Samool

Full Steam Ahead

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12 minutes ago, wipeout said:

So ya on the surface steam looks like an evil drm money hungry global cooperation that never released half life 3 but behind the curtains they do care they do let people get away with a lot that the likes of origin and uplay will ban you for on the spot if you as much as dared do it

Yeah but they still haven't released half life 3

 

Or left 4 dead 3

 

Or Team Fortress 3

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21 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

Yeah but they still haven't released half life 3

 

Or left 4 dead 3

 

Or Team Fortress 3

Thats because they have a thing with 3's didnt you know?

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     Im a bit confused. Steam has its own server? Is It WU or WO? I understand from the opening post it may become part of WO but it is now WO but not connected to WO servers. Is it even out yet? Do I have to purchase WU and pay premiums to steam or WO. Just how does this steam work. Or is it just WU. It is not clear to me or in the steam descriptions.

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Okey dokey, then, let's go there.

 

On 10/22/2019 at 6:01 AM, Patreus said:

*snip*

 

Complete nonsense. Not to mention you failed to even bullet it properly.

(1) The "wilderness feel" you mention will last 2 weeks maximum. Why? because "new players can be destructive" (your own words). Newbies (and old players starting over) will make a mess in no time, with terraforms and "roads all over". *snip* On the contrary, a separate new server will cease to be wilderness very quickly, because you will have more people in less space, compared to the many, already empty, Freedom servers.

Flattened out, pre-terraformed land = wilderness feel... indeed.  And then you open a mine and it's full of old tunnel.

(2) "People like coastal. Good luck on an old server": Nonsense "argument" again; Xanadu itself was yet another server that was not needed (not to mention Xanadu's many problems). Existing servers are full of empty coastal spots, not only in Xanadu but also in all other servers; and it couldn't be otherwise because ALL servers are pathetically low-populated. So who exactly takes over the coastal spots? The tiny playerbase that could fit in one server only?

Check out (1)

(3) "Clear rock layer": yet another nonsense. Have a tour around Wurm, man. Go to Deliverance and tell me how much of wasteland you will find still standing. I can recall 5 or 6 deeds on west coast, the rest is no man's land, I can easily find a spot and set a mining colony if I wanted to. There are a few old mines, most of them collapsed, and the rest is free for the taking. Pristine is full of thick rock layer you can mine and create your dream underground land.

Because you know the land, have explored it for ages.  And "mining colony" =/= main deed for a new player.

(4) The old-versus-new-players "argument" you tried is just silly. New servers will be full of old players playing a fresh toon; those will have a clear HUGE advantage against newbies. So the exact same issues with perimeters and whatnot will happen. I saw it happening myself on Pristine, back when it was a new separate server.

They won't have you to deal with, great start.  And old players going in there know what they're getting into, that is a land of destructive newbies.

(5) About the "market" argument you mention: Yeah, sure, none of the veterans will play on new servers; not even one of them. It will be a pure newbie community, so newbies will "have a shred of a chance at a market spot before the veterans take over". Seriously man, are you THAT naive? *snip*
Your reading comprehension is about as advanced as your vocabulary.  "At least with a fresh server, the ones who catch on to mechanics faster will have a shred of a chance at a market spot before the veterans take over."

(6) The Steam arguments doesn't really deserve any answer. Let me just point out Quality of Life doesn't need any new server; they introduced "QoL" changes in the past; some "purists" didn't like it, and the dust settled in a matter of days.  

Once again, you were apparently frothing at the mouth too badly at this point to read and understand the statement before answering.  "QoL which would make loud purists shriek to the heavens can be applied without "ruining" OGWO.  Gives time to figure out how to handle that for if/when the merge finally happens."

(7) What you call "Wurm classic" is dying already, and new Steam separate servers will be the final nail on its coffin. If you can't see that you are blind. Steam is popular, despite the fact it sucks. Freedom servers will be even more deserted, forcing the remaining oldies to either quit playing, or moving to Steam servers - if they can stand the Steam crap, of course.  

If OGWO is dying, then why in hell would they use THAT as their model for the new endeavor?  To have it die again with the added bonus of Steam review death?  RMT-favoring, resistance to changes that would improve QoL, and having to cater to account-recyclers who would not see the status quo changing in favor of new players to keep their "market" are what killed it.  The new Steam servers could be tweaked around attracting and keeping new players instead of ancient accounts that dominate the markets over and over.

 

Furthermore, none of you addressed the fact new servers will be on Steam only. Let's say new separate servers are needed (they aren't, but let's say I agree with you). Even then, why exactly new servers must be on Steam only? New players could just join the new servers via Steam if they want; others could join the new servers without Steam. Simple, and not restricting.

TO SEE IF IT'S WORTH KEEPING THEM PERMANENTLY SEPARATED OR EVENTUALLY JOINING THEM DEPENDING ON HOW THINGS DEVELOP, OH DENSE ONE.

Steam itself is a DRM galore, not to mention the bugs. Nevertheless, I have no problem with it, as long I have the freedom not to use it.  You do have the freedom to not use it, stay on OGWO.

If you guys like DRM, enjoy Steam as much you like, provided others still have the option to stay away of it. But Steam-only servers, if they succeed, will kill Freedom servers thus killing the freedom to play without Steam. You want new separate servers so desperately? I checked, the beers in my freezer are still the same brand. It's a mistake but ok, go ahead and do it. Just NOT Steam-only servers. And don't tell me they need to be Steam servers for some technical reason, because Samool and Rolf already said they MIGHT connect them to the existing Freedom servers in the future, so it is possible to have a new separate cluster not depending on Steam from day one. They just don't want to do it; they want new servers to be Steam-only. I tried to guess why they insist on that in a previous post.

 

I can see why they want Wurm on Steam. Sadly, Wurm is dying, and they hope Steam might save it because it's popular. "More audience, more people joining, more money for the company, Wurm is saved". It's not that simple, though. The best Steam can do is to increase Wurm playerbase for a few months, probably 2 or 4 months maximum. Then playerbase will inevitably drop again, because the "honeymoon" is over. And the question is how much it will drop. What will keep people playing Wurm is the gameplay, not Steam. While disconnected from OGWO, tweaks like speeding things up could be added without "ruining" the original. Wurm is by nature a slow-paced game; I am perfectly fine with slow-paced gameplay, but most people aren't, thus you can never expect a huge playerbase. If I were to guess, I'd say Steam will not have a huge permanent change on Wurm playerbase. It will certainly increase the playerbase, but not too much in the long term. If that's enough to save Wurm, I don't know.

 

Besides, you're clearly desperate to get a shot at the new servers and are just throwing a tantrum because you don't like the conditions to do so.  Now I can't help but hope that if the merge does happen, it means all servers becoming Steam-only.

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11 hours ago, lowborn said:

     Im a bit confused. Steam has its own server? Is It WU or WO? I understand from the opening post it may become part of WO but it is now WO but not connected to WO servers. Is it even out yet? Do I have to purchase WU and pay premiums to steam or WO. Just how does this steam work. Or is it just WU. It is not clear to me or in the steam descriptions.

Its not released yet so far its  just suggestions of whats going to happen in the future

So in short

New steam only wurm online servers most likely ran alongside an ad campaign and front page steam store setting in hopes to attract a new crowd of players for a fresh new server that for a long period will be its own cluster
This new cluster will be created and launched after the ui overhaul has been completed
It will have nothing to do with WU at all

WU is on the back burner with no one wanting to spend much time on it and some staff going as far as to denounce it as them not caring about players who play WU only(reason being sales are down -.-)
 

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4 hours ago, wipeout said:

longside an ad campaign

 

lmao as if. They're dumping it into steam and hoping it will be found. Then throw up the hands in the air like "How could this not work?"

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3 hours ago, Flubb said:

 

lmao as if. They're dumping it into steam and hoping it will be found. Then throw up the hands in the air like "How could this not work?"

Every little bit helps. What would you have them do? Put hot air balloons above your town? Print it on Coca-Cola bottles. There are only so many of them.

What have you don't lately? Its your game too. Do you post good things on Facebook or twitter? If you like your community then you can do things for it.

Use your imagination. Get the word out in only ways you can imagine. Don't just build walls; build friends. 

Edited by lowborn
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35 minutes ago, lowborn said:

Do you post good things on Facebook or twitter? If you like your community then you can do thing for it.

 

Achievement unlocked: Killed Wurm Online by not tweeting about it.

 

On a more serious note.

What they should do? Any effort to get any word out at all. Which they have a remarkable track record not to do so. See Jackal. There's something in between "Nothing" and "over the top AAA marketing", so put some gasoline on that strawman and have a nice bonfire while I rant along.

What I've done lately? Thinking about quitting. And your weird guilt trip about how it's "my game, too", even though the gameplay has become stagnant and the community feels nonexistent as I'm not the first in my circles to quit, doesn't exactly help. So if anything, your dismissive and presumptious attitude is "building walls", while I'm merely pointing out shortcomings in the staffs operations which have been echoed by many players ad nauseum. I'm not here for life, only until the end of the year when my premium runs out and as things currently are, I'm not prone to renewing it any time soon, if ever. It's the developers responsibility to ensure player attraction and retention, not mine.

And do you really think my friends don't know what I've been up to here? Of course they do! They just won't have any of it, and are therefore dismissed as "it's not for them then, nothing needs to change here". Well, if that's the hill Wurm wants to die on, so be it. Don't tell me I need to be on the ship while it sinks, though.

Edited by Flubb
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1 hour ago, lowborn said:

Every little bit helps. What would you have them do? Put hot air balloons above your town? Print it on Coca-Cola bottles. There are only so many of them.

What have you don't lately? Its your game too. Do you post good things on Facebook or twitter? If you like your community then you can do things for it.

Use your imagination. Get the word out in only ways you can imagine. Don't just build walls; build friends. 

When previous ad runs have failed, the solution is for all the thousands of us left to tweet and facebook post about it when it's clear they're typically not the audience willing to try it.

Appreciate the message, but doesn't really work.

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As long content is not blocked from indexing... few keywords on the page.. could make things show up for somebody to find the game or events that are happening... basic stuff for anything on the internet... whatever you do.. if you want somebody to find it.. write about it somewhere... eventually somebody will find it.

Somewhere I mentioned already.. that it's really hard to find articles that wurm exists.. and offers sandbox, survival, etc experience.. persistent world with xx years so far, and so on... if you find an article somewhere.. it's stuff way back before bridges and half the content that have upgraded the game to what it is now, no new graphics, water, new wall types and so on.. you can mostly see the old graphics, which is cool if you like history, but doesn't show the current state and what a new player could get if it starts playing now.

 

It is not a bad idea to announce all events with a simple image or not.. but at least throw a few words every time a bit bigger event than restarting the servers is happening..

Twitter alone is perfect to announce server drops/restarts/maintenance/bringing servers back up - it's light and handles large amounts of incoming checks well(usually), this also lets your website or forum slack from receiving other traffic like.. players trying to figure wt.. is happening in these times, while they mostly just look for 'status' or when the servers are coming back.

 

As long we exclude top brands and stick to reasonable comparisons.. it will be easier to 'steal' a good practice that is actually useful.

 

43 minutes ago, Flubb said:

What they should do?

Jackal brought some people back, or pulled a significant amount in there. Conclusion? People care and are interested what CC have to offer, keep providing new content.. learn from mistakes, build up on things that work and have positive feedback, fix or ditch the not so accepted features/practices/etc..

 

What other seemed to make people move, challenge servers, all kinds of unique new items, skins., halloween events - bring more of that.. let people run around and keep themselves busy, if you have whales.. bring lootboxes if you must, analyze the player base.. see what works for most, or... what works for the company.. if the current player base isn't bringing enough to the table.. maybe something have to change to make the game more fun for bigger public.

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On 10/25/2019 at 11:47 AM, Flubb said:

 

Oh boy, what a treat to unpack.

It's unfounded conjecture. Created around a narrative, this one being that steam wants to take over the games it publishes completely.

Let's go to Google:

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=Conspiracy+theory+definition

Steam isn't exactly "covert" here, but you said it yourself that you cannot fathom why there'll be steam-only servers - there's your "unexplained event". Even though I explained it to you that it most likely is a simple business decision not to put that effort to it because it makes no sense to do so given their intentions. We also had Samool chime in about it

so there's a perfectly sensible reason from a project management perspective. It has also been implied that some changes for the Steam Version may be piloted there only. It's not that it wasn't explained - you just conventiently ignore any evidence contrary to your narrative (Which is ironic because you accuse others of dodging answering you).

 

Steam is certainly influential though, and I wouldn't put it past them to make that demand. However, we have yet to see any concrete evidence that they made this demand - making this essentially a belief.

No one can definitely prove the non-existence of anything, because if it genuinely didn't exist, there's no way to validate that one way or another. It could still be in some other private e-mail or document after all. You should look up "Burden of Proof" and educate yourself for a change, because your middle sentence is genuinely nutters if you think that's a reasonable demand to bring to the table.

 

But, oh wait, I pointed out Path of Exile already, and there's also Planetside 2, both of which are distributed via steam but actually have compatible standalone clients - just like it would be in this scenario. Are you surprised yet, or just cupping your hands on your eyes and ears still?

 

"It's too good to be true." is just a reflection of your subjective take on this, and it's obvious how strongly you project it into your arguments, in which you blatantly ignore any basic rules of rhetoric and even evidence given to you.

 

TL;DR: Saying "it's not a conspiracy theory until you prove to me that they aren't conspiring" doesn't make your claims any less of the exact thing it's being called. Quite the opposite.

 

Oh boy, what a treat to unpack. It's such a delicious treat I won't resist.

 

You used Google to find the definition of the term "conspiracy theory", and you grabbed that definition more or less like a a victorious flag for your cause. And guess what, that term was not even my point. That alone should be enough as an answer for your first paragraph, but I'll make it simpler for you: I just pointed out that Steam demanding Steam-only servers is a VERY possible scenario. Call it "conspiracy theory" or however you wish, but if you think Steam wouldn't want any game's servers accessible by Steam client ONLY, then you are too naive. And good luck trying to deny such a demand from Steam when your game is dying and you need Steam in an effort to survive.

But whether that "conspiracy theory" is true or not was not even my point. If you bothered to actually read what I was saying, it should be clear I don't really care if Steam demands Steam-only servers or if it is a developers' decision. What I do care is this: Steam-ONLY servers have no purpose, and it is the last thing they should do if they wanted to save Freedom servers (which, in case you didn't notice, are dying already).

 

Initially, the only answer I got was "the new servers will be Steam-only because we wish to keep them separated" - which is utterly ridiculous. Like I said already, they could have separate servers without Steam (they did it in the past), plus any veteran can join the new servers and the Steam-only crap won't stop them at all. Veterans can and WILL be there day one, taking over the market, milking the new players by selling stuff they made way faster than any newbie can possibly imagine. The net result will be exactly like what happened in Pristine and Release. The same cause leads to the same result. So the first answer I got as an explanation for Steam-ONLY is complete nonsense. You see that but you still defend that nonsense.

Later on, and only after I insisted to get an answer that would make any sense, I go this: "non-Steam client would likely require some larger changes to the Freedom cluster". Desperate to find an argument, you grabbed that and accepted it to the letter in order to easily conclude it is a "perfectly sensible reason" for Steam-only servers "from a project management perspective". Yes, I am sure some changes will be needed. But guess what, they did it in the past (a fact you conveniently ignore), and I doubt the existence of Steam client would make it harder now. Even if it would, Steam client with totally independent servers should be their first aim, or else bye-bye Freedom servers. Instead, "Quality of Life" is the new big thing, and the essential part is second. Now, "QoL" is another story, but a short comment on this is necessary: "QoL" is a new trendy term in gaming, essentially meaning dumb-down gameplay so that it will be easily digested by the "average Joe" who uses Steam; let's hope developers don't mean it that way, but the context makes me doubting.

 

But wait, there is more for you (because I don't think I will bother again, so you get it all now).

The most absolutely ridiculous part of your post is where you call Steam "certainly influential". That's an euphemism pushed to the extreme.

And you use Path of Exile and Planetside 2 as examples of games distributed via Steam "but have compatible standalone clients" (I won't look it up because I wasted quite some time already, so I'll take your word on that). First of all, those are completely different games; Path of Exile is not even an online game (it's single-player with extremely minimal mutliplayer interaction). And you use it as an example to prove what? That its distribution model can be compared with Wurm Online? Seriously? Second, I wonder how populated the independent servers for those two games are; but even if they have survived their independent servers while being on Steam, the fact TWO out of the countless Steam games managed to have such a distribution model doesn't mean it will happen with Wurm as well (especially when, let's face it, Wurm is dying). Furthermore, when I tried Path of Exile it was in late Beta version, it wasn't on Steam, it had a solid playerbase already, and it wasn't a dying game by any means. In other words, any negotiations with Steam would certainly be easier.

To summarize, even it those two games managed to have both Steam-only and independent servers, that proves nothing..But you don't care about such details; you conveniently take it as the most possible scenario, because it fits your belief Steam is angelically "influential".

 

The reason I wrote all that and didn't ignore you (as I do with another guy here) is because you can actually SEE the danger (in total contrast with that silly guy - I don't even remember his nickname). You are ready to defend a ridiculous argument saying "new servers are meant to be for new players, so we want them accessible by Steam client ONLY", despite the fact you can see Steam-only won't prevent old players to join. You know separate servers existed in the past without Steam, but you nooo, they will be a huge problem now, so that's a "perfectly sensible reason" for Steam-only.

Those were the only answers I got, and you defend them both, despite the fact you can actually see things. We both want Wurm to survive, I guess (and still being Wurm), so the irony you used was unnecessary; but you used it, which is why my answer above is a little bit ironic as well - you get what you give.

 

In any case, I doubt I will bother again, with you or anyone else ready to applaud and defend developers' decisions, blatantly attacking anyone who dares  to object. Such blind applauders are one of the main reasons I usually avoid posting in this Forum. I tried to point out some potential dangers in the changes ahead. The reason I posted here is because I am an old player, and I like this game; I don't want to see Freedom servers dying. Steam-ONLY servers lead straight to Freedom's death, so I had to speak. But frankly, I had enough already. Feel free to keep applauding as much as you like; it won't help the game to the slightest, but so be it.

As for me, I will return to my silence. I will just wait to see how Steam integration and "Quality of Life" goes, and will act accordingly. I'm really sorry to say that, but I have serious doubts it will will go well. I sincerely hope I'll be wrong.

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5 hours ago, lowborn said:

Every little bit helps. What would you have them do? Put hot air balloons above your town? Print it on Coca-Cola bottles. There are only so many of them.

What have you don't lately? Its your game too. Do you post good things on Facebook or twitter? If you like your community then you can do things for it.

Use your imagination. Get the word out in only ways you can imagine. Don't just build walls; build friends. 

 

Why not try MLM (multi-level-marketing)? WO already has a one level affiliate system, just make it multi level. MLM is the least expensive form of marketing, while also one of the most powerful, only thing is that it has a pretty bad reputation, so change the name to something else, just build on the concept. Keep a multi level structure of referrals in-game, you get a payout each time your referrals buy premium, or every time they buy silver. No need to pay in real money, doesn't cost CC anything, the entire marketing model would be payed with in-game currency

 

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25 minutes ago, Mordraug said:

On Steam AND standalone?   FFXIV.

Sure, of course, would be built into the game, making marketing part of the game itself. The only backside would be a slight inflation of the in-game economy, but as I've understood, it's pretty inflated as it is. For every silver sold, 10% is used for the referral system; 5% goes to the first in line, 2% to the second, then 1% goes to 3-5 in line. That means in real numbers, if you have 20 affiliates directly below and all of them buy one silver each, you'll get one silver too. If you have a referral, then that person will get 40 copper, and the one above 20 copper three steps up. By building a great tree of affiliates, marketing the game and keeping players active, you can base your entire game economy and premium on just marketing on your peer-to-peer network. Win-win situation for everyone at the cost of 10% inflation.

Edited by Tenniel

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20 hours ago, Mordraug said:

Okey dokey, then, let's go there.

 

 

Besides, you're clearly desperate to get a shot at the new servers and are just throwing a tantrum because you don't like the conditions to do so.  Now I can't help but hope that if the merge does happen, it means all servers becoming Steam-only.

You tried to give answers and you failed to even position all of them properly in my text. Where you actually managed to do that simple thing, the "answers" you gave deserve no further comments. I already spoke about all the "arguments" you tried here, but you are obviously unable to read them, due to a superego which is completely impotent to digest any objection. That being said, and given you are a smart-ass kid with such a big mouth ready to insult others, welcome to my ignore list. Oh, and I wish you luck to the Steam-only servers and the dumbed-down "QoL improvement" you want so desperately. The likes of you will be perfectly ok there.

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2 minutes ago, Patreus said:

*Snip*

 

Translation:  "I don't like Steam, refuse to use it, and anyone who says otherwise is a doodyhead"  XD 

 

Probably an antivaxxer too ^_^

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Could even build a level system, which unlocks certain things, such as when you have an affiliate tree of level 2 you unlock crafting of some vanity item, at level 3 crafting of another vanity item etc. Just set a number of rules defining what each level requires, say that level 1 requires that you have three active (premium) affiliates below you. Level 2 that each of them must have two active below. Level 3 requires two below them, and so forth. There are many different strategies and sets of rules in MLM, depending on what is interesting, wide trees or deep, or just the total of affiliates below.

Edited by Tenniel

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@Patreus

You can see that I can see the dangers, but still don't entertain the notion that perhaps my position is a bit more nuanced or more complex than the shallow interpretation of "applauding the devs". Which I have certainly not been in any mood for recently. Matter of fact, I don't care if the game dies at this point, I have one foot in the door already.

Perhaps it helps to understand if I say that I like to play devils advocate and not everything I try to make sense of is something I neccessarily condone or agree with myself. Because I can usually see both sides and try to mediate between them, as futile as a task this often is.

 

That's why I'm telling you why there can be different reasons for a steam-only server, saying "It may suit their intention, even though it's ultimately ineffective". I'm merely applying Occams Razor here and spitballing the idea that it need not neccessarily a steam-imposed requirement, throwign out possibilities - such as you claim to do. Your rhetoric didn't really let than on, but that's neither here nor there - we're both playing devil's advocate here, let's leave it at that.

 

I don't understand what you mean with "angelically influential" though, I think you have misunderstood what I was saying to the utmost degree. First, it's true that PoE and PS2 obviously came to Steam with greater leverage. They may have barterted for better conditions, and Wurm may get the shaft in this regard. This is why those examples are circumstantial evidence at best and need to be taken with a grain of salt, but that being the best we have, it makes one scenario more likely than the other. But it does prove that it's not a hard requirement. On the other hand, you make some implications about the low number of examples for this. The number of games that do have servers that work via steam and standalone being so low, however, also proves very little, as many games that are Steam only just seem to prefer Steam Works to do the heavy lifting for their networking. (By the way, in the named examples, there are no such things as "steam-only servers", that was exactly the point. They operate the exact same way that you propose Steam WO should, with a functioning standalone client. Perhaps you used "steam-only" as a misnomer here and we're getting into semantics.)

That being said, with the evidence being foggy either way but clearly indicating one scenario being more likely, I would absolutely be not surprised if Steam made that demand. Literally said "I wouldn't put it past them to make that demand." I like Steam, I like their service, but I won't put my hands in the fire for everyone negotiating on their behalf to do so in the best of faith, because Steam also had its share of oopsies. When I said "certainly influential", I actually conceded the point to you that they may leverage their position over Wurm to give them the short straw where Path of Exile or Planetside 2 got away better.

Emphasis on being "they may". A notion worth entertaining, but due to lack of any concrete or even circumstantial evidence, not one to defend and cling to as vehemently as you do, at least in my opinion.

I genuinely don't understand what made this wording the "most ridiculous part of my post", unless there was a severe communication failure and the point didn't come across at all.

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I cant see steam wurm working if they have WU already .

Goto steam and nowere on the list do I see WU unless I do a detailed search for game style and even then ..

 I am starting to think that maybe with some of the old gang gone who programed WO that new ones have no expertise in adding anything else or know how ..

 

It happens , look how long it took to add  multi  story buildings and bridges ...

Its hard to unravel a ball of wool and not loose parts from being cut out and have it still the same .

 

They need to stick to WO and WU and use the assets the new owner have to advertise , not steam ...

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Just ranting, I'm bored, but would like to see this game succeed.

 

The biggest issue I've always had with Wurm Online is the direction of the game almost never focuses on community and more on single player.  There's no little things that keeps multiple people stay engaged in the game together.  The only sponsored community thing Wurm Online has had is yearly Impalongs which I think is great.  The Rifts are the only other thing that is recent that keeps people engaged which I think was a good idea, but that's become like a group of the same 10 people now.

 

Killing uniques I don't really put in this category since most of the time you just have a bunch of alts sitting around waiting for rewards from the kill.

 

Sermon groups are just people AFK in a room with nothing else really to do and is usually an alt you leave in the background window.

 

Then there was the rare things like the huge Deed Maze the brothers spent a lot of work on that lasted about a month, but met some new people that I continued to talk to and played in game with after that was done.

 

IMO, PvP has been the only constant form of community and excitement in Wurm Online, but that changes along with player drama and lack of new players to form new PMK's with, also game breaking bugs.  So once you know everyone and been around or you're no longer welcomed and stuck with the current player base then that dies off for some people.  PvP crowd seem the most passionate about this game IMO regardless of the player base in the entire game.  Elevation reset made me upset from player's mentality of still not wanting to lose gear from going into fights all the time taking chances.  That's not 100% WO's problem though, so I understand it I guess.  Not like everyone likes sitting in front of a forge to play a video game.

 

Always did hope they added mini games you can carry around or set on a table like I've posted in the past (chess, checkers, backgammon, dice, others).  It's something to keep constant attention going on even though it's simple when working in a mine together pressing ONE KEY over and over again.  Worked well with Ultima Online when I played waaaaaay long time ago.  I'd log in just to challenge someone at a game we scheduled in game rooms we made on our tiny house property.  Public auctions were a lot of fun too in UO which brought people working together.  Simple and cheesy, but hey..something else to do while in game.

 

All in all I see Steam further making this a single player game further splitting everyone up.  If it wasn't for the guys that took me in at the beginning when I started years ago that were more advanced than me, but showed me the ropes I wouldn't be playing this game still.......well kind of not playing anymore past couple months.

Edited by nicedreams
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Steam takes 30% of the profits.. from what I heard.. idk if that includes monthly sub charges, while epic games have a thing to drop down to 12%, making things look way better for publisher/devs or customers, anybody affected by the price in that line.

 

Are there any plans to release the game on other platforms besides steam?

 

As for advertising.. sandbox isn't for everybody.. having banners waved around.. don't think it will work well.. having more articles and having the game listed around the web more should do better.. maybe not in quick matter like ad-campaign.. but in long term should bring a bit more of the right people around, compared to an ad bringing somebody registering and trying the game just to find that it's not what it looked for.. if the player simply isn't that much loving the sandbox/building/exploring/etc concepts.

 

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4 hours ago, Flubb said:

@Patreus

You can see that I can see the dangers, but still don't entertain the notion that perhaps my position is a bit more nuanced or more complex than the shallow interpretation of "applauding the devs". Which I have certainly not been in any mood for recently. Matter of fact, I don't care if the game dies at this point, I have one foot in the door already.

Perhaps it helps to understand if I say that I like to play devils advocate and not everything I try to make sense of is something I neccessarily condone or agree with myself. Because I can usually see both sides and try to mediate between them, as futile as a task this often is.

 

[ and the rest of Flubb's post, which is quite interesting, but I won't copy it here to save space ]

You are indeed a special case, and I knew that already because (a) you can see things, and (b) you use a sophisticated language. Both are far from what I would expect from the typical "blind applauder"; they are unable to see anything other than what they are told (which they defend fanatically, using very poor language, full of slang and insults). So yes, your profile is not that of typical applauder; if it were, you would never see this because I wouldn't bother.

You must admit, that your "obsession" to play the devil's advocate, however sophisticated it might be, it goes too far, and can lead to misunderstandings - to an extent. The unnecessary irony didn't help either. But in the end, I guess there is more to be told than the diplomatic "we agree that we disagree". You can see the danger I am worried about, but you reaction is... peculiar (for lack of better term). Since you mentioned Occam's Razor, I think applying it in this case would mean what I tried to explain in previous posts (and won't repeat here). You probably can see that as well. So yes, there is more to be told than the typical diplomatic way to and a dispute.

You say you like Steam, you like "their service" - and that's ok, your comments can still help in these dire times for Wurm, because you can see Steam integration is not without dangers. Unfortunately, that's not the case for many people posting here.

 

Wurm is dying, and I am not happy about that; It is a game I liked right away once I tried it, and played for several years since then. The playerbase was never huge, but today it is really small compared to even what it used to be. There is no doubt action should be taken immediately. In gaming, the usual "action" taken is such cases is "stremlining" or "QoL improvements", essentially meaning "dumb it down, make it stupid, and put it on Steam". Personally, I would be more than happy to see Wurm Online on GoG instead of Steam. But as long all servers remain independent to Steam client, I don't really mind. As long "Quality of Life improvements" doesn't mean dumb it down, I don't mind. But the changes ahead are not very promising; it's easy to take the wrong way, leading to "streamilned Wurm" (which won't be Wurm anymore), tied to Steam's chariot and dragged around. Someone had to say all that. More than one should say all that. I tried to do my part. If there are other people out there thinking the same way (and I know there are), now it is the right time to speak. The last thing Wurm needs right now is "yes-men".

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We aren't looking at streamlining wurm, and Steam does not have say over having Steam only servers, it's a decision that's in discussion by us and I'll be working on addressing the whys in depth, but a lot of it boils down to the impact on the existing servers if they are required to adapt to Steams ToS. 

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@PatreusOne man's passion may look like an obsession to another, no skin off my nose. But from my experience in forum banter and debates, miscommunication simply comes with the territory when two people with fundamentally different opinions, perceptions and biases that are ultimately projected on the opponents words, even when arguing in good or no faith at all, which I sometimes did. I may exacerbate these effects, but wether it goes to far is up to the goal. Your endgame is to point out detrimental possibilities, mine is to move a stagnant discussion forward, especially when you sounded like a broken record about your "steam taking over thesis" (which in return may make me sound all the same, though I tried to bring in new angles everytime). That may require things that go out of bounds what people would normally bother with. I know I'm a bit special there, and usually talk too much.*

 

I take you at your word that you consider it a "civic duty" of sorts, just like I do with calling out flawed arguments and sophistry that have a discussion run in circles. I dispensed with analysing your rhetoric not to "agree to disagree" neccessarily, but for the sake of brevity (and sanity). If there's something else to be said in parting, it's about aspects that are considered in our approaches, similar as they may be, because this one is a biggy to me: You take on the qualitative aspect of "possibility". "Steam is possibly pulling strings in the shadows" (Despite the CR Coord just outright denying that, but they're in kahoots anyway and these tin foil hats are rather fashionable.) Alright, it's possible. Maybe Buddha is secretly Gabe Newell and he simply retreated from the project management to be less inconspicuous while he absorbs his side squeeze into his main project. "But that's not very likely" you say. Correct. My angle is that beyond the qualitative aspect of bringing possibilities to the table that may have to be entertained, you also need to look at the quantitative aspect of "probability". This requires looking not at the proposed thesis alone, but at all surrounding arguments, circumstantial and concrete evidence that make it more or less plausible. If you're outright dismissing any of those for spurious reasons and repeat perihperally relevant and related incidents ad nauseum, just to reiterate why situation makes no sense to you after denying any argument or notion that would bring sense into it and continuing to make unfounded claims about shadowy operations, even I don't know how to proceed.

 

(Warning: Rant incoming with a change of topic.)

7 hours ago, Patreus said:

The last thing Wurm needs right now is "yes-men".

See, now we finally have something we can agree on.

Although "slurp-slurp" was pretty cringe. And I'd give the "yes-men" a bit more credit, as one of your detractors here has voiced their own gripes about a bird of a similar feather, the so called "Doctriners", so it's not exactly black and white.

Though the sentiment of "Wurm is fine, and everything is okay, nothing needs to change, change your ways or perish in this game (They seem to usually discount that by extention, the game itself may die for not changing)" is pretty real and pretty detrimental, too. This is not only completely cancerous to the community. (The "deed it or lose it" mentality has, peripherally, just pushed another player out of the game.) I also think that it makes the devs complacent to their ways, seeing no need to adapt in any way. If they even listen to us at all, and I'm gaining the impression this might be the one thing they willingly listen to. The cheering on.

Because the detractors and critics are so few here, they surely don't matter. Except I'm pretty sure that most critics just eventually pack up and leave, making it a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

I don't know if you have seen the gradual implosion of a player called Roccandil, who made...interesting...proposals to changing the game.

Reading the discussions and my disagreements with him, you may even think of me as a "yes-man" or a Doctriner, but despite him being kind of a ###### in his rhetoric and proposing very outlandish and radical changes that even I had to disagree, I have to say he was talking some solid points in terms of game design and gameplay experience, and I was probably one of the few who were at least sympathetic with his position. He had the fundamentals right, but drew outrageous conclusions. More often than not anyway. But that's often the issue, some party may propose a terrible solution to an otherwise very real and tangible problem, but because the solution is terrible, then the problem must not exist. I see that all too often even in "real debates". Or it's because he was rattling at core aspects of the game that was uncomfortable to people. Might even fall into your category of "streamlining into not Wurm" or "dumbing down".

But even without seeing eye to eye to him on his endgame, I think with him ultimately quitting over his gripes and the dismissive attitude he received from players over them, Wurm has yet again lost an opportunity to adapt in a sensible way to be more appealing without essentially scaring everyone off. Not because of him individually, but because of what he may have represented. But his visions, even if you only adapted them slightly, would have required change, and innovation is not in the devs vocabulary (anymore, as of late). Of course, this kind of innovation can cause loss of the current player base without attracting a new one and I was a staunch advocate of considering this possibility when proposing changes as he did, but reflecting on it, there may have been some milk-toast solution to at least slightly mix things up. Not so much that it cannot still be enjoyed by the same crowd as something similar enough to the Wurm they knew, but enough that it will please the silent critics to be content with the game, rather than eventually just quitting or not even trying it at all because "seriously? This is bull. I can do X in Y way better than here..."

Doesn't help that all sorts of news is kept in its own little bubble here, too. The game is suffocating itself in a complacent development team and an elitist community. A real shame.

Perhaps, if the Steam version will be wholly separate anyway (or a modified standalone client is released for it), the team may pick the opportunity up to really innovate on the fundamentals of the game, actually listening to player feedback as the Steam playerbase grows. This may lead to the clusters never merging, but if they went with this route, veterans may not go there for the changes that may come to "the REAL wurm experience".

A man's allowed to dream, ain't he.

 

*Though the only cases were I'm outright told so are very few incidents of people losing romantic interest in me, who were then too butthurt to entertain anything else coming from me. The last -and second- case of that was a pansexual weeb who was unironically trying to shame me for being heterosexual "in these times". I've reached Peak2019 and I can safely let the year end in a bamboozled daze after that.

Edited by Flubb

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18 hours ago, Retrograde said:

We aren't looking at streamlining wurm, and Steam does not have say over having Steam only servers, it's a decision that's in discussion by us and I'll be working on addressing the whys in depth, but a lot of it boils down to the impact on the existing servers if they are required to adapt to Steams ToS. 

 

Such as all the slimy... errr. shiny silver sellers not being able to do RMT on Steam. All of a sudden all the people in the existing servers would not be able to sell those extra silvers for cash. And how then would they fuel their drug and alcohol fueled rants here on the forums? ;) Be careful what you wish for people, you just might get it.

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