lead to:
  • Old players hating their guts and making no small secret of it as new players start digging up their perimeters not knowing what a perimeter is.
  • Let them create their own market.  At least with a fresh server, the ones who catch on to mechanics faster will have a shred of a chance at a market spot before the veterans take over.
  • It'll give CC time to figure out how to keep the RMT out of the Steam version and not risk running afoul of Steam policies.
  • QoL which would make loud purists shriek to the heavens can be applied without "ruining" OGWO.  Gives time to figure out how to handle that for when the merge finally happens.
  • If SteW (what I just decided to call Steam Wurm), with the extra QoL and new maps became popular enough, there'd be the option of keeping it separate and calling OGWO "Wurm Classic", a place where the Doctrines of Wurm are followed to the letter while SteW'ers have all the fun.

Complete nonsense. Not to mention you failed to even bullet it properly.

(1) The "wilderness feel" you mention will last 2 weeks maximum. Why? because "new players can be destructive" (your own words). Newbies (and old players starting over) will make a mess in no time, with terraforms and "roads all over". Example: Celebration was mainly a newbie server when they opened it, and a huge area around starting town was a disaster, a huge mess. All that in a matter of few days. Soon, the mess spread out even in my secluded outpost there. But don't worry, today most areas are wilderness, simply because nobody lives there, and even if a deed was there in the past, everything collapsed a long time ago. You don't need a new server if you want to experience the "wilderness feel". On the contrary, a separate new server will cease to be wilderness very quickly, because you will have more people in less space, compared to the many, already empty, Freedom servers.

(2) "People like coastal. Good luck on an old server": Nonsense "argument" again; Xanadu itself was yet another server that was not needed (not to mention Xanadu's many problems). Existing servers are full of empty coastal spots, not only in Xanadu but also in all other servers; and it couldn't be otherwise because ALL servers are pathetically low-populated. So who exactly takes over the coastal spots? The tiny playerbase that could fit in one server only?

(3) "Clear rock layer": yet another nonsense. Have a tour around Wurm, man. Go to Deliverance and tell me how much of wasteland you will find still standing. I can recall 5 or 6 deeds on west coast, the rest is no man's land, I can easily find a spot and set a mining colony if I wanted to. There are a few old mines, most of them collapsed, and the rest is free for the taking. Pristine is full of thick rock layer you can mine and create your dream underground land.

(4) The old-versus-new-players "argument" you tried is just silly. New servers will be full of old players playing a fresh toon; those will have a clear HUGE advantage against newbies. So the exact same issues with perimeters and whatnot will happen. I saw it happening myself on Pristine, back when it was a new separate server.

(5) About the "market" argument you mention: Yeah, sure, none of the veterans will play on new servers; not even one of them. It will be a pure newbie community, so newbies will "have a shred of a chance at a market spot before the veterans take over". Seriously man, are you THAT naive? Veterans will be there day one and they will take over market quickly because their new alt will progress 100 times faster due to player's previous experience. That nonsense was already tried out on 2 separate servers in the past. And guess what, veterans playing new toons took over the market in a matter of one month, if not less. I was on Pristine with a new toon; I made ships way faster than newbies eventhough we all started from scratch, because I knew what to do and how to do it. Other veterans took over blacksmithing goods, farming, everything. The market was quickly saturated and the merge of the 2 new servers in the Freedom cluster was inevitable. Long before the merge, veterans already had complete control of the market on separate servers. New players really didn't stand any chance to "create their own market". And you know why? Because the market system needs an overhaul. New separate servers will never change that.

(6) The Steam arguments doesn't really deserve any answer. Let me just point out Quality of Life doesn't need any new server; they introduced "QoL" changes in the past; some "purists" didn't like it, and the dust settled in a matter of days.

(7) What you call "Wurm classic" is dying already, and new Steam separate servers will be the final nail on its coffin. If you can't see that you are blind. Steam is popular, despite the fact it sucks. Freedom servers will be even more deserted, forcing the remaining oldies to either quit playing, or moving to Steam servers - if they can stand the Steam crap, of course.

 

Furthermore, none of you addressed the fact new servers will be on Steam only. Let's say new separate servers are needed (they aren't, but let's say I agree with you). Even then, why exactly new servers must be on Steam only? New players could just join the new servers via Steam if they want; others could join the new servers without Steam. Simple, and not restricting.

Steam itself is a DRM galore, not to mention the bugs. Nevertheless, I have no problem with it, as long I have the freedom not to use it. If you guys like DRM, enjoy Steam as much you like, provided others still have the option to stay away of it. But Steam-only servers, if they succeed, will kill Freedom servers thus killing the freedom to play without Steam. You want new separate servers so desperately? It's a mistake but ok, go ahead and do it. Just NOT Steam-only servers. And don't tell me they need to be Steam servers for some technical reason, because Samool and Rolf already said they MIGHT connect them to the existing Freedom servers in the future, so it is possible to have a new separate cluster not depending on Steam from day one. They just don't want to do it; they want new servers to be Steam-only. I tried to guess why they insist on that in a previous post.

 

I can see why they want Wurm on Steam. Sadly, Wurm is dying, and they hope Steam might save it because it's popular. "More audience, more people joining, more money for the company, Wurm is saved". It's not that simple, though. The best Steam can do is to increase Wurm playerbase for a few months, probably 2 or 4 months maximum. Then playerbase will inevitably drop again, because the "honeymoon" is over. And the question is how much it will drop. What will keep people playing Wurm is the gameplay, not Steam. Wurm is by nature a slow-paced game; I am perfectly fine with slow-paced gameplay, but most people aren't, thus you can never expect a huge playerbase. If I were to guess, I'd say Steam will not have a huge permanent change on Wurm playerbase. It will certainly increase the playerbase, but not too much in the long term. If that's enough to save Wurm, I don't know.

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The new servers will be Steam only because we wish to keep them seperated at least for the foreseeable future.

The existing Wurm players are not the target of the servers on Steam, while many may try it out, our focus is on a new market of players, with the current Wurm servers continuing, along with all updates and features.

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Oh well.... the one issue I always had with Wurm was the lack of a reason to grind those skills.

 

Sure, being creative with your deed and doing the one or other travel can be nice, but knowing you wont find anything exciting around the next corner is kind of meh... old deed ruins are the best you can hope for. 😕

Why should I grind fighting? To keep the mean trolls away from my deed?

Spirit Templar and Tower guards can do that too, give me a dungeon to actually use all those skills in.

The elusive unique that most of the time only goes to super dedicated hunting groups.... good luck trying to appeal to people with a real life and job, sure for those there is XIV and WoW or whatever then you could say... but if you want more people to play Wurm, it needs more than "here... put down a deed, build your house, up to that point its a survival game and from that point on you have a house it turns into a skill grind game".

Grinding any skill to unlock whatever or have better food and so on is all good and nice but here I stand and ask myself what for...

The core of Wurm used to be PvP and if you take that into consideration then sure, it all makes sense cause PvP takes that dedication but if you want Wurm to succeed in a PvE way, then it needs more content then the occasional rift or unique and the later will again go to dedicated hunting groups who will tell you "put more effort into it!".

 

Simply slaping some "dungeon of sorts" somewhere is ofc not perfect either, people would flock to it, maybe even deed next to it just to be close and so on.

For me it is hard to think up any reasonable PvE content, but what currently is in the game has never really appealed to me.

One person, forgive me I forgot who, once proposed something like "gather a ton of mats to build some structure and that then spawns a unique of sorts" or something on a raid level, I think it was mentioned by the FF Brothers too .... maybe something like that would be a direction to throw thoughts at, it's nothing static you would deed close by or whatever and it could be anything, a temporary portal to a raid instance or island or whatever really.

 

I have enjoyed my Wurm years greatly, then again I am not an average player either... Wurm is niché and trying to appeal to more people will be hard with the current content.

Wurm is not bad as it is, it just needs more reasons to be played the way it is now... as soon as people fall into the skill grind hole with no real goal beyond that it becomes tedious.

 

For me it is and remains my "Winter Season Game", but with the current news I am not sure I will return this season until those new servers are up.

My char has been premed the entire time and still is, regardless if I play or not, I like Wurm.... yet I wish there was more to do, more reason to all this "building your character up" part of the game which takes a huge amount of time.

 

But if you just slap on a new UI and some QoL changes, then sadly I don't see the new servers doing any better than what we have seen in the past - a short spike for the landrush fun (and I can't denie I would be part of that) but then it will slowly wittle down.

(Actually I would argue the PvP server may do better on that end, at least it has some reason behind the grind.)

Either people catch the grind bug and enjoy the pure skill grind with zero reasoning behind it on PvE or they don't and looking back, not many people did. 😕

 

(Not to mention a big reason for this to work was the RMT, people paid hefty prices for QL70+ tools on Release when it was not conected and so on - this time around there wont be any RMT, so that may produce a hit downwards as well, at least from the veteran side of view - not even considering the "restart from scratch" part. It may as well gives birth to a entire new sort of market, depending how coins will be acquired and then used again considering RMT is out the window.)

Edited by Milkdrop
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22 minutes ago, Milkdrop said:

(Actually I would argue the PvP server may do better on that end, at least it has some reason behind the grind.)

 

To some extent I agree with this. I don't pvp in Wurm and never have, so I rarely ever comment on it.  But I can say that the grind itself vs the potential losses, combined with how long it takes to build up a deed and with the RL cash value of everything, it's a huge deterrent to even trying it, imo.  There is just no way under the sun I would ever put so much tedious time & effort (and/or cash) into something where it can all be lost in the blink of an eye.(compared to the time spent getting there). Wurm is a building game and the idea that someone can tear down what you build just doesn't sound attractive.  And like most people, I tend to project and think that others would feel the same, lol.   I know that this type of pvp appeals to some, but honestly I just don't see it appealing to many, especially the Steam crowd. There's only one game where I actually enjoyed pvp, and that's because there was no real losses in either time or money. It was just plain competitive fun.  Maybe I'm typical and maybe I'm not. *shrugs*   Just my morning-coffee-wool-gathering.  :)

Edited by Amadee
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On 10/22/2019 at 8:09 AM, Retrograde said:

The new servers will be Steam only because we wish to keep them seperated at least for the foreseeable future.

The existing Wurm players are not the target of the servers on Steam, while many may try it out, our focus is on a new market of players, with the current Wurm servers continuing, along with all updates and features.

 

I just came back on this thread to post my decision. I'm going to stay on the existing Wurm servers no matter what happens. I'm already invested into three characters and well established on Xanadu. I'm not going to worry about people selling accounts, the current state of trade chat and the markets, etc. I'm just going to stay focused on having fun in the best way I know possible and that is to continue doing what I'm doing despite all the bickering, politics, etc. I've realized that all this is doing is causing me stress and that's not why I come here to play the game. Therefore, I'm dispensing with all of it, I just don't care anymore. All I care about is that the game servers keep running and I can continue playing. Period. I could care less about the Steam version, state of PVP, etc. I just want to have fun so that's what I'm going to do. Perhaps others will come to the same realization. I went down the rabbit hole for a while in this thread but now I digress. I'm done with this discussion.

 

Now that I understand that the company simply wishes to have multiple revenue streams with different target audiences, it doesn't bother me. In fact, it basically means one thing. I'm going to stick with my existing characters on the existing servers and ignore Steam and WU altogether because they don't apply to me. In fact, I think the restriction Steam may have on "multiboxing" will attract certain people to WO. People who want more freedom and less restrictions. Perhaps it will be a better way to bring players into WO but time will tell. WU didn't live up to that expectation but at least it provided a "cash injection" so to speak I guess. The dev team will have to figure out how to manage WO, Steam and WU so that it doesn't become too overbearing on existing staff resources (i.e., developers, etc.). I like the fact that the current Wurm servers are continuing along with all updates and features. It shows we're not *losing anything*.

 

Edited by Neville
Updated based on current information and thoughts.
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1 hour ago, Milkdrop said:

Either people catch the grind bug and enjoy the pure skill grind with zero reasoning behind it on PvE or they don't and looking back, not many people did.

 

And to be entirely truthful, I'm losing my bug recently again. After 3 years of near nonstop playing. The severe lack of any reasonable and engaging PvE content has gnawed on me for a while now among other "points of friction". No, releasing a new server with a red-ish hue that makes us regrind everything doesn't count and the fact that this is what they think will bring anyone in had me seriously disillusioned about ever getting anything more than what Wurm currently is.

And as you correctly say, what it mostly is, is "not enough".

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12,108 hours played on Steam, and I have played in many capacities; Every Unlimited server is different and it may take a while to find your niche, and some people play on more than one server. The biggest part of playing is the community you build, If you want to be on a server and play alone just run the single player mode, so to me the online is all about the community of players. Somehow I don't see a division being better in the long run without offering something different in the game. Right now you have differences in Unlimited and Online, so why try another platform when the game is the same? But then again I am just a casual player.....

Edited by sailingsuzye
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12k+ hours played on Steam???! Thats about 500 real days spent in 4 years! And you call yourself a casual player? 

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I just keep grinding hoping that the main Wurm cluster will be connected to the steam cluster one day. But if that's not the case I'm going to loose a huge amount of motivation to play Wurm, so confirmation on this would be nice. Instead of just getting "maybe"

Edited by Wiolo
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41 minutes ago, Wiolo said:

I just keep grinding hoping that the main Wurm cluster will be connected to the steam cluster one day. But if that's not the case I'm going to loose a huge amount of motivation to play Wurm, so confirmation on this would be nice. Instead of just getting "maybe"

It's kind of impossible for them to give a concrete answer I imagine. If the Steam players end up being totally terrible, I'm sure we'd benefit more by having them contained and there never being a connection made.

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"The upkeep will last approximately 300 days, 14 hours and 46 minutes more."

Welp, time to wait out this storm and see where it ends up.

 

If things look better, could someone PM me?

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22 minutes ago, Etherdrifter said:

"The upkeep will last approximately 300 days, 14 hours and 46 minutes more."

Welp, time to wait out this storm and see where it ends up.

 

If things look better, could someone PM me?

 

See you on steam.

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11 hours ago, Retrograde said:

The new servers will be Steam only because we wish to keep them seperated at least for the foreseeable future.

 

 

I'm sad that they are about to split the population and do Steam only servers.  It wouldn't be so bad if promised after 3-4 months they join Freedom with Steam server, but seems like that will not happen with "we wish to keep them separated at least for the foreseeable future" which in Wurm speak probably means years or indefinitely.

 

Ever since it was mentioned I've lost any last hope of excitement for Wurm going forward and don't log in anymore except to see how much money I can make selling out.  I see Freedom is mostly going to die off unless you like playing solo since all new players (and probably some old) will be on Steam servers.  I don't want to stick around if there's not going to be new players joining the Freedom servers which creates new conversations, new friends and new things to do with people.

 

The 4+ years of grinding I've put into my character means nothing anymore and don't want to spend months raising these skills all over again just to play with new people.  The months and months of grinding horses and sheep just to get Fight and Weapon Skills up to be good at PvP is wasted.  What about all the cool stuff I've collected that I'd want to show off to new people like the Indi model of Fang and Maze the Brothers spent a lot of time on putting together for everyone which gave a cool award.

 

Mostly you'll have experienced people join Steam servers and level up so fast and create a market where they will just make money from new players.

 

I also wish Jackal was more of a hunting server like it is now where the servers reset every 3-6 months, but you keep your current skills when you go there and back while still gaining special currency you can spend on Freedom servers instead of starting completely over each time.  Should have made the mobs harder to fight like it was at Rifts, but not have to start over again with skills.  Or could have made it like the Elevation reset where you keep your Freedom skills which transfers over, but have to recreate your gear and weapons on Jackal before you can go fight the Rift mobs.

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I will be staying on WO. I think they should stay separate forever. First thing we would lose is alts. losing alts also means a loss of revenue for Wurm. I know I would not play my toons one at a time so I would just drop to one and probably consolidate down to just one deed while I am at it. I agree that new players would want some nice fresh servers to play on. Lets keep in mind though that 6 months after the steam launch all those pristine untouched lands will be no more so the cycle will continue of people complaining about untouched lands.  There is one complaint that I cant wrap my head around is the people who keep wanting to consolidate servers. Why would you want to live on top of each other. I have no desire to have a lot of people in my local listening to emotes all day. You know all you server consolidators can get together and just plop your deeds on top of each other now and get the same results. 

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17 hours ago, Retrograde said:

The new servers will be Steam only because we wish to keep them seperated at least for the foreseeable future.

The existing Wurm players are not the target of the servers on Steam, while many may try it out, our focus is on a new market of players, with the current Wurm servers continuing, along with all updates and features.

Why to split playerbase more and more?

 

Create 4 different servers on Steam, with fresh maps:

- Fresh PVE - new accounts only

- Veteran PVE -  new accounts and possibility for existing WO player to transfer here

- Fresh PVP - new accounts only

- Veteran PVP - new accounts and possibility for existing WO player to transfer here

 

New Steam player, after character creation process, gonna get a warning, that if he choose veteran server, he would be playing alongside with stronger accounts.

 

Important thing. If Steam player, after some time decide that it is too hard for him, he will always have an option to transfer to fresh version of the server.

The same should be possible for Steam player that plays on fresh, and decide to try veteran.

 

In this way, you could keep most of the existing playerbase together with the new one.

Edited by Wilczan

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17 hours ago, Retrograde said:

The new servers will be Steam only because we wish to keep them seperated at least for the foreseeable future.

This does NOT answer my main question. Actually, i doesn't even make sense. How exactly Steam-only is needed for the separate servers? You already had two separate servers WITHOUT Steam in the past, namely Pristine and Release. Newer players might not be aware of that fact so they might believe your answer, but I am not. I have seen two separate servers years before Steam becomes a "necessity" all of a sudden. There is a reason you insist on Steam-only servers, and you don't want to tell people what that reason is. If you cannot answer a question (for whatever reason) at least do not dodge it with an "answer" that insults old-players' intelligence.

 

The existing Wurm players are not the target of the servers on Steam, while many may try it out, our focus is on a new market of players, with the current Wurm servers continuing, along with all updates and features.

Are you aware of the fact Freedom is dying a slow death? How exactly "the current Wurm servers continuing"? You want to introduce new servers while you already have SEVEN servers, all of them extremely under-populated, and then you come here claiming you are still "supporting" the existing servers. I am sorry but I don't believe you. The only "support" for Freedom I see it the same "support" Epic had: You see Freedom is dying and not only you do nothing to prevent it, but you also do whatever you can to accelerate its death process.

What you are doing is letting Freedom servers die so that you can get rid of them (and get rid of the cost of running them). Or maybe Steam demands new servers, and of course Steam wants them to be Steam-only servers. Or both. Or for some other reason; I don't really know why you do it, I am only guessing. What I DO know is that you are not telling us the truth.

 

You are probably going to delete this post. Freedom of speech was never respected in this forum, especially when you fool people by claiming Steam is needed for separate servers, while old players know this is NOT true.

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when they make a new separate server and you cant sell people boats anymore

CgldEYQU8AA2MPn.jpg

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8 minutes ago, Patreus said:

by claiming Steam is needed for separate servers

 

You have the causality completely reversed. Seperate servers are desired for Steam because they want to offer a fresh start on this platform, not vice versa. Path of Exile is a good example of a game that is steam-integrated but uses its own server infrastructure that is still reachable from their standalone client, your proposal that Steam would demand new and exclusive servers is not only unfounded but has demonstrable precedents that contradict the existence of this practice.

 

They're not offering a non-steam client that would connect to these servers because it's "not for the existing players", which was stated quite explicitly by Retrograde. Sure, veterans will go over anyway using Steam, but that's not the devs intention, so they don't cater to it by allowing the standalone client to connect (yet). It's pretty simple. Ineffective, as you correctly point out as we can already see people cashing out in preparation, but as out of touch their proceeding is (it usually is these days), it's pretty straightforward and doesn't warrant the wild conspiracy theories you throw around.

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