Rolf

Steam and new Product Manager

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2 hours ago, Tenniel said:

By creating a split with WU, that constructive relationship between WO and WU will end, at the cost of WO.

 

Trudat, would be sad but not unexpected if modders started to find ways to mask their code so that CC can't use it.  That aside, new mods would be for the old code, making them gradually harder and harder to include into WO's code.

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11 minutes ago, Mordraug said:

 

Trudat, would be sad but not unexpected if modders started to find ways to mask their code so that CC can't use it.  That aside, new mods would be for the old code, making them gradually harder and harder to include into WO's code.

I agree that such a code split is a wrong idea. So far there have been not few synergies between WU and WO, While it may be ok or at least defensible to withhold some changes to WO, this cutting off is stupid.

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On 10/15/2019 at 10:20 AM, nitram20 said:

WO is an MMO
People like you ruin the community aspect of the game and the economy by having massive amounts of alts and doing everything at the same time, not having to rely on other players

 

FYI... I sold two of my own priests before I bought these. Furthermore, I'm not using them to sell things (I only sell things on my main) so I don't see how I'm ruining the economy. I don't have massive amounts of alts. I have two. I don't do everything at the same time without relying on other players. If anything, I've bought a lot of things from other players and continue to do so. Perhaps in some cases, what you describe is an issue but it certainly doesn't apply to me or to "people" in general.

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On 10/15/2019 at 11:50 AM, Tenniel said:

That's where you're missing the point. You only see WU as another form (lesser/simpler) of WO. It isn't, it's another game entirely, based on the WO skill and crafting system. We don't have priests for example, on our server priests are removed and replaced by various types of spell casters, each type having its own set of very hard requirements to complete before becoming a spell caster, but instead the restrictions are much lower, so you don't need alts to play all kinds of priest alts, you can still have one fully playable character. The priest model is just a way for WO to squeeze more subscriptions from players, it's not needed on WU. We found it quite unrealistic with the priest restrictions, and instead looked at what would be realistic, and all real religions does have some form of restrictions, usually some form of food restrictions, such as not eating cow or pig, which isn't very interesting to mimic. So we looked at ancient polytheistic deities and picked a number of attributes, such as "goddess of love", "god of war" etc. and compiled a list of bonuses for each attribute and restricted actions matching the bonus, for example a war god has the bonus "Warrior" (added fighting skill gains and damage bonus), but being restricted to not duel ("kill or get killed, don't be a coward.") or offer peace ("war gods conquer and destroy, offering peace offends the god."). Each deity has about five attributes with bonuses and restrictions, and we have ten gods. The entire world and history is different, the economy and trading system is different, more or less everything has been rebuilt into another game; but still, the skill and crafting system remains the same, untouched.

 

So as you see, WO offers a static unchanging world, it's been the same system for 10+ years, and all changes are in the hands of the almighty dev team and their whims and wishes. WU offers the "unlimited" aspect, which means anything can happen, and will happen, it's all a matter of creativity and imagination. WO will never appeal to me or my peers, ever.

 

You need to look at what you wrote in your reply and compare that to what you wrote earlier because I noticed you contradicted yourself in various ways. That aside though, it's irrelevant to my current reply and there's no need to comment on that.

 

I don't think I'm missing anything. It's very simple. Rolf has already made the decision to move WO to Steam and the priority is to breathe life back into WO, obviously. Therefore, since "WU has become a competition against WO" and "WO will never appeal to" you or your "peers, ever" then it's also obvious that continuing WU is like flogging a dead horse that distracts from the main priority that is WO. Assuming WO makes more money than WU and/or has the potential to do so, then WU is a waste of time and resources in my opinion. Of course that is based on the aforementioned assumption on my part. Nonetheless, the bottom line is that this is a business and it has to make money.

 

Furthermore, I do feel that the devs listen to their customer needs/wants to a certain extent, within reason and prioritize what they can based on available resources. They devs have implemented several changes to enhance WO over the years so I don't see how it's been the same for 10+ years. Nothing they have done in recent years has had any negative impact on my personal fun in the game. If anything, it has enhanced it further, in fact to a great degree. Therefore, we can agree to disagree. I feel the devs should put all their time and effort into WO and you think the opposite. That's totally fine. I have nothing more to say about the subject. My heart is staying with WO 100%.

 

Edited by Neville
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Can we move the forum to a better system or something, I swear to god not having basic forum features from 14 years ago like automerge is really dreadful

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1 hour ago, Neville said:

They devs have implemented several changes to enhance WO over the years so I don't see how it's been the same for 10+ years.

You do realize that most of them changes came from WU modders right? If I remember correctly mot long after WU was released we started getting a lot of new QOL updates to old jobs and things.

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12 hours ago, Neville said:

You need to look at what you wrote in your reply and compare that to what you wrote earlier because I noticed you contradicted yourself in various ways. That aside though, it's irrelevant to my current reply and there's no need to comment on that.

You're very welcome to point those mentioned contradictions out, because I don't mind being wrong, in fact I find it's what makes me grow and develop as an individual, but I also like to know when I'm wrong so I can learn from it. However, you point one thing out, then take it back in the next sentence, I find that quite a bit contradictory in itself.

 

 

12 hours ago, Neville said:

I don't think I'm missing anything. It's very simple. Rolf has already made the decision to move WO to Steam and the priority is to breathe life back into WO, obviously. Therefore, since "WU has become a competition against WO" and "WO will never appeal to" you or your "peers, ever" then it's also obvious that continuing WU is like flogging a dead horse that distracts from the main priority that is WO. Assuming WO makes more money than WU and/or has the potential to do so, then WU is a waste of time and resources in my opinion. Of course that is based on the aforementioned assumption on my part. Nonetheless, the bottom line is that this is a business and it has to make money.

You're making a lot of assumptions here, and those are based on what? Do you have any real hard fact numbers? What is real, hard fact numbers though, is that one year subscription of WO equals 3.5 copies sold of WU (using the numbers that one month WO subscription cost 8€ and WU cost 28€). It also means that WO requires you to sell the game every month over and over to the same customer and keep the same customer stay active to promote that continuous sale, with WU you only have to sell the game once, and if the customer plays for two months or four years it doesn't matter, because a WU player doesn't cost CC anything no matter how much that one plays, in fact the more people play the more they will create a living game making it promote itself.

 

Also, there's not a limited number of possible customers, not really. For WO there is of course, there's only a limited number of people who accept that kind of deal: buy the game over and over every month. With WU, it's more a matter of reaching to the larger number of players and making them buy the game. But of course, having released an incomplete game it's a bit more difficult sell. The same people that have been playing Minecraft will recognise a similar game in WU, but not in WO. What has made Minecraft so popular is that you can mod it, you buy it and do whatever you like with it, it's a tool for creativity. WO has nothing of that, you're just locked into the WO thing, you're a consumer in WO. In WU however, you can be co-creator of the game, it's a completely different thing.

 

 

12 hours ago, Neville said:

Furthermore, I do feel that the devs listen to their customer needs/wants to a certain extent, within reason and prioritize what they can based on available resources. They devs have implemented several changes to enhance WO over the years so I don't see how it's been the same for 10+ years. Nothing they have done in recent years has had any negative impact on my personal fun in the game. If anything, it has enhanced it further, in fact to a great degree. Therefore, we can agree to disagree. I feel the devs should put all their time and effort into WO and you think the opposite. That's totally fine. I have nothing more to say about the subject.

Well, those available resources are in many ways the goodwill of WU modders. Mods aren't really that valuable actually, code is pretty useless without the coder. What is a valuable resource is competence. With WU, the competence of the modders has been a ready resource, the dev team itself consist mostly of a handpicked number of competent modders, and most of those actually work for free as I understand it. When the goodwill of the WU modders has gone sour, where do you think they will find new devs willing to work for free?

 

 

13 hours ago, Neville said:

My heart is staying with WO 100%.

As you said, it's only a business, heart doesn't come into it, because if it did, WU would be included.

 

 

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This WU campaigning is over the top, especially the "it's been the same system for 10+ years" is utter nonsense, so is claiming all changes since were due to merits of "the goodwill of WU modders". The dichotomy you are making up is unreasonable. There have been significant contributions of WO developers to WU, and WU has often been used as testing ground for WO, by devs as well as by players. That is what I mean with synergies, and that is why I criticize a decision (if it is final) to cut off WU from WO development.

 

But you are wrong here too: "As you said, it's only a business, heart doesn't come into it, because if it did, WU would be included."

 

Starting WU as a spinoff was a business decision too. And it certainly contributed a lot to CC revenue in the past. Yet WU is a one time sale per copy, as far as I know, and profit from new sales nowadays is certainly far below revenues from (shrinking) subs on WO. If WO would die, some WU servers may survive some time, maybe even long time, but not on a significant much less growing scale. If WO flourishes some players will be interested in WU.

 

And as to the heart, Neville is speaking of himself, as one of many WO players whose heart is staying with WO, with their characters, their deeds, alliances, and friends. So your objection was off topic. Noone denies that your heart is with WU, and noone criticizes that.

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44 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

This WU campaigning is over the top, especially the "it's been the same system for 10+ years" is utter nonsense, so is claiming all changes since were due to merits of "the goodwill of WU modders". The dichotomy you are making up is unreasonable. There have been significant contributions of WO developers to WU, and WU has often been used as testing ground for WO, by devs as well as by players. That is what I mean with synergies, and that is why I criticize a decision (if it is final) to cut off WU from WO development.

Surely I'm not saying it hasn't developed in ten years, and that nothing has happened in terms of added content, but still WO is the same world with the same kingdoms, the same system of religion, a few deities have been added. You can't take one sentence out of context and expect it to have the same meaning. I'm also not saying that WU hasn't had contributions from WO, from where do you make such an assumption? Using WU as a testing ground is also not very professional, is it?

 

 

50 minutes ago, Ekcin said:

But you are wrong here too: "As you said, it's only a business, heart doesn't come into it, because if it did, WU would be included."

 

Starting WU as a spinoff was a business decision too. And it certainly contributed a lot to CC revenue in the past. Yet WU is a one time sale per copy, as far as I know, and profit from new sales nowadays is certainly far below revenues from (shrinking) subs on WO. If WO would die, some WU servers may survive some time, maybe even long time, but not on a significant much less growing scale. If WO flourishes some players will be interested in WU.

 

And as to the heart, Neville is speaking of himself, as one of many WO players whose heart is staying with WO, with their characters, their deeds, alliances, and friends. So your objection was off topic. Noone denies that your heart is with WU, and noone criticizes that.

Apparently, WU players are not seen as people with feelings and hearts in their game as well, clearly it's only the hearts of WO players that matters. While WU players aren't enough good business to count, even though we also have characters, deeds, alliances and friends. When someone claim to have a heart, then my point is that a heart has empathy for more than just himself and his own, otherwise it's only business, so it's not off topic.

 

No, sorry, but WU won't die unless it's completely removed from Steam, in which case most WU players will move to other games instead. There are many other sandbox games with a greater momentum in development, for example, you can build far more advanced buildings in Conan Exiles, a game which is a one time price, and where you can run private servers and mod as you like. I've already invested a lot of time and heart into Wurm, but it's not the only game there is.

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9 hours ago, Tenniel said:

[...]

You're making a lot of assumptions here, and those are based on what? Do you have any real hard fact numbers? What is real, hard fact numbers though, is that one year subscription of WO equals 3.5 copies sold of WU (using the numbers that one month WO subscription cost 8€ and WU cost 28€). It also means that WO requires you to sell the game every month over and over to the same customer and keep the same customer stay active to promote that continuous sale, with WU you only have to sell the game once, and if the customer plays for two months or four years it doesn't matter, because a WU player doesn't cost CC anything no matter how much that one plays, in fact the more people play the more they will create a living game making it promote itself.

[...]

Maybe it is just me, but I cannot follow what you are trying to say.

 

as I understand you state, that for one year subscription WO 3.5 WU Units have to be sold. that I understand (based on the given numbers).

Then you say WU is solid business because you sell and dont have to care to keep the ppl invested.

As I understand exactly that is what CC is doing, is it not? because if they would provide new stuff the 'doesn't cost CC anything' would not be valid. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

As I see it, exactly thats what happening in the market as well. A lot of Publishers/developers pushing out one Product and move on to the next. Thats what they do.

Just because CC has to keep players invested for the abo in WO, they still work on WO. No Abo, no WO - WU would probably "long abandoned with almost noone caring" because it is the usual.

Now they care just because of the continous development happening in WO.

 

for me it looks almost like complaining about a Feature not present in the Original but in the next episode of the series. Ok, that is a bit over the top, I admit, but it has a slight touch of that.

(I dont want to put exact examples as it not the right place for that)

Maybe it was promised (like features in lots of other games too), ok, but thats just how the business works. To be honest, I dont think it is right but it is happening in a lot of games and most ppl. keep buying.

Edited by MrLighz
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1 hour ago, MrLighz said:

Maybe it is just me, but I cannot follow what you are trying to say.

No, I don't think you're alone in not following, because I get the feeling a few others are replying to other things than what I've actually said. Not really sure how to explain things more clearly though.

 

 

1 hour ago, MrLighz said:

as I understand you state, that for one year subscription WO 3.5 WU Units have to be sold. that I understand (based on the given numbers).

Then you say WU is solid business because you sell and dont have to care to keep the ppl invested.

As I understand exactly that is what CC is doing, is it not? because if they would provide new stuff the 'doesn't cost CC anything' would not be valid. Correct me if I am wrong.

Yes, actually the numbers are more like ~3.43, so slightly less, but anyway. And, yes, that is true, WU doesn't cost anything in maintenance of servers and such things. Server hosts are paying for all upkeep of WU, and we are generating all income CC are making from WU at no cost at all (for CC that is, it does cost the hosts quite a bit of course). Having a game on Steam is a one time cost of $100. If there were no privately funded servers, there would be no income from WU, because players would have nowhere to go, and they would stop buying the game. But of course, there will always be WU servers running as long as the game exists on Steam, just look at the server list, there are more servers than players running - I counted to about 200 active on the server list at the time of writing. CC couldn't possibly scale up to that if there suddenly would be a rush of hundreds of thousands of players, not that it's very likely the way it looks now, but hey: "In the first week of Conan Exiles's early access release on Steam, it sold over 320,000 copies." (Wikipedia). Who knows when there will be a rush of players with a bit of advertisement and some graphical makeup. Btw, guess what, if WU sold 320,000 copies, that would be the same amount of income that CC would make from 9,333 premium accounts for ten years - and Conan Exiles did that in one week, not ten years, one week. How many premium accounts are currently paying for WO? Would be interesting to know. And will they still be paying for premium in ten years, every month, since their hearts are staying with WO 100%?

 

 

1 hour ago, MrLighz said:

As I see it, exactly thats what happening in the market as well. A lot of Publishers/developers pushing out one Product and move on to the next. Thats what they do.

Just because CC has to keep players invested for the abo in WO, they still work on WO. No Abo, no WO - WU would probably "long abandoned with almost noone caring" because it is the usual.

Now they care just because of the continous development happening in WO.

Wouldn't make much difference, companies have to keep investing in their products or they will lose customers. The only real difference is that instead of selling the game to the same customers every month over and over, making a smaller number of players pay a vastly larger amount of money, with WU 3.5 times fewer sales have to be made and to new players all the time. So, the question is, is there a limited amount of players on the market? No, not really, Conan Exiles again sold one million copies in the first month. Funcom though is a company the market can trust to keep their promises, they have a long range of long lasting games. A company that just take the money and leave to other games, well, it won't keep the trust of the customers for long.

 

One million copies in one month, that's 40 million euro, it should last a bit of time I think. Besides, they have a business model that makes old player keep paying for the game, by releasing expansions. WU could do that I'm sure, if there were expansions worth paying for of course.

 

 

1 hour ago, MrLighz said:

for me it looks almost like complaining about a Feature not present in the Original but in the next episode of the series. Ok, that is a bit over the top, I admit, but it has a slight touch of that.

(I dont want to put exact examples as it not the right place for that)

Maybe it was promised (like features in lots of other games too), ok, but thats just how the business works. To be honest, I dont think it is right but it is happening in a lot of games and most ppl. keep buying.

Maybe it's just me, but I can't follow what you are trying to say.

Edited by Tenniel
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