Samool

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30 minutes ago, Flubb said:

They're not offering a non-steam client that would connect to these servers because it's "not for the existing players", which was stated quite explicitly by Retrograde. Sure, veterans will go over anyway using Steam, but that's not the devs intention, so they don't cater to it by allowing the standalone client to connect (yet). It's pretty simple. Ineffective, as you correctly point out as we can already see people cashing out in preparation, but as out of touch their proceeding is (it usually is these days), it's pretty straightforward and doesn't warrant the wild conspiracy theories you throw around.

Let me get is straight: according to that "logic" they want Steam-only new servers because they want them to be "not for the existing players". You admit veterans will go there anyway using Steam but "that's not the devs intention", they want new players only, so "they don't cater it" by making new servers Steam-only. Seriously, does that make sense to you? It's like saying "don't shoot the pianist, we don't cater it" while the veteran gunslinger is ready to shoot and there is no way to stop him by "not catering it".

Absolutely nothing stops veterans to go to new separate servers, and Steam-only cannot and will not prevent it. Where is the goddamn need for Steam-only then? The same experiment was done years ago with Pristine and Release both being separate servers, and they were flooded by veterans from day one, quickly taking over the market and everything. New players had absolutely no chance to make the server anything different than the others. Veterans knew how to level up their fresh alt way faster than newbies and had complete control of the market, and all strategic spots. How exactly this is not going to happen if the new servers are Steam only?

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36 minutes ago, Patreus said:

Seriously, does that make sense to you?

 

Yep. I disagree that it's feasible or effective but I can see their reasoning. Why would they bother to open the standalone client up to the new server if they don't want old players to migrate? They can't stop them, but they don't have to make it deliberately easier contrary to what they set out to do, either.

 

Riddle me this: They want to piggyback off the exposure on Steam to attract new players, who by definition will have it anyway. Who would they open the standalone client up for in this scenario to join the new cluster, if not veterans, who they explicitly said they don't neccessarily want there? That'd be a mixed message that truly makes no sense.

 

My original objection is to your "guessing around", not to defend the practices that are subject to said conspiracie theories. Loosen up your tin foil hat a bit and don't overthink it, they're actually quite honest, just appearantly not verbose enough for you to understand the writing on the wall. You're simply left in a niche position where you'll be left behind in their great push forward, it's as simple as that. Just like everyone else who may or may not find themselves on a dying cluster not willing to restart either, wether we have a Steam account or not.

Edited by Flubb

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We are not 100% ruling out new servers being accessible by the non-Steam client at this point, but that would likely require some larger changes to the Freedom cluster.

This will all become more clear towards the release and we'll share information as soon as it's certain - we're not keeping the details from you, we just aren't completely sure on it yet and we'd rather verify and confirm all the possibilities before announcing any more hypotheticals.

 

Right now we're focused on making the game generally more approachable (while keeping the Wurm spirit) and the Steam part is second after that, which is why the details may seem to come slowly, but we'll let you know about the specifics as soon as we can.

I realize all the vagueness can be frustrating, but keep in mind there's no decision we take without taking the current playerbase into account. While some changes are definitely aimed more at newer players, there's also a lot coming to Wurm that I think you'll all like, both veterans and newbies.

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Don't mind the guy, Samool.  You'll always have a small group of people who REFUSE to use evil Steam, because Steam steals your data, hijacks your soul, changes your beer brand, indoctrinates your children into the Flat Earth Society, and turns your pets against you.  And they'll make sure to make their voice loudly heard from Chrome/Chrome-based browsers while Googling stuff on a separate tab ^_^

 

@Patreus:  I'll simplify it for you.  Why Steam?  Because having your game on Steam is the equivalent of tens of thousands of dollars of advertisement by simply having it there.  If you want access to the new servers, install Steam.  Your beers won't be changed in the middle of the night and your pets will still love you.

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16 minutes ago, Mordraug said:

Don't mind the guy, Samool.  You'll always have a small group of people who REFUSE to use evil Steam, because Steam steals your data, hijacks your soul, changes your beer brand, indoctrinates your children into the Flat Earth Society, and turns your pets against you.  And they'll make sure to make their voice loudly heard from Chrome/Chrome-based browsers while Googling stuff on a separate tab ^_^

 

@Patreus:  I'll simplify it for you.  Why Steam?  Because having your game on Steam is the equivalent of tens of thousands of dollars of advertisement by simply having it there.  If you want access to the new servers, install Steam.  Your beers won't be changed in the middle of the night and your pets will still love you.

He is probably one of those people who thinks Windows 10 is a botnet, uses windows 7 or XP and that every torrent contains a virus 

 

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1 minute ago, Mordraug said:

You'll always have a small group of people who REFUSE to use evil Steam, because Steam steals your data, hijacks your soul, changes your beer brand, indoctrinates your children into the Flat Earth Society, and turns your pets against you.  And they'll make sure to make their voice loudly heard from Chrome/Chrome-based browsers while Googling stuff on a separate tab ^_^

You are obviously talented on talking nonsense. If you love Steam, that's perfectly fine by me; if you are a DRM-lover, I couldn't care less. It is your right to do it, and it is my goddamn right to refuse using your beloved Steam in order to play in any public server. As for the "funny" part about Chrome, Google etc, you have absolutely no idea if I use them or not, and I will not clarify that to you either.

Oh, and continue applauding every decision taken from the devs blindly; your slurp-slurp really helps the game grow.

 

1 minute ago, Mordraug said:

@Patreus:  I'll simplify it for you.  Why Steam?  Because having your game on Steam is the equivalent of tens of thousands of dollars of advertisement by simply having it there.  If you want access to the new servers, install Steam.  Your beers won't be changed in the middle of the night and your pets will still love you.

I'll simplify it for you: You can have Steam and still have new servers, separate or not, accessible both by Steam AND without Steam. You will have the same Steam advertisement, and more player freedom to log in however they please. What part you don't understand? I strongly recommend you try to use your minds; your beers won't be changed in the middle of the night and your pets will still love you.

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7 minutes ago, nitram20 said:

He is probably one of those people who thinks Windows 10 is a botnet, uses windows 7 or XP and that every torrent contains a virus

 

You are probably one of those people who think Windows 10 is NOT a botnet, and every torrent you download somewhere on the Internet is safe. You have my condolences.

May I ask though, how is this connected to the topic? If you have something to say concerning Steam-ONLY servers, say it, and try to have arguments that make sense. Other than that, what I do or not do is my business, you can only guess nonsense about it, plus it has nothing to do with the topic. If you have nothing to say about the game and its Steam integration, you are off-topic and you better remain silent.

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"Slurp-slurp"?  XD

 

And thus endeth any attempt to take thee seriously.

 

Back on topic:

I strongly recommend hand-sculpting those Steam maps (And/or having a community contest.  There are different tools to edit heightmaps and some pretty glorious stuff can be made before seeding them with mapgen.  If said contest were held I'd gladly share a few tricks learned the hard way there to get cool stuff like mixed forests that feel natural).

 

Reason to hand sculpt the maps:  More coast, demand will be massive and rather key to player retention.  Ditto on islands, but also proper valleys and hidden glens to cater to the smaller but still existent amount of hermits and inlanders.  Also mountain paths to reach the tops of SOME (not all!) peaks.  The new maps have to outright SHINE to be successful.  Think I still got one buried in old backups that I'm particularly proud of, inde-sized one.  There also has to be a mix of smoothed and roughed out areas, too much of either a boring or frustrating map doth make.

 

On that note, PvP maps should have a ***relative*** "symmetry" and intentional choke points if you want some form of strategy to matter (and would also be conductive to developing new forms of gameplay).  No offense, dev team, but tap into the community brain pool for those.  We're better at map making that Code Club =P 

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8 hours ago, Flubb said:

 

You have the causality completely reversed. Seperate servers are desired for Steam because they want to offer a fresh start on this platform, not vice versa. Path of Exile is a good example of a game that is steam-integrated but uses its own server infrastructure that is still reachable from their standalone client, your proposal that Steam would demand new and exclusive servers is not only unfounded but has demonstrable precedents that contradict the existence of this practice.

 

They're not offering a non-steam client that would connect to these servers because it's "not for the existing players", which was stated quite explicitly by Retrograde. Sure, veterans will go over anyway using Steam, but that's not the devs intention, so they don't cater to it by allowing the standalone client to connect (yet). It's pretty simple. Ineffective, as you correctly point out as we can already see people cashing out in preparation, but as out of touch their proceeding is (it usually is these days), it's pretty straightforward and doesn't warrant the wild conspiracy theories you throw around.

i ll laught so bad if they regret and didnt launch anything or retro get fired, what happen first. and how forget the QoL means make things easier! steam server will get some population at start when people realize the grinding time will leave quickly and propably will get small population than smaller wo servers but higher than epic

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Easy start with f2p "water testers" for a bit at least... with new maps and no roads or guard towers... it will be a pain for complete new players to survive for long.... they'll eventually figure it.. and share tips how to remain alive.. rest is up to them.. what they'll want to try and do for few days/weeks/months trying the game. We'll all see what % of that turns into usual prems.

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20 hours ago, Madnath said:

It's kind of impossible for them to give a concrete answer I imagine. If the Steam players end up being totally terrible, I'm sure we'd benefit more by having them contained and there never being a connection made.

Good point! thanks dude.

Edited by Wiolo

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10 hours ago, nitram20 said:

He is probably one of those people who thinks Windows 10 is a botnet, uses windows 7 or XP and that every torrent contains a virus 

 

 

No, that is ME actually  😛

 

Though I did begrudgingly migrate to Steam "kicking and screaming the entire way" (Wurm Unlimited ended up being the carrot I could not resist)

 

I still won't touch Windows 10.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Brash_Endeavors said:

No, that is ME actually  😛

Though I did begrudgingly migrate to Steam "kicking and screaming the entire way" (Wurm Unlimited ended up being the carrot I could not resist)

I still won't touch Windows 10.

You'll eventually upgrade to WX and dx12.. one day.. I "curse you"(not like there's other option to play dx12 games.. well.. you could 'upgrade' to being a console peasant)

Over all... when you meet the need to try something with such requirement.. it's not that big of a deal or change.. unless you liked UI and UX when they were making sense... WX sucks in that regard, copied a bit of the odd vista bullsh with menus, lets hope next one turns out to be the new "7" making everybody happy.

On the other side... didn't 7 die in terms of support.. if not.. it's close I think... new games etc.. should soon require new os for driver upgrades, have that in mind.

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Win 7 has just about 90 days of support left.  You can always run decrapify or other scripts on Win 10 to knock out cortana / most of the telemetry. 

 

Alternatively, LTSB/LTSC 2019 offers a cleaner experience and a bit more control, at the cost of up to date driver support from GPU vendors. 

 

That being said, pretty much if you use your internet (at least in the states), your privacy is void anyhow. 

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And on the topic, I suppose we can be thankful the devs did not solicit epic games for some upfront revenue and the ability to maintain RMT.  If you want to talk about questionable DRM etc, keep in mind epic is partially owned by China's state owned tencent games. 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Finnn said:

lets hope next one turns out to be the new "7" making everybody happy.

 

yOU'RE mY oNLY hOPE oBIwAN

 

 

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I too hope for hand sculpted maps i still have a plan and deedplanner map accompanying it of a quite decently big area snuggled into a nice valley that i want to work on but never had the chance to do so yet

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The maps will be designed by ausimus with a mixture of random generation and refined by hand. Ausimus is responsible for the new elevation map, the test server maps and a lot of his work is available for Wu servers. 

 

Rest assured, it's in safe hands 

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Disseminating the positives (mostly) from the threads:

  • WO, Steam WO and WU are all separate revenue streams with different target audiences.
  • WO will remain on its current servers with all future features and updates intact.
  • Steam WO will attract new players and may have some restrictions (e.g., one character per account, etc.) that we don't have on vanilla WO servers.
  • Those on Steam WO who cannot live with those restrictions may be enticed to come to vanilla WO servers where there is more Freedom (e.g., multiple alts, multiboxing, etc.).
  • Steam WO provides an opportunity for implementing and testing new PVP features/servers separately BEFORE they are brought to vanilla WO servers. A testbed if you will.
  • WU sales are down and the challenge is to figure out how to manage it or abandon it going forward. Determine the financial benefit of continuing to support WU and make a decision.
  • Currently, all three (WO, Steam WO and WU) are separate revenue streams and they bring in more money collectively thereby increasing development potential overall going forward.
  • It's easy to get caught going down the rabbit hole on what-if scenarios, PVP and alleged broken promises, lack of support/updates for WU, etc. but dry your eyes and focus on the positives.

Overall, I plan to continue playing well into the forseeable future on the vanilla WO servers. If you're de-stressing, enjoying yourself, making bank, etc. then what more can you ask for?

 

It's a game. Just have fun!
 

Edited by Neville
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On 10/23/2019 at 12:12 PM, Samool said:

We are not 100% ruling out new servers being accessible by the non-Steam client at this point, but that would likely require some larger changes to the Freedom cluster.

This will all become more clear towards the release and we'll share information as soon as it's certain - we're not keeping the details from you, we just aren't completely sure on it yet and we'd rather verify and confirm all the possibilities before announcing any more hypotheticals.

I will keep that one, waiting to see how it will go. I still think though, that you should be 100% ruling out new servers being accessible by the Steam client ONLY. Making it Steam-only won't prevent any veteran to join using a fresh alt, and they will still have a clear huge advantage compared to the new players (the exact same thing happened in the past in Pristine and Release). The only thing Steam-only servers will do is to tie you in the back of the Steam chariot. Steam always tries to make any game they cover being dependent on them (even single, offline games); that's their job, actually. By opting to open Steam-only servers you offer them exactly what they want, which should not be what you want.

 

On 10/23/2019 at 2:13 PM, Mordraug said:

"Slurp-slurp"?  XD

And thus endeth any attempt to take thee seriously.

Yes, sturp-slurp. And you lost any chance to be taken seriously when one of your "arguments" advocating new servers was the "wilderness feel" - when we have seven extremely under-populated servers and the vast majority of the land is wilderness. I responded to all your silly "arguments", and of course you conveniently avoided attempting to give any answer, only kiddish irony. You have nothing to say, but you say it continuously.

Oh, and don't bother to answer anymore, I already had enough nonsense from you, and I won't bother reading more.

 

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22 hours ago, Neville said:

Disseminating the positives (mostly) from the threads:

  • WO, Steam WO and WU are all separate revenue streams with different target audiences.
  • WO will remain on its current servers with all future features and updates intact.
  • Steam WO will attract new players and may have some restrictions (e.g., one character per account, etc.) that we don't have on vanilla WO servers.
  • Those on Steam WO who cannot live with those restrictions may be enticed to come to vanilla WO servers where there is more Freedom (e.g., multiple alts, multiboxing, etc.).
  • Steam WO provides an opportunity for implementing and testing new PVP features/servers separately BEFORE they are brought to vanilla WO servers. A testbed if you will.
  • WU sales are down and the challenge is to figure out how to manage it or abandon it going forward. Determine the financial benefit of continuing to support WU and make a decision.
  • Currently, all three (WO, Steam WO and WU) are separate revenue streams and they bring in more money collectively thereby increasing development potential overall going forward.
  • It's easy to get caught going down the rabbit hole on what-if scenarios, PVP and alleged broken promises, lack of support/updates for WU, etc. but dry your eyes and focus on the positives.

Overall, I plan to continue playing well into the forseeable future on the vanilla WO servers. If you're de-stressing, enjoying yourself, making bank, etc. then what more can you ask for?

 

It's a game. Just have fun!

I wish I could agree, but it's too over-optimistic.

Why a "testbed" should be Steam-only? We already had a testing server for that, they could just make testing server more attractive. Where is the need of Steam-only server for that?

Furthermore, I doubt any new players starting from Steam will ever try "vanilla" WO, because for most of them Steam is all what they know. The opposite, however, will happen for sure; many will migrate to Steam-only servers to take over the market (because they CAN), or because Freedom is deserted.

It's not about "going down the rabbit hole on what-if scenario"; I just refuse to "focus on the positives" while I clearly see a huge negative here. Everybody knows what exactly Steam is, they like it or not: it's the definition of heavy DRM. And such a DRM demanding Steam-only servers is not conspiracy theory; in fact, I would be surprised if I had proof Steam did NOT demand Steam-only servers. It's just too good to be true.

 

"It's a game. Just have fun" - yes, that's exactly I want. But where is the fun when Freedom-servers are going straight to Epic's fate? Yes, Steam will potentially attract more players; I doubt that will make a huge difference in the long run, because Wurm is not a game for everyone (and that's good). Still, it is worth trying. But we already have excessive servers, and I don't see any positive on adding more - even worse when they want new servers accessible by Steam only.

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41 minutes ago, Patreus said:

And such a DRM demanding Steam-only servers is not conspiracy theory; in fact, I would be surprised if I had proof Steam did NOT demand Steam-only servers. It's just too good to be true.

 

Oh boy, what a treat to unpack.

It's unfounded conjecture. Created around a narrative, this one being that steam wants to take over the games it publishes completely.

Let's go to Google:

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=Conspiracy+theory+definition

Quote

a belief that some covert but influential organization is responsible for an unexplained event.

Steam isn't exactly "covert" here, but you said it yourself that you cannot fathom why there'll be steam-only servers - there's your "unexplained event". Even though I explained it to you that it most likely is a simple business decision not to put that effort to it because it makes no sense to do so given their intentions. We also had Samool chime in about it

On 10/23/2019 at 11:12 AM, Samool said:

but that would likely require some larger changes to the Freedom cluster.

so there's a perfectly sensible reason from a project management perspective. It has also been implied that some changes for the Steam Version may be piloted there only. It's not that it wasn't explained - you just conventiently ignore any evidence contrary to your narrative (Which is ironic because you accuse others of dodging answering you).

 

Steam is certainly influential though, and I wouldn't put it past them to make that demand. However, we have yet to see any concrete evidence that they made this demand - making this essentially a belief.

No one can definitely prove the non-existence of anything, because if it genuinely didn't exist, there's no way to validate that one way or another. It could still be in some other private e-mail or document after all. You should look up "Burden of Proof" and educate yourself for a change, because your middle sentence is genuinely nutters if you think that's a reasonable demand to bring to the table.

 

But, oh wait, I pointed out Path of Exile already, and there's also Planetside 2, both of which are distributed via steam but actually have compatible standalone clients - just like it would be in this scenario. Are you surprised yet, or just cupping your hands on your eyes and ears still?

 

"It's too good to be true." is just a reflection of your subjective take on this, and it's obvious how strongly you project it into your arguments, in which you blatantly ignore any basic rules of rhetoric and even evidence given to you.

 

TL;DR: Saying "it's not a conspiracy theory until you prove to me that they aren't conspiring" doesn't make your claims any less of the exact thing it's being called. Quite the opposite.

 

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1 hour ago, Flubb said:

 

Oh boy, what a treat to unpack. ..

Yes. And there is more than one counterexample on Steam. Take Ryzom, they have it both ways on the same server: You may subscribe over the company website, or purchase over your steam account. The game is the same though.

Edited by Ekcin

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4 hours ago, Patreus said:

I will keep that one, waiting to see how it will go. I still think though, that you should be 100% ruling out new servers being accessible by the Steam client ONLY. Making it Steam-only won't prevent any veteran to join using a fresh alt, and they will still have a clear huge advantage compared to the new players (the exact same thing happened in the past in Pristine and Release). The only thing Steam-only servers will do is to tie you in the back of the Steam chariot. Steam always tries to make any game they cover being dependent on them (even single, offline games); that's their job, actually. By opting to open Steam-only servers you offer them exactly what they want, which should not be what you want.

 

Yes, sturp-slurp. And you lost any chance to be taken seriously when one of your "arguments" advocating new servers was the "wilderness feel" - when we have seven extremely under-populated servers and the vast majority of the land is wilderness. I responded to all your silly "arguments", and of course you conveniently avoided attempting to give any answer, only kiddish irony. You have nothing to say, but you say it continuously.

Oh, and don't bother to answer anymore, I already had enough nonsense from you, and I won't bother reading more.

 

I can tell you dont really use steam and just hate steam as it employs an "evil drm" -.-

For singleplayer games 90% of the time its as easy as creating a file called steam_appid.txt and inside it adding the game's id(wurm unlimited is an example of this) and this will in most cases allow you to start not just 1 session of any game but multiple and quite a few games that allow lan play thus also allow you to play from 2 instances on 1 machine if you wanted to

Next to that there is a wide array of other stuff that is drop and play turning your steam client into nothing more then a fancy updater/library(most of these valve has said they allowed when asked by creators of said stuff and some that isnt so dont worry mods this is fine ❤️ )

So ya on the surface steam looks like an evil drm money hungry global cooperation that never released half life 3 but behind the curtains they do care they do let people get away with a lot that the likes of origin and uplay will ban you for on the spot if you as much as dared do it

The main reason is purely to hope to catch the people who browse steam's attention and get them sucked in in hopes a small group stick around(Small relative to steam player count) and i am sure that in time those servers will be connected up to stand alone versions that we have now

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