Rolf

Steam and new Product Manager

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Hang on Retro does that mean you're going to IP ban me right off the bat if I pay for premium on steam? I suppose Id rather know now rather than later when I've sunk a bunch of time and money into it lol.

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6 minutes ago, MightySheep said:

Hang on Retro does that mean you're going to IP ban me right off the bat if I pay for premium on steam? I suppose Id rather know now rather than later when I've sunk a bunch of time and money into it lol.

We intend on the same bans on wo carrying through to steam at this point, yes 

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Lol that's so funny. Here I am being like the biggest cheerleader for this steam release and now can't play because I got banned for macroing probably more than once years ago. I didn't even know I supposedly can't make new accounts until now. That's awkward.

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Can people STOP!!! derailing this topic about moderation and banning issues they have??

Previous posts about these subjects has been removed, since they weren't considered appropriate for this topic and now it happens again.

 

So please, stop the whining and crap and just stick what this topic is about, the chance in staff and having Steam servers in a nearby (soon (tm)?) future.

 

 

As to return to topic:

@Samool: Grats on the new job;
@Budda: Thanks for all the effort you put into the game for the past years;

As for the possible steam release: I do hope it'll bring more "life" to this game with loads of new players. I'll just wait and see what really happens, though.

 

Thorin :) 

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10 hours ago, Retrograde said:

We work very diligently with bans and I believe the biggest issue is some feeling posts being hidden is a major moderation action, when our moderation starts at warning points. If a post is hidden and a player keeps pushing it they will face the first actual moderation action, same as ingame chat, mute warns are just warnings, not full moderation actions, it's if the behaviour continues that we take action. 

 

As for bans, most of our bans are for macroing and other various clear rule violations, people who claim that they could be banned at any time for anything are completely wrong, and there is always a due course of appeal afterwards. 

Yes like those times people get banned for bashing bridges they did not bash because the staff did not even check who did it. Then when its found out they didn't bash it instead of reversing the wrongful ban its decided to find some other reason to keep the ban in place. Like the name of a deed which doesn't violate the rules in any way what so ever. A lot of people feel the whole being banned anytime thing is definitely a thing, especially when following incidents like the above they get banned because some other person in their kingdom abuses some "bug" (once again no proper investigation was done before hand, just ban handed out).

If you expect people to not feel that way... well I don't know what to tell you. Many do and will probably not stop feeling unsafe any time soon.

Also this is not me challenging moderation this is me bringing examples as to why people feel the way they do.

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10 hours ago, Retrograde said:

We work very diligently with bans and I believe the biggest issue is some feeling posts being hidden is a major moderation action, when our moderation starts at warning points. If a post is hidden and a player keeps pushing it they will face the first actual moderation action, same as ingame chat, mute warns are just warnings, not full moderation actions, it's if the behaviour continues that we take action. 

 

As for bans, most of our bans are for macroing and other various clear rule violations, people who claim that they could be banned at any time for anything are completely wrong, and there is always a due course of appeal afterwards. 



I really want to let this go i really do but i cant i have watched people get banned for being part of a group where 1 person did something wrong and the entire group was banned and left banned for days even those who where offline due to the "ban first investigate later" stance the wurm team has had multiple times over the years on multiple cases
I have watched friends just stop logging in 1 day only to find out ages later that they got banned for some of the most ridiculous stuff(the weirdest one was someone dropped a sign on a road on accident that had a curse word on it and they didnt realize they had dropped it) some where just straight up uncalled for and others should have deserved a warning(someone accidentally made a swastika during a terraforming project and it showed up on a map dump as a packed tile swastika)
I have watched people get banned for upsetting a person who knows a person who is best buddies with a gm(A long time ago oracle days)
I have watched people get banned over bridge changes on unused bridges
I have watched people get banned for being friends with dnifan and shangtsung or delamore around the times of their shenanigans
I have watched a person be banned for 14 days because of an conversation that turned into a heated argument because of a difference of opinion with a gm(no warning given no nothing at the time chat went silent)
There have been bans and mutes and what not for a LOT of stuff that does not break any rules that are stated as official wurm online rules some sure where pushing it at times others where accidental
I have watched a close friend be banned twice over the years(and several mutes) because he is a rough person he acts and talks rough its how he thinks and certain thin skinned gms and cms in the past could not take it but never once did he curse or do any personal attacks(as his last ban was apparently for after he upset a cm so much they had to go and cry in public about it after the ban)

There has been a lot of times where i myself have seen unfair bans happen over the years old and recent ones where the staff team as a whole messed up and messed up badly and what happened to the members who messed up time and time again? a light tick on the wrist and get told "its okay dont do it again" where as the players are left out of a service they paid for for the duration of those bans or partial duration even though they didnt do anything wrong


This is not a personal attack at any one gm this is me just straight up telling you that the gm team so far has done far from a stellar job when it comes to cases like this and there really does need to be more oversight and stricter punishments for those who do abuse that power and you guys are slowly working towards that so i hope that in the future stuff like this doesnt happen
Especially not once you are on steam as imagine a semi popular person gets to playing wurm outside of his usual schedule of things and gets banned unfairly and gets told "we wont make any changes nor review it" (like it used to be) he or she will most likely go to their following and spread word to avoid this game not due to the game itself but due to the staff behind it
You want to come across as fair and just and so far looking at the gm team's track record? That isnt the best a lot of unfair mutes and bans and straight up abuse of power has happened in the past from gms partaking in raids on player accounts after just recently helping a player that is their target to item spawning/bug abusing or bribery or any other kind of stuff that has happened in the last few years

You want wurm to be on steam you want wurm to do well there are 2 key things here 1 make the game more enjoyable for the current generation of gamer not the last(we are part of that last one) the current majority like a "grind" but not the wurm grind or as they call it "korean grinding mmo's"  people like grinds like wow(not classic a lot of people are already leaving that saying its to slow -.-) or 7dtd or grinding in gta aiming for owning everything and having 10 billion dollars things like that those insane grinds that take a long time wurm needs to appeal to that not in speed but usability no right click menu's no ancient out of game help wiki's(integrate it into helpful popup boxes when clicking a question mark or something) being able to play the game with minimal keybinds but being able to map keybinds in a visual way ingame properly

And 2 the staff needs to come across as caring and trusting and willing to go the extra mile to relief the annoyed customer of their tensions not provoke them with half truths or vague answers or rudeness or anything like that (A good example is a clarification on the skill system it took too long for us to hear a proper response to what it really was like and we still dont have the exact details on it but we know enough now where we can fill in the gaps(this still isnt good enough))
If you dont have a clear simple proper answer simply post up "This will be detailed in a post that will be made and posted up within 2 weeks time" if its a topic that a lot of people are talking about or a simple "I will get back to you on this when i have all the information" and then sticking to these times
You want people to be able to trust you not dislike or even hate you because you bring romance into play as to who gets what position or the general wurmian knowing that certain people get favorable treatment from the staff as they are great friends and such
If you are on your gm account(accounts really should be kept separate from the player like they tend to be in wow and other games no one knows what gm is who 99% of the time) keep it professional dont engage in random conversations unless it is because of a specific reason(rule breaking discussion of a topic that is new content and so on)

You are pushing for wurm online on steam you have 1 chance 1 chance to do it right 1 chance to show people who have never heard of wurm that the game is great and the staff are honest and caring and loving and will take the time to help you(enki is a great example of how to behave when dealing with tickets or random issues his responses to tickets are always enjoyable they show warmth and care and an understanding that frankly some other people just dont have seriously give him a raise already)

Make it count make wurm be a success and make it grow past what rolf ever has dreamed of making it be do that retro and i will come down and buy you an evening worth of drinks 

Make wurm great again do it for all of us who love this game so much that we ###### and moan and whine into the late hours of every night of every day crying our hearts out in frustration as we watch it slowly break and crumble put this game together make it grow make it last make what we all love and care about as amazing as it can be no matter how long it takes dont ruin it

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i'm personally glad they bann hackers , moders and afk macroers....

 

Not to say i haven't received a bann warning myself when i was verbally abusing a noob griefer who was ruining my gameplay.. 

 

but when I was asked to stop, I stopped

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Posted (edited)

It is depressing how the "they are banning a lot and very injustly" tales are spouted again and again. During the 1.75 years of my Wurm time all serious disciplinaries have been transparently reported. And it is plain unfair and demagogic to state

Quote

people get banned for being part of a group where 1 person did something wrong and the entire group was banned and left banned for days ..

where this incident has been communicated transparently, and all but the perpetrator were released and compensated (though I personally doubt their complete innocence and ignorance about the exploit at least somewhat). There was nothing to object about such staff conduct. The "victims" loudly complained again and again though, and even now the event is mispresented again.

 

Also, citing alleged and impossibly verifiable wrongdoings or exaggerations by admins over more than a decade is simply counterproductive and should be refrained from. Maybe, even most probably staff decisions have not always been perfect, especially not against an unruly crowd which made a sport out of ridiculing and aggressively attacking the staff as I could witness in the forums even just lately. Less ruthless conduct will certainly cause less strict and sometimes overly reactions.

 

For steam, it should be clear that disciplinaries and warnings against avatars or accounts (players) are not forgotten and forgiven when a new server or cluster starts. Those who received a ban for assaulting a staff member will certainly not be allowed to resub on servers maintained and developped by the same staff.

 

Edited by Ekcin
typo

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Current situation is that even developers doesn't know exactly how the game works and thats a huge issue, code is ancient and it needs updating. People complaining here are those who haven't got their opinions/wishes listened or simply just ignored are now complaining here because, this is where all the devs are atm.

 

Game policies/standards and code base needs to be updated to this day. Few dozen different coders have left their mark and now no one understand whats truly going on behind the scenes. Maybe when you hire people, make a contract which requires the coder to explain his work to the new guy or at least finish what he has started. I understand this game is ran by mostly volunteers which is also an issue if you want to succeed nowadays.

 

Maybe hire one or two active fresh fellas to rewrite wurm base game from scratch? make wurm 2.0? i mean, wurm has a lot of potential because of the terraforming is unique, but the game needs to be thought out clearly, what needs to be done and why.

Don't know how much game chest is ready to invest in wurm, but money does wonders and this game could be rekindled with proper amount of staff behind it with clear vision, but what i know right? Less is usually more, when its quality content.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Themystrix said:

Maybe hire one or two active fresh fellas to rewrite wurm base game from scratch? make wurm 2.0?

 

I think the real announcement I am looking to see is Wurm Online 2.0 has begun production

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Does this mean we need to buy wurm again or will we be just given a steam key. 

 

How will buying silver work, and I guess the means no account buying or selling as once you are connected through steam you can't sell your char?

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Loggy said:

Does this mean we need to buy wurm again or will we be just given a steam key. 

 

 

The client has always been free on all official servers, for Wurm Online and upcoming Steam-WO.

The only case where the client "cost" something was WU, because those were player-run servers. 

WU players can opt into the new Steam version "for free" because the client is free.

 

No one needs steam keys or "to buy wurm again".

 

 

Edited by Brash_Endeavors

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Retrograde said:

Macros have always been loss of account. 

 

That's stated in the game rules too:

Punishment: First offense - Permanent avatar ban.  Second offense - Loss of all avatars/accounts and permanent ip ban.
 - Penalties for macro abuse may be applied at any time pending GM review, even if you have discontinued abusing a macro at time of penalty.

 

So yes, loss of the account is the warning. 

make it less grindy and people will dont try macroing

Edited by tamat

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10 hours ago, tamat said:

make it less grindy and people will try macroing less

PLS don't make it less grindy and 4 or 5x exp.. it will ruin the game.. if people want to be instantly OP go play WU

 

if WO was like the new Jackal server i would have gotten bored 10 years ago

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2 hours ago, tamat said:

make it less grindy and people will dont try macroing

considering wu has plenty of macros and full fledged bots that can like terraform deeds and stuff i doubt that

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8 hours ago, Retrograde said:

We intend on the same bans on wo carrying through to steam at this point, yes 

You really think thats realistic? 

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1 minute ago, Olloch said:

You really think thats realistic? 

Yes, that is THE REALITY of this situation!

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4 hours ago, Themystrix said:

Current situation is that even developers doesn't know exactly how the game works and thats a huge issue, code is ancient and it needs updating. People complaining here are those who haven't got their opinions/wishes listened or simply just ignored are now complaining here because, this is where all the devs are atm.

 

Game policies/standards and code base needs to be updated to this day. Few dozen different coders have left their mark and now no one understand whats truly going on behind the scenes. Maybe when you hire people, make a contract which requires the coder to explain his work to the new guy or at least finish what he has started. I understand this game is ran by mostly volunteers which is also an issue if you want to succeed nowadays.

 

Maybe hire one or two active fresh fellas to rewrite wurm base game from scratch? make wurm 2.0? i mean, wurm has a lot of potential because of the terraforming is unique, but the game needs to be thought out clearly, what needs to be done and why.

Don't know how much game chest is ready to invest in wurm, but money does wonders and this game could be rekindled with proper amount of staff behind it with clear vision, but what i know right? Less is usually more, when its quality content.

 

 

Not sure you ever touched software that is alive for years in industry. It's not how it works buddy. Rewriting something might seems trivial and good on a paper but it rarely can justify investment and as a result you end up with crap software again that needs to be rewritten again :P

Rewritting something like Wurm that has evoloved for years in multiple coplicated and tangled layers from scratch is not an easy task and requires a lot of time and with continious updates to game it's imposible for so called wurm 2.0 to catch up.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, kochinac said:

Not sure you ever touched software that is alive for years in industry. It's not how it works buddy. Rewriting something might seems trivial and good on a paper but it rarely can justify investment and as a result you end up with crap software again that needs to be rewritten again :P

Rewritting something like Wurm that has evoloved for years in multiple coplicated and tangled layers from scratch is not an easy task and requires a lot of time and with continious updates to game it's imposible for so called wurm 2.0 to catch up.

My personal opinion is Wurm 2 is needed, wurm 1 is dated and old looking, the kids don't like that these day's, Only us old farts

 

EDIT _ I thought LIF:MMO might be wurm 2 but it turned out to be a pvp gank fest

Edited by LumpyGravy

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8 hours ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

considering wu has plenty of macros and full fledged bots that can like terraform deeds and stuff i doubt that

if all the wu server have the same ratio of exp/timer could compare it to wurm but they dont, there are wide range of ratios and bots could be on any independently of the ratio

 

10 hours ago, LumpyGravy said:

PLS don't make it less grindy and 4 or 5x exp.. it will ruin the game.. if people want to be instantly OP go play WU

keep it in x1exp/x1timers already ruining the game retention anyway, some changes are for good other not like fishing

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2 minutes ago, tamat said:

keep it in x1exp/x1timers already ruining the game retention anyway, some changes are for good other not like fishing

i do agree changes should be made, i just hope they dont dumb down wurm for the quick cash

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2 minutes ago, LumpyGravy said:

My personal opinion is Wurm 2 is needed, wurm 1 is dated and old looking, the kids don't like that these day's, Only us old farts

 

EDIT _ I thought LIF:MMO might be wurm 2 but it turned out to be a pvp gank fest

I'm not talking about some other(or the same company) making new game simmilar to Wurm, that's not Wurm 2.0

Wurm 2.0 in my eyes would be dev team stopping any updates, then planing and developing everything from scratch with same functionalities as Wurm has now but maybe in some other techology for the next 3 years, also retesting everything again and then replacing Wurm with it but with player accounts, deeds etc migration included. Which is never gonna happen(what is more vialable and we have now is a process that is granulary happening through course of time more or less currently, we don't have wurm 2.0 by now, we have wurm 10.0)

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Not sure why people rag on the moderation, GMs, and Devs here.

 

I am plenty crotchety and plenty critical. If you read my earlier dour posts, they still stand, clear as day just being a pessimistic grump does not beget their rage.  If you break rules, macro, or get personally nasty, well then. 

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You guys sure are good at creating problems for Retrograde.

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7 hours ago, kochinac said:

I'm not talking about some other(or the same company) making new game simmilar to Wurm, that's not Wurm 2.0

Wurm 2.0 in my eyes would be dev team stopping any updates, then planing and developing everything from scratch with same functionalities as Wurm has now but maybe in some other techology for the next 3 years, also retesting everything again and then replacing Wurm with it but with player accounts, deeds etc migration included. Which is never gonna happen(what is more vialable and we have now is a process that is granulary happening through course of time more or less currently, we don't have wurm 2.0 by now, we have wurm 10.0)

My statement it looks old and crappy still stands

 

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE WURM, but im over 50 years old.... the kids today wouldn't touch a game that looks like this at all

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